Old 12-02-2010, 03:08 PM   #41
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This:
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Originally Posted by ceanganb View Post
Hoping for something like VST Expression in Cubase, basic notation features maybe. And, certainly, improvements in CC handling.
And this:
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Originally Posted by LFO View Post
Ok, so at the risk of sounding disappointed...

I've played with v4 MIDI and I am underwhelmed. Perhaps I was living in fantasy land based on all the FRs that I've been supporting. I really thought we would see some major changes and improvements to the MIDI editor. Maybe Cockos just hasn't implemented it yet in the alpha code, I've no clue. I sure do hope so.

MIDI tabs or just being able to select multiple MIDI tracks (ala DP) would have been a very welcome addition. Smoother CC data editing (ala FL) would have been terrific. The list goes on and on.

I guess the audio side has to be the priority, but dang it us MIDI folks need love too! Lol!
...
What do you guys think? Am I whining? I hope not! Just want to voice that the lack of a significant MIDI editor is missed by at least one MIDI head.
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Old 12-02-2010, 03:39 PM   #42
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I hear you. I played around with Music Master Works as a secondary editor about 2 years ago.

But as I recall, you can't have the two programs playback at the same time - one of the two programs has a lock on the MIDI file at a time. In order to hear your edits in the secondary editor, you'd have to close out and play in REAPER (unless I'm missing something).
'Close audio-device when stopped and application is inactive'?


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Don't get me wrong - I realize that I'm in the minority. I understand that REAPER will evolve as a collaboration between the dev's vision and input from a majority of the userbase.

I'm not even sure you're that much in the minority. I would like it as well - even if just to store all data (or at least all references to it) that belongs to a song in one place.

(personally I need it more for printing than for editing purposes)

All I'm saying is that there is currently a workaround which is far from being terrible or unusable.
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Old 12-02-2010, 05:24 PM   #43
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Ok, so at the risk of sounding disappointed...

I've played with v4 MIDI and I am underwhelmed. Perhaps I was living in fantasy land based on all the FRs that I've been supporting. I really thought we would see some major changes and improvements to the MIDI editor. Maybe Cockos just hasn't implemented it yet in the alpha code, I've no clue. I sure do hope so.

MIDI tabs or just being able to select multiple MIDI tracks (ala DP) would have been a very welcome addition. Smoother CC data editing (ala FL) would have been terrific. The list goes on and on.

I guess the audio side has to be the priority, but dang it us MIDI folks need love too! Lol!

Don't get me wrong, MIDI is perfectly functional for me currently. I can get done what I need to do. It just isn't as convenient or fast as with competing products.

What do you guys think? Am I whining? I hope not! Just want to voice that the lack of a significant MIDI editor is missed by at least one MIDI head.

-Kevin
I dont think youre whing in the least.

After all hullabaloo and feature requests during v3 i would have thought that most of these would have been a given. Its the number one gripe and diss from other MIDI users, beat makers, EDM and electronic producers about REAPER. I keep telling my friends how damn good it is but theyre having the last laugh at the moment.

It is still early days, but its not that early? If we were to expect such new features in v4 then surely they would be here now in some rudimentary form?

Im really deflated personally. I dont care what it looks like and the way things stand re editing, routing, tracking etc is fine for me. The only thing dragging ints knuckles is MIDI.

Fingers crossed.
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Old 12-02-2010, 05:27 PM   #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LFO
Smoother CC data editing (ala FL) would have been terrific.
+1

.
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Old 12-02-2010, 06:16 PM   #45
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I dont think youre whing in the least.

After all hullabaloo and feature requests during v3 i would have thought that most of these would have been a given. Its the number one gripe and diss from other MIDI users, beat makers, EDM and electronic producers about REAPER. I keep telling my friends how damn good it is but theyre having the last laugh at the moment.

...

The only thing dragging ints knuckles is MIDI.

Fingers crossed.
I'd just like to say that *mixing* in REAPER is AMAZING! I'm only really interested in MIDI advancements at this point. Yes, there are some audio things that could be added, (some have been since V4alpha) but audio in this program is really fantastic (at least for me.)

I really hope MIDI makes some serious advancements before V4 is official. I don't know about anyone else, but I won't purchase a V5 license unless we can select multiple MIDI items within one MIDI Editor (I'm good through v4.99.) This may seem like an absurd thing to say, but it would save me so much time, it's ridiculous.

There have been some great MIDI advancements for V4alpha:
- The loop selection moves through the note area
- You can adjust the loop selection from the horizontal note/CC lane divider
- Mouse modifiers for the MIDI Editor (and elsewhere) are GREAT!

This really comes down to what I consider basic MIDI workflow enhancements which have been lacking far longer than I would have expected. This expectation is relative to the amazing features we have in other areas of REAPER. To me, it isn't so much what it does now, it's what it isn't doing (yet.)

Here's hoping!

Thanks,
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Old 12-03-2010, 12:12 AM   #46
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If you don't think that either Finale or Sibelious or any other of the dedicated notation programs deliver, how do you think Reaper would be able to? I use both Finale and Sib and they are both feature rich. Why duplicate the effort?

-Kevin
Tell me again, how much does Sibelius cost?

Sibelius does wonderful things from what I've seen of it, but it's a sledgehammer to crack a nut, and it's also prohibitively expensive, and using it or Finale with Reaper would negate one of the main advantages of Reaper.

Also, as I previously mentioned, I've never found a satisfactory way of using an external notation editor. To use a buzzword that goes around here a lot, it just isn't good for 'workflow'.

I don't understand why there is so much negativity towards me personally (not from you, but from others who've replied). Reaper definitely does need a notation editing facility. It's almost as if some people here are actively opposed to a useful feature, simply because they don't need it.

Meanwhile, I'm left waiting to use Reaper for an album - I have work to do, and people telling me I'm wrong to ask for a required tool for the job.
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Old 12-03-2010, 12:23 AM   #47
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Speaking purely for myself, the thing I miss most in MIDI editing is a hybrid staff/piano roll editor, which I know will never be implemented because I am probably the only person on here that has ever used one.
BUT

I agree 100% that the ability to select multiple tracks is core.

Surely SOME sort of elementary score screen for editing cant be THAT difficult to implement?
If as most people requesting this seem happy to settle for something basic you can shag a quick part into, it is not like we are asking Cockos to rewrite Sibelius for Reaper.
No coder and undoubtedly showing my ignorance.
can you vote twice on FRs?
(grin)
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Old 12-03-2010, 12:46 AM   #48
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Move Quantize function outside the MIDI editor. Allow quantizing multiple items simultaneously. Add quantize presets.

that's for MIDI...

and include an option to quantize items (instead of MIDI events), and you've got 100x the power.
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Old 12-03-2010, 12:48 AM   #49
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Default More midi stuff please

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I am probably the only person on here that has ever used one.
No you certainly are not!

I'd really like to see some kind of simple staff view (for multiple tracks at once!) as a tool while composing too (there is no workaround for that), not a fully fletched score editor like Finale or Sibellius (which could still be used for printing out proper scores).

Though I have to admit there are a lot of other really important midi features Reaper needs, some of them have already been mentioned in this thread. So I too hope that some of that stuff makes it into version 4.

Reapers Audio side is fantastic and like nothing else (and keeps getting better) while the midi side unfortunately still misses some pretty basic stuff (and I don't mean OSC).
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Old 12-03-2010, 01:47 AM   #50
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Yeah, the MIDI features so far has been really underwhelming. I'm really hoping we'll see some more during this cycle.
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Old 12-03-2010, 01:54 AM   #51
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I hope they make the MIDI editor somehow extensible, I'd be glad of trying something to empower the MIDI editing functions.

- Mario
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Old 12-03-2010, 02:06 AM   #52
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Gromit
You have very convincingly explained all. Earlier I didn't support necessity of the musical editor in Reaper. And never used it in others DAW, only Sibelius. Now I agree.
The similar situation forces me to be nervous, when I am compelled to use Cubase only with one purpose - to make high-grade midi - file. Reaper can't do it now.
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Old 12-03-2010, 03:02 AM   #53
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Originally Posted by Gromit View Post
Tell me again, how much does Sibelius cost?
Musescore is free and actually works great - a few niggles aside...

Quote:
Also, as I previously mentioned, I've never found a satisfactory way of using an external notation editor. To use a buzzword that goes around here a lot, it just isn't good for 'workflow'.
So what are your exact problems? I don't think you mentioned them yet.
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Old 12-03-2010, 03:04 AM   #54
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I don't understand why there is so much negativity towards me personally (not from you, but from others who've replied).

I don't really think there is any negativity towards you personally. Just a lot of negativity towards the attitude you displayed here in this thread. But I bet you know and understand this already. Who yells gets yelled at - that's just a natural process.
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Old 12-03-2010, 03:32 AM   #55
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This:
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Originally Posted by Evan View Post
Move Quantize function outside the MIDI editor. Allow quantizing multiple items simultaneously. Add quantize presets.

that's for MIDI...

and include an option to quantize items (instead of MIDI events), and you've got 100x the power.
I would love to able to do MIDI processing from the Arrange View (MIDI Quantize, Legato, Humanize, etc.)
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Old 12-03-2010, 04:00 AM   #56
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Default it's needed, but it's not the only thing that is

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Musescore is free and actually works great - a few niggles aside... So what are your exact problems? I don't think you mentioned them yet.
The main disadvantage is you can only open one item/voice at a time. I'd like to use a staff view to get an overview of how different voices/items interact with each other, something that is much easier using musical notation than the piano roll.

Musescore is a great program and Reaper doesn't need a fully fletched sore editor, but something that helps in the process of composing.

Also, let's not turn this into a debate about the necessity of a staff view, there are a lot of other Midi issues in Reaper that need resolving too.
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Old 12-03-2010, 04:31 AM   #57
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I concurr.
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Old 12-03-2010, 07:25 AM   #58
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Reaper definitely does need a notation editing facility. It's almost as if some people here are actively opposed to a useful feature, simply because they don't need it.
I wouldn't worry too much since Schwa has already clearly stated that "Notation is not off the table, lots of people want notation features". (http://forum.cockos.com/showpost.php...&postcount=130).

From this it would seem that, with regard to a built-in notation editor in Reaper, the real question is not "if?" but "when?"...

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Old 12-03-2010, 09:43 AM   #59
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Hope you are right, X.

matthias - we are a small, select band of hybrid stave users, it seems.

Everyone I have explained how it works has gone "wow - cool!" but it never seems to get any further.

But even a yer basic score window would be nice.

Off to look at Jens` recommendation, but I am quite happy firing up the Amiga 1200 if I want to write midi parts for the time being.

Sorry Jens but musescore is pretty lame.
It ticks me off that a crummy 16 bit program on a computer that has not even existed as a current company since 1991 wipes the floor with most of what is out there for stave editing. Unless you reall ypay through the nose and havin gplayed with Sibelius in the early Days I rather doubt it hs improved that MUCH.

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Old 12-03-2010, 10:16 AM   #60
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Hope you are right, X.
Well, it's not just idle guesswork; Schwa has also said "We do plan to implement a notation view..." (http://forum.cockos.com/project.php?issueid=613). I've no reason to doubt what he says, so there seems little point in people arguing about whether or not they think it should be implemented.

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Old 12-03-2010, 10:22 AM   #61
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Event editor: Although it's a little ironic because I don't use this feature very much, I think that entering notes in the "event list" in MIDI should not be such a struggle. For instance, in DP a single click gets you into the note field and tabbing moves you down, etc. In contrast, Reaper has a separate popup window after dbl clicking, which is more cumbersome for workflow.

But again, it wouldn't kill me if it didn't exist but it seems obvious for someone who might use this method of input almost exclusively, as some composers do, in conjunction with notation.
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Old 12-03-2010, 10:42 AM   #62
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i think the issue with standard notation is that it's actually quite complicated to do well. to get soemthing simple would be, ok still not super easy, but easier. but then if that were made, there would be so many complaints about features it doesn't have, about how hard it is to get certain things working properly, i think it would cause more problems than it would solve. sibellius and finale are quite hardcore. even the cubase notation editor is good but still not as good as those.

but for me, personally, i don't see why i'd want that unless it was to export my midi parts into sheet music, which a 3rd party software should be able to do easily.

for writting i find standard notation has alot more to think about, you need to count all your time and everything, and if you put a small delay in something you'll need to account for it in rests and all that. idk, it's alot of headaches for me. and that's why it's complicated to write. i mean play a part in midi on your piano and then put that into a note editor, it will be unreadable, so you would need to quantize first and quantize lengths of notes before having the editor translate it into standard notation, and sometimes this gets bad results.

personally apart from being able to rotate the piano roll 90 degrees, i don't see how writing can be easier than a piano roll. especially if you are playing your parts and not programming them.

i understand though that people are different and that's cool, for a notation editor to be created for those that want to use it is fine by me. but i'm quite certain that even if one was made it would not suffice really for people that want to use it. a notation editor in my eyes, in order to be useable, is a hell of alot of work. especially when you consider comments like musescore sucks too much to use. it's not too likely that reaper's notation editor, a little added feature to the software will way outperform full fledged 3rd party software that does only score editing.

if it was me, i'd give up on that dream and find the best most workflowish way to get what you want from 3rd party software.
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Old 12-03-2010, 12:01 PM   #63
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Originally Posted by EvilDragon View Post
In-project ghosts! All items in the same take line considered as one überitem, visible at once in MIDI editor (think Sonar)! No more blocky CC editing! Proper drum maps! Logical editor! Better and smoother mouse behavior (see FL)! etc. etc. etc.
I would love to see CC editing/lanes/ghosting/all around MIDI upgrades and goodies God, that's #1 to me!! As a MIDI-based composer, that thought just makes me wicked happy!

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Old 12-03-2010, 12:47 PM   #64
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Go on the www.northernsounds.com forum and ask the composers there how well they manage their MIDI orchestrations in REAPER. Though, I bet some of them export the .wavs for mixing in R, using it for MIDI is probably unlikely for many. There are a lot of potential customers in MIDI Land.
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Old 12-03-2010, 01:03 PM   #65
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Go on the www.northernsounds.com forum and ask the composers there how well they manage their MIDI orchestrations in REAPER. Though, I bet some of them export the .wavs for mixing in R, using it for MIDI is probably unlikely for many. There are a lot of potential customers in MIDI Land.
Perhaps this can change, if it's the case

Why do you think that is, that many don't use Reaper for MIDI orch, etc? The biggest MIDI downfall(s) of Reaper.
Mockups, cue, etc.

Just curious.
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Old 12-03-2010, 01:26 PM   #66
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Opinion:

My thinking on Reaper and MIDI is that those tempted to leave their current DAW would "ideally" find "Power and Efficiency" above what they're now used to. Many of Reaper's MIDI functions are already superior to others, but a few things still make working in Reaper less efficient than other programs, and that might discourage potential new customers.

Yes, other DAWs have had a decade or more head start. But strictly from a marketing point of view - what do I want to see in Reaper if I'm sitting on the fence and not strictly into direct live audio recording? Wicked MIDI functionality that makes me go "WOW!"
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Old 12-03-2010, 01:44 PM   #67
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Opinion:

My thinking on Reaper and MIDI is that those tempted to leave their current DAW would "ideally" find "Power and Efficiency" above what they're now used to. Many of Reaper's MIDI functions are already superior to others, but a few things still make working in Reaper less efficient than other programs, and that might discourage potential new customers.

Yes, other DAWs have had a decade or more head start. But strictly from a marketing point of view - what do I want to see in Reaper if I'm sitting on the fence and not strictly into direct live audio recording? Wicked MIDI functionality that makes me go "WOW!"
That literally describes my switch from SONAR PE. Perfectly.

Sadly, yes - some things in Reaper (MIDI) frustrate or confuse me. But I hope, hope that it's addressed soon. Then Reaper can own the DAW world

Just wondering, but in a nutshell, what do you think Reaper's MIDI capabilities/structure lacks that causes the most amount of frustration with new users/power users? (that other big DAWs do offer)
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Old 12-03-2010, 01:56 PM   #68
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If I were Justin I'd pull in another coder to do just MIDI, and be done with it...
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Old 12-03-2010, 02:00 PM   #69
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Rockin'!
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Old 12-03-2010, 02:10 PM   #70
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Once I set aside the familiarity I have with my midi sequencer of choice, I think my main criticism purely from my own opint of view is the lack of transparency of function, which is something I find with a lot of reapers options.

Because the whole DAW has been approached from a completley different direction philosphically from everything I am used to, I find it really difficult to actually find anything.
Partly due to the use of terminology which I find alien, partly because the sheer wealth of features succeeds in masking what is actually there until you have been banging away at it all for a long time.

Unfortunately there is a vocal minority of forum users who insist this is because users like me are dumb or lazy etc etc but the fact is that not everyone comes to Reaper fresh and virginally unsullied, or for that matter equipped with a brain that works in such a right brained sort of way.
Or do I mean left brained?
The one that works best on numbers....

Whilst I can see that potentially Reaper will do pretty much all I will ever need some time inthe future when I have a better handle on it, I have been hanging out here as a registered user since Version 1 and am still not sable to do what I regard as simple midi tasks in Reaper easily.
Sure you can do most things but inelegantly or through a circituitous workaround-stylw method.

Vent over. Back to enjoying wading through 4.03 apha
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Old 12-03-2010, 02:22 PM   #71
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Because the whole DAW has been approached from a completley different direction philosphically from everything I am used to, I find it really difficult to actually find anything.
Partly due to the use of terminology which I find alien, partly because the sheer wealth of features succeeds in masking what is actually there until you have been banging away at it all for a long time.
this isn't meant to be something abrasive, however, if reaper is in this different direction "philosophically" from everything you are used to, you might want to consider changing hosts... it simply may not be for you
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Unfortunately there is a vocal minority of forum users who insist this is because users like me are dumb or lazy etc etc but the fact is that not everyone comes to Reaper fresh and virginally unsullied, or for that matter equipped with a brain that works in such a right brained sort of way.
Or do I mean left brained?
The one that works best on numbers....
that would be left brained. And I think that is quite the inference... Reaper, for me, is an extremely intuitive tool, in all creative aspects... as far as unsullied, I am certainly the former "host-whore," having tried and used for a while several different hosts over the past 10 years. I may want to ask, who is this "vocal minority?" - you might be taking certain things the wrong way, or interpreting things differently than they are intended.
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Whilst I can see that potentially Reaper will do pretty much all I will ever need some time inthe future when I have a better handle on it, I have been hanging out here as a registered user since Version 1 and am still not sable to do what I regard as simple midi tasks in Reaper easily.
Sure you can do most things but inelegantly or through a circituitous workaround-stylw method.
you have had a paid license since v1, assumedly for over 3 years, and you have had such complaints? Man, there are too many host-fish in the sea for you to be wasting your time on one however, inelegant? I can set up macros which are transparent and available with a midi key, toolbar or a menu, or both... (and something tells me the places available for commands will increase after the inception of WALTER) - the midi editor might be lacking some features for some people, but it is a pretty quick editor, and the inline version does some great things too... there are many workflow adjustments that have made things even easier too, the list could go on - I don't know if you are looking for a gold engravement, but I feel that reaper is the MOST elegant solution in many respects. Mainly because I can do what I want to do, not be tied to a specific and restrictive set of commands. As far as circuitous - I don't see how this applies at all.
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Vent over. Back to enjoying wading through 4.03 apha
cool, but why don't you check out the demo of studio one while you're at it? Keep an open mind, and of course I want reaper to have as many users as possible (the more people that buy reaper, the longer I can be assured that my favorite host will stick around), it seems like you are trying to fit into something that just isn't working out
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Old 12-03-2010, 02:28 PM   #72
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But is there truly anything (MIDI) that Reaper cannot do, that other popular DAWs can? Or is it just a matter of workflow/efficiency/approach, but that Reaper can still do everything other DAWs can, just 'differently'?

Ben
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Old 12-03-2010, 02:31 PM   #73
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But is there truly anything (MIDI) that Reaper cannot do, that other popular DAWs can? Or is it just a matter of workflow/efficiency/approach, but that Reaper can still do everything other DAWs can, just 'differently'?

Ben
well, at the moment, there is currently no way to replicate FLstudio's type of midi note insert/delete which is quite easy to use.

there are some midi features we are lacking... don't get me wrong... it really depends on if you can live with it or not...
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Old 12-03-2010, 02:31 PM   #74
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well, at the moment, there is currently no way to replicate FLstudio's type of midi note insert/delete which is quite easy to use.

there are some midi features we are lacking... don't get me wrong... it really depends on if you can live with it or not...
I'm new to Reaper by a few months only, but could you give me a rundown of the top 5 or so "power-user" MIDI features that are simply not doable in Reaper?

I appreciate it!
Thanks,

Ben
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Old 12-03-2010, 02:34 PM   #75
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Editing poly aftertouch is a BITCH, to say the least. What editing, only in event list? And even then, event list could be better and even more informative.


http://forum.cockos.com/project.php?issueid=1099


Even FL can do this now, in exactly the same way pictured in the link above.
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Old 12-03-2010, 03:02 PM   #76
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But is there truly anything (MIDI) that Reaper cannot do, that other popular DAWs can? Or is it just a matter of workflow/efficiency/approach, but that Reaper can still do everything other DAWs can, just 'differently'?

Ben
Well, it's kind of like saying that a handicapped person is "different". He maybe do everything a normal person can , but with less speed and also with more effort. Commendable for an individual, but not for software, especially since you've got alternatives.
Just take browsing through the MIDI items and editing notes. It's cumbersome. If you're a MIDI composer, it's quite fastidious compared to Sonar, Protools and in some aspects, FL Studio. Because there isn't a vision of what MIDI editing should be in Reaper. Therefore, no clever tools, structured window layouts, convenient buttons or clear overall logic for MIDI.
I love Reaper, but I think that since its inception, its creators' motives were more bent towards audio recording than MIDI. It's just the way it is. And it does a great job at what it does.

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Old 12-03-2010, 03:06 PM   #77
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But is there truly anything (MIDI) that Reaper cannot do, that other popular DAWs can? Or is it just a matter of workflow/efficiency/approach, but that Reaper can still do everything other DAWs can, just 'differently'?
Reverse? Invert? I'd really love to use those.
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Old 12-03-2010, 03:09 PM   #78
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Hi.

I am not expecting a staff view really although it would be my number one request (finale is damn expensive and musecore is great for printing), the audio and GUI are done now right? everyone is happy....? moving on to composition?

personally I hate opening an eternal editor, be it destructive audio or midi, really i'm just lazy and don't want to interface the two.....

I thought I would test the alpha by composing a new piece..... anyone else notice that the midi editor feels like all of a sudden going back in time, Im mixing an old piece instead, to try to use the new features... the bastard won't crash... I will look into the bug reports to make it happen

thanks
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Old 12-03-2010, 03:11 PM   #79
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Editing poly aftertouch is a BITCH, to say the least. What editing, only in event list? And even then, event list could be better and even more informative.


http://forum.cockos.com/project.php?issueid=1099


Even FL can do this now, in exactly the same way pictured in the link above.
I loved the Event List in SONAR PE, I used it all the time. I'm that kinda composer


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Well, it's kind of like saying that a handicapped person is "different". He maybe do everything a normal person can , but with less speed and also with more effort. Commendable for an individual, but not for software, especially since you've got alternatives.
Just take browsing through the MIDI items and editing notes. It's cumbersome. If you're a MIDI composer, it's quite fastidious compared to Sonar, Protools and in some aspects, FL Studio. Because there isn't a vision of what MIDI editing should be in Reaper. Therefore, no clever tools, structured window layouts, convenient buttons or clear overall logic for MIDI.
I love Reaper, but I think that since its inception, its creators' motives were more bent towards audio recording than MIDI. It's just the way it is. And it does a great job at what it does.
I hope Reaper focuses heavily on MIDI. Then it would be untouchable.
IMO
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Old 12-03-2010, 03:14 PM   #80
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well, at the moment, there is currently no way to replicate FLstudio's type of midi note insert/delete which is quite easy to use.

there are some midi features we are lacking... don't get me wrong... it really depends on if you can live with it or not...
As any programmer should know, there is no way ever to replicate anything that's been already done by one or many other programmer(s). It's a universal programming law.
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