How to auto crossfade new takes?

[shooby]

Hi there,

I'm searching my a** of for a solution. I think there was a previous version of reaper what did this automaticly.

I'm trying to record new takes like punch ins. But Reaper always creates a fade-out fade-in at the punch in of the new take. There must be a way to make a crossfade automaticly. It drives me nuts to fix all those punch ins.

Thanks for your help!!

[Seagurt1979]

Same problem.. Any ideas?

[typhonj]

Main toolbar icon or 'Option' menu 'Auto crossfade media item when editing' or keyboard shortcut ALT+X

[Seagurt1979]

It doesn't work

[typhonj]

Then;

[explodingPSYCH]

typhonj,

That still doesn't work. I believe he's asking about automatic crossfades for recording new takes, not crossfades when splitting items, or fade in/fade outs.

I'd love a solution to this as well. It seems like a HUGE feature to be missing.

[typhonj]

Then, I'm sorry because I may not understand well what's asked;

[explodingPSYCH]

What your current gif shows is called "FADE IN/FADE OUT" which as the name suggests, is not CROSSfading, but rather, fading out to silence, then fading in from silence to the new take.

This feature sounds HORRIBLE on punching in guitar, vocals... and everything else I've tried it on.

What I (and the original poster) are looking for is an automatic CROSSFADE on the new take, NOT a fade in fade out.


I'm not even sure why you are checking the second box in your example, as it only applies to splitting items, and you are recording a new Take.

edit:

out of curiousity, does your example sound usable to you? It looks like your wave form is being chopped pretty badly by the fade in/fade out. I'm drawing a blank as to when you'd ever want to use fade out/fade in.

[typhonj]

Well, the question was ambiguous as I thought he was looking at getting rids of fade in/out and cross-fades.

But I got it now;



I will strongly suggest you to do a little tour of record modes/options that can simply be found under 'Main menu' -> 'Options', top of the options menu, they are all there!

As for my choppy sound, it isn't, it was a simple piano sound I was using for those demos.

Checking of the second option is only and habit!

Good luck

[explodingPSYCH]

I actually am familiar with this way of making crossfades work. It's a reasonable work around, but I still think there should be an option for auto crossfade for the main record mode.

The reason the main record mode exists is because it's typically more convenient to not have to pre-select and area to record. Especially in situations where a performer is punching phrases over the top of one another throughout an entire song. The ending of each recorded passage is impossible to predict (making the end of the selection safest put at the end of the song) and if you're not recording to a click, then it seems just as easy to hit play, then hit record where you want your punch to occur.

Of course this also leaves room for the accidental recording a good take in regular record mode, ending up without a cross fade, and having a click hidden in your mix to hunt down later.

I appreciate you pointing out and illustrating all these methods. Hopefully others who come looking for this feature will see the alternatives that might work for them. From my searching on the forum the functionality I'm describing appears to be a feature that's been requested for a couple years now.


EDIT:

Wait, maybe this isn't a good work around. Didn't you just move out of Takes mode? This whole thread was about crossfading TAKES. Your first example didn't involve crossfading (but fade out/in) and your second example doesn't involve takes.

[typhonj]

Yep, no way to have it cross-fading, sad isn't it!

[ashcat_lt]

I generally don't have much trouble with fade-out/in as long as they're fast enough and the split is put at some reasonable spot. If you just arbitrarily start splitting things and splicing in other things and you end up interrupting ringing notes and whatever it can be noticeable, but that would be true - and in fact could be much worse - with crossfading.

Honestly, I think this whole idea is kind of silly. How can you know if you need a crossfade, how far it should crossfade, exactly where it should start and end, etc until you've actually got both takes to work with? Just drop in and record and go back and clean up the heads and tails later. If you're actually doing enough of this that it really ends up being tedious, then you should probably practice the part a few more times so you can actually play it all the way through without screwing it up so bad. If there are enough just random crossfades in there, it's probably going to sound worse than whatever you're trying to fix. I understand it sounds like it might be nice if this all happened automagically, but it really does need an actual human to make meaningful aesthetic decisions, and if you can't be bothered to do that, then I just don't know what to tell ya.

[explodingPSYCH]

Ashcat, if you don't find crossfades useful, that's fine, but maybe I can least explain why I (and others) find them useful.

I'm not sure where you get your information about automatic crossfades sounding as bad or worse than Fade out/in. A roughly 10ms crossfade is usually ideal, and having the crossfade pre-applied saves the step of creating the fade and gets you right into being able to adjust it's position and length if needed.

An automatic crossfade gives you more options on where to place the edit. You can often place a crossfade right in the middle of a note, which is handy if the passage doesn't have breaks or silence. And if it does have breaks of silence, a fade out/in can interrupt the room noise, which can be very distracting in many types of material.

By giving me more options and not making me having to apply the fades, it allows me to make more "meaningful aesthetic decisions" with my time.

Ableton Live is specifically set up this way, so I can tell you from experience, that automatic crossfades, when applied correctly, sound MUCH better than fade out/ins. Most of the time they are absolutely undetectable. As a matter of fact, Pro Tools even has a work around for this, in it's ability to select multiple audio items and then apply crossfades to each joint.


As far as your opinions on not doing a lot of punch ins, I don't see a useful idea here. I appreciate your general concern with the human element, and I agree, but I don't see a situation in which I tell a client who wants to write a performance on the fly to "go practice more". Especially if it yields exciting results, which it usually does. Maybe you're aversion to doing a lot of punch ins is part of the reason why you don't see the benefit of crossfades?

I can't think of a good reason to NOT have this feature as an option. Can you think of one? It seems like users only gain functionality here. I know that some people might not use it, but I've seen multiple forum posts of people requesting this feature, or asking how to find it and being shocked that it's not possible.

[ashcat_lt]

I never said I don't understand when and why you might want crossfades, but I'm not sure that I agree that it has to be automatic.

Originally Posted by explodingPSYCH

...and having the crossfade pre-applied saves the step of creating the fade and gets you right into being able to adjust it's position and length if needed.

"Changing its position and length" accomplishes the crossfade. Grab the left edge of the new take or the right edge of the old one and drag and if the two end up overlapped, then it's crossfaded. I guess I just see that you'd want to be doing this for each punch anyway.

But whatever. Punching in on tape didn't give us the opportunity for crossfading at all, and neither did cutting and splicing tape. People got along fine for years. It is really nice that we can do so when necessary today, but it's really not always necessary.

[typhonj]

@explodingPSYCH;

Is putting the crossfades afterward is a viable option for you?

Cause, there is an action available that does it. It can easily be hooked to a keyboard shortcut. The action is;

SWS: Crossfade adjacent selected items (move later items)

Be warned though that it is stretching the items, but, since we are talking about very short crossfades it shouldn't be too much of a problem.

[drichard]

+1

I don't think it's a huge feature, but it certainly should be the default behavior. Ideally there would be an option for fade out/in as well.

Originally Posted by explodingPSYCH

typhonj,

That still doesn't work. I believe he's asking about automatic crossfades for recording new takes, not crossfades when splitting items, or fade in/fade outs.

I'd love a solution to this as well. It seems like a HUGE feature to be missing.

[typhonj]

The option for fading in/out is there so that is not the problem as demonstrated in the few licecaps I've posted.

The problem is with crossfades that's not there.

Edit: Just took a look at the FR thread and the last time this feature was asked is in 2012;
http://forum.cockos.com/showthread.p...ight=crossfade

Since then, lots of people asked for more options for when editing crossfades (interesting, isn't it)!

[explodingPSYCH]

Originally Posted by ashcat_lt

I never said I don't understand when and why you might want crossfades, but I'm not sure that I agree that it has to be automatic.

"Changing its position and length" accomplishes the crossfade. Grab the left edge of the new take or the right edge of the old one and drag and if the two end up overlapped, then it's crossfaded. I guess I just see that you'd want to be doing this for each punch anyway.

Reasons why it being automatic is useful:
-It's characteristic of being transparent in more contexts. I shouldn't really have to explain this. It's why crossfades exist at all.
-Number of mouse clicks+drags reduced. In low edits situations this is less of an issue. In situations requiring a high number of edits, it becomes increasingly more useful. (More edits does not always equal worse product.)
-not having to deal with the distracting artifacts from Fade out/in and no fade edits while punching takes makes for a more inspiring work environment.
-removes the chance for human error in forgetting to apply crossfades at a later point, or mis-selecting and only applying some of the crossfades you'd want. (This can lead to having to hunt down clicks you hear later, or having clicks be hidden in more dense mixes. not ideal)

It's more desirable as an automatic feature because there are more places where the edit can fall and sound transparent. This also means that you'll have more situations where your punch doesn't need to be adjusted at all. If I have X number of crossfades I want to use on a punch take, even if i have to adjust the position of every crossfade, I've still cut the number of clicks+drags in half. This also retains your ability to switch Takes and retain a crossfade... and that Take is also more likely to have a transparent edit.


If there were a way to apply fades after the fact, that'd be a reasonable work around. This is basically the same as Protools functionality, but I've found that having crossfades while doing the punches is more pleasant on the ear and more inspiring for the performer. There is also the chance that you either mistakenly don't select all the items you want to crossfade, or you forget to apply your crossfades after the fact. Again, this might seem like a small point of failure, but all these things add up. It may not apply to your workflow, but just because you don't need it, doesn't mean it's not needed. You could even find it useful if you had it and not even realize it!

Also from my admittedly limited tape splicing experience, I don't think it's reasonable to compare computer splicing to tape splicing. If you are using your DAW as nothing more than a tape machine replacement, then that's fine, but it seems unreasonable to expect that everyone else is going to use it in such a basic way. Especially Reaper, where customization seems to be part of the culture. Really this argument of "people got along fine without it" could be used against almost any feature that wasn't present on previous technology.

Personally I'm really confused about the cliche forum response posts that basically amounts to "why would you want to do that?" I've never had the urge to make a post questioning's someone's motives for a feature I don't use. I assume they have their reasons and that input on how to best solve the problem is more appropriate to the conversation.

[ashcat_lt]

OTOH - sometimes people get a form of tunnel vision where they've convinced themselves - with perfectly reasonable arguments - that something might be easier or better and a little of devils advocate can help shake up their thinking and get them considering if maybe there are other ways which will work just as well.

I kind if dont think I could trust any automatic crossfade to actually land where I want it. Yes, crossfading may smear things enough that it "doesn't matter" if it's exact, but that kind of feels lazy to me...

But anyway, how do you see this working. Is Reaper going to start recording a little early so that it's fully faded in at the actual punch point? That works if you're selecting an area or setting a punch point ahead of time, but not if you're just clicking the big red button. So you'd need to learn how to hit record 10ms before where you actually want it break over, cause you can really only pull the left edge of that new take rightward. If you try to pull it left, there's nothing there, and by default it will loop and you'll be crossfading into the end of the new take. I bet you could get the feel for that, but it would take some practice.

[explodingPSYCH]

Originally Posted by typhonj

The option for fading in/out is there so that is not the problem as demonstrated in the few licecaps I've posted.

The problem is with crossfades that's not there.

Edit: Just took a look at the FR thread and the last time this feature was asked is in 2012;
http://forum.cockos.com/showthread.p...ight=crossfade

Since then, lots of people asked for more options for when editing crossfades (interesting, isn't it)!

It's not a popular request for sure. And I only describe it as "HUGE" for my own personal use as it's one of the few things that sticks out like a sore thumb in my work flow. Really a compliment to how well everything else in Reaper works.

I think part of it's lack in popularity is that it is generally something that can be worked around or something that isn't noticeable until it is. It's more of an "oh yeah, that's still missing!" kind of problem.

Honestly if the feature were added tomorrow, I'm not sure how many people would even notice, even if it was on by default! A feature like this could actually clean up edits people didn't even notice weren't as clean as they could be.


I also wonder if part of this debate about usefulness isn't a genre issue. For example, tracks and projects where gates are almost never used are also ones where crossfading is most important to me. Also if the music is more open and less layered, crossfades become more useful, where fade out/ins become more noticeable. This would likely be different on a rock record where you're doing a decent amount of gating... Or where noise floor is being covered by other instrumentation.


I think it's worth appreciating that there are a lot of contexts where only a crossfade will do, and in situations where a fade out/in is acceptable, a crossfade will also be acceptable.

[typhonj]

@Ashcat;

I don't want to jump in but, as an idea;
You know that Loop points and time selection can be un-linked in preferences, so, why not to have them integrating something like this;



I don't see this as being very complicated, isn't it(?)

[typhonj]

@Ex;

My point was only; being a dev myself (for other things) we used to say that 'Necessity is the mother of inventions'!
So I can see them, as a small team, being much more busy by other requests!

This doesn't mean at all that it wouldn't be usefull. We simply have to nail it all the way down and maybe they'll do it one day!

That being said;
What about my proposal in using action to put them afterward(?)

[explodingPSYCH]

Originally Posted by ashcat_lt

OTOH - sometimes people get a form of tunnel vision where they've convinced themselves - with perfectly reasonable arguments - that something might be easier or better and a little of devils advocate can help shake up their thinking and get them considering if maybe there are other ways which will work just as well.

I kind if dont think I could trust any automatic crossfade to actually land where I want it. Yes, crossfading may smear things enough that it "doesn't matter" if it's exact, but that kind of feels lazy to me...

But anyway, how do you see this working. Is Reaper going to start recording a little early so that it's fully faded in at the actual punch point? That works if you're selecting an area or setting a punch point ahead of time, but not if you're just clicking the big red button. So you'd need to learn how to hit record 10ms before where you actually want it break over, cause you can really only pull the left edge of that new take rightward. If you try to pull it left, there's nothing there, and by default it will loop and you'll be crossfading into the end of the new take. I bet you could get the feel for that, but it would take some practice.

Ashcat, it seems like we might be talking past each other a little bit.

What alternative edit default could you "trust to actually land where I want it"?

I'm not saying that a crossfade will land where I want it, but that from my experience, the crossfade can land in more places and still sound natural. If it falls in a place that doesn't sound natural, I can catch that earlier while working on my punches, but only if it is applied automatically.

Also, by having it created automatically, you save mouse clicks, which becomes increasingly more valuable the more editing you are doing.

Even if I have to move every crossfade, I have still cut my number of mouse clicks in half by having automatic crossfades because I do not have to click+drag to create the fade, then click and drag the fade to where I want it. I save even more time if I'm using a grid, as I won't have to deactivate snapping every time I create a crossfade manually.

If you're picturing 10ms crossfades as "smearing" you might have the wrong idea about what they actually sound like. Longer crossfades, and of course improperly placed crossfades may have that effect, but you'll get as bad or worse from long or improperly placed fade out/ins or no fades.

You may want to take a moment and consider comparing a 10ms crossfade to a 10ms fade out/in and then see if you consider one a better default option than another. Or are either better than no fade option and having to adjust clicks from mismatched audio items.

I'm curious what your current default is and how you like it. Do you use fade out/ins or no fades? Are you happy to trust these options to fall correctly? Or are you manually adjusting these as well?

[explodingPSYCH]

Originally Posted by typhonj

@Ex;

My point was only; being a dev myself (for other things) we used to say that 'Necessity is the mother of inventions'!
So I can see them, as a small team, being much more busy by other requests!

This doesn't mean at all that it wouldn't be usefull. We simply have to nail it all the way down and maybe they'll do it one day!

That being said;
What about my proposal in using action to put them afterward(?)

I appreciate trying to "nail it all the way down".

Putting them in afterwards is a good work around, but it opens room for human error, as I've mentioned before. It doesn't happen often, but I could see a realistic situation where I get distracted and forget to apply the fades, or where I select all but one or two things, or some other type of mis-selection.

Also by not having them applied automatically, you lose the ability to hear them in context as you are working, which is valuable for reviewing how they sound and where they are placed, as would be the case with any method of joining two audio items.

I would be afraid of doing the method you described for it's risk of changing the tonal characteristics via time stretching (if I understand your suggestion correctly).

Thanks for the suggestion though. I've always been curious about possible solutions in SWS.

[drichard]

I understand why it's important to you, and others that work like you. It's not huge to me because I stopped using punch-in a long time ago. When I first started with a DAW I used it like a tape machine, with punch-in and out, etc. But now I simply start recording a new take from a little before the punch-in point, and do a quick edit later to find the best virtual "punch-in point" using the Xfade/edit spot. In many cases I get a little more continuity to the edited take, and sometimes moving the edit point improves the resulting performance.

But I agree completely, auto xfade at punch-in should be the default.

Originally Posted by explodingPSYCH

It's not a popular request for sure. And I only describe it as "HUGE" for my own personal use as it's one of the few things that sticks out like a sore thumb in my work flow. Really a compliment to how well everything else in Reaper works.

I think part of it's lack in popularity is that it is generally something that can be worked around or something that isn't noticeable until it is. It's more of an "oh yeah, that's still missing!" kind of problem.

Honestly if the feature were added tomorrow, I'm not sure how many people would even notice, even if it was on by default! A feature like this could actually clean up edits people didn't even notice weren't as clean as they could be.


I also wonder if part of this debate about usefulness isn't a genre issue. For example, tracks and projects where gates are almost never used are also ones where crossfading is most important to me. Also if the music is more open and less layered, crossfades become more useful, where fade out/ins become more noticeable. This would likely be different on a rock record where you're doing a decent amount of gating... Or where noise floor is being covered by other instrumentation.


I think it's worth appreciating that there are a lot of contexts where only a crossfade will do, and in situations where a fade out/in is acceptable, a crossfade will also be acceptable.

[explodingPSYCH]

Originally Posted by drichard

I understand why it's important to you, and others that work like you. It's not huge to me because I stopped using punch-in a long time ago. When I first started with a DAW I used it like a tape machine, with punch-in and out, etc. But now I simply start recording a new take from a little before the punch-in point, and do a quick edit later to find the best virtual "punch-in point" using the Xfade/edit spot. In many cases I get a little more continuity to the edited take, and sometimes moving the edit point improves the resulting performance.

But I agree completely, auto xfade at punch-in should be the default.

Thanks drichard!

Actually I do the same. I'm just using the term "Punch In" to mean anytime you're adding to a previous phrase on the same track that will cause overlap. I spend 99% of my time in normal record mode and just hit record a few moments before the new phrase is suppose to start, or as soon as the performer starts playing, which ever comes first. These are additional variables that would make an auto crossfade handy!

[Gianfini]

Originally Posted by ashcat_lt

Honestly, I think this whole idea is kind of silly. How can you know if you need a crossfade, how far it should crossfade, exactly where it should start and end, etc until you've actually got both takes to work with? Just drop in and record and go back and clean up the heads and tails later.

In case you have to substitute a similar "sound" on an existing one: say on a vocal your singer is a bit off during a single WORD or small Phrase but the rest was perfect. Then you ask him to re-sing, paying attention to that phrase, and you punch-in exactly just on that phrase

In this case you want BIG TIME a crossfade, since you have a much similar material that you want to seemlessly integrate in the song

There's no right or wrong, but crossfading when puch-in should be an option. Logic for example does it by default

g

[Gianfini]

Originally Posted by ashcat_lt

But whatever. Punching in on tape didn't give us the opportunity for crossfading at all, and neither did cutting and splicing tape. People got along fine for years. It is really nice that we can do so when necessary today, but it's really not always necessary.

Yep, people got along for centuries without cars, mobile phones and brick houses...

Sorry no negativism intended, I just couldn't resist

g

[Gianfini]

Anyway ++1 to have this as an option, hope devs would read this

[AkeW]

I was pretty surprised when my punch-ins were _not_ crossfaded.

I definitely want crossfaded punch-ins as an option - and it probably should be the default also.

[mfan]

Is there a formal feature request for this? Big +1 from me.

Also, @typhonj, could you please elaborate a little bit about your idea of unlinking loop points and time selection to have a cross-fade region? Are you saying this is doable currently and automatically? That is exactly what I need.

[Triode]

This is a few years old but there's a script/sws workaround: check from post #24 on this thread

https://forum.cockos.com/showthread....72#post2025272

[explodingPSYCH]

New Feature requests with links to posts and feature requests taking back to 2008 posted here:

https://forum.cockos.com/showthread....87#post2177687


Please go visit and comment and see if we can get this feature request/bug that's over a decade old addressed!!!