Old 07-07-2020, 01:36 AM   #1
Naji
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Default The value of music

What does music mean for you?
My point of view will surely sound strange for most of you.
As a kid and teen I listened a lot to music and played a lot own compositions.
But maybe it was different, because albums of 60 ies, 70 ies and 1980ies could be compared to an exciting book.
Take any Led Zeppelin album, you could listen from first to last track and it was great. Are there albums today that invite you to an exciting journey?
Releases back in the day were first and foremost for the younger generation.
Today we have more old people than back in the day and the releases for the young people are not exciting at all for me
I was a kid when Purple Rain was released and it blew me away. That's just one example. Are there albums today that can blow you away?
Every day one million new mixes are uploaded on soundcloud. I have an overdose by having heard and performed too much music in younger days and can not handle the huge offer of today.
Sometimes I listen to music here on Reaper forum, that's enough for me.

What do you do with your own mixes?
Do you try to improve them every month, do you listen to them every week.
My mixes are only ideas, I record it, do not pay any attention to it any more.
I am a little buddhist and do not want to keep things.
Worst case scenario would be, if I got 10 million likes for a mix and a label wanted to release it. Imagine you would have to reply to thousands of posts on social media every day and maybe you would even have to make a concert tour. I like performing live, but not more than 10 performances in a year.
I rarely listen to music, the music I like is old and why should I listen to Santanas Black magic woman again, I heard this song so many times!
Classical music is an exception for me, but do not listen to it every week. It has a kind of eternal value for me depending on who performs it. Eg Glenn Gold playing Bach.
Eg Purple Rain is a nice song and Prince could perform it a million times with joy. He was the kind of artist always playing a different version. Well, compared to one of Chopin's piano concertos, well... Let's say Chopin is different league

What value does music have for you?
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Old 07-07-2020, 11:07 AM   #2
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Hi Naji. Yes there's a lot in what you say. I would pick up on two points. Firstly the accessibility of almost everything at a click of a mouse etc. Back in my teens/early twenties music was in a sense scarce. Albums were not exactly cheap and buying one was for me an event of sorts and accompanied by a sense of something like "what-music-do-I-want-to-be-part-of-my-life-just-now". Part of that I now think was an element of me defining myself as a person (adolescence right?) and culturally/politically too. Any music I did have was really listened to in the sense of I would sit and listen attentively (even if the technology of reproduction was fairly basic). I got to know the music which was easier given, as I say, it was a relatively scarce resource.
So was it better ? Not really - the ability now to reach out across time and culture is an incredible luxury that we sadly take for granted. But it has changed at the very least how we consume music and that includes me too. The consequences are well known (market fragmentation, heavily promoted acts with massive investment behind them vs. a tantalising vision of an independent self publishing Utopia etc.)

My second point as about age and how profoundly that alters music's meaning. It is hard to be definitive on that. In some ways I have changed (more likely to get enraptured by classical works and some artists I thought were "OK" I now see as the geniuses they are like Nina Simone, Stevie Wonder, Paul Simon, Jeff Beck, Aretha Franklin, Bela Fleck, Chris Thile etc.) But I also still struggle with a large swathe of people I know are brilliant, creative and hugely talented but whose work (with some exceptions) I just don't "get" but wish I did if only cos people I admire adore them. Please don't judge me but that includes Kate Bush, Prince, Bowie...
I guess one thing I now turn to music for as I enter my final decade or so of life is that it must be nurturing for ... what? My soul? I don't believe in souls I am afraid but I do believe in love, compassion and connection and I seem to respond to music that shows a musician using all their intelligences to engage with that, however it is expressed. Perhaps that's why the blues still speaks to me, why Iris Dement and The McGarrigles and Regina Spektor and Sam Lee and Kathryn Tickell and Victor Wooten and many many others are still helping me make sense of what it means to be a living human being.

An enduring favourite musician of mine once wrote "Music, is so much less/ Than what you are". That is true but it should, I think, make us wonder all the more at the miracle of life rather than the limitations of organised vibrations in air.

Sorry if that sounds a little "preachy" BTW!
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Old 07-08-2020, 02:20 AM   #3
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Regarding there being exciting, album-like journeys on offer in newly made music: yes, of course there are. They're just not necessarily arranged in form of an "album", as defined in era of vinyls and CDs. After all, the concept of album developed from recording of a performance, and lengthy journey-like performances had existed for centuries (if not millennia) in various forms, from tribal dance events to symphonies.

These days new journeys may take form of a genre DJ mix, or a playlist on a streaming site, or a videogame soundtrack, or a concert inside a virtual environment, and so on.


I think such journeys will always exist in some form, as long as there are travelers.
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Old 07-08-2020, 03:03 AM   #4
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thanks for your posts. Very interesting to read your thoughts, martifingers. Well, as for Prince, I do not like every of his songs, but I admire his versatilty and always to grow and change - a chameleon, he never surrendered (in the beginning of his career he performed as opening act for Rolling Stones and the audience threw bottles at him), he always improved his skills and became one of the best guitar players ever. He could play a lot of instruments not only well, but excellent. My first experience with music was blues, as well and I have this experience deep inside me, though Flamenco is the music I like most with classic music, because Flamenco has influences from corners all over the world combined in a music style with tempo and loudness changes and fire! I have been listening a lot to music already, before I heard Prince the first time. I thought when you know Muddy Waters, Hendrix, Zappa, Led Zeppelin, Deep Purple, Jon McLaughlin, Eric Clapton - there could not be better music any more and no guitarist to top them. Well, when I saw Prince, he beat Hendrix to second place those days (now Hendrix is not at all on my chart list any more, god, he played so ugly loud haha) It is not just the guitar playing, also the performance & show that I loved, Hendrix was more that Sex, Drugs and Rock&Roll guy with quite a lot of depressive songs - I did not really like that. I saw Prince live only three times, but a lot on youtube. He has so much joy when he performs, each time like he would play his last concert. And now his songs are and will be released that were unreleased in his vault - some are so unbelievably amazing. Again he is kind of savior for me, even though he is dead, "he" releases new music (well mostly from 80ies). I prefer these overwhelming productions way more than most new productions. Of course I do accept that the young people use the new technology, so many songs with modified voices, quantized drums or guitars that sound like they were played on synths - that´s not for me...
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Old 07-08-2020, 04:03 AM   #5
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My daughter is a huge Prince fan and even met him once so my blind spot is a family bone of contention!
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Old 07-08-2020, 08:14 AM   #6
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What value does music have for you?
I value it a lot and I even start paying for music in the last year with Spotify premium. That being said the way that musicians are idolized annoys me. Celeb culture in general annoys me. Here you have a guy that wrote a few catchy tunes and suddenly he has a wikipedia page and idolising fans. On the other hand you have other people like welfare workers, researchers, philantropists we never hear of.
Even though I view good literature as a higher art form I will likely not read a book twice but I will listen to a good album many times.
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Old 07-08-2020, 08:21 AM   #7
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Well, when I saw Prince, he beat Hendrix to second place those days (now Hendrix is not at all on my chart list any more, god, he played so ugly loud haha)
Sacrilege.
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Old 07-08-2020, 08:34 AM   #8
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It is indeed strange that people are idolized, but mostly by teenagers in a more fanatic way.
So called superstars lived from being idolized, that is their bread, I guess.
The time of superstars was from about 1950 to 1990 mostly. They could become superstars, because they signed a contract with major labels. Today we still have stars, but they are not super any more.
Do researchers want to be idolized? , that would rather be annoying for them, I guess.
One of the first superstars was Paganini and Liszt, the first to make concert tours.
I think as a teen I idolized Prince and now I am wondering why. I suppose, I admired one guy to make almost everything by himself, I was very interested in finding out how he produced his music and compared to a lot of other musicians he was very decent and smart. These values and qualities were attractive for me.
But why young women cried and screamed like hell when Elvis or The Beatles were on stage, I can not give an answer... Maybe they still act like that?
Maybe as a teen you think you give a lot of love to someone you adore. You also want to identify and be indentified with something or someone - I am a hard rock guy, or I am a heavy metal guy or hip hop or...
Without Prince I would not have dived so deep into music and I do not know whether it's good or bad!?
I also like literature a lot more than music.

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Old 07-08-2020, 08:57 AM   #9
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Are there albums today that invite you to an exciting journey?
Just like speech, music must fit in the public sanctioned box, and therefor cannot be drawn outside the lines of conformity.

Personally, I say screw that and write and arrange stuff with no intention of it fitting in or conforming to some preordained structure. One of my old songs <Cathode Ray> was totally a thumb to the nose about musical conformity.
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Old 07-08-2020, 10:28 AM   #10
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Cathode Ray, love it just a simple 4/4 beat and it works haha
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Old 07-08-2020, 10:39 AM   #11
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Cathode Ray, love it just a simple 4/4 beat and it works haha
Thanks! It's actually in 7/8, which is the most popular time signature for radio!
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Old 07-08-2020, 10:55 AM   #12
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he always improved his skills and became one of the best guitar players ever.
I love Prince, I love his songs and all the stuff he accomplished. I think his arranging and recorded rhythmic guitar chops were great and that his production and writing and composition skills were astounding but...

I don't remember any of his guitar playing difficult to learn or play when I used to cover Prince tunes, genius ideas but simple ones which is also good but. And, I've never thought his live soloing was anything other than show and endless noodling of what's been endlessly noodled 1000 times before. That's fine, it's a show after all, and I respect the balls to do so, but it's not guitar performance genius in my eyes, more like 6-string masturbation for the audience which again is fine for the show, but great guitar player it is not, it's great showmanship. Sorry!
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Old 07-08-2020, 11:14 AM   #13
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One of my absolute favorite guitar players for their signature guitar solos is Denny Dias who played the Coral electric sitar line on "Do it again" as well as lots of other very strong melody lines with some flashy playing to boot.
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Old 07-08-2020, 11:24 AM   #14
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Thanks! It's actually in 7/8
Naji gets 4/4, you get 7/8, I get 7/4. Who went to music college?

'The House' is very good, BTW.
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Old 07-08-2020, 11:35 AM   #15
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~I like or know quite a lot of guitar players from Muddy Waters, Hendrix, Al di Meola, John McLaughlin, Van Halen, Jimny Page, George Benson and many more, but Prince is the best for me, because he understood one thing:the key to awesome and touching music is simplicity! If you could ask Bach, Mozart, Chopin and Beethoven, what would they answer to the question of what one of the most important things in music is, it's simplicity. Mozart was the master of simplicity and Chopin admired him for that, cuz his own compositions could get very complicated. I am pretty sure if there is one of the best compositions of all time, it would be Beethoven's ninth symphony, could a melody be more simple?
I do not consider Prince as a guitarist only, he was a workaholic and an artist, also one of the best bass players. I had many live cds from Hendrix US performances, so I know the reality, he is one of the most overrated gutarists, I heard him playing like a beginner, a non talented beginner! And was happy to hear someone like Prince who became better every year as a musician and artist. I can guess a guitarist when he bends a string, one tone only, Eric Clapton was special and Prince was unbelievable. The small things are the touching things, not an Al di Meola or Ingwie Malmsteen showing they practised thousand of hours for technique, technique is pretty cold.
You posted a video, a guy playing a one string guitar and singing. That's genius. I listened to a performance with this guy and a whole band, that was crap. He must do a one man performance, cuz he is unique. Simplicity!
I could play Tears in heaven immediately after I heard it for the first time. So beautiful and simple.
I never ever heard anyone playing the simple (it's not simple at all!) solo of Purple Rain as good as Prince did, because no one is able to, simple as that. What you need is deep feeling for that solo, more feeling than all guitarists I named in the beginning together

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Old 07-08-2020, 11:35 AM   #16
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Naji gets 4/4, you get 7/8, I get 7/4. Who went to music college?

'The House' is very good, BTW.
I was kidding, and you know it! Haha
I feel most comfortable with 4/4

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Old 07-08-2020, 11:37 AM   #17
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Naji gets 4/4, you get 7/8, I get 7/4. Who went to music college?
I did not go to music college, nor could I tell you the names of any of the chords I'm playing, so someone else wins!

Quote:
'The House' is very good, BTW.
Thanks Fex! That was written and recorded in one night before I had to pack up my studio (got enough time for one more song), which was the last room I tore down, so we could make a big move to our new house, which is the image for the song.
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Old 07-08-2020, 12:40 PM   #18
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Music is how I converse with God. By God I mean whatever higher intelligence that is all of the universe to include us all for you atheists. It’s not religious, but a tool that I use spiritually.

Are there albums today which take me on a journey? Yes there still are. Every time one of my favorite bands release a new album. I have the same enthusiasm to see where they want to take me. I am also a fan of dark ambient music and the music those musicians create is also another great enjoyment. I listen daily to a playlist on YouTube of this style music which range from hour long themed episodes through ten hour endurance marathons. Otherwise I’m spinning the music I grew up with. Due to so many new offerings by people, music that is new to me I rely on friends suggestions. I no longer have time during my day to sit and find stuff. This works out because I am rather picky in what I like.

What I do with most of my mixes is use them to demo new song ideas for other members of my band. I would say once or twice a month, I will pick out a couple songs and mix them as if I were planning on releasing them to the public. Once I find I like a particular mix, I will make an mp3 version and send them to 3-4 close friends who will critique them for me and I will take those suggestions and if what they say is wrong or needs mthem re of etc. I’ll send them back and get second opinions. I write those notes down so next time I mix something, I’ll try to cover what they mentioned before I send anything off.

To touch on what you mentioned about uploading something and getting 10million like to where all of a sudden you have to start playing a ton of shows, I would be chomping at the bit to go out and make it happen. When else would you get a chance to do something like this in your regular life? Getting pretty much a paid trip to see new places and meet new people and perhaps a chance to meet new best friends yet ull have for the rest of your life? The last time I took my band on the road was a 4 day tour with three dates and a total distance of 1300 miles(2092Kilometers) one way. While we met a lot of people and I’ve kept in touch with a handful of them since, we looked at the tour as more of a challenge to see if we could pull it off and not kill ourselves in the process. We were able to give 110% at each show (except my vocals in Los Angeles were a little strained due to we were out there when the wildfires were burning in 2018) and most importantly we all had fun.

You seem fairly negative regarding music you have heard a million times. I’m like that with some songs, but you don’t listen to those for a while. Then com back to them. You mentioned Santana. I never liked them and loathe the song you mentioned, so that’s of no consequence to me. But I am a big Stones fan and can always listen to that band no matter how many times I have heard anything by them. Same thing with Judas Priest, Vader, Possessed, UFO, Saxon, Raison D’Etre, Stratvm Terror, Jackson 5, Etta James, etc.... Classical music I listened to a lot during college, not so much now, no one takes a old famous symphony and re-edits it with a new vision or interpretation out of fear of being seen as a heretic. Every form of music can be covered and given a new interpretation of a song except classical, why? I guess this is why I listen to dark ambient music and see those musicians as the classical composers of today. Guitarists tried to put a new spin on classical music, but it fell short and rapidly reduced to a penis waving contest to show who had a better mastery of music theory and the mechanical prowess to pull it off. The only one who somewhat escaped that was Malmsteen with his album Rising Force. Everything afterward was just different spins on that album. The only guy who transcends shred masturbatory albums is Steve Vai as he takes a spiritual spin on his playing. Saying that, his albums are rather taxing to listen to in one sitting. I would rather take a song or two of his and add it randomly to playlist and enjoy his playing. Anything more and it bores me.

You mentioned Prince. That dude was a bad motherfucker. Straight up. He played everything on all his albums to include the recording and mixing of the albums. I don’t even think I would be in the remote area of being allowed to restring his guitar. I look at him with great reverence and awe. Another musician like him was Bowie. I look at him the same way. Except Prince was the superior musician.

The way I look at music and what it means to me is like I said in my opener in this post. Music is the conduit through which I converse with the divine. There are times where I will pick up my guitar, sit alone in a dark room and just start playing notes or small phrases and opening myself up to whatever muse or spiritual aspect that wants to hold court. This is also how I meditate. Sometimes I’ll get a whole thought that has nothing to do with music. Sometimes I’ll get a simple 6 note melody or such with a corresponding idea to develop, once I got an entire complete song including lyrics while holding a chord that had turned into feedback which wasn’t even a chord that came from the key the song was in. Are these conversations with spiritual entities? No idea I like to think so and describe them as such. Other times I’ll just pick up a guitar and start playing and not meditating or anything and something as simple as a picking pattern will turn the creative on. When any of it happens though, I will ride it until I run out of ideas, or understand that I’m done for the time being. It’s times like these where I will get the endorphin rush a runner will get running by creating new music. Playing live is even better when you get locked into the bio-feedback of performer and audience who are getting off to your music. There is no better drug than that in the world.

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Old 07-08-2020, 02:42 PM   #19
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Just wanted to add that when I lived in Leipzig, there was a huge library, especially for music, famous companies printed the compositions of Beethoven, Chopin and and and there (Breitkopf&Härtel, CFPeters and many more. And there were all private letters of Chopin, Mozart, Schuhmann and many more. It's a controversal thing to release so personal and private things, but I was curious and this way you could get a better picture of the personality of those musicians. Leipzig was the city of Bach, Mendelsohn Bartholdy, Clara and Robert Schuhmann, Edvard Grieg, Ignaz Moscheles, Gustav Mahler, Max Reger, Johann Adam Hiller, Richard Wagner, even Mozart, Beethoven and Chopin were there. Most people think Vienna was the main city of classical music, but Leipzig, too and Leipzig had JS Bach!
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Old 07-08-2020, 02:59 PM   #20
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I never ever heard anyone playing the simple (it's not simple at all!) solo of Purple Rain as good as Prince did, because no one is able to, simple as that. What you need is deep feeling for that solo, more feeling than all guitarists I named in the beginning together
That's because it's his song expressing his emotions... however, that song structure is also a fairly basic gospel/blues progression. Of other greats who approach that same territory in their own creations, there are some not as good, some as good and some better. Which was kind of my point, it's greatest to whom it impressed the most at the right moment, for others, someone else and some other moment - that value in music differs for every single person.
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Old 07-08-2020, 03:41 PM   #21
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:...the key to awesome and touching music is simplicity! If you could ask Bach, Mozart, Chopin and Beethoven, what would they answer to the question of what one of the most important things in music is, it's simplicity. Mozart was the master of
I sort of see what you mean but I think I disagree. Try dissecting a Bach fugue or a late Beethoven string quartet. The opposite of simple I would say. Certainly they tax my ability to discern what is going on even while being transported by the music...

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Old 07-08-2020, 11:08 PM   #22
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I did not say that these componists did not write complicated stuff, too.
But the consumer is touched way more by simple melodies.
I can watch Al di Meola and say "wow, great technique". It touches my brain, but not my emotions. I can not even remember one song or pereformance of Al, I mean I could not sing you a melody of the main guitar solo of a composition, although I listened to some compisitiobs a lot, too.
Ask me for Beatles songs. I like the Beatles a lot, but I am not a fan, you remember their songs after first listen. I would not necessarily say Beatles made better music than Al di Meola, but you are touched by his music in a different way imo And I like both worlds eg the completely free style fusion performance of eg John McLaughlin and a simple song by eg Elvis.
In Leipzig they made a survey to find out Bach's most popular composition, consumers were asked, not music experts, music is for consumers, we sometimes forget that fact. I am pretty sure he wrote it in Koethen, in Leipzig he wrote for god "soli deo gloria !"
It is this Bach composition

https://youtu.be/rrVDATvUitA

I think it is hard to make a more simple composition. It sounds like heaven, doesn't it?

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Old 07-08-2020, 11:56 PM   #23
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Two more examples

Mozart piano concerto KV 488

https://youtu.be/j8e0fBlvEMQ

Or

Bill Evans playin Chopin
"Blue interlude"

This one is killing me, maybe I am too emotional, but beauty can kill.
I played both, Mozart and Chopin, on piano and always had to take a rest after playing, emotional overdose!

https://youtu.be/ZWU8kD6gWyg

Chopin's original

https://youtu.be/SHa0_h8ALK4

Chopin admired Bach and Mozart for their ability making simple compositions.
But he also could:

https://youtu.be/HiwPzHJ-Pic

Mozart s music even has the power to cure. Whenever I have a headache, I do not take a pill, I listen to Mozart... Do not know whether it would work for you, too

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Old 07-09-2020, 11:17 AM   #24
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Default Music is like life!

Music is like life!
It can be happy, funny, sad, boring, illustrating, interesting, engaging, entertaining, ...

When I was about 13 years old, I got attracted to Jazz. This is still my major interest. But I also listen to rock, blues and pop, country, classical music. Youtube is a goldmine for me. But I also still buy CDs and MP3s. I love variety.

The most important thing is that the artist can transport his/her emotion. Some music I can listen to often, or, after some time, again, and again (e.g. the music of Gil Evans & Miles Davis, Charles Mingus, Sting, to name a few). The really great people have "character" and touch people in any setting (Bruce Springsteen, Ed Sheeran, Marcus Miller, Freddy Mercury, Yo Yo Ma, Jacob Collier). Such people "live" music.

I think it is very difficult to write a simple melody that everybody can remember. I admire Paul McCartney & Co. for this. On the other hand I also am fascinated by the sound scape of Gil Evans who worked endlessly on the same chord to get it right. Look at the brilliance of Jacob Collier who at his young age is a multi-instrumentalist and has very deep thoughts about musical concepts (as far as I understand).

I do not listen to mainstream radio stations. I just don't like most contemporary so-called pop stars. Strangely, I do sometimes check out initial/blind auditions of The Voice and AGT/BGT/X-factor (e.g Alice Fredenham singing 'My Funny Valentine', Rocket man with Andreas Kümmert or Janet Devlin Your song). But I usually loose interest after such people got "remade" by the coaches/"professional" stylists etc.

I think I cannot be without music. One of my greatest fears is losing my hearing due to age/health issues.

And the end, the nice thing is, everybody can make music and listen to music as to his/her own interest and liking.
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Old 07-10-2020, 12:10 AM   #25
Bjorn.LaSanche
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Edited my earlier post. Just bumping to top for Naji
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Old 07-10-2020, 03:06 AM   #26
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I like your explicit post btw, Bjorn. LaSanche
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Old 07-24-2020, 07:55 AM   #27
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The music is a big price for me, I now see as the geniuses they are like Nina Simone, Stevie Wonder, Paul Simon, Jeff Beck, Aretha Franklin, Bela Fleck, Chris Thile etc. In India are love american music
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Old 07-24-2020, 11:21 AM   #28
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Hmmm, Hendrix was an untalented beginner?

Music is actually the vibrations that drive the universe in harmony. So every time we play we are making the universe more harmonious. We are all unsung and unpaid heroes and we need to play a bit more right now so that all of our current woes can be dissolved.

btw the Universe is in the key of D
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Old 07-24-2020, 11:38 AM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hindu Stan View Post
Hmmm, Hendrix was an untalented beginner?

Music is actually the vibrations that drive the universe in harmony. So every time we play we are making the universe more harmonious. We are all unsung and unpaid heroes and we need to play a bit more right now so that all of our current woes can be dissolved.

btw the Universe is in the key of D
But what sort of tuning system does the universe use? Just intonation, or meantone, well or equal temperament etc.? Sadly I don't think the universe cares in the least what sounds we make. The important thing is we do.
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Old 07-24-2020, 11:43 AM   #30
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Quote:
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btw the Universe is in the key of D
B minor.
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Old 07-24-2020, 01:00 PM   #31
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The secrets of the cosmos have been revealed unto me. I, and I alone have determined the key of the universe. Heresy and diminished chords will be punished. Strapped into a comfy chair with re-runs of Lawrence Welk Orchestra on 11
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Old 07-24-2020, 01:02 PM   #32
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Aren’t we talking about just intonation and not equality of temperaments?
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Old 07-24-2020, 01:59 PM   #33
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Quote:
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Aren’t we talking about just intonation and not equality of temperaments?
D minor, then. And that's the saddest of all keys.

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Old 07-25-2020, 01:41 AM   #34
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It's C maj7
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