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02-12-2021, 10:37 AM
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#81
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Feb 2017
Posts: 4,812
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the feature by is self is amazingly useful, but the combination of it with existing freeze system at least for someone like me that needs portability (not huge CPU workstation - a good old Macbook Pro 13 mid 2012) and ability to freeze them in one go is even: maximum clean, efficiently and user friendly way for managing complex layers of 1 instrument.
On top of if the Post chain can be ignored when freezing and keep this chain after freezing, so that the hungry plugins are rendered but keep per example equalizer and compressor after freezing: is nirvana.
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Last edited by deeb; 02-12-2021 at 10:45 AM.
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02-12-2021, 03:56 PM
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#82
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 3,294
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Quote:
Originally Posted by operator
Definitly. Same opinion over here. Workflow related Features are always a win for almost all users (even the ones who are a little bit conservative and primarly dislike unknown and new concepts).
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we all agreed on that I guess.
as a mixing engineer and producer, it works for both sides - workflow is the key.
we need some good mockups and examples here to share with the devs
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02-12-2021, 04:15 PM
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#83
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 3,294
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instead of using 3 tracks - here is a nice chain idea that should be done with 1 track for best results and clean project.
not the best but something like this could be a very nice to have built in reaper.
*so far I think that FL-Patcher is the the best container anyway.
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02-12-2021, 05:16 PM
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#84
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Nov 2019
Location: Austria, near Lake Constance
Posts: 453
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Reflected
*so far I think that FL-Patcher is the the best container anyway.
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Learning Psychology says: --> if you have 2 seperate locations where you are creating/listing FX-structures the "split-attention effect" could occure (google it) and cognitive load starts to rise. (-->bad) In your mockup it would generate two FX lists: the regular FX-window list[right] and the new Plugin array in the Patcher window at a different location [left]). This wouldn´t be the best way to reduce the complexity by creating new barriers. Such psychology concepts not only are very important in designing learning-material but also are important in UI-design.
Patcher might be good as seperate plugin BUT as a native integration of a FX container in a DAW it is THE WORST one i know. It could just be a 3rd party plugin. Not any DAW integration at all.. It isn´t using any excesting DAW resources. IT is just a standalone plugin host.
But integrating it fully in the UI (like Ableton and Bitwig) is just what one wants to optimize workflow and to unload unnesessary cognitve loads.
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Last edited by operator; 02-12-2021 at 06:11 PM.
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02-12-2021, 05:28 PM
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#85
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jan 2016
Location: Los Angeles, CA
Posts: 3,116
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Man even simple stuff like building a nice wide pad with 2 synths, one left one right. You can kind of fake this by putting 2 synths on the same track and disabling L on one and R on the other with the Channel Matrix, but no way to independently treat each. It becomes 2 stereo tracks, hard-panned (so they could have been mono) plus two different sends if you want to treat the effects differently.
That's just a tiny off the cuff example.
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02-12-2021, 05:37 PM
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#86
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: The Underground Bunker
Posts: 705
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If others where wondering about Waves Studio Rack I'll just post this video of a puppet speaking - hoping to entice the purple sock puppet
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u29dacBjFOk
It looks insanely powerful, but reasonably easy to figure out.
But I will never install any waves-ilok-plugs again.
A "Reacontainer" would be great. With users sharing fx-containers (and to the extend that some only use native vst/js) it's practically just adding a metric ton of new fx to Reaper. It's a bit like programming a whole new plugin, minus the actual coding.
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02-12-2021, 05:46 PM
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#87
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Nov 2019
Location: Austria, near Lake Constance
Posts: 453
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We need to have it embeded in the excisting UI --> FX-window... this 3rd party containers are amazing but working in several pop-up windows isn´t ideal.
If it would be integrated in the excisting FX-window (like my mockup earlier) it would just be the best solution in my opinion. The one solution with the least cognitve load --> close visual proximity, familiar environment, uses well-known conventions of displaying Layers/Hirarchie (Folder-Trees/indents), list is only text without unnesesarry visual cords or plugin-representations.
--> Keeps brain-processing-power free for the complex idea you need a FX container for. SO please keep it simple on the working-memory...
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Last edited by operator; 02-12-2021 at 06:10 PM.
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02-12-2021, 11:40 PM
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#88
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: Krefeld, Germany
Posts: 14,686
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Quote:
Originally Posted by operator
this 3rd party containers are amazing but working in several pop-up windows isn´t ideal.
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The lack of JSFX support rules those out, anyway.
-Michael
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02-12-2021, 11:51 PM
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#89
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jul 2019
Posts: 9
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I'm not a fan of wired connections for the above examples. It's disconnected and visually annoying. There is simple ways to do this I can add, maybe another day...
Last edited by tredwel; 02-13-2021 at 12:00 AM.
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02-13-2021, 12:27 AM
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#90
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Feb 2017
Posts: 4,812
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tredwel
I'm not a fan of wired connections for the above examples. It's disconnected and visually annoying. There is simple ways to do this I can add, maybe another day...
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me too! keep it simple visually, please.
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02-13-2021, 01:56 AM
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#92
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Feb 2017
Posts: 4,812
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i wouldn't mind !
- does studio one has sends per "layers"?
example:
:: TRACK Synth ::
synth1 -> eq -> main output
synth1 -> eq -> send 2 (pre) to main output
synth1 -> eq -> send 2 (post) skip main output
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02-13-2021, 01:56 AM
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#93
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 3,294
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the main idea is to have the ability to split and make parallel conections inside one track.
this is what really matters and i don't care about the wirings since I'm sure that the scripters here will be able to make it wireable...but they first need cockos to give the option for advanced routing inside a single track.
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02-13-2021, 02:01 AM
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#94
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Feb 2017
Posts: 4,812
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edit: nevermind
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Last edited by deeb; 02-13-2021 at 12:17 PM.
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02-13-2021, 02:19 AM
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#95
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 3,294
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Quote:
Originally Posted by deeb
in pre they are dealing with channel maps:
All this concepts should be applied in items too.
And i would love to have individual sends per layer and sends per item . I just mentioned it in pre.
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i didn't understand what exactly did you request from them and how it is related to fx container
please explain
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02-13-2021, 02:28 AM
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#96
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Feb 2017
Posts: 4,812
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edit: nevermind
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Last edited by deeb; 02-13-2021 at 12:18 PM.
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02-13-2021, 11:01 AM
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#97
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 3,294
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Quote:
Originally Posted by deeb
synth1 -> eq -> main output
synth1 -> eq -> send 2 (pre) to main output
synth1 -> eq -> send 2 (post) skip main output
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still don't get it
what's the idea..
you should make a visual idea lol
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02-13-2021, 12:11 PM
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#98
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Feb 2017
Posts: 4,812
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i have spent some time thinking and this send thing is not viable. so forget about it. I was wrong.
only thing to retain is that a fx container should work on Media Item Fxchain level too . That's it!
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Last edited by deeb; 02-13-2021 at 12:19 PM.
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02-13-2021, 12:13 PM
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#99
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Feb 2017
Posts: 4,812
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ferropop
plus two different sends if you want to treat the effects differently.
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Chances are that there is no DAW that does this! i have spent manny time thinking about it, and this does not make sense it we want to freeze a track / item
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02-13-2021, 12:28 PM
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#100
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 3,294
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do you mean of making a Send group inside the container or outside of it?
**the "project reverb" is a send track or an fx inside the container itself?
as far as I remember you can do that with Patcher. both inside the container and outside of it. if you want to send it outside you can use "fruity send" plugin.
I'm sure this will be done easily on the flow but first we need to get the basic vst routing flexibility inside a track and the rest will just flow...
I'm sure that the scripters here will make it easily if cockos will give them the ability.
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02-13-2021, 12:33 PM
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#101
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Feb 2017
Posts: 4,812
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The paradigma does not make sense after freezing , so i don't like it : )
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02-15-2021, 05:48 AM
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#102
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 3,294
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wow the more i use the fx window the more I see how trashy it is.
it really needs an overall...
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03-02-2021, 11:50 AM
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#103
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Nov 2019
Location: Austria, near Lake Constance
Posts: 453
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Make every Plugin Automatic Gain compensate
Another idea a FX container would be much handier to work with:
A User in the Melda Forum showcased a nice idea. He used a FX-Container and Melda MAGC (Melda Auto Gain Compensation) to make all his Mixing Plugins (no matter what company) auto-gain-compensate. That means no matter what he is doing in the FX the Output is matched (gain compensated) to the Input so he only hears the "real" changes the FX is doing. This way one could create a FX-Container Presets with the desired plugin and then when being creative just import a single instance of FX-Container instead of multiple Plugins + Pin routing. Huge workflow gain.
FX Container ---> Unlimited unlimitedness...
Screenshot from the guy from the Melda Forum. It is a simple routing and almost isn´t worth talking about, but if one thinks twice the potential and saved time might come into mind.
Last edited by operator; 03-02-2021 at 12:07 PM.
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03-02-2021, 12:09 PM
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#104
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Dec 2020
Posts: 145
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You can use an editor based on the Track Wiring Diagram.
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I am a comedian and satirist. Ironic, sarcastic and cynical. This is my essence. But I never mean it personally. Do not feel offended. It's just a joke. Like the whole life.
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03-02-2021, 12:20 PM
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#105
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Nov 2019
Location: Austria, near Lake Constance
Posts: 453
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When I look at the Software Blender (Open Source 3D Software) which is getting major update(s) at the moment with the "Node Everything Project". Many (if not most) of the operations will become node based in the end and therefore procedural. :-O (Fx-Container could be a node-system)
This is so huge and I just love it. So many things are becoming less difficult to achieve. Therefore the "lazy-threshold" isn´t triggered as fast and the results are much more complex, refined, faster/easier and non-distructive/interchangable.
I just love the freedom, potential and creativity node based systems provide... (But i am not sure if nodes and noodles are the best things for FX handling and for Reaper in general... maybe more like my mockups earlier.. idk... The Devs shall decide what is the best and final solution)
Last edited by operator; 03-02-2021 at 01:13 PM.
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03-02-2021, 12:39 PM
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#106
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Nov 2019
Location: Austria, near Lake Constance
Posts: 453
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FX on Keyboard Shortcuts
One thing I really wish for (no matter if node-based or whatever) that the solution will be embedded into the Reaper "infrastructure". I have all my most used FX and plugins (arround 40-50 Plugins)on keyboard shortcuts and would hate to loose this amazing super fast workflow during sounddesign/writing music when working with Reapers native FX-Container. Main reason why I don´t use a 3rd party FX Container, inserting FX is just a hasle... (I insert FX and design sounds faster than Lucky Luke draws his gun, thanks to Reaper xD)
Last edited by operator; 03-02-2021 at 01:10 PM.
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03-02-2021, 02:02 PM
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#107
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Dec 2020
Posts: 145
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I use Blender too. Blender is amazing. The guys behind blender are awesome Errors are corrected immediately. They make nightly builds. You have a road maps. That is software development on another level. At the beginning, they were just laughed at. Now they are destroying everyone else. Adios Maya
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I am a comedian and satirist. Ironic, sarcastic and cynical. This is my essence. But I never mean it personally. Do not feel offended. It's just a joke. Like the whole life.
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03-05-2021, 04:35 AM
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#108
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jun 2020
Posts: 44
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operator
I agree with you, your comments on this thread described everything I would like, and even more. 👍🏻
Therefore, I have nothing to add, I'm just waiting for some comment from the developers, and I hope that this comment will be something like: "We have already started programming a new type of FX Container, taking into account your wishes." 😄
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03-05-2021, 06:39 AM
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#109
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Sep 2015
Posts: 690
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I'd be happy to have a simple group of FX than can be enabled and disabled as one. The use case is a main FX that is accompanied by gain adjustments it cannot do it by itself or same EQing that only make sense when the main FX is active.
Masi
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03-05-2021, 06:23 PM
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#110
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Feb 2016
Location: Hollyweird
Posts: 2,630
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+1 would use even just to make organizing fx more convenient
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03-06-2021, 01:11 AM
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#111
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Nov 2019
Location: Austria, near Lake Constance
Posts: 453
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gogi
operator [...]
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:-) Hope too, that the Devs will see value in this FR.
Last edited by operator; 03-06-2021 at 04:07 AM.
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03-06-2021, 04:26 AM
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#112
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Nov 2019
Location: Austria, near Lake Constance
Posts: 453
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Level 0 - We can nest Songs/Projects/Items inside of Reaper ---> Subprojects
Level 1 - We can nest Tracks inside of Reaper ---> Folder-Tracks
Level 2 - We CANNOT nest on the level of FX ---> FX-Container
An FX-Container would be just like Folder-Tracks... just scaled down to the "lower level of FX". Imagine just all the handy things Folder-Track bring to your mixing-workflow instead of only plane Tracks which all have the same "hirarchy-level" in the project (that means: no Pre-Master Folder / no Drum Folders / no Trash Folder / no Vocal Folder). Same would be with FX-Container, it would bring so many new workflow "shortcuts" with it.
Now one might say you can just use Folder-Tracks instead of FX-Container, because it is just a "level" above and therefore it doesn´t make much difference. And Bitwig`s FX-Container is also just stacked tracks inside a single Container with all the same controls like a Track: Volume, Pan, etc. --> see my image on site 1)
BUT this thought only arise when one doens´t think about the new dimension a new "level" can provide. With an FX container you can spread out (split) and combine (merge) in every point of your FX-Chain or even several times (e.g. AutoGainCompensate every Plugin... see image above).
OR you can scale down operations from one level to the lower level to get easier control AND keep it more tidy in the Project!
- Multi-Output-Instrument in a FX-Container (Instrument-Container)....
- Or just layer different Instruments to one sound in one Track e.g. Hans Zimmer Braahhhms which is a Trombone, FrenchHorn, Brass and some other instruments.. A layered Instrument is seen by myself as one sound, so I would prefer to have it all stored in one Track (if this makes sense :-))
Last edited by operator; 03-06-2021 at 06:05 AM.
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03-06-2021, 08:15 AM
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#113
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 3,294
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lets all add this request to our signature like "operator" did.
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03-06-2021, 11:56 AM
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#114
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: Krefeld, Germany
Posts: 14,686
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Reflected
lets all add this request to our signature like "operator" did.
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Seems like a decently egomaniac attitude
-Michael
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03-06-2021, 02:20 PM
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#115
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Feb 2017
Posts: 4,812
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Quote:
Originally Posted by operator
An FX-Container would be just like Folder-Tracks... just scaled down to the "lower level of FX". Imagine just all the handy things Folder-Track bring to your mixing-workflow instead of only plane Tracks which all have the same "hirarchy-level" in the project (that means: no Pre-Master Folder / no Drum Folders / no Trash Folder / no Vocal Folder). Same would be with FX-
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The thing is that all of this is already possible in reaper with channel mapping. We just don't have a proper user interface.
The best trial done by "eugene" is "lua FXrack":
https://forum.cockos.com/showthread.php?t=195417
IMO is perfect: Simple layout for chain, Pre and Pos, but has a few show stopper bugs and Unfortunetly it's not being developed anymore
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03-12-2021, 09:09 AM
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#116
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Feb 2016
Location: Hollyweird
Posts: 2,630
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MUX Modular looks really great. I went to their site and hunted around for the buy button for ages before realizing it's currently FREE. So I'll try it out and report back. It's far more powerful than just an fx container of course. Looks perfect for our needs – you can create your own UI to control just the parameters you need from your plugins, can insert meters between, etc etc.
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03-12-2021, 09:31 AM
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#117
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Feb 2017
Posts: 4,812
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03-12-2021, 09:41 AM
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#118
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 3,294
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i have mux and i think i tried all the 3rd modular plugins out there.... left them all.
nothing is good as a built in modular chain.
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03-12-2021, 10:52 AM
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#119
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Feb 2016
Location: Hollyweird
Posts: 2,630
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Quote:
Originally Posted by deeb
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Look a little closer and you'll see the full license is currently free.
The text makes it sound like it's a temporary thing that will expire, though.
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03-12-2021, 01:27 PM
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#120
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Feb 2017
Posts: 4,812
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Thank you! yes! but still: "For now you can use the temporary user keys below to unlock MuLab 8 and MUX Modular 8 Plug-In to their full power!"
At some point they change to whatever mode and then my projects i stuck unless i buy a license.
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