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Old 12-03-2010, 04:57 PM   #1
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Default >> V4 Theme : The Theme Team requests appearance discussion

Please don't post in this thread until you've read this post.

You now have an alpha of the Default V4 theme, which I have created with the Theme Team, and we will continue to develop it. The Theme Team is a collective of some of the most experienced and talented Reaper themers from around the world, gathered together online and motivated by a love of theming Reaper and of making the theme the best it could be for Reaper's many users. These people have my utmost respect and gratitude, and I believe deserve yours too. Designing in a team is always challenging, particularly across language gaps and time zones, but I am a strong believer that it can yield the best results and is a strong extension of REAPER's development ethos. For the benefit of our team workflow, the Theme Team will not communicate directly here in the forum, though I may pass on messages and may post to clarify and inform on my personal interpretation.

Invitations of members to the V4 theme team were freely decided by the members of the V3 theme team. To avoid anyone (quite possibly wrongly) feeling left out, this will not be discussed, so please don't even ask - no good could come of it.

New in V4 we are including the development of the theme into the prerelease cycle so that the wisdom and experience of you, the users, can be incorporated into the theme's development. This is an experiment that may or may not work out for the best, but is most certainly worth trying. Please note, however, that this is not an exercise in 'design by democracy' - that may sound appealing, but I assure you that the results would be execrable. I request that you all engage in this experiment with care, maturity, patience and intelligence. If the experiment fails please remember that the Theme Team is ultimately responsible to its own instincts and experience of what will best suit all users (not just those on this forum) and to the satisfaction of Cockos, but if the experiment succeeds then we will have a blueprint for how future themes can be better developed as a true and exciting reflection of Reaper's users. The determination of how well this experiment works out is in the hands of you, the community.

__________________________________________________ ______________________


** The Theme Team requests : APPEARANCE DISCUSSION **

Please use this thread to, by discussion amongst yourselves, feedback to the Theme Team on the appearance of the Default 4 theme as it is developed. These will often be be subjective qualities of personal taste; the styling of colour, tone, and shape. There is another thread for your objective interaction feedback, please understand the difference as we are applying it here (and help each other to understand the difference) and choose your thread appropriately.

Some of the appearance goals of the theme:
  • Eliminate, wherever possible, ambiguity. WALTER allows us to assign as much (or as little) space as is needed for an element to do its job well. A good example of this is the IO button; previously space issues restricted us to various schemes to indicate the master / send / receive status of the track. We can now take the space to make that message very clearly, on every track, with full words. Experienced Reaper users will likely find they don't need this level of clarity, they can effortlessly interpret (for example) an icon based representation, but we favour a solution that benefits all users including casual, occasional or new Reaper users. If this is ever in conflict with efforts to make the interface attractive, the lack of ambiguity is favoured.
  • We do not have a marketing department screaming at us to make a flashy interface to generate sales. This is a strength to be recognised. Wherever there may be conflict, favour long-term usability over superficial appeal.
  • Size : Walter opens the possibility of themers making themes that are ideally suited to very small screens, so to a certain degree we do not have to cater for 'all controls at very small sizes' situations that V3 themes may have been effective at. Avoid if possible, but if taking more space would get the job done much better, do it.
  • 'Buttons' in Reaper can be a button, or an indicator, or both a button and an indicator. Some buttons are state changing push buttons, while others summon a drop down or a window. If this might cause confusion or inaccurate expectation of the function of the button, style to avoid it.
  • Use styling to visually 'grade' controls by their importance, making them less or more easy to find at a glance. Group elements that will often be used in combination during common workflows. Grade and group using position, colour, styling and selective use of 3D.
  • Ensure that selected state is always clear. Always.
  • Have an overall brightness of around 50%

Please remember than in subjective matters there is no 'right answer' and simply expressing your personal preference is far less useful than you might think; this is not meant to be your perfect theme, nor mine or anyone else's. It has a job to do, we need to drill down to discover what that job is, how well it is doing it, and what can be done to improve it.

Please also remember that almost everything is a balancing act. If you consider something to be "Too XXXX" then it is probably because we decided to make it "Less YYYY", and most likely after some thought. Think of these things as a slider. An example:

[X ] --------------------------------V-------------------------------- [Y]

X : Positives: Each individual element is more easy to visually find, one element is rarely mistaken for another. Negatives : Overall appearance can seem busy and intimidating.
Y : Positives: Overall appearance is relaxed, approachable and 'easy on the eyes'. Negatives : Visually finding the individual element you are looking for can take longer, one element can be easy to mistake for another.

Choosing where to put that slider between X and Y is a difficult balancing act that requires thought. In this example, new or occasional users would benefit from the positives of more X, whereas experienced users would have less trouble with the negative values of more Y, and so would like the fact that it looks more appealing. We need to make these decisions, and if you put some careful thought to the matter, you will realise that these sliders are everywhere in the job at hand. I'm sure you can think of others.

We look forward to your discussions. Thanks!


************* v *************** READ THIS ************* v ***************

You are being asked how we can make the very best of the tools we currently have.
There is no practical value in making Feature Requests to the Theme Team.
Discussion of Feature Requests will only cloud or derail the clear communication of user feedback.
There are other threads for your Feature Requests. Please take them there.

************* ^ *************** READ THIS ************* ^ ***************
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Old 12-03-2010, 05:13 PM   #2
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The only things that I can offer are broad strokes:

1) Although the look is "seemingly" sleeker than previous themes, the whole thing is a bit "chunky." It now takes about twice as much height in the tcp to display the same elements, and many of them seem needlessly "ornate" or "chic" with plenty of simulated depth and light, and they're large.

2) It's a bit dark and lacking contrast. In the arrange, the whole thing except for the arrange background and the track panels seems to run together.

On the plus side, I like the flat approach to parts of the transport and would love it if this could be extended.

And also people are going to be wanting a vertical meter option.

Edit: Oh yeah, folder buttons are great, no need to waste anymore space with them.

Last edited by run, megalodon; 12-03-2010 at 09:04 PM.
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Old 12-03-2010, 05:19 PM   #3
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edit3: please just ignore this whole post and read this instead: http://forum.cockos.com/showpost.php...17&postcount=2

----

generally, think it looks great (or at least, a great start) - no issues with the color scheme/overall look.

i'm having big issues with folder tracks in the TCP though.

it's not immediately clear which are the folder children or how deep they are (which was clear in r3, mainly as a side effect of the meters not lining up). now that the meters look clean, we've lost that initial visual cue for that.

the current r4 layout is so clean that some of the important visual cues are lost.

thanks again for all your hard work and tolerance of robust discussion, it's appreciated.

edit2: looks like adamwathan has similar but much better ideas in here: http://forum.cockos.com/showthread.php?t=69928 - i actually prefer his mockup, oops.
Attached Images
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Old 12-03-2010, 05:20 PM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by run, megalodon View Post
And also people are going to be wanting a vertical meter option.
just in case you don't know, that's trivially added to the current r4 themes, search the prerelease forum.
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Old 12-03-2010, 05:26 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dub3000 View Post
just in case you don't know, that's trivially added to the current r4 themes, search the prerelease forum.
Thanks, I know how to do it, but I think people will want that "out of the box."
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Old 12-03-2010, 05:39 PM   #6
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the midi editor is currently blinding bright next to the main window witch makes the midi editor toolbar buttons look very dark & unambitious, & the selected TCP/MCP is to bright compared to the rest of the GUI IMO


also more contrast between sharps & flats in the piano roll IMO

the folder buttons are a bit small/unambitious IMO

MCP default layout is great! so is the TCP layout but it needs to be rather big to show all controls, IMO


hope this post is in the right thread & dose not break any rules

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Old 12-03-2010, 06:06 PM   #7
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Default This is such a great idea

Maybe these are not the ideas you want but perhaps they are so will post them


-It would be great to have the default blend for time selection set in such a way that the items create a different tone for the white time selection than empty space does, at the moment not having a difference in time selection contrast when it's over items to when it's over empty space detracts greatly from the "marque" idea.

-For me at least The contrast between un-selected items and selected items is not that strong especially once the time selection gets involved too.

As soon as you start colouring items and tracks it gets hard to see what's selected and what's not, I have the white line for items enabled too which helps a bit.

Also I feel the same about track selection, I edited my theme so that when a tcp/mcp track was selected I would get a thin white line around the edge of both the tcp and mcp panel as well as brightening the selected panel too.

- should be able to have very long names and when you change track height or width (in the tcp) the name should be able to adapt to stand on it's own (although this might be better as an additional tcp layout)

Last edited by musicbynumbers; 12-03-2010 at 06:22 PM.
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Old 12-03-2010, 06:15 PM   #8
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My nitpicks:

1. The FX button doesn't look like a button
2. Phase button doesn't look like a button (maybe it would also look better if the background graphic would merge with the fader background)
3. Non-readable Pan readout with certain pan/width settings
4. The "Record: time selection auto punch" transport button shows the "circle" graphic with different width than the "circle" on the other record mode buttons. I also think it would look better if the record buttons all would have a filled circle graphic (to make it more differnt looking to the Repeat button).
5. I/O button doesn't really look good in the Media Explorer and the Metronome settings
6. Selected tracks have a bad contrast (white + light grey).
7. The old program icon was better looking (silver like).


http://forum.cockos.com/showpost.php...7&postcount=83
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Old 12-03-2010, 06:16 PM   #9
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im not crazy on the metering. IMO mono tracks should have single meters, very distracting to look at when you're screen is full of meters.

also, i think its already mentioned but could there be a way of assigning a layout to a button on the channell so we could quickly flick between views. ie from standard to large meters and back again... without haing to go thru menus? (not sure if this is a feature request or something thats already possible?)

track name backgrounds are too dark and interfering with custom colours.

also, and this would make life a lot easier. is there a way to create a "blank strip" to use as a divider. it would be a very handy visual aid on larger mixes.
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Old 12-03-2010, 06:22 PM   #10
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personally i'm a little hazy on the limitations and abilities of walter. so far, i only find that in tcp view i'd rather have the pan width slider beneath the regular pan slider, and also have some sort of visual cue as to which is which such as is found in mixer view. also i don't like how the toolbar buttons move and change size depending on width of track pane.

apart from that, my only request so far, without really knowing much about walter, is that i can continue to use my current theme with the new default theme. for instance it's great that the width pan slider uses the same images as the regular pan slider, because this will work well with my current theme.

one thing i find would be cool that i don't know if walter can do would be to have the swing control in the piano roll function by either typing in the percentage desired as it is right now, but also a click and drag up or down will slide the values up or down.

to be honest the current theme i have right now i love for the tools available right now. but if there can be better functionality integrated into the interface via walter, then that might be interesting, i only worry that doing so will bring me more kind of headaches because i'll have to get these new features working in the context of my current theme, which is not something i'm incredibly excited to do.

does walter allow for plugins to be skinned individually?
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Old 12-03-2010, 06:24 PM   #11
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Overall I love the new buttons with big names and easy to see what's going on but I agree with all the below too and also the clickable folder icon needs to be bigger plus more defined folder indents too.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dstruct View Post
My nitpicks:

1. The FX button doesn't look like a button
2. Phase button doesn't look like a button (maybe it would also look better if the background graphic would merge with the fader background)
3. Non-readable Pan readout with certain pan/width settings
4. The "Record: time selection auto punch" transport button shows the "circle" graphic with different width than the "circle" on the other record mode buttons. I also think it would look better if the record buttons all would have a filled circle graphic (to make it more differnt looking to the Repeat button).
5. I/O button doesn't really look good in the Media Explorer and the Metronome settings
6. Selected tracks have a bad contrast (white + light grey).
7. The old program icon was better looking (silver like).


http://forum.cockos.com/showpost.php...7&postcount=83
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Old 12-03-2010, 06:27 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by musicbynumbers View Post
also the clickable folder icon needs to be bigger
Why do we need this button at all? I never use it. I'm always building folders via drag'n'drop ...
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Old 12-03-2010, 06:31 PM   #13
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i take it the 'theme team' has perused this thread for some initial thoughts also -

http://forum.cockos.com/showthread.p...107#post630107

Its great (and brave)to see that the mob is being allowed some input on the theme particularly with walter increasing the scope by multiple times.. many thanks.

---

personally i'm not digging the toolbar buttons at the moment.
transparent faders.. not sure.
arm button - dunno, perhaps lacking in importance.

transport buttons are ok its just the graphics upon them are too similar in appearance shape size colour etc
- its quite easy to hit wrong thing if your doing things at speed.

metering db scales - is it possible to drop alternate numbers or the scale altogether when the meter get small or something? - EDIT - mostly for master fader rms values - tracks do act quite sensibly on resize, my apologees

as stated many times so far, the monitor buttons are possibly in wrong place and definately have a 'what state am i in?' personality disorder.

Last edited by BenK-msx; 12-03-2010 at 06:37 PM.
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Old 12-03-2010, 06:33 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dstruct View Post
Why do we need this button at all? I never use it. I'm always building folders via drag'n'drop ...
I don't use it either but drag-n-drop (though I can see some people may use it because they're used to it from v3).
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Old 12-03-2010, 06:36 PM   #15
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1. I am definitely not liking that track name is merged with VU meter. This needs to be dumped.

2. Buttons should all have a hover and pressed state. These are currently missing.

3. I completely dislike the folder system. v3 was much better in this regard.

4. MCP looks a bit better, however depending on certain docker sizes (mine doesn't take half of screen, for example) meter numbers are too cramped.

5. The theme, as it is now, is too blocky. Need more curves: tabs, buttons, transport. Make it round.

6. Add vertical meters to v4 theme too.

7. I actually liked default v3 toolbar buttons. They were actually buttons!

8. Master track slider is too big in comparison to its VU meter. They should be the same size, ideally. In this case, it means completely rethinking how master track is done and all its elements positioned.


That will be all... for now!
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Old 12-03-2010, 06:42 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dstruct View Post
5. I/O button doesn't really look good in the Media Explorer...
I agree - though it never has IMO. It's always just re-used the same graphic as used in the TCP (or MCP?) I think - and becasue it's larger, it just stretches to fit, giving it a slightly 'blurred' quality. Not sure if that's still the same situation here, but if it is, maybe it's time it became its own independent theme element and png.
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Old 12-03-2010, 07:08 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BenK-msx View Post
transparent faders.. not sure.
Yeah, solid fader caps would look better.


Quote:
Originally Posted by BenK-msx View Post
transport buttons are ok its just the graphics upon them are too similar in appearance shape size colour etc
- its quite easy to hit wrong thing if your doing things at speed.
Yeah. Why not coloring their backgrounds? Red filled record button etc ...
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Old 12-03-2010, 07:10 PM   #18
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Docker:

Bold font for the label of the active tab (as we have it on active project tab)!
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Old 12-03-2010, 07:23 PM   #19
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like transparent faders here- is this not a theme-able change?
I like the track names merged with VU meter.
for now
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Old 12-03-2010, 07:28 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EvilDragon View Post
1. I am definitely not liking that track name is merged with VU meter. This needs to be dumped.
I disagree - I actually really like this aspect of the R4 theme. Looks neater I think, and is economical with space. The R1 - R4 TCP meters always just looked out of place to me - just 'plonked' on as an afterthought.

Having said that, I ended up opting to not show meters in the TCP - not sure how the R4 theme will look under that preference (it's not, infact, possible to disable the TCP meters in the R4 theme - the preference doesn't overide! - looks like Walter maybe overides user preferences!)

Quote:
Originally Posted by EvilDragon View Post
4. MCP looks a bit better, however depending on certain docker sizes (mine doesn't take half of screen, for example) meter numbers are too cramped
I think the Master panel looks too small - especially the VU display. It's all numbers and no meters! Cramped as you say. Plus, now that the other mixer panels have that rounded bottom (sexy!), the angular look of the Master VU panel looks out of place. Don't know the solution to that, but it needs to be bigger I think. Or a selction of options like the rest of the mixer panels.
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Old 12-03-2010, 07:29 PM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by musicbynumbers View Post
The contrast between un-selected items and selected items is not that strong especially once the time selection gets involved too.
yep. agree. white and damn near white on my monitor.
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Old 12-03-2010, 07:42 PM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bennisixx View Post
like transparent faders here- is this not a theme-able change?
What about selected track(s) = solid fader caps?
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Old 12-03-2010, 07:58 PM   #23
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I like having the track name merged with the vu meter.

Buttons def need a hover and pressed state.

Needs a tad more contrast.

Other than that I'm loving it. How about a command to automatically set every track to a random color at once? Or, maybe the panel to the right of each track inspector that shows the track number...maybe right clicking can bring up a color pallette?
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Old 12-03-2010, 08:11 PM   #24
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How about some kind of layout per track?

For those who like the track names inside the meters, I disagree.
Somehow, could this be optional? Walter can already move the vu meters and track names separate for a version 3 theme. Is this possible for the new 4 theme?
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Old 12-03-2010, 08:15 PM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dstruct View Post
Why do we need this button at all? I never use it. I'm always building folders via drag'n'drop ...
I mean the one to collapse folders

I don't use the other one either.
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Old 12-03-2010, 08:19 PM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WyattRice View Post
How about some kind of layout per track?

For those who like the track names inside the meters, I disagree.
Somehow, could this be optional? Walter can already move the vu meters and track names separate for a version 3 theme. Is this possible for the new 4 theme?
I think (and hope) that this would be the way forward for the final theme, to find say 3 overall set-ups that please everyone and include them with the theme in the new layout section.

It's never going to work to please everyone in one theme but with say 3 fully thought out options for main tcp and mcp I think we can get there and then vote on which one should be the default.
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Old 12-03-2010, 09:28 PM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EvilDragon View Post
1. I am definitely not liking that track name is merged with VU meter. This needs to be dumped.
Actually that's my favourite part of the default theme, the meters on every size track trump the vertical meters imo...I think they look great, and I really like the colouring. I also like the transport and the way the meters align now.

Sadly, I'm just not into the overall green aspect, the solo lit is not bright enough, the track textbox colouring looks washed out or dull, and the toolbar buttons are too dark for me... that said, I haven't been able to use anything other than Paula2 and my variations of it for some time, so it's not just you WT. Guess I'll be using Paula2 and only switch to the default to check metering on small tracks, at least until Max makes a V4 theme...sorry!
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Old 12-03-2010, 11:50 PM   #28
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Quote:
1. I am definitely not liking that track name is merged with VU meter. This needs to be dumped.
i'm afraid i disagree that it should be "dumped." i like how they are merged, but would appreciate the option otherwise.
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Old 12-04-2010, 12:48 AM   #29
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a special version of the theme for laptop/small screen users with less eyecandy.
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Old 12-04-2010, 01:09 AM   #30
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I suggest removing the volume fader slider when less then
a certain width, as it offers potentially extreme volume changes
(-inf / +24) by just clicking the button accidentally. Especially
when the track is at it's smallest width.

[img]http://img683.**************/img683/6540/trackmin.jpg[/img]

Since there is no feature yet to replace it with vertical fader,
a rotary button, or a similar concept that Cubase has of enlarging
the fader while dragging, removing it completely would be my
choice.

Also making pan not overlap other elements would be appropriate.
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Old 12-04-2010, 01:12 AM   #31
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Small gripe
Colour on track labels is now to dull to be useable. I am using tint track panel backgrounds which works ok, but the solo and mute buttons need stronger colours, track colour seems to bleed into solo,mute buttons.

Big request
To try and please most users, could we not have...say 10 basic layouts and shortcuts to switch between them....eg windows+1, windows+2 etc. The default could make it easier for new users, and everyone else could use their track layout of choice, and easily jump between them.
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Old 12-04-2010, 01:15 AM   #32
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I agree with dub3000.....folder tracks need a little help. V3 was more clear.

DB

Quote:
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edit3: please just ignore this whole post and read this instead: http://forum.cockos.com/showpost.php...17&postcount=2

----

generally, think it looks great (or at least, a great start) - no issues with the color scheme/overall look.

i'm having big issues with folder tracks in the TCP though.

it's not immediately clear which are the folder children or how deep they are (which was clear in r3, mainly as a side effect of the meters not lining up). now that the meters look clean, we've lost that initial visual cue for that.

the current r4 layout is so clean that some of the important visual cues are lost.

thanks again for all your hard work and tolerance of robust discussion, it's appreciated.

edit2: looks like adamwathan has similar but much better ideas in here: http://forum.cockos.com/showthread.php?t=69928 - i actually prefer his mockup, oops.
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Old 12-04-2010, 02:19 AM   #33
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I can get used to this, but I've done thisa few times, so for general usability I think it's worth a thought

basically when i go to select a track, i keep clicking on the VU meter and getting the I\O dialogue


</script><noscript>[IMG]http://img33.**************/img33/1028/screenshot20101204at208.png[/IMG]<
though if the track is playing it's quite clear

[IMG]http://img715.**************/img715/1028/screenshot20101204at208.png[/IMG]</noscript>

so i think if there was an outline or a change in shade where the VU's are, it would be clearer which is track selection and I\O selection when playback isn't runnin

I'm used to it now, though since i did it a bunch of times, it seemed worth mentioning
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Old 12-04-2010, 02:42 AM   #34
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Ok this is only my opinion and only meant as constructive criticism, I will no doubt use a custom theme that I mostly ripped from the excellent work of Mr Tie.

My criticism.

The labeled buttons use more space then necessary resulting in less space for faders and metering.

The whole theme feels to bulky ,Transport for example seems massive (I guess this all depends what resolution you are viewing at)

The mute and solo seem to sit on top wear as the rest is flat .

The nice round rec arm buttons look a bit blocky round the edges (I know theres not a lot that can be done about this but maybe less contrast?)

I Like the overall feel and clarity and all so like the name blending into the meters.

I'm really not keen on the toolbar buttons but these are easily swapped.

Overall I know this is going to be a great theme and loved by most.....
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Old 12-04-2010, 02:48 AM   #35
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in v4 when you arm one track for recording there is no input information on vumeter as in v3, well this form to show input information in vumeter area is not necesary to be here, but input information needs to be showed in some part of the track area
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Old 12-04-2010, 03:08 AM   #36
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the I wish was different:

this:

should have a pull down menu that matches it instead of a generic grey thing that swings out to the right:


especially when the little triangle down area is making me expect an input list that matches the parent's style. it kind of makes it fake looking. like "look at me, I'm going to be a pretty menu - FOOOLED YOOOU!"

maybe at least have

Input: Mono
Input: Sterep
Input: MIDI
Input: None

match the theme well, expand the same width as the themed input selector and then swing out to the right for the sub menus...

Last edited by pixeltarian; 12-04-2010 at 03:15 AM.
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Old 12-04-2010, 04:05 AM   #37
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1st
I know the instruction is to have a 50% brightness, but due to all those flashy websites MANY users would lower the brightness. Also if not, if I come from any normal website the contrast in Reaper is to small. It is like someone would put my laptop asleep
- MORE CONTRAST, MORE LIGHT COLOURS

2nd
There is no need to have a separate column with a track number!!!
It only uses a lot of space both in TCP as MCP (who looks at the numbers anyway). I would prefer myself to have it prior to the track name (BTW I like to have it in VU meter as well - saves space and it is visible and transparent enough).
- NO SEPARATE COLUMN FOR TRACK NUMBERS

3rd
The volume fader Button is to big. It invites you to do to big moves ...
- MAKE A SMALLER VOLUME FADER BUTTON

4th
Arm Record button is not descriptive. It should be a bit smaller, red and it should have a R or AR as description. This would take no space and instead of a circle a letter would be better.
- MAKE A SMALLER ARM RECORD BUTTON WITH A "R" LETTER IN IT

5th
Buttons should not have default descriptive or functional text (Send, RCV, MASTER, TRIM ...) as it looks to busy and it takes space.
Instead why not have the function visible in the button image as IO was meant in the 3.0 (plus make a third image for the master function)?
It would free a lot of space. Anyway we have the tool-type text which can have all this included, so no need to have it next to the buttons.
- BUTTONS ONLY - NO (FUNCTIONAL) TEXT PLEASE!

6th
we still have a grey-black-grey line on the top, which takes space:

- REMOVE THAT USELESS LINES AND FREE SPACE

Thanks for your attention. Hope it was useful.
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Old 12-04-2010, 04:49 AM   #38
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Thanks for the discussion chaps, please keep it going. Please respond to what each other have said; the opinion of the individual is of almost zero value unless you also provide reasoning behind why it is of value, and thus cause a discussion in which your point of view is found to be compelling.

Numerous things in the alpha are there because they are just the first throw of the dice on that solution, but most have been thought through in great depth. Therefore, please try to make a guess at why something has been done one way, what the reasoning was behind that, and why your alternative solution should be considered. Help us all toward the informed decision. I would like it if I could engage each and every one of you in detailed discussion and explanation, but that's simply not going to be practical. If in doubt, assume we're not stupid

Some of you have been FRing in this thread already. Stop that; it is the very purest definition of 'noise' because your FRs will not be seen by anyone who can do anything about them, so you're wasting your breath but filling space. C'mon now. If it continues I may have to start doing some <snip> in your posts, and I don't want to do that because its rude. Help me out.

I'm not going to be able to keep doing this, but here is some reaction to some points.

Quote:
Originally Posted by run, megalodon View Post
It now takes about twice as much height in the tcp to display the same elements
Proof please. Also, I would point out that much more information is being provided in the same space; full envelope mode in text, full IO descriptors. These are hard won workflow wins, so they're not going to be removed without some really compelling discussion.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dstruct View Post
1. The FX button doesn't look like a button
2. Phase button doesn't look like a button (maybe it would also look better if the background graphic would merge with the fader background)
Correct. They don't look like buttons. I think you can assume that there's a certain amount of ability within the theme team for making something look like a button, and therefore that we have done this for a reason. Please try to figure out what that reason might be, present a counter argument, and we will see if its persuasive.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dstruct View Post
5. I/O button doesn't really look good in the Media Explorer and the Metronome settings
Again, please try to give a why. Otherwise its easy for someone else to give a differing subjective view, without reasoning, and we will have learned nothing. Let me make an example:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dstruct View Post
7. The old program icon was better looking (silver like).
No it wasn't.

...see, that wasn't a very constructive discussion, was it? Heh But who's to say which of us is pointing the way forwards when neither of us provided a reasoning? I hope that makes sense.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rhythmtech View Post
IMO mono tracks should have single meters, very distracting to look at when you're screen is full of meters.

also, i think its already mentioned but could there be a way of assigning a layout to a button on the channell so we could quickly flick between views. ie from standard to large meters and back again... without haing to go thru menus? (not sure if this is a feature request or something thats already possible?)

track name backgrounds are too dark and interfering with custom colours.
These are FRs. No FRs please.


Quote:
Originally Posted by EvilDragon View Post
2. Buttons should all have a hover and pressed state. These are currently missing.
Agreed, very little 3 state stuff has been done yet.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Dstruct View Post
What about selected track(s) = solid fader caps?
That can't be done. As regards the transparent faders : they let you see when you are close to / lined up with the zero line without us needing to take space (or reduce the fader size) to overshoot the zero lines under the fader. I also like that they are a continuation of an idea from the V3 theme.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jeffsanders View Post
How about a command to automatically set every track to a random color at once? Or, maybe the panel to the right of each track inspector that shows the track number...maybe right clicking can bring up a color pallette?
Are you FRing sir? Hmmm? Shall I fetch the stick?

Quote:
Originally Posted by musicbynumbers View Post
It's never going to work to please everyone in one theme but with say 3 fully thought out options for main tcp and mcp I think we can get there and then vote on which one should be the default.
NO. This is not a democracy, this is a case of 'best argument wins.' Sorry, but that's just how it has to be. And we're not going to fall into the trap of saying "we couldn't get this right so we just offered lots of choice." We make this the best it can be; the user's choice is then whether to use the def theme or a different theme.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Phisk View Post
a special version of the theme for laptop/small screen users with less eyecandy.
No, that's something for different, specialised themes. Walter is going to be a godsend for specialised themes. I myself have a "Extreme_Pixel_Miser" theme in the works ...for my slate. Reaper's themability is an asset, it makes little sense to pretend its not there. The default needs to work well on small screens, well on giant screens, and best on average screens. What those screen sizes are is, of course, a matter for discussion.

We most certainly need to provide layouts that are better suited for smaller screens or those with limited space.

Quote:
Originally Posted by EricM View Post
I suggest removing the volume fader slider when less then a certain width... ...also making pan not overlap other elements would be appropriate.
It is not yet clear what additional functionality will be available in Walter for special behaviour at minimum widths, so much of this has simply been left as 'to be done' for now.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jedstar2000 View Post
The labeled buttons use more space then necessary resulting in less space for faders and metering.
I would say they use as much space is as necessary to do their job with an acceptable level of reduced ambiguity. The less space for faders and meters is indeed a consequence. That's why its been done that way, but we're open to hearing reasoned argument of how the why might be wrong, or better addressed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jedstar2000 View Post
The mute and solo seem to sit on top wear as the rest is flat.
Yes; this is because a) they are 2(ish)-state push buttons, and b)of control grading. Making the most important elements the easiest to find is akin to making the most important instruments stand out in your mix. You can do this with comparative volume, eq, compression, reverb amount ...we do it with comparative size, colour, styling and 3D-ness. And we don't want to do a mix where 'everything is louder than everything else' and also not an ambient style 'everything sits back into a chilled wash of music'.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jedstar2000 View Post
The nice round rec arm buttons look a bit blocky round the edges (I know theres not a lot that can be done about this but maybe less contrast?
Agreed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by pixeltarian View Post
the I wish was different:
should have a pull down menu that matches it instead of a generic grey thing that swings out to the right:
FR police. License and registration please.
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Old 12-04-2010, 04:56 AM   #39
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I thought that was the whole point of the layouts? So that within one theme you could keep the overall look but give options on whether to have things like vertical meters, long filenames etc?
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Old 12-04-2010, 05:14 AM   #40
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<Snipped> oopsy I thought this is possible somehow
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Thanks devs for adding the abillity to use single click to change a single velocity And single right click to remove a single note without dragging.
much appreciated.

Last edited by Reflected; 12-04-2010 at 06:04 AM. Reason: no FRs please.
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