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Old 12-11-2018, 03:57 PM   #1
Andaraginga
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Default How to use CC messages for guitar vst playing styles

Hello everyone,

I own Heavier7Strings (h7s, a guitar vst) and try to get to grips with the whole concept of how the playing style of that vst can be adjusted with the help of CC messages.

This is what the h7s manual says:
"You can switch between picking noise, palm muting, and normal playing by using CC #1. When or before you trigger a note, you can switch to the desired technique by adjusting CC #1 to the corresponding position."

Then it also defines some CC #1 values:
"0-37 = Normal play
38-79 = Palm muting
80-127 = Picking noise"

I googled a bit what CC means and played around in the Reaper midi editor but as that topic and technique is quite new to me, here are some rather basic questions:


1___________

What is CC #1?
Where is that in Reaper?
Is it the "01 Mod Wheel MS" in that drop down menu in the midi editor underneath the keyboard on the left?
Or is the manual talking about something completely different like a key on a keyboard and how it can be used in a live setting (because there is something like that as well, special keys that don't play a note but trigger some commands)


2__________________

What would I have to do to use that CC #1?
Would I open that "01 Mod Wheel MS" in the midi editor and then draw a line of bars that give each of the notes a certain value for "01 Mod Wheel MS"?
I tried exactly that and it seems to work, but not sure if this is the "right" way... ;-)


3________________________

Provided that this really is the way to go, there are some more points I am not clear about. Okay, I drew those bars and I can hear that indeed the sounds played are more muted the higher the bar is, but:
Is that change in sound linearly divided in 127 small steps and 41 is for example a little more muted than 40 or is it just 3 different sounds and everything in between 38 and 79 is the same?


4________________________________

Some practical stuff:
In any case, how can find out the exact value of those bars? (Their CC #1 value, so to say)
I tried right mouse click > Properties but couldn't find any information about the exact value.
And closely related to that:
How can I *set* a certain CC #1 value exactly or at least find an easy way to set values that fall in the right pool of values (0-37 or 38-79 or
80-127)? So far I was just drawing lines and could set the bars higher or lower but not more.


Thanks in advance.
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Old 12-11-2018, 04:10 PM   #2
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Andaraginga View Post
What is CC #1?
CC 1 is the Modulation Wheel. https://www.midi.org/specifications/...s-data-bytes-2

Quote:
Originally Posted by Andaraginga View Post
What would I have to do to use that CC #1?
Would I open that "01 Mod Wheel MS" in the midi editor and then draw a line of bars that give each of the notes a certain value for "01 Mod Wheel MS"?
I tried exactly that and it seems to work, but not sure if this is the "right" way... ;-)
Yup, that's correct.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Andaraginga View Post
Is that change in sound linearly divided in 127 small steps and 41 is for example a little more muted than 40 or is it just 3 different sounds and everything in between 38 and 79 is the same?
In the case of Heavier7Strings it looks like there's only three modes.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Andaraginga View Post
* In any case, how can find out the exact value of those bars? (Their CC #1 value, so to say)
How can I *set* a certain CC #1 value exactly or at least find an easy way to set values that fall in the right pool of values (0-37 or 38-79 or 80-127)?
Select the control changes then right click > Event properties (or press Ctrl+F2). It also works for MIDI notes (eg. to set a specific velocity value to one or many notes at once).


Last edited by cfillion; 12-11-2018 at 04:18 PM.
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Old 12-12-2018, 01:02 PM   #3
Andaraginga
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Thanks for your answer.

I had a more thorough look at the h7m manual today and found that there are numerous other methods to trigger a specific sound or playing style:
CC commands, velocity, key switches, multi keys, "inspiration keys"

I have to experiment a bit more and see what I need and what works best for me (now that I have a better understanding of all that ;-).

There is one more Reaper-specific question, though:
One of the possible triggers is velocity. For velocity there is also a range of different values. Among them is the value = 127 that triggers pinch harmonics.

Could it be that when I play the virtual keyboard in Reaper that all the notes have a velocity of 127?
Because it sounded to me as if I was playing pinch harmonics more or less all the time.

I wanted to "repair" this by using a midi effects plugin as input effect, that changes the velocity level before it reaches the other effects plugin but didn't know which effect and how exactly.

Is it possible that the velocity level is really always (or at least very often) 127?
Is there a way to change that and make sure that when I play I get a different velocity?
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Old 12-12-2018, 01:16 PM   #4
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The vertical mouse position sets the virtual keyboard's velocity when clicking on a note (top of the key = lowest velocity, bottom = highest). When using the keyboard shortcuts, it uses the velocity from the previous click.

(You can also change the velocity later, after recording, in the MIDI editor.)
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Old 12-13-2018, 04:15 AM   #5
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"How can I find the exact CC value?". You explained:

Quote:
Originally Posted by cfillion View Post
Select the control changes then right click > Event properties (or press Ctrl+F2). It also works for MIDI notes (eg. to set a specific velocity value to one or many notes at once).
I don't fully get it. Perhaps I don't really understand what "select the control changes" means. I made a screenshot to illustrate.



This is how my midi editor looks like. I opened 2 lanes with control changes. The 2 lanes are "01 Mod Wheel" and "Velocity".
("control changes" and "CC" is the same and "01 Mod Wheel" and "Velocity" are two examples of such "control changes", is that correct?
Just to make sure that I get the terminology right...)

Now, where exactly would I right click?

The way I understand it is that I highlight one of the bars in a CC lane and then right click there. I did that with the 5th bar from the left in the "Velocity" lane (the orangy one).

Here it works. I get a sub menu called "Note Properties" where I can change values (as shown in the screenshot).

What does *not* work is to do the same thing in the "01 Mod Wheel" lane.
Because if I right click on a bar there, it deletes that bar right away.

Can you specify:
How do I "select control changes"?
Where exactly do I have to click?
How can I do as you described for the "01 Mod Wheel" lane, as well?

Thanks
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Old 12-13-2018, 04:58 AM   #6
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"CC" is Continuous Control, as far as I know. And, yes, "01 Mod Wheel" is one of the CC messages. Velocity is different - it is not a CC message, it is an integral property of a note.

To see the exact value of a CC message:
-- right-click and drag around it to select it,
-- right-click in an empty area of its lane and select "Event properties".

Or change the MIDI Editor View to Event List, where you can see (and edit) them all.



If you select a velocity bar in the Velocity lane then you will see the properties of that Note.
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Old 12-13-2018, 05:44 AM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cfillion View Post
The vertical mouse position sets the virtual keyboard's velocity when clicking on a note (top of the key = lowest velocity, bottom = highest). When using the keyboard shortcuts, it uses the velocity from the previous click.
(You can also change the velocity later, after recording, in the MIDI editor.)
That is very interesting. I was assuming that the virtual keyboard was not velocity sensitive at all and just created notes that had all the same standard value. Very good to know how it really works ;-)

The way I have typically been using the virtual keyboard is with shortcuts, meaning that I do not mouseclick on the virtual keyboard but "fingerclick* on my computer keyboard (which then triggers the notes as defined in my "reaper-vkbmap.txt" file).

When recording with the virtual keyboard, there was one problem:
Clicking on the "record" button took away the virtual keyboard's focus. To get it back, I had to click on the virtual keyboard again somewhere.
And here, I might often have *mouseclicked* at the bottom of a key hence producing high velocity = pinch harmonics and then staying with that playing style as the velocity from that one click was preserved.

The good thing is, I know how to solve that now.
Firstly, it helps to pay attention where I click when doing that one click to get the focus back.
Secondly, I also discovered the option "Send all keyboard input to Virtual Midi Keyboard (even when other windows active)" (right click bottom bar of virtual keyboard) which seems to solve that little problem with losing focus generally.

Getting back to my old question about controlling velocity, I think there is also a good solution.

I now temporarily added "JS: Midi Veleoctiy Control" as input effect and set its "Max Velocity" to 126.
This stops all pinch harmonics when playing and should help me when using my normal keyboard which is velocity sensitive. Because playing and then suddenly having those unexpected sounds in between was rather distracting.

So much talk for no question at all.
Must seem like I only come here to show off with my problem solving abilities ;-)
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Old 12-13-2018, 07:02 AM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DarkStar View Post
"CC" is Continuous Control, as far as I know. And, yes, "01 Mod Wheel" is one of the CC messages. Velocity is different - it is not a CC message, it is an integral property of a note.
It also seemed to me that velocity was somewhat different, not that I can really explain why ;-)

And yes, googling for it, most sources seem to name it "Continuous Control".
So, just inconsistent wording in the Reaper GUI (that uses "Control Change (CC)")?


Quote:
Originally Posted by DarkStar View Post

To see the exact value of a CC message:
-- right-click and drag around it to select it,
-- right-click in an empty area of its lane and select "Event properties".
Okay, right clicking not on the message but beside it is the key.
Thanks.


As regards different settings, views and so on, I think finding the best way to utilize all the possibilities seems like the big trick. Ideally, the way it is set up in the midi editor should give a good overview of what is going on, should be easy to make changes and not clutter the midi editor too much.

The playing styles in h7s is one example. They can alternatively also be controlled via velocity instead of CC #1.
Now, what is better?
At the moment I think that CC #1 gives a little more control, but controlling via velocity could be easier and more direct because I can change settings directly on the notes and don't need yet another extra CC lane. Opinions? And no, different volumes is nothing that is needed in the kind of music I play ;-)


Two more questions:

1_
If there is a parameter that is controlled via some extra CC lane and I haven't made any settings yet (that CC lane is empty) what happens, what value is used, what is the standard value then?

Taking the CC #1 lane as an example:
Will all the notes have a value of 0 and therefore the vst will generate "normal play" (CC #1 values 0-37) and I will effectively only use and change CC #1 values if I need to create a different playing style like Palm muting (38-79) or Picking noise (80-127)?
That is how it seems to me. But I am not sure if no setting at all and an explicitly defined value between 0 and 37 is really the same.

2_
Is it correct that a CC #1 value will stay active for as long as there is no other value that overwrites it? And velocity will not?

Here in the screenshot the second bar is rather high. Will this high CC #1 value still be active for the following two notes although there is no bar right underneath them and will it only change with the next bar that sets a new CC #1 value (in the screenshot this lightly coloured area behind a bar seems to imply exactly that).



And for velocity it must be different as every midi note has its own velocity value and does overwrite the preceding one?
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Old 12-13-2018, 08:57 AM   #9
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A1: it depends on the plug-in. If no CC#01 messages are sent to the plug-in, most (as you have seen in your investigations) assume a value of 0. But, if in doubt, always insert a CC message where a specific value is needed.


A2a: Yes, CC values persist until replaced (or they are reset by e.g. stopping / starting playback). Velocity belongs to the Note. Another note at the same or a different pitch can have a different velocity.

A2b: Yes, that CC#01 value will be applied when the next 2 notes are played.

A2c: Yes, the velocity of every note can be different.

Now, the big question for you to investigate is: exactly what does the plug-in do with different note velocities - it may not just make the audio louder / softer.
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Old 12-13-2018, 08:59 AM   #10
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Quote:
Okay, right clicking not on the message but beside it is the key.
Yep, that seems odd to me too; especially for notes you have to right-click on them.
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Old 12-13-2018, 11:25 AM   #11
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The CC channel event is called "Control Change" in the MIDI specification (https://www.midi.org/specifications-...-specification starting at page 41). "Continuous controller" is used to describe some individual controller numbers (mod wheel, pan, expression...). There are continuous and switch controllers depending only on how they are used.

Quote:
The Control Change message is generally used for modifying tones with a controller other than a keyboard key.
[...]
Control numbers 64 through 69 are assigned to functions normally associated with switches (i.e. sustain or soft pedals). However these controllers can be used to send any continuous value. The reverse can also be true for a continuous controller such as Modulation Wheel. While this controller is most often used as a variable control, an on/off modulation switch can also be used. This would be accomplished by sending the Modulation Controller number (01) and a data byte of either 0 (off) or 127 (on).

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Old 12-13-2018, 04:28 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DarkStar View Post
Now, the big question for you to investigate is: exactly what does the plug-in do with different note velocities - it may not just make the audio louder / softer.
Yes, that is important and there are different options.

I think the most important distinction is how the muting style (palm mutes vs. normal play) is controlled. This can be done with
1) CC #1 -or-
2) velocity.

Depending on the that, velocity acts differently.

If muting is controlled via CC #1, velocity triggers 4 different playing modes:

* Pinch Harmonic (127)
* Play hard (98-126)
* Play soft (29-97)
* Hammer On / Pull-Off (1-28)

If muting is controlled via velocity, velocity triggers 5 different playing modes:

* Pinch Harmonic (127)
* Play hard (112-126)
* Play soft (84-111)
* Palm mutes (30-83)
* Picking noise (1-29)


As the CC value will apply to all notes in its range but velocity not, 1) CC muting will be the same for notes played at the same time, whereas 2) velocity muting could create chords where every note has a different muting style.
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