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Old 11-23-2021, 03:09 PM   #1
danna
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Default Old newbie with noise from vst plugin question

I'm an old newbie.
Have had reaper for many years but never got it to work for me and I'm trying again.

My last installed version is 5.961 /x64.

USB connection from digital piano to computer.

Successfully recorded a midi track which I'll attach a small portion below.
It is played back through a free download vst plugin called 4piano.
It does sound better than just midi from reaper but there is lots of noise.

At the end of the recording uploaded here, I'm turning on and off the plugin 3x,
to help hear the noise from the plugin.

My question is how do I lower the noise ? ( or any other advice you give )

I thought I could have attached the mp3 here but cannot.

Uploaded to a free site I use for storing files ( approx 27 seconds )
https://app.box.com/s/nixei526wvftsk0icbsz9ui1tqh1t25d
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Old 11-23-2021, 03:41 PM   #2
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you've got an open mic. You're recording your speakers, through a microphone, rather than recording from the vst directly. Why, or how, I dunno.
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Old 11-23-2021, 03:50 PM   #3
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The recording noise aside, when you turn the plugin on and off I'm just hearing sustained notes, not really noise.
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Old 11-23-2021, 05:44 PM   #4
danna
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Originally Posted by jrk View Post
you've got an open mic. You're recording your speakers, through a microphone, rather than recording from the vst directly. Why, or how, I dunno.
Not sure if you are making a statement or asking a question ( smile )

I recorded midi from my digital piano.
The midi track was played back through the vst plugin.
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Old 11-23-2021, 05:45 PM   #5
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The recording noise aside, when you turn the plugin on and off I'm just hearing sustained notes, not really noise.
Why would the notes sustain even though the track ends ?
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Old 11-23-2021, 05:56 PM   #6
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Why would the notes sustain even though the track ends ?
could be the nature of the plugin - the creator might have wanted the sounds to have a long release.

perhaps you are having a problem with MIDI note-offs, i know that others have had problems

do you have any FX on the track? a delay or reverb could prolong the sound
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Old 11-24-2021, 01:40 AM   #7
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Not sure if you are making a statement or asking a question ( smile )

I recorded midi from my digital piano.
The midi track was played back through the vst plugin.

I listened to your audio snippet. I can hear you hitting keys, stopping the recording, and a clock ticking (faintly).
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Old 11-24-2021, 03:44 AM   #8
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do you have any FX on the track?
Only FX that I put on the track was the 4piano plugin for playback.
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Old 11-24-2021, 03:48 AM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jrk View Post
I listened to your audio snippet. I can hear you hitting keys, stopping the recording, and a clock ticking (faintly).
The audio snippet was recorded with a small external recorder near digital piano
from the midi I had previously recorded from piano to reaper. The playback was through digital piano.

I have not learned how to render the recorded midi to mp3 or wav.
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Old 11-24-2021, 03:54 AM   #10
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Here's what I would like to do and hopefully someone can explain how I get there.
1. Record midi into Reaper from digital piano ( think I got that )

2. Record the midi as small parts/tracks and then align in reaper to playback as complete song.

3. Render the midi as an mp3 or wav file.

4. Do I need an external audio interface ... or can I just use digital piano, computer, and Reaper.

Last edited by danna; 11-24-2021 at 07:34 AM.
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Old 11-24-2021, 08:43 AM   #11
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It sounds like you are using your digital piano as playback device?
And then recording that open air in the room with another recorder device?

Yeah... that's going to reduce the recording to circa 1950s dictation quality!

I'm going to guess that your struggle is with how to use multiple audio devices together. You ran into the part where you can apparently only select a single connected audio interface in Reaper (or any DAW). You selected your USB connected keyboard - obviously to record from. And then kept it selected and sent audio output back to it.

What you need to know is that you make what's called an aggregate audio device with your OS audio utility. Add connected devices (audio interfaces) to the aggregate. Select the aggregate device in Reaper instead of one of the devices by itself. Now you can record from your keyboard and output to your normal speaker system. You can use the built in audio interface that's built into your computer logic board.

There are a couple more things to go over with aggregate devices and a couple caveats but you can start googleing. You can get an external audio interface with more features, inputs, clock choices and connections, etc. But you can use the one built into your computer in a pinch. You can still use your keyboard as a single connected audio interface when/if it's convenient.

You really need to google how to render files! (You'll land on a page of the Reaper manual or a Kenny G video.) It's pretty easy and the first thing you need to know how to do. Recording from an open air speaker to another phone like device to work around that is really bluntly fully destructive to the audio and shouldn't even be considered.

Go over all that first.

Then it sounds like you might want to play with a couple different sound module plugins to address your complaints with the one you tried so far.

Hope that all makes sense!
This IS a little complex with using multiple devices and making aggregate device configs but it should all come together.
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Old 11-24-2021, 09:49 AM   #12
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Originally Posted by serr View Post
It sounds like you are using your digital piano as playback device?
Yes

Quote:
Originally Posted by serr View Post
And then recording that open air in the room with another recorder device?
Yes ... have not figured to render my midi yet.
That's why I used a Zoom H2n open air ... not to familiar with that either ( smile )

Quote:
Originally Posted by serr View Post
Yeah... that's going to reduce the recording to circa 1950s dictation quality!
Yes ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by serr View Post
I'm going to guess that your struggle is with how to use multiple audio devices together. You ran into the part where you can apparently only select a single connected audio interface in Reaper (or any DAW). You selected your USB connected keyboard - obviously to record from. And then kept it selected and sent audio output back to it.
I'm not sure if I actually need more than what I ave.

Quote:
Originally Posted by serr View Post
Now you can record from your keyboard and output to your normal speaker system.
Digital keyboard is my speaker system.


Quote:
Originally Posted by serr View Post
You can still use your keyboard as a single connected audio interface when/if it's convenient.
That's what I need to determine, if I actually need more than what I have.
Not familiar with what I actually need. Don't mind spending a little to get a good sound.

Thanks for the thoughtful reply, appreciate it.
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Old 11-24-2021, 10:08 AM   #13
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Digital keyboard is my speaker system.
Well, OK. If that's your speaker system (probably headphones too, right?) for everything you listen to... there it is.

You absolutely have to roll up your sleeves and learn how to click a couple buttons and render though! An open air dictation recording as a workaround is absurd, frankly!

Keep using your current monitoring system. That's fine. (And keeps it simple with a single audio interface connection.) You need to render your mixes though! This is "getting started" territory.
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Old 11-24-2021, 10:17 AM   #14
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Well, OK. If that's your speaker system (probably headphones too, right?) for everything you listen to... there it is.

You absolutely have to roll up your sleeves and learn how to click a couple buttons and render though! An open air dictation recording as a workaround is absurd, frankly!

Keep using your current monitoring system. That's fine. (And keeps it simple with a single audio interface connection.) You need to render your mixes though! This is "getting started" territory.
Yes to headphones.

I needed to hear from someone with experience, if I can at least get started with what I have.

Thank you !
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Old 11-24-2021, 10:54 AM   #15
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You absolutely have to roll up your sleeves and learn how to click a couple buttons and render though!
Screen shot of trying to record the midi track to another track.
Settings made sense to me but did not work.
Maybe someone can spot whats wrong.

Track 2 was set to record midi and receive from track 1.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg reaperrecordmidi.jpg (46.9 KB, 61 views)
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Old 11-24-2021, 11:10 AM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by danna View Post
Screen shot of trying to record the midi track to another track.
Settings made sense to me but did not work.
Maybe someone can spot whats wrong.

Track 2 was set to record midi and receive from track 1.
you need to set track 2 to "record : output" (right click the record button)


has it been established if your keyboard is capable of transmitting audio over usb, or are we just talking about MIDI?
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Old 11-24-2021, 11:50 AM   #17
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you need to set track 2 to "record : output" (right click the record button)

has it been established if your keyboard is capable of transmitting audio over usb, or are we just talking about MIDI?
Tried your "record : output" suggestion.
Of all choices, the only thing that would record anything is " Record output (Midi)"

Second part of your answer " is my keyboard capable of transmitting audio over usb " ... guess the answer to that is no.

So that would mean I do need some type of audio interface ?

Thanks domzy
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Old 11-24-2021, 11:56 AM   #18
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He confirmed using the USB keyboard as the sole audio interface. And shared the open air recording of playback through its speakers.

Take things one at a time here! Before jumping into subgroup routing and routing MIDI signals around the mixing board, learn how to render. You have a track with recorded MIDI machine code with a virtual instrument plugin loaded and generating audio from the MIDI instructions. You must have successfully routed it to your main bus since you are hearing it play back. (The Reaper main bus via the "master/patent send" tickbox in the channel I/O window.)

So, open the render window.
Leave the default selection for 'master output'.
Leave the default selection for 'entire project'.
Browse to some convenient place on your hard drive to save to. (Maybe at least a subfolder if you're one of those "throw everything into the desktop folder" kind of folks.)
Choose output format. (FLAC or WAV is good. You can crunch it down to lossy mp3 later if you wish.)
Hit render.
Your file will be where you pointed the output to above.

Once you have that under control...

Get a handle on basic gain staging.
How loud the output should be. Compare a few released recordings. Note the difference between volume war slammed CDs and more proper levels. At least get a rough sense for what levels to expect so you're not inadvertently blasticating stuff or swimming in anemic way too low signals.

Now start messing around learning the mixing board routing and playing with subgroups and all that.
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Old 11-24-2021, 12:12 PM   #19
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Take things one at a time here! Before jumping into subgroup routing and routing MIDI signals around the mixing board, learn how to render. You have a track with recorded MIDI machine code with a virtual instrument plugin loaded and generating audio from the MIDI instructions. You must have successfully routed it to your main bus since you are hearing it play back. (The Reaper main bus via the "master/patent send" tickbox in the channel I/O window.)
It plays back or generates audio from the MIDI ( from my keyboard ) or the VST.

What I cannot do is record that audio I'm hearing to another track as audio.
Then I could render that audio track.

I tried render from what I have now and it is a blank file. ( no sound )

I do appreciate your input ... but I do not get this terminology yet.
(main bus, master patent send, channel i/o, all foreign to me )

Here's back of my keyboard
Attached Images
File Type: jpg RearFP7 copy.jpg (48.1 KB, 52 views)

Last edited by danna; 11-24-2021 at 12:59 PM. Reason: add pic
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Old 11-24-2021, 02:40 PM   #20
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If anyone wants to see what I'm trying to accomplish ... video by Kenny Gioia shows it at approx 7:20 time mark.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aQ1iHnkqiXA&t=9s
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Old 11-24-2021, 03:31 PM   #21
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I am now doing what kenny does in that video with a guitar recently.

Track 1:
Input is mono audio - input 1 from my audio interface with guitar plugged into iface input 1. Record is output, midi.
Routing:
Add new send, to track 2 (first create Track 2)

Track 2:
Record is output, mono


I have reatune and a vsti on Track 1...

I record arm Tracks 1 and 2, hit record and play. I get recorded midi on Track 1 and recorded audio on Track 2.

You can do this in two steps instead of one. Set up Track 1, record arm it, add a vsti, record the midi...
Then set up Track 2, set up routing, record arm it, record...

Sorry if i missed it, don’t see what digital piano you have or what type of soundcard you have.

To me the picture indicates:

It has usb iface to computer for midi only (assume both into and out of)
It has mono/stereo audio in
It has mono/stereo audio out

From the keyboard perspective, you have enough to do various things such as record midi in reaper, have midi in reaper play the keyboard, and record audio in reaper, etc.

I am less sure about your soundcard, but i don’t know for sure. In my situation, i went for an audio iface, a scarlett 2i2... in my situation it made things much simpler, my soundcard is too basic...

This is somewhat brief, trying to stay simple... keep asking questions.

Last edited by b2001; 11-24-2021 at 03:38 PM.
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Old 11-24-2021, 04:03 PM   #22
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Number 4, Yes .
Only the Midikeyboard, computer with midi-interface and Reaper.

you have recorded the midi.
Then that midi-item is in a track.
The pianoplugin must be in the FX slot in that track.
click play and you hear the pianosound from the plugin playing your midinotes.
Then Render option+command+R
This way you create a wave or MP3 or flac file with your music without recording a loudspeaker with a recorder that is noisy by itself.
Then you can hear the real sound of the plugin, probably a cheap digital piano but without noise.
Unfortunately I can't test that plugin, you are speaking of the 4FrontPiano ?
It is not working on M1 Monterey computer.
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Old 11-24-2021, 04:15 PM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by b2001 View Post

From the keyboard perspective, you have enough to do various things such as record midi in reaper, have midi in reaper play the keyboard, and record audio in reaper, etc.

I am less sure about your soundcard, but i don’t know for sure. In my situation, i went for an audio iface, a scarlett 2i2... in my situation it made things much simpler, my soundcard is too basic...

This is somewhat brief, trying to stay simple... keep asking questions.
Thanks b2001 ... that will be very helpful.

I think what I'm trying to do is what you mentioned in your two step process and similar to what Gioia does in video.

Noticed that Gioia is using an audio interface also.

I'm guessing it's my sound card that cannot handle what I'm trying to do .... or the fact that my keyboard can only send midi through that usb cable.

May try lines from my keyboard outs to soundcard and see what happens.

Most likely have to get some type of audio interface.

Thanks for all the info.

Last edited by danna; 11-24-2021 at 04:17 PM. Reason: misspelled
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Old 11-24-2021, 04:20 PM   #24
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Number 4, Yes .
Only the Midikeyboard, computer with midi-interface and Reaper.
Thank you ... and yes it is 4Front Piano ... think I wrote 4Piano earlier.
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Old 11-24-2021, 05:45 PM   #25
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If your soundcard has a mic in and headphones out, most likely you can get what you have to work.

However, trying to further understand your workflow. What is the need to get the piano sound into reaper if you are recording the midi and using a vsti to produce sound?

There is no right or wrong, just trying to understand what you want to do.

There are times when i want both midi and audio from an external device into reaper, however, most of the time when i want to use a particular vsti and its sound, i record midi only.
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Old 11-24-2021, 10:20 PM   #26
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Thanks b2001 ... that will be very helpful.

I think what I'm trying to do is what you mentioned in your two step process and similar to what Gioia does in video.

Noticed that Gioia is using an audio interface also.

I'm guessing it's my sound card that cannot handle what I'm trying to do .... or the fact that my keyboard can only send midi through that usb cable.

May try lines from my keyboard outs to soundcard and see what happens.

Most likely have to get some type of audio interface.

Thanks for all the info.
If your keyboard connects with USB and you can connect to it with a DAW and send audio to it (as you stated)... it has a USB audio interface built into it. That's an audio interface.
The audio interface built into your computer logic board is... an audio interface.
FYI, there isn't anything special about a pci card connecting audio interface (vs. USB connecting, built-in, firewire connecting, thunderbolt connecting, etc etc) except that you would need a tower with pci slots to use one.

Just trying to clear up what's being talked about like some mysterious thing here! I believe you have two audio interfaces in front of you right now. Keyboard and built into the computer. They may be limited in features is all.

Moving forward...

Sorry I couldn't explain how to work the render window last try!
This is what you need to learn next though.
Do you see the meter moving on the master output when you hit play with your recorded track?
Go through the instructions for rendering again. You see how you select the output source, the time length (whole project or other choices), the output file path, the file format (eg. wav)? That's a few things there but that's pretty much the extent of the render controls.

Another thing to try:
Let's step back to simply playing a file from Reaper!
Drag/drop some audio file (some song file from your collection or something) into a track. Hit play.

Maybe you're dealing with some Windows misbehavior to get past and not just missing stuff? (I don't know what OS you are running... So perhaps the same comment but OSX.) So take this one step at a time.

Drag file into Reaper. Can you play it?
OK, now render it (to go through the motions to make a new copy).
This should lead to figuring out your interface selection/connection with your current gear.
Finally, mess with recording from the keyboard again.
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Old 11-29-2021, 06:12 AM   #27
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Quote:
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If your soundcard has a mic in and headphones out, most likely you can get what you have to work.

However, trying to further understand your workflow. What is the need to get the piano sound into reaper if you are recording the midi and using a vsti to produce sound?
Basic sound card that came with computer. Line in and line out.
It is a very old computer and there is know brand for sound card listed in device manager.

The only thing I want to do is record midi parts.
Thought it would be easier to change midi if needed.

Once all parts are good ... then record the midi as audio.

I ran line out cable from piano to line in on sound card and reaper does record audio. ( that's in addition to the usb cable that recorded midi )

But I have not figured how to have reaper record audio from the midi file.
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Old 11-29-2021, 06:15 AM   #28
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If your keyboard connects with USB and you can connect to it with a DAW and send audio to it (as you stated)... it has a USB audio interface built into it. That's an audio interface.
I can only record midi from the usb cable.

Over the weekennd I ran line from piano out to sound card line in and reaper does record audio.

I have not figured how to have reaper record audio from the midi track(s).

Thanks for reply.
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Old 11-29-2021, 06:23 AM   #29
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I ran line out cable from piano to line in on sound card and reaper does record audio. ( that's in addition to the usb cable that recorded midi )

But I have not figured how to have reaper record audio from the midi file.
That is how you do it, if you want to use the (external) piano as the sound source.
If you want to use a VSTi plugin as the sound source then you would need to load that on the MIDI track and render it.
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Old 11-29-2021, 07:33 AM   #30
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If you want to use a VSTi plugin as the sound source then you would need to load that on the MIDI track and render it.
Tried that ... get blank file with no sound.
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Old 11-29-2021, 07:45 AM   #31
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once you've loaded the VSTi, you can hear it, right? (i'm guessing from your first post)

There are various ways to render in Reaper, which method are you using?
If it's a single item, my preferred way is to right click and "apply fx as new take"
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Old 11-29-2021, 08:23 AM   #32
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once you've loaded the VSTi, you can hear it, right? (i'm guessing from your first post)

There are various ways to render in Reaper, which method are you using?
If it's a single item, my preferred way is to right click and "apply fx as new take"
Yes I can hear it.

Not on that computer now but I think it was File - Render and I get a dialog that I would choose mp3 and location.

I will try your "right click" method later today .... thanks.
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Old 11-29-2021, 10:21 AM   #33
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I noticed you are rendering to MP3 or WAV; just don't forget that MP3 is very lossy so if you are trying to save bandwidth or hard drive space, render as FLAC. FLAC is mathematically lossless while being around 1/2 or less the size of WAV files. Silence gets encoded extremely efficiently. Never use MP3 (30-year old lossy format) or MP4 (20-year old lossy format) for anything you'll be editing later as your results can and likely will sound pretty bad.

In addition, if you render in a lossy format and then upload it to a streaming service it will be re-encoded to another-or-same lossy format and sound even worse.

FLAC (supports up to 24-bit) or WAVPack (supports up to 32-bit floating-point) are your best options for rendering while saving space and bandwidth
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Old 11-29-2021, 11:12 AM   #34
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Default rendering midi to audio

If you want to simply render midi to audio within reaper, this should be simple, is done within reaper, and should have nothing to do with your interfaces.

This records the output of the piano vsti as audio directly, no microphone, so you'll get a cleaner sound with less noise (unless the plugin is noisy which is unusual and the one you are using shouldn't be).

This sound can be rather dry and sterile if the plugin has no ambience or reverb built in. You could add ambience or reverb in the fx if you wanted more ambience.

There a several ways to do this but...

In this video from Kenny, he shows a pretty simply way to do it at 7:57, where he renders a midi piano file to audio:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nVbGhnS_sQM

This is the way to do it if you wanted to keep the audio within reaper to do further processing or editing to the audio(for example Kenny adds fades to his audio in the example).(In this case, you could also copy the wav file right from your media folder for reaper. For me that's this pc: documents: reaper media

It renders audio right on the same track where your midi is located, as a new take. ( you don't lose the midi, even though it looks like you are recording over it, it is in another take).

You could also route the midi to a another track and record it as audio on that new track,this is what I do.

(note this will record in whatever default file format you have set up in reaper, usually wav) (you will still need to follow the other instructions to render the file for export from reaper by rendering the entire project for that

Alternatively, if you only want to export the one track in one go,you can render the entire project from the render dialogue and have it save the file of your choice.


Good luck!
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Old 11-29-2021, 03:28 PM   #35
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If it's a single item, my preferred way is to right click and "apply fx as new take"
That worked but it combined it with he midi track.
I would want the audio on a separate track.

As soon as I assign the fx (4piano ) I get a loud hum.
Only way to stop the hum is to disable fx.
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Old 11-29-2021, 03:31 PM   #36
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Originally Posted by Lynx_TWO View Post
I noticed you are rendering to MP3 or WAV; just don't forget that MP3 is very lossy so if you are trying to save bandwidth or hard drive space, render as FLAC. FLAC is mathematically lossless while being around 1/2 or less the size of WAV files. Silence gets encoded extremely efficiently. Never use MP3 (30-year old lossy format) or MP4 (20-year old lossy format) for anything you'll be editing later as your results can and likely will sound pretty bad.
Thanks for that info ... did not know.

May be useful if I ever get this thing working.
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Old 11-29-2021, 03:44 PM   #37
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You could also route the midi to a another track and record it as audio on that new track,this is what I do.
That is what I'm trying to do ... and I cannot.

Watched the video you linked to, used the same settings as far as I can tell,
and the extra track is always empty .

I will try to record a video and show my settings.

Thanks for reply.
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Old 11-29-2021, 03:45 PM   #38
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Don't give up, you're getting close! It's exponential - what you've already done is making you familiar to the whole process, and once you get it going it's likely to STAY going. You can also take screen shots of what you end up doing for setup in case it gets messed up.

"Turning on" the FX and getting noise suggests maybe a bad cable, or 'record audio' is selected instead of 'midi input...' or input/monitor levels too high...or a few other things.

Sorry to not read all details - are you recording using the speakers to monitor as you go? That can be noisy (and cause latency) - can you try headphones?

Sometimes audio devices like keys (cables...) too close to the computer pick up noise from the computer itself (my guitars will if I lean them on the desk next to the PC with volume up). Once you get into this area, it's usually not Reaper, it's your 'instrument stuff'.

You'll probably get this sorted out pretty quickly now.
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Old 11-29-2021, 05:12 PM   #39
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Well here' a short video trying to show the settings ... maybe someone can spot what I'm doing wrong.

https://spaces.hightail.com/space/FmcdF2s7qx
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Old 11-29-2021, 05:14 PM   #40
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Originally Posted by danna View Post
That is what I'm trying to do ... and I cannot.

Watched the video you linked to, used the same settings as far as I can tell,
and the extra track is always empty .

I will try to record a video and show my settings.

Thanks for reply.
The video was showing how to record a new take as audio on the same track.

Here is what I just did to record midi to a new track and it worked, try this and see if it works for you:

1) Create a new track to record the piano audio to (ctrl T on windows)Name it piano audio or whatever, take note of the name and track number
2)click on the routing area of the track with the midi to open the routing dialog
3) click the drop down for "add new send"
4) select the new track you created from the drop down
5) Go to the new track and hover your mouse over the record mode button, it will say record: then the mode
6) select record output: mono (or stereo if you want it stereo)
7) record arm the audio track by selecting the red button
8) position the play cursor at the beginning of the midi part you want to render, then click record in the transport
9) When the midi part that you want recorded is done playing press stop.
10) You should now see a waveform in the new track, which is your new audio, solo that track and press play to listen and test it

Let us know if that doesn't work.

p.s. Just to clarify, you shouldn't need to mess with the hardware out if you have your setup working so that you can hear the midi track playing back through your keyboard. Just route the midi to the new track as I described and record the output and it should playback just like the midi file did.

Last edited by JohnnyMusic; 11-29-2021 at 06:00 PM.
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