EQ for hihat?

[The Kid]

Originally Posted by doghouse

for a beginner its safe to start with a highpass, you dont want 60hz in the hats for sure!
My advice is to time align the overheads to the hihat mike.
Look and mark a spike in the hihat track and pull the OH track to the left so both spikes will "happen" simultaneously.

I wouldn't mess with the timing of the mics.

[Frank Lee Scarlett]

Originally Posted by The Kid

I wouldn't mess with the timing of the mics.

I agree. If I did, I wouldn't be moving the overheads to match the hi-hat. I'd move the hat to match the overheads. Once you start moving overhead tracks, you've got to move snare and kik tracks, etc...It's becomes a chasing your tail situation. Personally, I never move my overheads tracks. Those are the main drum tracks.

[serr]

Yeah, the overheads are the main drum capture. Align the spot mics to them, not the other way around. Or do 'old school' and arrive at a smeared compromise that doesn't comb filter too bad. The computer is our friend with drum spot mics IMHO!

[doghouse]

i should have wrote that my overheads are recorded in MS (mid/side) and toms and kick are meshheads, so its no proplem to move the OH track, we are talking few samples, so moving them to the left or right doesnt make any difference in noticeable timing, but time aligning is important to me, doesnt make the groove tighter but the brass is more defined, believe it or not, give it a try. Snaremike and hihat are nearly on the same high, so its easier to move the overheads track than snare AND hats.

offtopics, sorry...we should discuss time aligning in another thread.

[doghouse]

Originally Posted by serr

Yeah, the overheads are the main drum capture. Align the spot mics to them, not the other way around. Or do 'old school' and arrive at a smeared compromise that doesn't comb filter too bad. The computer is our friend with drum spot mics IMHO!

well thats your way of thinking, for me the overheads are the cymbal mikes
(but as i wrote above, i play a hybrid setup, because all those bleeding from eight mikes does not led ( at least me) to a tight, defined sound in the studio.

[karbomusic]

Not debating just some OT thoughts...

The rest of the kit is going to be in the OHs and often near as loud as the cymbals. Not nitpicking just sharing some hard-learned tips. I'd suggest everyone try at some time in their journey; to take the overheads and assume it's the only two drum mics you have, get them sounding as good as possible - then bring in the kick, snare and other mics to fill that in.

Doing it the other way can result in trying to force the OHs into cymbal mics and that's not really what they are doing - I mean people do it successfully, but the rest of the kit is screaming into those nice stereo mics, and it's often counter productive to spend a lot of time trying to remove that from them.

The very best drum sounds often exploit all the mics working together to a whole larger than the sum of the parts, not trying to make each anemic with only the intended source in them. Not that anyone said that but as I said, things to consider.

[Cosmic Pig]

Well I gotta ask; depending on music genre is this mostly just splitting hairs?

Ideally in the cleaner stuff like jazz, some styles of blues, and some folk/country you're looking for sparkly top end and rich lows, which to me means mic's and pre's. Even then the gear makes little difference.

I've never been able to hear an audible difference micro moving mic's around, beyond the obvious diaphragm flattening when it's too close.

Most of the time I slide up samples underneath toms and kick, and depending on the song, I often add tons of distortion on almost everything except overheads.

Seems to me we have bigger fish to fry. My advice to the op is just ignore it or agonize over it, but when the forest is lumpy you might be micro mixing the wrong tree. The other hard won wisdom for me was recognizing I couldn't fix something because I screwed up the tracking. Crap in crap out... polish polish fuck. Days on end. Polish polish, still fuck.

Try mixing fast so you don't get stuck in a tree.

Mute the hat track.

[foxAsteria]

Originally Posted by Cosmic Pig

I've never been able to hear an audible difference micro moving mic's around, beyond the obvious diaphragm flattening when it's too close.

Most of the time I slide up samples underneath toms and kick, and depending on the song, I often add tons of distortion on almost everything except overheads.

Really? Do you mean moving the mics in realtime or that you don't notice it in the end result? Adjusting the mics by ear for optimal phase from the start is IMO the best way to avoid having to line up waveforms later, which in itself is a bit hit or miss and never much fun.

I use isolation headphones while setting up the kit mics and it's hard for me to imagine anyone couldn't hear those differences. Makes a huge difference IMO to have things sounding cohesive and full before I hit record.

[Cosmic Pig]

Originally Posted by foxAsteria

Really? Do you mean moving the mics in realtime or that you don't notice it in the end result? Adjusting the mics by ear for optimal phase from the start is IMO the best way to avoid having to line up waveforms later, which in itself is a bit hit or miss and never much fun.

I use isolation headphones while setting up the kit mics and it's hard for me to imagine anyone couldn't hear those differences. Makes a huge difference IMO to have things sounding cohesive and full before I hit record.

I've never done it realtime, don't own any HP that would isolate enough. The only thing I do for phase is make sure the overheads are the same distance from the ceiling. Do you have an example of any drums you've tracked that demonstrate the fullness and cohesion? I'm always up for some education, although I'm a bit Leary after falling down many rabbit holes I either wasn't ready to absorb or were theoretical hair splits if ya get me.

I did this tune a few years back, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L-s-LaPJiEk

and this guy, although he wasn't really a heavy hitter type. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PQpG...aH9RFw&index=1 The weird hats are because I added some shaker.. I think.

Although I just added a sub to my setup and I think I went bass heavy. Anyways, both of these have samples slid up underneath kik and toms, and a Waves overdive pedal up under the snare and kick. Thing is, the drums sounded wimpy without that so my ears are open.

I did the guitar on the first one.

edit: Hats on the second tune are just the way the guy hit them. Wasn't much i could do with the tippy tappy factor.

[serr]

You can demo some things.
Grab a drum set recording that includes a spot mic on the snare.

Pull up the overheads first. You can tell if someone measured to center the snare by if the snare hits are time aligned in both L/R.

So center it by nudging one of the tracks if it isn't for the first thing.
Listen now and you hear the snare centered. No night and day, just that.

Next add in the snare (how it happens to be recorded).
What do you hear when you unmute the spot snare track?
Hold that thought.

Duplicate those tracks however you please to make for an A/B with the next thing.

Now nudge the snare spot mic track to precisely line up with the snare hits in the overheads.
Now unmute it and listen. Pretty full and 100% reinforced with no hint of comb filtering, right?

Now go back and play with the not aligned one. Nudge it around to simulate repositioning the mic distance. Note how it will comb filter and you get good spots and bad spots? That's what you would be looking/listening for manually in headphones to find the best compromised placement to be more "in" than "out" of phase. The most "out" points sound like a full high pass eq.

If you're going to be making a live mix this could be critical to know how to do! But for a studio recording you can absolutely say screw any and all compromised madness and place those spot mics with precision and zero phase coloring after the fact. It feels like cheating!

[foxAsteria]

Originally Posted by Cosmic Pig

I've never done it realtime, don't own any HP that would isolate enough. The only thing I do for phase is make sure the overheads are the same distance from the ceiling. Do you have an example of any drums you've tracked that demonstrate the fullness and cohesion?

Well no, because the point of reference would be having also recorded the same thing with haphazard placements, which I've never done. It was more of a thing I noticed, started doing regularly and had to mess with less afterward.

You don't need complete isolation. In fact I think it's comparing the direct mic mix with the headphone bleed that does it for me. If I get the phone mix sounding close to the room, then recording's going to sound pretty natural and close to what I heard while playing them.

My point is, you can easily hear the phase interaction of multiple mics by listening on headphones while you move them. It's always there by nature, but you can optimize it by ear before recording instead of after, by mouse.

I just start with kick or overheads and add the others one by one, moving them until I like what I hear.

[Cosmic Pig]

Originally Posted by foxAsteria

Well no, because the point of reference would be having also recorded the same thing with haphazard placements, which I've never done. It was more of a thing I noticed, started doing regularly and had to mess with less afterward.

You don't need complete isolation. In fact I think it's comparing the direct mic mix with the headphone bleed that does it for me. If I get the phone mix sounding close to the room, then recording's going to sound pretty natural and close to what I heard while playing them.

My point is, you can easily hear the phase interaction of multiple mics by listening on headphones while you move them. It's always there by nature, but you can optimize it by ear before recording instead of after, by mouse.

I just start with kick or overheads and add the others one by one, moving them until I like what I hear.

I'll attempt it next time for sure. I've always done it more or less by centering the snare and making sure the OH's are the same distance from the ceiling, but never actually checked because I don't have isolation hp. The only trouble is it's so rare to track real drums these days. Mostly I spend my days programming drum samples for broke ass musicians lol.

[norbury brook]

A really informative thread

Some good stuff here.

I think genre comes into play here as has been mentioned. I do a lot of ‘real’ live instruments work and I like a natural(ish) recorded drum sound. I too work downwards from the OH mics

Sample replacement is common nowadays on pop tracks so the old school way of checking multi mic’s isn’t as important as it used to be.

I’ve just been working with AAron Sterling https://aaronsterling.com/ And he labels his ambient drum mic tracks in an interesting way.

He said “and the naming protocol came from the fact that i always felt it was misleading to name a track “U47 Mono” because then people will think they have to turn that one up. Or if they saw “SM57 Far Room” they might assume that one isn’t as good. People think too much with their eyes. So when it comes to the various ambient and aux mics i like to give them ambiguous names. “


i have some good photos from that session but can’t attach here directly it seems.


Anyway good thread.

M

[foxAsteria]

Originally Posted by Cosmic Pig

The only trouble is it's so rare to track real drums these days. Mostly I spend my days programming drum samples for broke ass musicians lol.

That sounds kinda awful tbh. What musicians bring in songs that still need a beat?

[foxAsteria]

Originally Posted by norbury brook

i have some good photos from that session but can’t attach here directly it seems.

Upload to The Stash and then post the last link on the subsequent page.

[Cosmic Pig]

Originally Posted by foxAsteria

That sounds kinda awful tbh. What musicians bring in songs that still need a beat?

Pretty much all of them. Individuals rather than bands. All styles, but more towards old fart folk and rock. The most common scenario is individuals with a few original tunes that need full production right down to the arrangement. The difference between real drums and programmed samples is slight. Leastways, slight in the audio but huge in the mojo. Most of the amateurs I get in here don't want to pay for the mojo.

[foxAsteria]

Geez. Lazy toffs. Do you play drums? If I had to do that job I'd use my e-drums to lay down the beats. That'd be nice work. That way you don't have to mess with mics but you still get some mojo.

[WINAMP]

Originally Posted by MinisterD

Can anybody recommend a good ReaEQ curve for hihat miked with a small-diaphragm condenser?

"Sounds like" you're afraid of the low-end component of most full-spectrum mics.

Do not cut the low end.

Think of it as mixing. Everything has low-end. If you need to filter it, filter it.

But there is no harm in letting in through. As long as you can hear it.

And it appears you can hear it. So... good.

[doghouse]

recording problematic drums can help you to get a better drummer.
mixing live shows teached me a lot. Many drummers are really bad in balancing and beat the sh*it out of the hats while playing a wimpy snare.
My goal is to play thin hats very light while getting a solid backbeat and kick.
Use thin sticks (i prefer Vic Firth Jazz Aj6) For a beginner its hard to play the drums with very individual strength but its easy to understand that you should beat every separate drum with the ideal
energy so it will produce the nicest sound. Thats the key. So if you dont like your Hihat in the mix, maybe the hihats themself and the one who plays or the way he plays them is the source of the problem.
Its true, very agressive and loud drummers with thick sticks and heavy hats / cymbals are recorded as a whole drumset and you wont need any hihat mike. A tad of Eq can help to clean up a mix, but in a ideal world you wouldnt need EQs at all. The right instruments with the right microphones is all you need (nearly)
Ah.. the right distance to the hihat is i important too. A to short distance can bring up nasty frequencies from the brass.

[WINAMP]

Originally Posted by doghouse

recording problematic drums can help you to get a better drummer.
mixing live shows teached me a lot. Many drummers are really bad in balancing and beat the sh*it out of the hats while playing a wimpy snare.
My goal is to play thin hats very light while getting a solid backbeat and kick.
Use thin sticks (i prefer Vic Firth Jazz Aj6) For a beginner its hard to play the drums with very individual strength but its easy to understand that you should beat every separate drum with the ideal
energy so it will produce the nicest sound. Thats the key. So if you dont like your Hihat in the mix, maybe the hihats themself and the one who plays or the way he plays them is the source of the problem.
Its true, very agressive and loud drummers with thick sticks and heavy hats / cymbals are recorded as a whole drumset and you wont need any hihat mike. A tad of Eq can help to clean up a mix, but in a ideal world you wouldnt need EQs at all. The right instruments with the right microphones is all you need (nearly)
Ah.. the right distance to the hihat is i important too. A to short distance can bring up nasty frequencies from the brass.

True but then again, Stevie Wonder.
He tries to equalize hi-hats with snare, which usually produce over the top hi hats.
Still, end result- top 10 hit songs.

[norbury brook]

Giving this a try

https://stash.reaper.fm/44537/7BCE76...B0A772304.jpeg



Does it work?

AAron sterling drum session.


M

[Glennbo]

Originally Posted by norbury brook

Giving this a try

https://stash.reaper.fm/44537/7BCE76...B0A772304.jpeg

Does it work?

AAron sterling drum session.

I see you have triple overheads happening there. My last two projects I've used triple overheads.

https://sclkssl.ssl.hwcdn.net/05/img...205_811443.jpg

I pulled a tape measure on them so they are all equidistant from the center of the snare and are panned hard left, dead center, and hard right. I like the imaging I'm getting, but since making hihat shields for my tom and snare mics (only used on my last project so far), I'm now coming up a bit light on hihat in the mix.

[doghouse]

Originally Posted by norbury brook

Giving this a try

https://stash.reaper.fm/44537/7BCE76...B0A772304.jpeg



Does it work?

AAron sterling drum session.


M

this is not a common OH stereo system, its one mike each cymbal.
What would concern me most is the "life" room but the pic does not show enough to justify.

[Frank Lee Scarlett]

Originally Posted by Glennbo

I see you have triple overheads happening there. My last two projects I've used triple overheads.

https://sclkssl.ssl.hwcdn.net/05/img...205_811443.jpg

I pulled a tape measure on them so they are all equidistant from the center of the snare and are panned hard left, dead center, and hard right. I like the imaging I'm getting, but since making hihat shields for my tom and snare mics (only used on my last project so far), I'm now coming up a bit light on hihat in the mix.

I'm definitely going to try this. Not because I think I need it, but I have an extra mic on a stand already plugged into my interface, and it used to be one of my overheads, so why not try it?

The problem I think I'm going to have is that I have a cloud over my drums and it won't allow me to put the middle mic high enough to be the same distance from the snare that the other 2 mics are.

I wonder if there's some"formula" or "rule" where I can put the middle mic a certain percentage away that will not give major phasing or comb filtering.

Like, for example, if my 2 outside mics are 60 inches away from my snare, is there some math that says the middle mic can be half the distance (30 inches) and it won't phase...or something?

Or maybe it doesn't even matter and I can just treat it as its own mic at its own distance from the snare.

Only one way to find out, I guess.

[Glennbo]

Originally Posted by Frank Lee Scarlett

Only one way to find out, I guess.

That's the spirit!

[Frank Lee Scarlett]

Originally Posted by Glennbo

That's the spirit!

Thanx for the support!

[Frank Lee Scarlett]

So, I joined this thread late, so I'll understand if those of you who have been discussing this since the beginning have moved on.

Just wanted to post a picture of what I ended up doing with the 3rd overhead. (link to pictures below)

The first picture shows my configuration. The second picture is my view from my seat.

I tried a few set ups with the 2 outside mics. At first, I went over the shoulder with both of them. Sort of like a "Recorderman" set up, but with stereo mics instead of just one over my shoulder. Didn't sound as good as I expected.

All 3 mics are the same distance from my snare.

This set up, with the 2 outside mics in an "X" shape sounds fantastic. I need to turn down my snare mic quite a bit, because that 3rd mic pointing straight at it picks up a lot of snare.

Of course, none of this is "Necessary". But since I had an extra mic already plugged in and ready to go, I figured why not. I think I'm going to stick with it, at least for now.

https://imgur.com/a/rhAQjWi

[Glennbo]

Originally Posted by Frank Lee Scarlett

Of course, none of this is "Necessary". But since I had an extra mic already plugged in and ready to go, I figured why not. I think I'm going to stick with it, at least for now.

That was my reasoning, and the fact that my center mic is better than the ones used in the spaced stereo pair.