Old 02-19-2009, 07:39 AM   #1
Dstruct
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Default Track phase signal flow flaw

Please read this:
http://forum.cockos.com/showpost.php...18&postcount=2

I couldn't believe it. Current signal flow makes no sense! It's confusing and nobody remembers that!


That's how it needs to be:
Code:
Item
|
Item Phase
|
Track Phase !!!
|
-> Pre-FX Send
|
FX
|
-> Pre-fader (Post-FX)
|
Volume fader
|
-> Post-fader (Post-Pan)
|
Parent

Instead of this current implementation:
Code:
Item
|
Item Phase
|
-> Pre-FX Send
|
FX
|
-> Pre-fader (Post-FX)
|
Volume fader
|
Track Phase ???
|
-> Post-fader (Post-Pan)
|
Parent

Last edited by Dstruct; 07-11-2009 at 09:35 AM.
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Old 02-19-2009, 07:47 AM   #2
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Dstruct, you're completely right. I was reading a couple of minutes ago that Zargon's thread and I was about to answer when you came in. This has been worrying me since I met REAPER. Phase invertion should be applied pre-fx always, it's a "logical" behaviour, I think.
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Old 02-19-2009, 07:58 AM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mercado_Negro View Post
Phase invertion should be applied pre-fx always, it's a "logical" behaviour, I think.
Exactly. In 99.9% of cases you want to apply phase inversion to the track media, not to the output of plugins. More important: You want to carry the phase inversion over to pre-fx sends!

I know you can do this with the additional phase switch on the send-dialog but this

1. can't be seen in the mixer
2. needs additonal mouse clicks
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Old 02-19-2009, 08:02 AM   #4
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If this won't get changed please consider to add at least a signal flow diagram/chart to Reaper's Help menu!

I always have to test routings again and again because you never remember that stuff (also because it's different in each host)!


So please -> signal flow diagram/chart to Reaper's Help menu!!!
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Old 02-19-2009, 08:18 AM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dstruct View Post
So please -> signal flow diagram/chart to Reaper's Help menu!!!
Please, this would be incredibly useful not just in this particular case but some other situations where routing needs to be completely understood to take full advantage of reaper's capabilities. And it'll also reduce the insane amount of threads about reaper's routings from newbies. Thanks
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Old 02-19-2009, 09:42 AM   #6
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Yes.

Reaper's routing capabilities are awesome, but as they are totally different from other DAWS (at least the ones I know), it can take quite a while until one gets what it's all about.



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Old 02-19-2009, 09:46 AM   #7
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maybe a little graphic routing chart could even be included in the routing window? nice sometimes when info is just there where its needed ... what say you White Tie?
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Old 02-19-2009, 10:04 AM   #8
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I brought this up a year or so ago and the reply I got was that having the TCP phase button change the item phase would not be consistent with the design of reaper, or something like that. I was requesting that TCP phase button change item phase and have the waveform flip indicating such, but I got big fat NO about the issue.


The way it is currently allows a few options to where you want phase flipped though, because you can also use a plugin to change phase of a track.


But I agree an option to make the TCP button post-item like your diagram would be useful and preferred by default. I'd also love if the waveform flipped graphically, but that's just me.
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Old 02-19-2009, 10:15 AM   #9
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You currently can switch phase in three places: per item, per send, and per track. (In addition you can put a JS phase plugin anywhere.)

Given that you can switch phase per item and per send, we think it makes sense to have the track phase be where it is in the signal path. The suggestion to move track phase earlier in the signal path would effectively be making the track phase button into an item phase button that affects all items.

FWIW using actions, you can currently select all items on a track and then toggle item phase.
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Old 02-19-2009, 10:17 AM   #10
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I guess, the phase switches are post FX, because this allows to switch phases of sound generated in instrument plugins. So I guess a change here is not very likely in the near future.

Maybe a way to solve the send problem is possible by slaveing the phase switches on sends to the one on the tcp? So new sends would be created with the switch at the same setting as the tcp's and when the tcp switch is toggled, the existing send switches toggle too? Which would make a fake pre-send phase switch if I don't overlook something.

Yes, an in depht signal flow chart would be great.

EDIT: ah yes, that does make sense, schwa. Way easier to just flip all items.

Last edited by gofer; 02-19-2009 at 10:21 AM.
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Old 02-19-2009, 10:20 AM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by schwa View Post
The suggestion to move track phase earlier in the signal path would effectively be making the track phase button into an item phase button that affects all items.
Maybe an global option to set the desired behaviour?


What do you think of the signal flow chart idea?
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Old 02-19-2009, 01:19 PM   #12
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................

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Old 02-19-2009, 04:07 PM   #13
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We had a flowchart a loooong time ago. After a brief description by Justin, I starting drawing up my own. Perhaps it's helpful for you folks here until Cockos include one in Reaper itself.

Please check this for errors so I can correct them. I made this in Xara, but here's an SVG export for folks who'd like to use this in Inkscape: https://stash.reaper.fm/oldsb/119540/...signalflow.zip
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Old 02-19-2009, 06:03 PM   #14
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Here's a work in progress newish version:

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Old 02-19-2009, 09:32 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by airon View Post
Please check this for errors so I can correct them. I made this in Xara, but here's an SVG export for folks who'd like to use this in Inkscape: https://stash.reaper.fm/oldsb/119540/...signalflow.zip
Yeah, I found at least one big error:

The main track "Mute" button acts totally different. It comes in front of all sends BUT after the inserts (you can see this with disables "do not process muted tracks"). Don't know how to draw this in your diagram ...


Not sure if I really like the "Mute" button function as a "disable track" basically. There are situations where it doesn't make any sense. A dedicated "disable track" function would be much better. The "Mute" button then shouldn't mute pre-fx sends for example.

Last edited by Dstruct; 02-19-2009 at 09:37 PM.
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Old 02-19-2009, 09:38 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Justin View Post
Here's a work in progress newish version:

Nice Justin! Keep it coming!
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Old 02-20-2009, 05:13 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dstruct View Post
Yeah, I found at least one big error:

The main track "Mute" button acts totally different. It comes in front of all sends BUT after the inserts (you can see this with disables "do not process muted tracks"). Don't know how to draw this in your diagram ...
You'd do it like a break switch. Signal flow diagrams of mixers will be the best and most consistent source of a way to draw this. I wouldn't copy the design exactly, as the diagram needs to be helpful to new users as well.

Quote:
Not sure if I really like the "Mute" button function as a "disable track" basically. There are situations where it doesn't make any sense. A dedicated "disable track" function would be much better. The "Mute" button then shouldn't mute pre-fx sends for example.
Probably only an option or two away, but holy jumping jack flash Justin, that's a big one that just about fits my screen width. Looks pretty good to me. Nice and simple.

You need to pack a lot of information in the media item box. How about structuring the input boxes a little like this:
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Old 02-20-2009, 06:20 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dstruct View Post
Yeah, I found at least one big error:

The main track "Mute" button acts totally different. It comes in front of all sends BUT after the inserts (you can see this with disables "do not process muted tracks"). Don't know how to draw this in your diagram ...
yes, annoying cause you cant send a pre fade send to a recive track and then mute the original track without losing signal in the recive track, (I occasionally want to be able to do this)



Quote:
Originally Posted by Dstruct View Post

Not sure if I really like the "Mute" button function as a "disable track" basically. There are situations where it doesn't make any sense. A dedicated "disable track" function would be much better. The "Mute" button then shouldn't mute pre-fx sends for example.
much rather have a disable track function

also the ability to then hide the track from the TCP (and MCP at the same time)

airon, your chart looks nice and simple to follow, Justins will take a bit more studying, have to print that one out and go over it, certainly not for newbees
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Old 02-20-2009, 07:59 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sonic Vampire View Post
yes, annoying cause you cant send a pre fade send to a recive track and then mute the original track without losing signal in the recive track, (I occasionally want to be able to do this)
I try this everytime I try to apply some verb to vox being recorded... then I unmute the source track, make the send to the Verb FX bus pre-fader, drop the fader.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sonic Vampire View Post
much rather have a disable track function
Or perhaps a Soft Mute ( a mod-clicked mute?) that mutes the output of a track postFX, Post Sends, but allows the sends to ring through?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sonic Vampire View Post
also the ability to then hide the track from the TCP (and MCP at the same time)
sws_extension.exe will allow this already.

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Old 02-21-2009, 12:40 AM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallisman View Post
I try this everytime I try to apply some verb to vox being recorded... then I unmute the source track, make the send to the Verb FX bus pre-fader, drop the fader.
but using the mute button for this would be much faster. you also don't need to remember its level this way.
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Old 02-21-2009, 12:43 AM   #21
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yes I agree.
that is why I proposed a mod+mute click that simply keeps the track out of the master, but does not mute sends and offline media.

.t
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Old 02-21-2009, 01:22 AM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallisman View Post
that is why I proposed a mod+mute click that simply keeps the track out of the master, but does not mute sends and offline media.
If so, then mod+mute should "disable" the track. mute shouldn't mute the pre-fader sends.
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Old 02-21-2009, 01:38 AM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallisman View Post
Or perhaps a Soft Mute ( a mod-clicked mute?) that mutes the output of a track postFX, Post Sends
sure! Optionally. mostly, when I mute I want it all dead - mostly

.t
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Old 02-21-2009, 03:45 AM   #24
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Mute should definitely mute everything, since the Master/Parent send can easily be unchecked in the IO-window. If I would ever record only the reverbs, I would definately do it in the FX channel (rec output).

But the phase switch does worry me quite a bit. When flipping a phase of snare bottom, it is ofcourse desirable to have all outputs flipped. Who would ever want to flip just the master output?!

"Sends follow track phase" option would be a decent solution. I think it should default as checked.
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Old 02-21-2009, 06:31 AM   #25
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I like the way it works at the moment, because I use the sends more for routing than send-FX, but I could see how if you spent every day working with multi-mic'd drumkits it might be a chore. But perhaps the workflow of flipping the polarity of the audio at the item level would be better for that anyway, since you'd be getting your phases all square at the very first step in the chain?
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Old 02-21-2009, 09:03 AM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by White Tie View Post
But perhaps the workflow of flipping the polarity of the audio at the item level would be better for that anyway, since you'd be getting your phases all square at the very first step in the chain?
Thinking about a band recording where the band wants to listen to each take, it would be most unconvenient to flip the item phases after each take. When a very rough mix has been made including flipped phases and quick reverbs, each take should definitely fit in the same mix.

Does an analogue mixer flip the phase before or after sends?
And in Reaper, in which situations would you flip the phase of the channel but not the sends? I just can't think of any.
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Old 02-21-2009, 09:05 AM   #27
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Quote:
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Thinking about a band recording where the band wants to listen to each take, it would be most unconvenient to flip the item phases after each take. When a very rough mix has been made including flipped phases and quick reverbs, each take should definitely fit in the same mix.
Exactly that's the situation.
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Old 02-21-2009, 09:13 AM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallisman View Post
yes I agree.
that is why I proposed a mod+mute click that simply keeps the track out of the master, but does not mute sends and offline media.

.t
That mod+mute could mute the signal at the fader, as illustrated below. That's the behavior and flexibility I'd expect, but does it have bad consequences on anyones workflow ?

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Old 02-21-2009, 09:24 AM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mrelwood View Post
it would be most unconvenient to flip the item phases after each take.
Very good point ...I stand corrected; that would indeed drive me mad.
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Old 02-21-2009, 09:38 AM   #30
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Good point indeed.

Should people then expect the current behavior to be the non-default ? placing the polarity change at the start of the signal flow, just after the summing of all the sources, would be the expected behavior. Anyone who wishes to do it differently could still do so.

Aside from this practical issue, the polarity switch sits on most preamps, which are the start of any signal chain. So it's also a habit for people to expect it to sit there in a track's signal flow.
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Old 02-23-2009, 06:46 PM   #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mrelwood View Post
in which situations would you flip the phase of the channel but not the sends? I just can't think of any.
Oh hi guys
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Old 06-30-2009, 03:18 PM   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Justin View Post
Here's a work in progress newish version:

What happened with it?
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Old 07-09-2009, 03:43 PM   #33
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Maybe be able to right-click on the phase button to have the phase reversal applied pre fx.
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Old 07-11-2009, 12:27 AM   #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by labyrinth View Post
Maybe be able to right-click on the phase button to have the phase reversal applied pre fx.
Would be dope!
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Old 07-11-2009, 09:00 AM   #35
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Has anyone done a FR?
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Old 07-11-2009, 09:15 AM   #36
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Code:
Item
|
Item Phase
|
-> Pre-FX Send
|
FX
|
-> Pre-fader (Post-FX)
|
Volume fader
|
Track Phase ???
|
-> Post-fader (Post-Pan)
|
Parent
Where is the Pre-Pan Send? Does one exist?
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Old 07-11-2009, 09:28 AM   #37
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I would say after the item phase.
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Old 07-11-2009, 09:46 AM   #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by labyrinth View Post
Has anyone done a FR?
Yes: http://forum.cockos.com/project.php?issueid=535
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Old 12-21-2011, 09:03 AM   #39
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Oh goodness, the current position of the track polarity inversion plays havoc with the crosstalk feature in the new Sknote Stripbus v2 ... :-/
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Old 12-21-2011, 10:11 AM   #40
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Yeah, though we can switch items' phase I think a change in tracks' phase position would be a huge improvement because well, let's face it, it's way simpler

+1 bump
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