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Old 09-21-2010, 08:12 AM   #81
musicbynumbers
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Very interesting point Bullshark, had not heard the below theory although I did watch a program recently which talked about the possible fact that the universe is actually smaller than we think and that some of the galaxies we perceive are actually just "wrap arounds" or even reflections of galaxies in the opposite direction. Perhaps infinity could still be accounted for by an infinite amount of big bangs and contractions/big crunches, or the light not reaching us due to the dubious dark matter interacting with it in ways we are unfamiliar with, perhaps this light is been red shifted to a point that we can not detect a wavelength that large or lastly the god busting multiverse theory were they all co-exist and via dark matter interact with light in a way which counters this.

A good thing here though is by mentioning what you did. I now have a valid reason to perhaps change my view point on a infinite universe which is the beauty of science, it is allowed to change (although sometimes it gets a little dogmatic) as am I.

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An universe infinite in space implies that it is also infinite in time, and the conclusion one can derive from such an universe don't agree with observation; an example of that: a universe infinite in time means that all the light emitted from all the objects within it would have had time to reach us. We'd literally be bathed in light, night and day. But that isn't what we observe.

One funny side effect of an infinite universe thought, if we were to do away with the necessity to attach time to it via some yet unknown cosmic law, is that there would be an infinite amount of exact copy of our solar system and everything it contain, right down to the people in it including me writing this forum post. A physicist even calculated the maximum distance before we would be sure to find this exact copy.

A fascinating subject anyway, way more fascinating once it is freed of religion.
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Old 09-21-2010, 08:13 AM   #82
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Disrespect is still far greater consideration than the theists have given the non-theists in circumstances when they were in charge. Now that the mythically minded have started to be dethroned in certain arenas, be happy that disrespect and snark is the worst you have to contend with. There are those of us with long memories who would be more than happy to see the favor of stake-burnings returned upon the original perpetrators.
It would be a mistake to attribute the horror committed in the past in the name of religion to people who still believe, or claim to, living today. But at the same time we do have to stand guard to make sure the opportunity for religion to resurface and destroy people lives like it once did does not appear again. Every time we give the opportunity for blind faith to replace reason and free thinking, we slide back a little.
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Old 09-21-2010, 08:15 AM   #83
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Not only have I read most of the bible from my time "in the club" I also have read up on sumerian and babylonian doctrines (not to mention eygptology) and you'd be surprised at some of the things you would be familiar with in there musicroom.

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Can't speak for musicbynumbers, but I also consider the god character described in the bible as a psychopath. Not out of anger, anger against a fictional entity would be ridiculous, but simply going by the description and action of the character as written in that book as if it was any other book. For instance, there are many characters in Stephen King's books that I would describe as psychopaths, and I can make that assessment without getting angry, or believing the characters to be real.

If you decide to view this as disrespect to you personally, well, seems to me that this is your problem.

And yes, contrary to what you might assume, a lot of people who don't believe in deity have actually read and studied the bible, the whole thing and not just small passages that make us feel good, and that include me.
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Old 09-21-2010, 08:34 AM   #84
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Silence! There will be no more questions. No more thinking. It is forbidden.
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Old 09-21-2010, 08:35 AM   #85
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Originally Posted by bullshark View Post
It would be a mistake to attribute the horror committed in the past in the name of religion to people who still believe, or claim to, living today. But at the same time we do have to stand guard to make sure the opportunity for religion to resurface and destroy people lives like it once did does not appear again. Every time we give the opportunity for blind faith to replace reason and free thinking, we slide back a little.
Yes, in case it wasn't clear from my snarkiness, my comments were meant rhetorically not as support for rounding up and killing anybody.

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And yes, contrary to what you might assume, a lot of people who don't believe in deity have actually read and studied the bible, the whole thing and not just small passages that make us feel good, and that include me.
Yep, I read and write Hebrew and Aramaic and am quite familiar with pre-NT literature including the so-called "Oral Law" and other apocryphal odds and ends (not to mention a wide body of Eastern liturgy as well). I speak from a position of knowing precisely what I'm rejecting.
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Old 09-21-2010, 10:41 AM   #86
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Originally Posted by ngarjuna View Post
Disrespect is still far greater consideration than the theists have given the non-theists in circumstances when they were in charge. Now that the mythically minded have started to be dethroned in certain arenas, be happy that disrespect and snark is the worst you have to contend with. There are those of us with long memories who would be more than happy to see the favor of stake-burnings returned upon the original perpetrators.
Okie dokie! Stake burnings? Pretty primitive initiative. Don't like them, burn'em approach. I should be happy with only disrespect!?? ?? Long memories? Really.? Assumption is that I don't have a long memory.?

I am absolutely sorry to have been a part of any statements you have written. I really am. I really need to get out more, for I had no idea there were people who thought this way and consider themselves normal thinking people. Religious or not, that is not the point right now. There is a definition for that kind of thinking in the first paragraph that has been mentioned here previously about God and I objected. Wow. Anyway, I've had my say, and will stay in this thread for another day to respond, but then I am out of this thread. Hopefully this is not a sampling of all Reaper user's beliefs.
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Old 09-21-2010, 12:50 PM   #87
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One another note - I am still waiting on science to describe to me the beginning before the beginning. Should be any day now. Probably show as as a vst. Some kind of eternal plugin with no reference to time and space. Ouch, reminds me, how did space get here for it all to start before it started... Now we need a vst like pre-eternal. But then what about before that... I give up, I'll let a human write me a book about it.
Why not save a step: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JkZNnD99Ap4
It is really meaningless to try to use God as the first cause. If you follow the (known) dominoes back to the first in the line and think that it couldn't have fallen on it's own it doesn't help to just add one more by saying that something called a "God" must've started it off.

Even if you can justify a belief in "God" by that reasoning, it's a huge leap to make it the God of Christianity. You could only say that there was "something" that started things moving; there is no evidence or logic that support that idea that whatever that was is the same thing people wrote about in the bible.

"Oh well the universe couldn't have come from nothing so Jesus must be the son of God and if I follow him I will go to heaven when I die." That just doesn't make any sense.
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Old 09-21-2010, 01:57 PM   #88
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Why not save a step: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JkZNnD99Ap4
It is really meaningless to try to use God as the first cause. If you follow the (known) dominoes back to the first in the line and think that it couldn't have fallen on it's own it doesn't help to just add one more by saying that something called a "God" must've started it off.

Even if you can justify a belief in "God" by that reasoning, it's a huge leap to make it the God of Christianity. You could only say that there was "something" that started things moving; there is no evidence or logic that support that idea that whatever that was is the same thing people wrote about in the bible.

"Oh well the universe couldn't have come from nothing so Jesus must be the son of God and if I follow him I will go to heaven when I die." That just doesn't make any sense.
Seriously you sent a youtube of Carl Sagan's save-a-step to support your effort? Sounds like convenience store life choices for the self serving. Not interested.
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Old 09-23-2010, 01:27 PM   #89
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Thank God for me!

Woohoo.
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Old 09-23-2010, 02:47 PM   #90
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Seriously you sent a youtube of Carl Sagan's save-a-step to support your effort? Sounds like convenience store life choices for the self serving. Not interested.
Convenience store life choices for the self serving would be a perfect description of your beliefs. A great deity in the sky created the universe and you, loves you, tells you how to live, sent his son to die to wash away your sins, and wants you to hang out with him forever when you die? And you didn't even have to go looking for this information, luckily the real truth about the world is exactly what your parents and your particular community have been telling you the whole time. It doesn't get more convenient and self serving than that. You don't have to ask any questions about the universe and your well being is secured as long as you just agree to believe.

"Save-a-step" is just logic, it's not anymore convenient or self serving than 1+1. Even if it wasn't, how is the idea convenient or self serving? It leaves you having to deal with all the things that God ties up in such a nice bow. How was the universe created? Do we have a purpose in life? How should we live our lives? and so on. Like Sagan says, be courageous.

Your beliefs constitute a great assertion, and they are obviously not a sure thing. For your own sake, I think you should honestly try to engage in these kind of discussions and defend yourself, instead of ignoring arguments and taking simple cheap shots. If you turn out to be right, you still benefit from the understanding and conviction you gain from defending your ideas, and if you're wrong, you wouldn't want to go on like that, would you?

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Old 09-23-2010, 03:31 PM   #91
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Some people need their belief to be true.

Some other need their beliefs to make them feel good.

It's useless trying to discuss logic, reason, truth or non truth with somebody who hold beliefs because of the good feeling of them, it simply isn't the basis for those beliefs. The basis is entirely self-serving, and reality doesn't even enter in the equation(granted that it might be fun sometime thought, but that fun is entirely self-serving as well).
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Old 09-23-2010, 03:36 PM   #92
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Some people need their belief to be true.

Some other need their beliefs to make them feel good.

It's useless trying to discuss logic, reason, truth or non truth with somebody who hold beliefs because of the good feeling of them, it simply isn't the basis for those beliefs. The basis is entirely self-serving, and reality doesn't even enter in the equation.
I may not be able to persuade him, but I don't think it's completely useless. I at least learn a bit about how people like this work, and who knows, maybe if he is challenged enough he will see the light one day. I do wish I had better things to do with my time, though.
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Old 09-23-2010, 03:40 PM   #93
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Ah yes, useless was probably a poor choice of word. It can be a fun and challenging mental exercise, and much can be learned from it.
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Old 09-23-2010, 03:46 PM   #94
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I agree.

I find that an incredible amount of intelligent discourse comes flowing from these topics which not only give me "faith" in that logic and sanity still exist, but that there are people who actually care to use their heads for more than just keeping their ears from sticking together.
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Old 11-22-2010, 08:29 AM   #95
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present to me the god that cares about capital letters and i will spit on him
Present to me some hateful exploitive asshole who spams for India Tourism and...oh my God, there you are! There is a God.
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Old 11-22-2010, 10:47 AM   #96
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present to me the god that cares about capital letters and i will spit on him
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Weren't the 15, I mean 10 commandments all caps in the mel brooks movie?
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Old 11-22-2010, 12:03 PM   #97
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present to me the god that cares about capital letters and i will spit on him
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looks like we have a new type of spam - mimicspam!

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again, present to me the god that cares about capital letters and i will spit on him
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Old 11-22-2010, 12:38 PM   #98
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No, wait. So you mean that Jason is spamming for India now? Wow, I never saw that coming...

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