v5.0pre5c - January 11 2015

[Fergler]

Originally Posted by Banned

Yeah, that was a bit weird.

I don't see what's wrong. Looks like a lot of my 20th century music history examples.

Penderecki approves.

[Lawrence]

Originally Posted by Reno.thestraws

agreed on airon's experience but VCA are not only for mixing film and there's so many difference in the worflow between post and music mixer

For sure. I just think he's probably much more likely not to miss anything useful to both camps.

Reaper (and I say this respectfully) kinda got into trouble that way with midi, with users driving certain things a certain way, and they kinda had to re-visit a lot of that later on and change it. It's always good to have an experienced voice in the mix early on and he might be that guy.

[ELP]

EvilDragon:
1.NO! Release velocity is NOT pan, it should not default to 64. 0 is a good default, because that's what you get with a keyboard that DOES NOT transmit release velocity - it's interpreted as 0 in the MIDI stream.

2.This actually depends on the actual instrument and how IT reproduces release velocity. It can also be inverted, for all it's worth.

1:
SRY ED but if i have to say that this is false and of course it´s not pan i only want say that the middle 40H value is a better default value for devices that can interpreted Note off release values.

If a device that is able to release Note off velocity to recognize such a
"Note On with velocity 0" receives, interprets it as a " note off with medium (64 decimal = 40H ) Release Velocity"

And a device that don´t understand/interpreted the third value(release) for note off simple ignore this.

And that's what I mean with With this Midi Spec of Note Offs the Industry was always inconsequently.
Some devices that can´t sent release values sent 0 and others 40H as a fill value.
But for devices that understand release, 40H is really a better default.

2:
of course but it´s not the standard to first inverted things.

[EvilDragon]

Originally Posted by ELP

1:
SRY ED but if i have to say that this is false and of course it´s not pan i only want say that the middle 40H value is a better default value for devices that can interpreted Note off release values.

If a device that is able to release Note off velocity to recognize such a
"Note On with velocity 0" receives, interprets it as a " note off with medium (64 decimal = 40H ) Release Velocity"

And a device that don´t understand/interpreted the third value(release) for note off simple ignore this.

I disagree. What are your sources for this? Why would it have to be 64 as default?

[heda]

Thanks for devs that listen to "negative" comments, that are in fact not negative but constructive.

[Justin]

Hmm, actually I've considered the VCA mute/pan/width on a frigid 20F bike ride, and have come 'round to having the VCA mute apply as if it were a mute envelope on the track.

[Coachz]

How can you ride at 20F? Wow my face would freeze off!

[Justin]

Originally Posted by Coachz

How can you ride at 20F? Wow my face would freeze off!

Beard weather! It was too cold though, I only lasted an hour (that and the sun was going down)

[Sexan]

Originally Posted by musicbynumbers

Love the pre effects slave VCA, so powerful! thanks!

FR

Could we sneak in a "trim" control into somewhere in the track controls.

Even if we put it in the track control panel (when you right click the volume fader) that would work.

That would keep compatability with other themes and put it out the way for the times when it's needed.

A control that gives us a pre effects volume per track would be insanely useful for mixing.

The amount of times people in most DAWS have to use a trim vst instead when using "analog emulation" effects shows it would be useful here.

Right now to do this, I either use a plugin or pull down the automation envelope, neither is as fast.

+1000000
haha now you can use pre-fx vca for this ,but seriously trim/gain would be awesome

BTW is it possible for VCA master to show metering for slaves like cubase?

[timothys_monster]

Cockos, I hereby thank you so much for implementing VCAs.

And what I really dig is, that you came to a solution using the given features of REAPER (grouping matrix). So we can still have normal folders and stuff.

Awesome!

(Now there's only VCA slave automation missing )

[Mercado_Negro]

Originally Posted by Justin

Hmm, actually I've considered the VCA mute/pan/width on a frigid 20F bike ride, and have come 'round to having the VCA mute apply as if it were a mute envelope on the track.

Check that mute envelope, J. It's causing pops when you hit stop for some reason.

[planetnine]

Very, very, very appreciative of the VCA implementation. Thank you very much devs -I knew it could be added onto the Track Groups feature, I was so disappointed when you introduced track groups and the slaves didn't follow master automation.

The only thing (at this point -I've only spent ten minutes test-driving them) that I would ask for that echos some previous requests in this thread would be an option to colour the fader cap of VCA masters. Either this could be an auto thing which coloured it vertically according to the track group colours it was master to (eg half red, half green fader tint, or just some easy manual thing like we colour tracks at the moment.

Either way, it's great, thank you very much, I knew we just had to keep asking you -my first request for VCAs in REAPER...


Now, what else is in that changelog?




Right, while I'm feeling lucky:
-can we have an option in WALTER to allow themers to add (as a user option), 6dB fader marks (even if it's one-pixel dots to the right of the fader) and an extendable 0dB line to meet them -scaling to come from REAPER fader scaling values.

-can we have a notes field for project markers so I can hide my item marker script data headers from the ruler arker row.

-can we have script access to the marker/region sets (to allow eg deletion of markers matching a set, and recall of marker sets).

-can we have track channels permitted to be =1, and pan, metering pin matrixes, etc.




>

[ELP]

EvilDragon:I disagree. What are your sources for this? Why would it have to be 64 as default?

I didn´t want to spam here about the true Note off specs but:

first my many devices say this

and

MIDI Specifications  

COPY:

Note Off

MIDI provides two roughly equivalent means of turning off a note (voice). 
A note may be turned off either by sending a Note Off message
for the same note number and channel, or by sending a Note On
message for that note and channel with a velocity value of zero. 
The advantage to using "Note On at zero velocity" is that it can 
avoid sending additional status bytes when Running Status is employed.
Due to this efflciency, sending Note On messages with velocity values
 of zero is the most commonly used method. However, some keyboard 
instruments implement release velocity where a Note Off code (80H)
accompanied by a "velocity off" byte is used. A receiver must be 
capable of recognizing either method of turning off a note, 
and should treat them identically.
The three methods of using Note On (9nH) or Note Off (8nH) are as follows:

1)
  for a keyboard which does not implement Velocity,
 but not Release Velocity the note will be turned on using 
    9n,kkkkkkk,64 (40H) 
    and may be turned off using 
    9n,0kkkkkkk,00000000 
    or 
    8n,0kkkkkkk,0xxxxxxx (a value of 64 (40H) is used for x); 

2)
    for a keyboard which incorporates Key On Velocity, 
but not Release Velocity the note is turned on using 
    9n,0kkkkkkk,0vvvvvvv 
    and may be turned off using 
    9n,0kkkkkkk,00000000 
    or 
    8n,0kkkkkkk,0xxxxxxx (a value of 64 (40H) is recommended for x); 

3)

    where the keyboard implements both Key On Velocity and Release Velocity,
 a note is turned on using 
    9n,0kkkkkkk,0vvvvvvv 
    and turned off using 
    8n,0kkkkkkk,0vvvvvvv.

also.

But the industry was about it probably never agree when it came to bring devices to market that do not generate release values ​​.

[heda]

Is there an option to hide the new tempo markers in the MIDI editor? see this:
it would also be good to be able to hide markers and tempo markers in the arrange window.

[Sexan]

I guess now is a good time to ask for a new Folder track type ?Since majority of users will now use VCA to do automation and other stuff and use folders for organizing purposes but don't want to compromise tracks in folder with volume or other things.Can WALTER helps us here like adding folder state command (new icon above Track Folder icon) that will switch layouts between Original and "Organization" layout that removes stuff we don't need?

[gofer]

Originally Posted by EvilDragon

0 should be default for note off. That means immediate release (like note on velocity 127, which means immediate hit/maximum force).

Are you sure there? I don't have much experience with it, but I'd think maximum release velocity (127) would release faster than minimum. Or is zero an exceptional value (like for note on velocity)?

I think in some sampled instruments release velocity will control the volume of the release sample rather than a duration, my guts would tend for some middle value as default. But I gladly let you experts decide.

In an ideal world we could freely set the default values for both velocities.

[Tale]

Originally Posted by Banned

Why not simply make the default note-off velocity a preference? Isn't that how we're used to do things here?

Well, if Note Off velocity would copy the last selected note's value like Note On velocity does, then I don't think we need a preference for this. AFAIK there also isn't a preference for default Note On velocity (right?).

Originally Posted by ELP

for a keyboard which incorporates Key On Velocity,
but not Release Velocity the note is turned on using
9n,0kkkkkkk,0vvvvvvv
and may be turned off using
9n,0kkkkkkk,00000000
or
8n,0kkkkkkk,0xxxxxxx (a value of 64 (40H) is recommended for x);[/code]

This is what I seem to remember from the MIDI specs as well. However, I must admit that I can't seem to find any default Note Off recommendation on midi.org though.

Originally Posted by gofer

Are you sure there? I don't have much experience with it, but I'd think maximum release velocity (127) would release faster than minimum. Or is zero an exceptional value (like for note on velocity)?

The default Note Off velocity in Pianoteq is 127, which seems to support the theory that 127 is instant release, and 0 slower release. I don't believe 0 has a special meaning for Note Off velocity (because there is no reverse running status shortcut).

[DarkStar]

My 2p:

Note Off/ vel 127 = instant release,
Note Off/ vel 0 = slow release (as determined by the receiving synth / plug-in),
Note Off/ vel 64 = used if the velocity features are not used.

From JGlatt's MIDI Spec:

The second data byte is the velocity, a value from 0 to 127. This indicates how quickly the note should be released (where 127 is the fastest). It's up to a MIDI device how it uses velocity information. Often velocity will be used to tailor the VCA release time. MIDI devices that can generate Note Off messages, but don't implement velocity features, will transmit Note Off messages with a preset velocity of 64.

It would be interesting to know what plug-ins do actually handle Note Off velocities - a quick read of a few User Guides here reveals nothing.

[Amazed]

Originally Posted by gofer

Are you sure there? I don't have much experience with it, but I'd think maximum release velocity (127) would release faster than minimum. Or is zero an exceptional value (like for note on velocity)?

I think in some sampled instruments release velocity will control the volume of the release sample rather than a duration, my guts would tend for some middle value as default. But I gladly let you experts decide.

In an ideal world we could freely set the default values for both velocities.

According to the Advanced Midi Users Guide by Penfold a note on message having a velocity byte of 0 is interpreted as note off.

[Tale]

Originally Posted by DarkStar

It would be interesting to know what plug-ins do actually handle Note Off velocities - a quick read of a few User Guides here reveals nothing.

Pianoteq supports it, as does Combo Model F (although I am not entirely sure I handle it correctly...). Also, I'm not sure how noticable Note Off velocity actually is in these two plug-ins.

EDIT: ComboF does handle Note Off velocity correctly, i.e. 127=fast..0=slow. Phew!

[ELP]

This is what I seem to remember from the MIDI specs as well. However, I must admit that I can't seem to find any default Note Off recommendation on midi.org though.

My copy inside the code block above is from:

MIDI 1.0 Detailed Specification
Document Version 4.2
Revised September 1995
Published by:
the MIDI Manufactures Association
Los Angeles CA.

40H is the recommended value in MIDI Specs.
but only the half of the Industry who build and sells keyboards that do not implements release values can maybe read...

[Tale]

Originally Posted by ELP

My copy inside the code block above is from:

MIDI 1.0 Detailed Specification
Document Version 4.2
Revised September 1995
Published by:
the MIDI Manufactures Association
Los Angeles CA.

Weird that this info doesn't seem to be available on their own website anymore. Anyway, I guess from now on I can find the info here. Thanks!

[ELP]

you can only order that detailed document on MIDI org.
It´s more specifically, also with the MIDI Hardware/Interface.

[airon]

Yes.

Delightful, to put it ever so mildly. Thank you for starting down that path.

To work. Gave pre5b a run. Several fun, hard-thinking moments as I figured out how this worked.

Two ways to get this going. First, the track group options in the context menu of the TCP/MCP. Not bad if the user figured out they can select tracks and set those options for selected tracks. A small degree of ambiguity.

Second way is the matrix where a tooltip to inform the user that they can triple-click one track to VCA slave status at a time is ... not there. Might be worth considering for that particular box.

Perhaps access to the group matrix could be facilitated from the track grouping options window to get a quicker overview. Or one could add the track group matrix to the TCP/MCP context menus.


My view on VCA Mutes.
It's a question of how useful the function is that this button performs. In traditional ways, and this refers to Protools' 7.5-year old implementation, the VCAs mute has its own automation curve and functions as an override to the slaves. This is great if you need to mute a bunch of tracks at once.

If any of the slave tracks have their own Mute automation, this is a better way of just getting rid of those tracks temporarily in a mix. The traditional group-mute ends up actually messing with the slave mute automation, instead of just overriding it.

Since VCAs are seen as remote controllers and/or augmentations to the slave tracks, the mute being an override instead of a VCA-bypass would make sense as well, perhaps more so.

The VCA bypass function is interesting though. I'm not entirely sure where I'd use that though. That could be just me.


These VCAs don't stack. They should. It's expected because it has proven itself, but that's not all. Reforming groups of the lower hierarchy of VCA slave tracks is a bureaucratic nightmare for the user.

Say I have six VCA groups of FX tracks, a master-VCA for FX, four ambience VCA groups and a master-VCA for ambiences, same for music, dialogue, adr and a master VCA. That's a simple layout. There might an added layer between the food group masters and the actual track VCAs for further refined control.

What happens if I had to add a couple of tracks to one of the groups, or several ? I have to add those tracks to all the upper-echolon VCA groups, right ? Happiness. Hopelessness. Miss a checkbox ? Grrrreat.

In other words, stacking is simpler, and fairly easy to avoid mistakes with. I hope the lack of stacking VCAs is not a technical limitation :\ .


Another good reason for stacking VCAs is group drilling. Here's the action for it :

"Show the group slaves for the selected track"

That's how I drill down to VCA slave tracks on an Icon console, and I'd love to do that in Reaper as well because it has proven itself to be so fast.

VCA stacking lets me drill down from the top layer of VCAs in a second or two, instead of having to scroll through a 200 track session to find the right track. Filtering tracks in the track list is slower than that because it involves a LOT more key presses and remembering stuff. Drilling down VCA masters, from the food group VCA masters down to a food group section to a VCA track-group master and then its slaves, is SELECT,*BAM*,SELECT,*BAM*,SELECT,*BAM*. Going back to a previous display of tracks would be the visual undo.


My VCA test session is included as an attachment. It a 1kHz sine wave at different speeds with a JS analyzer in the master(pulled to -inf) to measure the levels of output of the different tracks. If VCAs stack, that'll show it easily.


Man, this is pretty awesome, and I'm gobsmacked to finally see it happen. Let's keep working on it.

[Mercado_Negro]

Can we please have a couple of settings to change items peaks color when locked? It's hard to see them now when tracks are frozen.

[airon]

On the MCP, tracks that function as a VCA master fader could get a small "v" painted on top of the fader cap, maybe with a group colour outline.

Other than that, White Tie and company are likely to have more sophisticated ideas than we might.

[nicholas]

Am I the only one having difficulty in getting the context editor in the notation editor?

Tried right clicking everywhere.

[innuendo]

Idea:
Could we have a VCA mode for folders? For lazy people like me who like to right-click something, change the preference, and then your folder is instantly a VCA master of the enclosed tracks. Easy!
(that is to expand on current implementation, rather than replace it)

[schwa]

Originally Posted by nicholas

Am I the only one having difficulty in getting the context editor in the notation editor?

Tried right clicking everywhere.

There are big changes in the notation editor coming in the next build or two. It's probably best to consider the current implementation sort of a preview.

[heda]

Originally Posted by innuendo

Idea:
Could we have a VCA mode for folders? For lazy people like me who like to right-click something, change the preference, and then your folder is instantly a VCA master of the enclosed tracks. Easy!
(that is to expand on current implementation, rather than replace it)

sometimes you have subfolders inside folders... it can be complicated depending on what you do.
I'm sure you would be able to create a custom action to do that if VCA related actions are created

[Lawrence]

Originally Posted by airon

Yes.

And there he be.

I knew A would bring some value. We obviously don't need an Icon ($80k surface) in Reaper but it's certainly good to have someone who's worked on one for some perspective of the possible workflows. Really good stuff.

[nicholas]

Originally Posted by schwa

There are big changes in the notation editor coming in the next build or two. It's probably best to consider the current implementation sort of a preview.

Thanks schwa ... think I'll leave it alone for now then as something to look forward to later.

[plush2]

Originally Posted by Coachz

How can you ride at 20F? Wow my face would freeze off!

I saw a guy bike ride past my place in -20C or worse (-40C with wind chill one day) nearly every day last week so it can be done.

*edit Yay VCA! just to stay on topic.

[Fergler]

Originally Posted by heda

sometimes you have subfolders inside folders... it can be complicated depending on what you do.
I'm sure you would be able to create a custom action to do that if VCA related actions are created

I think if it only affects direct children it would be fine. And it could stack, so if you also made one of the child folders into a VCA it too would end up controlled by the root folder.

[PitchSlap]

Originally Posted by swiiscompos

# MIDI: stop hanging notes when muting MIDI media items during playback

THANK YOU! Works fine now! This is a big improvement.

While this is being addressed how about a fix for hanging notes when changing the item properties too (easy to reproduce by shifting a pad up/down an octave while it's playing)?

Muting and transposing probably account for 95% of hanging notes for me but if anyone else can remember other things that cause this problem, now would probably be a good time to mention them.

[RobinGShore]

Sorry to distract from all the VCA excitement (yay VCAS!!!!!!!), but I'm hoping someone can tell me how to use the absolute frames time display that was added in pre3. I can see this being pretty useful for me but I can't seem to figure out how to make it work. It doesn't appear as an option when I right click on the ruler or the clock.

[Bevosss]

Originally Posted by RobinGShore

It doesn't appear as an option when I right click on the ruler or the clock.

It's there for me in pre5, right-click on the ruler, bottom option...same with the clock. Maybe reinstall to check?

[Reno.thestraws]

The VCA bypass function is interesting though. I'm not entirely sure where I'd use that though. That could be just me.

I was thinking exactly the same thing. When the hell do I need this?

It could be interesting for bypassing a volume automation for A/B comparaison but i'd prefer to use the bypass on the ECP lane. A lot more logical to me.


I'm 100% agree with AIRON, stacking is very important.



I come back a minute on the fader movements of the slave.

I think they should move with the vca master. exactly like the have their volume grouped.

a lot more intuitive when working with proper gain staging.

having a fader at 0db (-18dbfs = 0VU) and hitting the master buss at -10 VU because VCA is at -10 is very weird.

I don't like to compare with other DAWs but take a look at the new cubase 8 VCA

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ymi-DxCPPIE

Personnaly, I don't need more than this

In short, the traditionnal grouping tracks parameters are efficient, they just need to have an option that allow the slave to follow the master automation

[cubic13]

I'm feeling a little OT and grumpy, considering the the several new features recently added, but well... Justin, Schwa, Jeffos, could you :

- look again at this one : http://forum.cockos.com/showthread.php?t=143573 / http://forum.cockos.com/project.php?issueid=3412 ? It's really needed to set the project tempo to a new freely MIDI recorded improvisation and the present implementation doesn't work and is contradictory with the 'Project timebase help'.

- Consider a native 'Retrospective record' feature, at least for MIDI ? During my Cubase years, I started several project with this feature which allowed me to retrieve a play with a VSTi which hadn't been recorded at first.

If these two were there, I could definitely get rid of Cubase for any new project... Thanks for anything you could do about them and keep on the good work !

[PitchSlap]

Originally Posted by cubic13

- Consider a native 'Retrospective record' feature, at least for MIDI ? During my Cubase years, I started several project with this feature which allowed me to retrieve a play with a VSTi which hadn't been recorded at first.

+1

I think many Cubase/Nuendo converts would love to see this (Logic also has a similar "Capture as Recording" feature). It's hard to underestimate how useful it is until you've used it, and even if it rescues a single great idea, it would be a blessing.

When I was a recording engineer working in a studio we used it on numerous occasions for getting great takes from singers that get nervous as soon as the recording light is on and would often give their best performance when they thought it was just a "practice" run.