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06-09-2020, 05:25 PM
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#9481
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Sep 2017
Location: London, England.
Posts: 4,870
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Geoff Waddington
Anyway, just my 2c worth
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Pretty much agree with all of this
I'd be inclined to go even simpler/cheaper. Copy the concepts from the C4 that are really useful:
i) 16 or 32 endless rotary encoders with push. Don't bother with absolute resolution, make them Inc/Dec (optical based, detented)
ii) Each encoder has a two line display and an LED ring. LCD is fine, but make sure it's LED backlit not electro luminescent.
iii) As an optional extra, put 8 or 16 buttons with LED indicators to the side or under the group of 16 or 32 rotaries.
iv) Use the MCU standard for the controls and displays. Pretty sure this is license free, but you should check.
The reason you don't see C4 type controllers on the market is because no one wants to take on the software support to make them viable. To sell in large numbers they would have to be compatible with multiple DAWs and this is a huge headache.
Reaper and Geoff's CSI project presents a unique opportunity as far as plugin control goes. To the best of my knowledge, customisable plugin maps aren't available on any other system- please correct me if I'm wrong
People have been pleading with Avid for years to do this with Eucon and even with a 'closed' enviroment like ProTools they still haven't got round to it.
My advice would be to see if you could prototype a single C4 cell, complete with rotary, push, LED ring and two line display. Use the existing MCU protocol to drive it- the display sysex is probably the trickiest bit and get it hooked up to CSI. If you can complete that you'll have a workable solution and you should have a pretty good idea of unit cost too.
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06-09-2020, 10:34 PM
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#9482
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jun 2018
Posts: 705
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tdc
As it happens, this has been a focus for me for a bit. The largest challenge is the age-old question of target market. On one hand I personally would prefer to pay $1000 for something that is well made, and feels like a precision instrument, but I completely understand and respect that there are plenty of folks who can't or don't wish to pay for this, and really need something simpler.
The team at Monome had made some beautiful controllers, that are pricey, but very well done.
Ultimately, the question of target-market informs all design decisions. The BOM (Bill of Materials) for a device like this can quickly escalate as the quantities for each component are high. Even a very successful kickstarter campaign will only yield a few hundred or perhaps a thousand units, so purchasing power or discounts on components will be marginal.
A typical ALPS encoder that feels nice and has the appropriate fine detail required for audio use, will be around 10-15 USD. OLED's are hugely challenging to find the correct style, that will look decent in all environments, not be prone to burn in, and also be straightforward to program/control. Prices vary as well and can easily run into 50 USD or higher each. As you can see the price starts to climb very quickly.
When you look at the current range of products out in the market, and then start calculating their BOM, it's surprising to see just how challenging it is to make something that is affordable and meets expectations. I have made a number of devices for control that suit my needs of the moment, and are very effective for that task, but scaling that up into an affordable product line is no small challenge. But, I feel its time to consider exploring adding more choice to the OSC Controller market.
I wholeheartedly agree with Geoff's position of controller agnosticism. A device ought to be just a set of hardware components that are assigned function by the software that is controlling them. Toggle, Momentary and Rotary and position indicators and alpha-numeric displays. So this would mean Inc/Dec Encoders that have a visual indication of their current value / position coupled with a visual display to show the name / value of the assigned parameter would be the ideal. Push button encoders would be great, as would being bus-powered via USB. OSC control is a must, but MIDI reversion would be a sensible business strategy.
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Wait. Tdc, are you saying that you are able to put something together?
And that you have decided to move forward with it?
Last edited by siniarch; 06-10-2020 at 12:47 AM.
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06-09-2020, 10:41 PM
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#9483
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Aug 2019
Location: UK
Posts: 65
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Thank you
Quote:
Originally Posted by siniarch
Welcome to CSI.
I would start with the Wiki on Geoff's Signature:
installation and documentation here: https://github.com/malcolmgroves/reaper_csi/wiki
Then download from the link on his signature
Beta software: https://stash.reaper.fm/v/38349/CSI%20beta.zip
I've only been here for a few weeks but I keep coming back because it's very exciting to be able to customize your controller to your specific needs.
I'm not familiar with the Faderport v2, so can't answer those. But feel free to ask anything, everyone is very friendly here.
Once you get it all set up, and if it worked for you, consider donating to the cause. These guys have been working on this for almost 4 years. Specially Geoff.
Good luck.
CSI - You can donate here: geoffwaddington.ca
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Thanks very much. I’ll start playing later.
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06-09-2020, 11:44 PM
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#9484
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jan 2020
Location: Geelong, Victoria, Australia
Posts: 27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Geoff Waddington
I guess I'll turn that around and ask "Why do you need to stay at 10.11 ?".
There must be some reason preventing you from upgrading, maybe approach it from that angle.
What is stopping you from moving to 10.12 ?
Some computer language features that CSI uses are not present earlier than 10.12, so I don't think there is a workaround.
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This iMac was in my study. The one I had in my studio was an old G5 running Cubase LE4. Eventually could not look at anything on the internet with it as it would not load pages correctly. It also ran into a lot of trouble running some of the Cubase tutorial projects.
So moved the iMac from the study into the Studio. New iMac for the study. The machine in my Studio can't be upgraded past 10.11.6
The only other option I would have is to return the older machine to the study and the newer iMac to my Studio.
__________________
iMac OSX 10.11.6 with latest version of Reaper, MOTU micro lite, ESU1808 Audio Interface, Mackie MR8 Monitors, Mackie MCU, Ensoniq ASR-10(OEX-6sr), Ensoniq ESQ-1, microKORG
Oh, and a decided lack of talent and inspiration at the moment.
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06-10-2020, 12:58 AM
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#9485
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jun 2020
Posts: 68
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Hello,
has anybody tried to run CSI under linux?
I have searched a bit the last tens of pages in this thread but couldn't find any info about it.
Thanks.
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06-10-2020, 02:59 AM
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#9486
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Dartmouth, Nova Scotia
Posts: 11,183
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sherazad
Hello,
has anybody tried to run CSI under linux?
I have searched a bit the last tens of pages in this thread but couldn't find any info about it.
Thanks.
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CSI isn't compiled for linux at this time.
__________________
To install you need the CSI Software and Support Files
For installation instructions and documentation see the Wiki
Donate -- via PayPal to waddingtongeoff@gmail.com
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06-10-2020, 03:06 AM
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#9487
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Dartmouth, Nova Scotia
Posts: 11,183
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ramjet1962
This iMac was in my study. The one I had in my studio was an old G5 running Cubase LE4. Eventually could not look at anything on the internet with it as it would not load pages correctly. It also ran into a lot of trouble running some of the Cubase tutorial projects.
So moved the iMac from the study into the Studio. New iMac for the study. The machine in my Studio can't be upgraded past 10.11.6
The only other option I would have is to return the older machine to the study and the newer iMac to my Studio.
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Ahh, got it.
I guess that's a decision you have to make -- 10.11.6 is about 4 years old, that's pretty old in the Apple ecosystem, unlike Windows they like to keep things pretty lively.
__________________
To install you need the CSI Software and Support Files
For installation instructions and documentation see the Wiki
Donate -- via PayPal to waddingtongeoff@gmail.com
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06-10-2020, 06:32 AM
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#9488
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jun 2020
Posts: 68
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Geoff Waddington
CSI isn't compiled for linux at this time.
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Alright, thank you Geoff. Is there any chance it might happen in a near future?
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06-10-2020, 07:55 AM
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#9489
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Nov 2019
Posts: 9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Funkybot
I didn't realize that old link was still up. I've since redone a LOT on the MIDI Fighter Twister mapping to take advantage of the endless encoders, encoder acceleration, and use a more generic naming convention for widgets.
You'll need to use the attached MIDI Fighter Twister settings and send them to the unit. This may require the latest firmware for the device - at least that's the only one I can confirm it'll work on.
This is earlier than I wanted to share (was holding off to see if the re-arch Geoff is working on would offer any changes or advantages), but it should work very well right now. See the included instructions.
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Thank you! I got it running, but some things are still off. I will read about CSI to try to understand a bit better what exactly is going on.
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06-10-2020, 08:09 AM
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#9490
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: New Joisey
Posts: 5,990
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Quote:
Originally Posted by philippas
Thank you! I got it running, but some things are still off. I will read about CSI to try to understand a bit better what exactly is going on.
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Please let me know where things look off. I may be able to explain or maybe you've found a bug. At some point I'll redo the documentation, but I have to start from scratch having swapped over to a new PC and realizing after the fact I hadn't backed up some files I thought I had.
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06-10-2020, 12:23 PM
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#9491
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Dartmouth, Nova Scotia
Posts: 11,183
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sherazad
Alright, thank you Geoff. Is there any chance it might happen in a near future?
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Not planned, will put it on the list, but this is the first ask so it will be low priority.
__________________
To install you need the CSI Software and Support Files
For installation instructions and documentation see the Wiki
Donate -- via PayPal to waddingtongeoff@gmail.com
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06-10-2020, 02:17 PM
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#9492
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Oct 2019
Location: Sydney
Posts: 471
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Quote:
Originally Posted by siniarch
Wait. Tdc, are you saying that you are able to put something together?
And that you have decided to move forward with it?
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Hey Siniarch, just seen that there is a seperate thread for this hardware discussion and have moved my post and reply there.
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06-10-2020, 02:46 PM
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#9493
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Oct 2019
Location: Sydney
Posts: 471
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Hey Geoff, am finally back after a crazy side project, and keen to get back into CSI. I shall try and catch up with all the changes, but I gather you are nearing the end of a refactoring phase?
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06-10-2020, 03:00 PM
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#9494
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Dartmouth, Nova Scotia
Posts: 11,183
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tdc
Hey Geoff, am finally back after a crazy side project, and keen to get back into CSI. I shall try and catch up with all the changes, but I gather you are nearing the end of a refactoring phase?
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Yeah, turned out to be a pretty thorough redesign of the internals -- hasn't been a build in over a month
Should have something in a week or so...
__________________
To install you need the CSI Software and Support Files
For installation instructions and documentation see the Wiki
Donate -- via PayPal to waddingtongeoff@gmail.com
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06-10-2020, 03:12 PM
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#9495
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Oct 2019
Location: Sydney
Posts: 471
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Geoff Waddington
Yeah, turned out to be a pretty thorough redesign of the internals -- hasn't been a build in over a month
Should have something in a week or so...
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Great news - sounds serious. :-)
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06-11-2020, 01:22 AM
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#9496
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jun 2020
Posts: 68
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Geoff Waddington
Not planned, will put it on the list, but this is the first ask so it will be low priority.
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Make sense. Thank you anyway !
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06-11-2020, 03:13 AM
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#9497
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: Krefeld, Germany
Posts: 14,686
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I did not yet find out a way to do this straight forwardly.
Would it be possible / sensible to do use CSI to do an extremely simple application:
Do a software (e.g. in Python) that shows up to 128 buttons and sends osc messages like "/select:17" when an appropriate button is clicked.
CSI fires an action provided by SWS that is called
"SWS/S&M: Live Config #1 - Apply config (MIDI/OSC only)"
with the appropriate Parameter ("action context") given as a value in the OSC message.
-Michael
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06-11-2020, 11:23 AM
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#9498
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Dartmouth, Nova Scotia
Posts: 11,183
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mschnell
I did not yet find out a way to do this straight forwardly.
Would it be possible / sensible to do use CSI to do an extremely simple application:
Do a software (e.g. in Python) that shows up to 128 buttons and sends osc messages like "/select:17" when an appropriate button is clicked.
CSI fires an action provided by SWS that is called
"SWS/S&M: Live Config #1 - Apply config (MIDI/OSC only)"
with the appropriate Parameter ("action context") given as a value in the OSC message.
-Michael
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Maybe I misunderstand, are you saying Reaper actions can take parameters ?
__________________
To install you need the CSI Software and Support Files
For installation instructions and documentation see the Wiki
Donate -- via PayPal to waddingtongeoff@gmail.com
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06-11-2020, 12:42 PM
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#9499
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jan 2020
Posts: 1,927
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I'm looking for a MIDI controller with at least 10-12 knobs to control plugin parameters. The smaller the footprint the better. What are my options as far as what's working with CSI at the moment? I don't really need a lot of bells and whistles (LCD screen, faders, etc.)...already have a Faderport 16 for the heavy lifting, this would be purely for plugin knobs.
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06-11-2020, 12:58 PM
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#9500
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jan 2020
Posts: 1,927
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I should mention Console 1 is outside the range I'm looking to spend on this...I'm looking at things like the Novation Launch Control XL (although a little big for what I need), Faderfox PC4, Nakedboards MC-24, or Behringer X-Touch Mini (would have to get two of those since only 8 knobs).
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06-11-2020, 12:58 PM
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#9501
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: New Joisey
Posts: 5,990
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Quote:
Originally Posted by valy
I'm looking for a MIDI controller with at least 10-12 knobs to control plugin parameters. The smaller the footprint the better. What are my options as far as what's working with CSI at the moment? I don't really need a lot of bells and whistles (LCD screen, faders, etc.)...already have a Faderport 16 for the heavy lifting, this would be purely for plugin knobs.
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This may be overkill for your requirements but I frigging love it. Endless rotary encoders, shift-encoders, and the encoders are also buttons.
https://store.djtechtools.com/produc...ighter-twister
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06-11-2020, 01:04 PM
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#9502
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jan 2020
Posts: 1,927
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Funkybot
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Hmm not bad but seems sold out until mid-July...
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06-11-2020, 01:13 PM
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#9503
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: New Joisey
Posts: 5,990
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Quote:
Originally Posted by valy
Hmm not bad but seems sold out until mid-July...
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Apologies. Didn't check on the availability.
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06-11-2020, 01:16 PM
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#9504
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jan 2020
Posts: 1,927
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Funkybot
Apologies. Didn't check on the availability.
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No need to apologize. It looks like what I need.
Maybe what I'll do now is get a Behringer X-Touch Mini...it's only $80, and I can see how I like it. Then by the time Twister is available again, I can get that also if I still need more knobs.
But, does X-Touch Mini work with CSI...?
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06-11-2020, 01:18 PM
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#9505
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jan 2020
Posts: 1,927
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Someone said in a review that the X-Touch can't receive MIDI data, so the knobs can't respond to current plugin or synth settings when banking between them. Not sure if that's true or how it would affect its usage to control plugin parameters in Reaper.
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06-11-2020, 03:41 PM
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#9506
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Oct 2019
Location: Sydney
Posts: 471
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Funkybot
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Not to tease you further, by I share funkybot’s admiration of the MFT. Have used mine for a few years on so many projects.
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06-11-2020, 09:20 PM
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#9507
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: Krefeld, Germany
Posts: 14,686
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Geoff Waddington
Maybe I misunderstand, are you saying Reaper actions can take parameters ?
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Yes and no
The action in question is (e.g.) "SWS/S&M: Live Config #1 - Apply config (MIDI/OSC only)" ("_S&M_LIVECFG_APPLY1") that is present if you installed the SWS Reaper extension.
There are a lot more such actions. in the actions list they are denoted by " (MIDI/OSC only)". You can search for them by filtering accordingly. SWS, native Reaper, Scripts, Track handling, GUI handling, ...
I did use such an actions to fire a script ("Script: mschnell_Unmute track X (MIDI CC only).eel", available via ReaPack). I can get the parameter by
get_action_context(#filename,sectionID,cmdID,mode, resolution,val);
providing the parameter (here CC value) in val.
I did successfully test this with Midi CC messages routed nia the "MidiToReaControlPath" VST. But (tested with e.g. M_LIVECFG_APPLY1) I did not succeed in using OSC for transferring such a parameter, ever though I found a documentation on how this should be done (see -> https://forum.cockos.com/showthread.php?t=238068)
I do know that LiveConfigs can use the action "SWS/S&M: Live Config #1 - Apply config (MIDI/OSC only)" from one of it's "pages" to switch another of it's "pages". (But here supposedly the "action context" simply stays the same for the called message.)
I did not find an API function such as set_action_context(), nor do I know if all of the "(MIDI/OSC only)" actions use the action context to provide the parameter to the functionality they fire.
In the end this boils down to the question if/how CSI should be able to fire the bunch of "... (MIDI/OSC only)" actions appropriately.
Thanks for listening !
-Michael
Last edited by mschnell; 06-11-2020 at 10:47 PM.
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06-11-2020, 10:33 PM
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#9508
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jan 2020
Posts: 1,927
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tdc
Not to tease you further, by I share funkybot’s admiration of the MFT. Have used mine for a few years on so many projects.
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I'm definitely going to get one when they are back in stock. Heard nothing but good things.
In the meantime, I'm looking at picking up a Korg nanoKONTROL2. I see that paat got it working with CSI here, but I'm curious how it is for controlling plugins?
https://forum.cockos.com/showpost.ph...postcount=3017
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06-12-2020, 04:09 AM
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#9509
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Oct 2019
Location: Sydney
Posts: 471
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Quote:
Originally Posted by valy
I'm definitely going to get one when they are back in stock. Heard nothing but good things.
In the meantime, I'm looking at picking up a Korg nanoKONTROL2. I see that paat got it working with CSI here, but I'm curious how it is for controlling plugins?
https://forum.cockos.com/showpost.ph...postcount=3017
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I have a feeling that the reason the MFT is favoured is due to the rotary encoders. Just like the C4 and BRC units, having physical controller that can be set to a value from a DAW is great. It allows you to switch from one control set to another and your knobs are updated to reflect the settings in software. Really aids in making the system feel more tactile.
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06-12-2020, 04:51 AM
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#9510
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jan 2020
Posts: 1,927
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tdc
I have a feeling that the reason the MFT is favoured is due to the rotary encoders. Just like the C4 and BRC units, having physical controller that can be set to a value from a DAW is great. It allows you to switch from one control set to another and your knobs are updated to reflect the settings in software. Really aids in making the system feel more tactile.
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Yeah, the more I research other options the more I'm starting to agree with that idea. Guess I'll just hold off a bit until the Twister is back in stock. Thanks!
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06-12-2020, 05:58 AM
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#9511
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Oct 2019
Location: Sydney
Posts: 471
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Quote:
Originally Posted by valy
Yeah, the more I research other options the more I'm starting to agree with that idea. Guess I'll just hold off a bit until the Twister is back in stock. Thanks!
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A great addition and stopgap is an old iPad / phone, with Lemur or TouchOSC. Build your own interface / controller and learn about CSI / OSC at the same time.
I have had great success in broadcast trucks with reaper behind me tracking a gig and an IPad on the console and my conductors score. Mapping folder track faders to a basic UI allows for a very productive workflow.
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06-12-2020, 06:08 AM
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#9512
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jan 2020
Posts: 1,927
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tdc
A great addition and stopgap is an old iPad / phone, with Lemur or TouchOSC. Build your own interface / controller and learn about CSI / OSC at the same time.
I have had great success in broadcast trucks with reaper behind me tracking a gig and an IPad on the console and my conductors score. Mapping folder track faders to a basic UI allows for a very productive workflow.
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I actually plan on using my older iPad as well, but I really want the tactile knobs for plugin use. I use my Faderport 16 for fader levels and panning, but I'm sure I can find a good use for the iPad, too.
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06-12-2020, 12:56 PM
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#9513
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: Krefeld, Germany
Posts: 14,686
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mschnell
I did not find an API function such as set_action_context(), nor do I know if all of the "(MIDI/OSC only)" actions use the action context to provide the parameter to the functionality they fire.
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I understand that MidiToReaControlPath uses just the stuffmidi(1, ...) API function to generate a message that allows to trigger such an action and provide the parameter (here just 0..127). I was able to do this in a script, as well.
Using this in CSI would be clumsy, as the action would needed to be learned to some Midi channel and CC# before CSI would be able to fire it.
Maybe stuffmidi(1, ...) to set the action context, directly followed by a ...command() API call to fire the action would do the trick.
-Michael
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06-12-2020, 06:30 PM
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#9514
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Oct 2019
Location: Sydney
Posts: 471
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Quote:
Originally Posted by valy
I actually plan on using my older iPad as well, but I really want the tactile knobs for plugin use. I use my Faderport 16 for fader levels and panning, but I'm sure I can find a good use for the iPad, too.
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Great stuff, I completely agree, the touch devices are great for display and for learning the scope of CSI, but nothing replaces a nice physical fader / rotary encoder.
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06-13-2020, 09:15 AM
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#9515
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Poland
Posts: 592
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How to map a X-Touch button in zone file to MIDI editor section action? It only calls Main window actions. I would like to assign a button to quantize setup when MIDI editor is open.
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06-13-2020, 12:42 PM
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#9516
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Dartmouth, Nova Scotia
Posts: 11,183
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dr_After
How to map a X-Touch button in zone file to MIDI editor section action? It only calls Main window actions. I would like to assign a button to quantize setup when MIDI editor is open.
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There a few quantize Reaper actions (more if you add SWS), can you do it that way, by mapping a button to a Reaper action ?
Code:
Zone "aZone"
someButton Reaper 40444 // not a real number, substitute the right number
ZoneEnd
__________________
To install you need the CSI Software and Support Files
For installation instructions and documentation see the Wiki
Donate -- via PayPal to waddingtongeoff@gmail.com
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06-13-2020, 01:24 PM
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#9517
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Aug 2019
Location: UK
Posts: 65
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Faderport V2 - some buttons don't seem to send Midi
Hi folks
Just bought a Faderport V2 and just starting to install and work my way through the CSI stuff.
After setting up CSI Edit Mode in Reaper I have noticed that some of the buttons on the Faderport don't send any midi data when pressed. Is this normal?
Thanks in advance for your help.
Simon
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06-13-2020, 01:29 PM
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#9518
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: New Joisey
Posts: 5,990
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pompeysie
Hi folks
Just bought a Faderport V2 and just starting to install and work my way through the CSI stuff.
After setting up CSI Edit Mode in Reaper I have noticed that some of the buttons on the Faderport don't send any midi data when pressed. Is this normal?
Thanks in advance for your help.
Simon
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Does it have an MCU mode? If yes, try that with one of the MCU.mst files (if you're not already doing that of course).
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06-13-2020, 01:34 PM
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#9519
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Aug 2019
Location: UK
Posts: 65
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Funkybot
Does it have an MCU mode? If yes, try that with one of the MCU.mst files (if you're not already doing that of course).
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There are three; Logic (MCU), Cubase/Nuendo (MCU) and Live (MCU).
Currently, I have it set to Logic (MCU).
FYI, there are also Studio one and Pro Tools (HUI) modes.
Thanks
Simon
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06-13-2020, 01:53 PM
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#9520
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: New Joisey
Posts: 5,990
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pompeysie
There are three; Logic (MCU), Cubase/Nuendo (MCU) and Live (MCU).
Currently, I have it set to Logic (MCU).
FYI, there are also Studio one and Pro Tools (HUI) modes.
Thanks
Simon
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Try the other MCU modes and see if those buttons transmit data there.
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