COCKOS
CONFEDERATED FORUMS
Cockos : REAPER : NINJAM : Forums
Forum Home : Register : FAQ : Members List : Search :
Old 08-30-2010, 05:33 AM   #1
gpk
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Posts: 2
Default Real time ... (open source)

Hi,

Does anyone know of any open source projects for real time rehearing over the internet? Something like a software equivalent of Jamlink perhaps? I guess there is of course the commercial eJamming.

Or is this that might be supported in Ninjam in the future?

I notice on the Ninjam home page it mentions "Limitations of note: sound hardware latency (>5ms), perceptual CODEC latency (>20ms), plus typical and theoretical network latency (>40ms)."
With modern hardware and broadband connections I wonder if these figures are rather pessimistic. e.g. hardware latency of <5ms is not uncommon, and on a good internet connection (non-interleaved) a one-way ping time of 10ms is quite possible with a reasonable packet size. With a nominal target latency of say 20-30ms it seems like this should be do-able now??

I noticed Musigy a few years back but it came and went!

Thanks for any suggestions!
gpk is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-30-2010, 10:57 AM   #2
pljones
Human being with feelings
 
pljones's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: London, UK
Posts: 598
Default

There's no way to overcome network latency and jitter to provide a real-time experience over the internet. You have to be pretty close to someone to get much under 50ms ping.

However, that said, JACK has a network plugin (netjack) you can use... not sure if it'll work over the internet, though. I've used it to connect my Linux box (no h/w audio) to my Windows box okay.
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tony Williams
...Playing fast around the drums is one thing. But to play with people for others, to listen to, that's something else. That's a whole other world.
pljones is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-04-2010, 06:58 AM   #3
AndyMc
Human being with feelings
 
AndyMc's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 441
Default

There's lots of stuff around that is meant to do that but as PlJones said it still doesn't overcome network latency, even LAN software can have latency just from the time it takes to encode in realtime.
This has been overcome but uses a lot more bandwidth which makes it unworkable on the Internet.
But with the net becoming faster then maybe within 10 years this will be possible, then every person with a mouse will be getting automated music software they just click and it will be hard to define skill compared to automation.

I think NINJAM though has given a lot of people the confidence to go join a band and play live.

NINJAM is restrictive in some ways but then in other ways it really does help with a persons progression in music skills.
It's like a ladder, as you get better, people you knew that were better then start to become reachable targets to achieve, and a lot is learnt from hearing them play.

NINJAM maybe free but I don't know if it exactly wants to promote other software's.
Because many other software's fail as they will until the net becomes quick enough, and many others try to use NINJAM's concept as their own then profit from it but again fail, some just give NINJAM another GUI and try profit from it and again fail. But in the end, NINJAM is NINJAM and for me it's the only music collaboration software that works, and it's FREE!

The only thing NINJAM needs is better, easier audio configuration, as does REAPER, and a easier looking GUI for new comers easier use.

It's open source but all we ever see is poor gui's, things just turned on and off then they try wrap it up in a zip and try make NINJAM there's.

Would be nice to see some programmer's do some adjustments and setup themselves a donation button, this way people can have NINJAM for free still but appreciate the add-ons others create.
Instead of people making adjustments and nothing more than cosmetic adjustments then trying to rename and re-brand NINJAM as their own.
__________________
Latest Shit (looking for singers): http://www.soundcloud.com/AndyMcProducer
Twitter (@AndyMcProducer): http://www.twitter.com/AndyMcProducer
Facebook Page: http://www.facebook.com/AndyMcProducer

Last edited by AndyMc; 09-04-2010 at 07:04 AM.
AndyMc is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-07-2010, 10:21 AM   #4
gpk
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Posts: 2
Default

Thanks for the replies, I must say I was surprised that network latency and encoding delay are still a problem these days. I use some organ software (Hauptwerk) that gives very low latency on suitable hardware even when running from compressed audio samples. I guess it depends a bit on the algorithms and on the quality, but then if this stuff was easy then someone would surely have done it! Maybe the demise of Musigy was inevitable, until the technology catches up a bit.

>have to be pretty close to someone to get much under 50ms ping
Until BT cocked my line up which ended up with interleaving being needed I could ping many UK IPs in just over 20ms (on a pretty slow connection i.e. 1000 down/200 up). France added about 10 - 20ms depending on destination, and a bigger packet (100 - 200 bytes say) adds a further 5 - 10ms. So you can see where my maths was going (when you halve these figures to get single trip), assuming also a faster connection than I currently have.

Thanks again,
gpk

Last edited by gpk; 09-07-2010 at 10:31 AM. Reason: forgot to mention ping stuff
gpk is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-07-2010, 10:36 AM   #5
pljones
Human being with feelings
 
pljones's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: London, UK
Posts: 598
Default

There are physical constraints on network latency, based on the actual infrastructure -- i.e. a signal running through a copper wire can only carry so much information per second. As the copper gets shorter and the fibre backbones get nearer, things should improve. But even then, there are limits. In ten years, we'll probably be down to 100ms ping across the globe. That really will change the way things can work.
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tony Williams
...Playing fast around the drums is one thing. But to play with people for others, to listen to, that's something else. That's a whole other world.
pljones is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-27-2011, 01:53 PM   #6
Krillo
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Posts: 104
Default

Check out Soundjack:
www.soundjack.eu
Krillo is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 07:10 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, vBulletin Solutions Inc.