Favourite "bad" mixes

[brainwreck]

Originally Posted by kirk1701

I do not care for Zeppelin, I'm afraid. This is why I mentioned them. The entire 70s rock scene seems distilled into Zeppelin. The only drummer anyone knows from that era is Bonham. They're overrated. Black Sabbath actually did what Zeppelin is supposed to be so awesome at. And Sabbath didn't blatantly steal anyone else's songs.

I don't necessarily dislike Zeppelin (I'm not a big fan though), but I could probably name 100 bands/artists from that era that I think are more interesting to listen to (I agree on Black Sabbath).

And I never liked their recorded sound. No low end and big room all over everything, which I guess floats some people's boat, but I was always more of a fan of tighter and drier sounds, like watching a band play in a living room rather than a stadium.

[Jeffsounds]

I thought Zep's first 4 albums were good but then they went to hell IMHO... and I have always thought Page was SO over-rated! He's got to be the sloppiest guitar player on the planet, next to me. He has great ideas, but when getting them from his brain to his fingers, something happens and it just doesn't fully connect.

[future fields]

Originally Posted by Jeffsounds

I thought Zep's first 4 albums were good but then they went to hell IMHO... and I have always thought Page was SO over-rated! He's got to be the sloppiest guitar player on the planet, next to me. He has great ideas, but when getting them from his brain to his fingers, something happens and it just doesn't fully connect.

Page was never the most fluid player. It's about what he writes, how he phrases things, the chords he chooses etc. and his songs tend to have more parts to them.

Versus guys like Hendrix and Clapton who were more fluid players but comparatively wrote less intricate compositions.

Also I think their records were a little more interesting to listen too because Page was experimental in his production style. They werent the sonically best and biggest sounding records, but they had more vibe than most. That you can hear so many mistakes and imperfections only adds to the vibe and impact IMO.

[brainwreck]

Originally Posted by future fields

but they had more vibe than most.

That is arguable.

To me this has more 'vibe' than any Zepplin song ever did (as did a ton of other bands from the era): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3-dx...9C14iVRgyT36iQ

Personally though, I have nothing against Jimmy Page's playing. To me he wasn't a terribly exciting 'player', but as you said, he had some great skills in writing music. My biggest turnoffs of Zeppelin are the singing and the overall sound.

[karbomusic]

He's got to be the sloppiest guitar player on the planet, next to me.

Yet he was a top studio cat on loads of sessions. It's a common thing to conflate imperfect execution and what the phrase is to begin with - and it's often not imperfect execution anyway. Many of his phrases and motifs are far above average, especially feel wise. Sometimes one is hearing a mistake, many times the mistake is not actually a mistake at all. You usually can't really have a gig like that one, that long with people like JPJ, Bonham, Plant and not be good, real good - even if it's your band. That doesn't also mean there aren't of recordings of them being sloppy, there are.

I was actually a page hater for many years FWIW, but respect him far more than I used to.

[Glennbo]

Originally Posted by karbomusic

Yet he was a top studio cat on loads of sessions.

Guess who this cheezy guitar player is!

https://youtu.be/Y-X4rmwbtns?t=87

I used to be kind of a snob about anything that wasn't difficult to play and executed flawlessly. That was then, this is now. Now I fire up shit like Rolling Stones "19th Nervous Breakdown" and jam along on drums to amuse myself. Fricken great song, with some of the sloppiest playing, but that is exactly what gives it it's soul.

[karbomusic]

Originally Posted by Glennbo

I used to be kind of a snob about anything that wasn't difficult to play and executed flawlessly. That was then, this is now. Now I fire up shit like Rolling Stones "19th Nervous Breakdown" and jam along on drums to amuse myself. Fricken great song, with some of the sloppiest playing, but that is exactly what gives it it's soul.

Right and there is a line there between "sounds sloppy" and that actually being the groove. A random example is when pushing or pulling by one member, where that uneasy tension it creates IS the feeling that is supposed to be occurring. That and coming up with what to play and production is really his strong point, executing it in concert not so much though due to the more stoner druggy improv which I never really cared for due to the sloppy kind of sloppy. If we're talking a lot of that live stuff, yea, slop city much of the time.

[Glennbo]

Originally Posted by karbomusic

Right and there is a line there between "sounds sloppy" and that actually being the groove. A random example is when pushing or pulling by one member, where that uneasy tension it creates IS the feeling that is supposed to be occurring. That and coming up with what to play and production is really his strong point, executing it in concert not so much though due to the more stoner druggy improv which I never really cared for due to the sloppy kind of sloppy. If we're talking a lot of that live stuff, yea, slop city much of the time.

What I refer to as sloppy is the slack you refer to. Individual members pushing the beat is what happens in the Stones song I mentioned.

I remember when I saw the Jeff Beck at Ronnie Scott's video and mentioned it in another group, someone said they wished he would go back to playing with a pick instead of using his fingers and they thought he sounded sloppy because of it. I disagree and think he plays quite well for an old dood.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZFx__GfJHWw

[karbomusic]

But it's Jeff, he's like an alien or something.

[Glennbo]

Originally Posted by karbomusic

But it's Jeff, he's like an alien or something.

I think it gets down to the listener and where their head is at when they are listening. Stuff I thought I hated when I was younger sounds as good to me now as anything else I've ever liked. It's that my perspective of what constitutes "good" has changed.

Beck is freekin' great. I saw him with the Mahavishnu Orchestra in the mid 70s in OKC and later out at the Santa Monica Civic Auditorium in the 80s with Jan Hammer.

[karbomusic]

Originally Posted by Glennbo

I think it gets down to the listener and where their head is at when they are listening. Stuff I thought I hated when I was younger sounds as good to me now as anything else I've ever liked. It's that my perspective of what constitutes "good" has changed.

I think it's exactly that and it makes me much more humble than before.

[kirk1701]

Originally Posted by future fields

Versus guys like Hendrix and Clapton who were more fluid players but comparatively wrote less intricate compositions.

This is demonstrably incorrect, but I'm not going to argue.

If Zep reaches you, no one can argue with that. You don't have to defend it.

They don't reach me and same applies.

People dig what they dig. That's the only measure of "good or bad."

[Glennbo]

What is the most important attribute of a great guitarist?

In no specific order,

1. Speed
2. Hairstyle
3. Accuracy
4. Imagination
5. Level of dexterity
6. Cool fashion accessories
7. Ability to get along with other members of the band

For me it used to be all about 1 and 3 unless it was someone in my band and then it was all about 7.

[future fields]

Originally Posted by kirk1701

This is demonstrably incorrect, but I'm not going to argue.

If Zep reaches you, no one can argue with that. You don't have to defend it.

They don't reach me and same applies.

People dig what they dig. That's the only measure of "good or bad."

"You're opinion is incorrect! Here, read mine..."

You're a clown.

[kirk1701]

Originally Posted by future fields

"You're opinion is incorrect! Here, read mine..."

You're a clown.

Whoa! Dial it back, dude!

Read my post again. Or don't. You could also get pissed at a complete stranger.

(FYI, I clearly pointed out that taste is the deciding factor.)

This is so far off topic now.

[kirk1701]

Originally Posted by Glennbo

What is the most important attribute of a great guitarist?

In no specific order,

1. Speed
2. Hairstyle
3. Accuracy
4. Imagination
5. Level of dexterity
6. Cool fashion accessories
7. Ability to get along with other members of the band

For me it used to be all about 1 and 3 unless it was someone in my band and then it was all about 7.

Respectfully, I think this is for a separate thread.

[xpander]

Originally Posted by kirk1701

What's your favourite mix/record/album that's considered "bad" by internet engineers?

Don't know about the internet engineers, but easily one of my favorite albums ever is Queensryche's Operation: Mindcrime. I know that they went intentionally for a "cold and harsh" digital soundscape when recording it, but to me the eerie concept and great songs diminished any possible fail the album would've had sonics wise. What's even better, couple of years later they were finally able to record and release the whole album as a audio/video package Operation: Livecrime. Not only did it sound better, but they also managed to make one of the greatest live concert releases ever...imho of course.

Other one I had more of a love/hate relationship with was RHCP's Californication. Loved some of the songs, but literally couldn't stand the ear grating audio for more than a few songs at a time. What a let down especially compared to Blood Sugar Sex Magik.

[serr]

Originally Posted by future fields

Page was never the most fluid player. It's about what he writes, how he phrases things, the chords he chooses etc. and his songs tend to have more parts to them.

Versus guys like Hendrix and Clapton who were more fluid players but comparatively wrote less intricate compositions.

Also I think their records were a little more interesting to listen too because Page was experimental in his production style. They werent the sonically best and biggest sounding records, but they had more vibe than most. That you can hear so many mistakes and imperfections only adds to the vibe and impact IMO.

Originally Posted by karbomusic

Yet he was a top studio cat on loads of sessions. It's a common thing to conflate imperfect execution and what the phrase is to begin with - and it's often not imperfect execution anyway. Many of his phrases and motifs are far above average, especially feel wise. Sometimes one is hearing a mistake, many times the mistake is not actually a mistake at all. You usually can't really have a gig like that one, that long with people like JPJ, Bonham, Plant and not be good, real good - even if it's your band. That doesn't also mean there aren't of recordings of them being sloppy, there are.

I was actually a page hater for many years FWIW, but respect him far more than I used to.

(Most of) what they said. ^^^

Going for some hipster cred ripping on Zeppelin mixes?!
Any and all opinions are fair game and all. Fair enough to not like them. Everyone else's favorite band sucks and all that. Seems kind of silly when there are truly amateur bad mixes out there though. And where you can tell someone was intending to be serious - not just some angsty punk rock cassette.

Zep mixes have some serious simple old school charm with a lot of room recording. The sound of the drums in a room captured from just one or two mics in the sweet spot. A simple guitar mix with with direct vs room panned hard to the sides. Probably doesn't translate to the ear bud listeners very well since the mix doesn't all live on the surface. Probably one of the things I like about it!

Zeppelin mixes don't measure up to something like Dark Side of the Moon mixed in 4.0 quad with all the innovative techniques, wild arrangement, and sound in motion around the room. (Or Bitches Brew quad if you prefer.) But there aren't any distractions or problems.

There are certainly things to talk about with the mastering of Zep albums over the years though! I thought the original vinyl had them framed the best with frequency balance and dynamic range. The new 24 bit HD masters are welcome with clearly eliminating the tape generational copies in those originals. The detail is great but the frequency balance is imperfect to my ear. Too bright!! Someone needs their hearing checked. Otherwise the rest of us are going to need our hearing checked after trying to listen to these at higher volumes! And then everything in-between (vinyl re-pressings and all the CDs) sounded like ass. The too bright HD masters are the first time their last two studio albums have ever been heard IMHO because the original vinyl mastering was THAT bad.


There's some grey area in this thread with mastering damage vs actual bad mix I think.

Someone mentioned Black Sabbath. (One of my very favorite bands.)
These albums are also examples of ones that are highly susceptible to mastering damage. And have been run through the volume war meat grinder many times over! For such a popular band, their albums are incredibly hard to find with the fidelity intact. But even on the shit copies, I think you can still identify that it's mastering damage vs a poor mix. Or maybe not...

The RHCP Californication...
Just had someone mention this as an example they'd like their master to hit...
This freakin' album hits -6 LUFS ffs! This is one of the ground zero volume war casualties. Know what saved the client's album? Streaming services! I demo'd how it would just get turned down and they heard their album A/B'd with it and sounding better to them. A close one! They went with my suggestion of -10 LUFS for the CD version and -13 for the 24 bit master in the end. JFHC that album though! I found an alleged HD version of it online but it originated from a vinyl edition. Sounded less distorted. I suppose the mix sounded like it was quickly done and nothing to write home about. Nothing wrong with it though at the same time.

I think we need a thread about favorite and well made mixes that were destroyed in mastering!
(Justin may need more server space. )

[Jeffsounds]

Originally Posted by xpander

Don't know about the internet engineers, but easily one of my favorite albums ever is Queensryche's Operation: Mindcrime. I know that they went intentionally for a "cold and harsh" digital soundscape when recording it, but to me the eerie concept and great songs diminished any possible fail the album would've had sonics wise. What's even better, couple of years later they were finally able to record and release the whole album as a audio/video package Operation: Livecrime. Not only did it sound better, but they also managed to make one of the greatest live concert releases ever...imho of course.

I'm listening to Suite Sister Mary right now! Love that album and I have the Livecrime DVD as well.

[chip mcdonald]

Originally Posted by xpander

Don't know about the internet engineers, but easily one of my favorite albums ever is Queensryche's Operation: Mindcrime.

Wow, yeah, that's almost my "label" for "bad digital". I couldn't listen to it.

Another along the same vein is Chris Cornell's first solo record. Which I love, except...

... it sounds like the whole thing was recorded through a Line 6 Pod. Everything the drums, bass, and the vocals just makes my brain itch and say "LINE 6 POD. LINE 6 POD".

Ahrgh.

[chip mcdonald]

Let me think...

.... how many times have I heard a non-musician remark that

"Bonham was overrated"

and that

"Jimmy Page was sloppy"?


Hmm. I literally CAN'T COUNT HOW MANY TIMES I'VE HEARD THAT.




But some say Christie Brinkley has sharp knees, so I suppose I need to reevaluate my standards. I'm sure Mr. Page is very concerned about how people noticed how sloppy he was, a tragic disaster. Just think what could have been!

[chip mcdonald]

Wait...

.... this thread is missing a post about how lousy Ringo was, and how Lars can't play either? What's wrong with you people!

[Aeolian]

If we start on Lars, then Kirk will be next.

Cue the wah-wah jibes.


Meanwhile, both are safely residing in their very large abodes, contemplating the fact that they actually wrote and recorded MOP and RTL.


As sloppo as Page was, the guy conceived and produced Kashmir, a masterpiece in anyone's language... even kirk1701 would agree.

[MikComposer]

Maniac - John Maus

[Zlornick]

Originally Posted by Softsynth

He liked everything bright and punchy.
https://www.musicradar.com/news/lisa...e-fk-out-of-it

I guess it was the pop star in him. Still a curious choice to mix the bass so low considering he was at heart a funk artist. The last thing you think of in funk is bass mixed to barely noticeable levels.

Another "bad mix" I love is Blowout Comb by the Digable Planets, where the vocals are mixed so low that you have to strain to hear them, which apparently was an artistic choice by the group with Dave Darlington on board for production and mixing. But still, when was the last time you listened to hip-hop and thought the vocals were too low in the mix?

[morgon]

Originally Posted by MikComposer

Maniac - John Maus

Cool track, I wasn't aware of him before now, excellent talent.

[Zerododo]

Originally Posted by Softsynth

Literally anything by The Boards Of Canada. However they sound distorted and Lo-Fi by design.

amen bro.

[brainwreck]

Lots of old Guided by Voices stuff.

[bolgwrad]

Jimmy Page? Notorious hack plagiarist. JEFF BECK, mate.

Back to topic; it's interesting how many times a phrase like "terrible engineering, but the song cuts through" comes up. Bear this in mind next time you're on your 351st mix, trying to get it right.

[vdubreeze]

Originally Posted by Glennbo

What I refer to as sloppy is the slack you refer to. Individual members pushing the beat is what happens in the Stones song I mentioned.

I remember when I saw the Jeff Beck at Ronnie Scott's video and mentioned it in another group, someone said they wished he would go back to playing with a pick instead of using his fingers and they thought he sounded sloppy because of it. I disagree and think he plays quite well for an old dood.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZFx__GfJHWw

I love the Spinal Tapesque spelling of Dolby. It puts me right in the mood.

[vdubreeze]

When the first MC5 album came out, I was “wtf is this horrible sounding shit”. A few decades later, after reading an article about the story behind them and how they recorded it I downloaded it and gave it another listen and decided, for about a month, it was great.

[chip mcdonald]

Originally Posted by Glennbo

I remember when I saw the Jeff Beck at Ronnie Scott's video and mentioned it in another group, someone said they wished he would go back to playing with a pick instead of using his fingers and they thought he sounded sloppy because of it.

That person is a moron.

The defining characteristic as a musician for "sloppy" should be what the non-musically educated audience member thinks of as "sloppy".

Jimmy Page's career has been pretty good for being a "sloppy" guitar player. And Beck at 75 years old is about the most progressive and creative guitar player walking the planet.

"Sushi is just raw fish. Monet just made blurry paintings. The Beatles were hacks."

Dunning-Kruger is a blight on the 21st century.

[serr]

Yeah, anyone calling Jeff Beck sloppy is an absolute moron. Dude plays with the full dynamic range of the amp'd electric guitar under his control and has perfect pitch. He could literally play a detuned guitar perfectly in pitch with bending and whammy. Makes sounds like no one else. Takes huge risks with tricky parts in the music. (Stuff like hitting a harmonic like a bell and pitching it around with the whammy for a line. Super exposed parts that would train-wreck the whole thing with just a little flub.)

Not too shabby mixes on many of his solo albums either and he went surround sound way back in the day.

My favorite band may suck but you can't call Jeff Beck sloppy. Not in any universe.

[cassembler]

Def Leppard's "On Through the Night." Straight, raw, mid-budget rock, and it sounds like it. Come for the sweet kick, stay for the tasty, forgotten riffs.

Just throwing that out there...

[1111Eugene]

youtu be.com/watch?v=hACatkW7CU0