Help Getting Set Up

RESIDENT · 12-09-2018, 06:46 AM

New to Reaper and DAW's in general. After a decent amount of poking around and reading reviews, I chose Reaper for it's abilities, the support of this forum and the price was right. I have a ZOOM R16 that has been collecting dust for a few years, decided to use it as the interface. Installed the correct Windows 10 drivers (I think) and installed the trial version of Reaper. Having a little trouble getting inputs and outputs working as I imagined. Plan was to go through Zoom interface, USB to computer/Reaper, HDMI to monitor, optical out to DAC then to speakers. What I am getting is audio coming back to Zoom and then having to run main analogs out from Zoom to DAC. Was hoping to monitor all audio (monitors and headphones) from DAC. I have Reaper inputs 1-8 set but only 2 outputs appear with Zoom as only option. Is ASIO the correct method to set this up? I am open to whatever is most common or easiest to get me to the next phase. I feel like I am doing something wrong.

domzy · 12-09-2018, 08:03 AM

no, sounds right to me. You are only able to use one asio device, in reaper, at a time. you can try using the wasapi drivers and using different devices for input & output, but your latency may suffer.

RESIDENT · 12-09-2018, 08:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by domzy

no, sounds right to me. You are only able to use one asio device, in reaper, at a time. you can try using the wasapi drivers and using different devices for input & output, but your latency may suffer.

Okay thanks. Not sure what asio or wasapi actually are but I am sure that I want as little latency as possible. Will keep it how it is and just change selection on DAC as needed. Only real problem I encountered with brief experimenting with current configuration is that when listening to Reaper playback through Zoom to DAC is that the Mic in the Zoom was still hot no matter what adjustment I made. Maybe I missed something but the feedback gets attention real fast.

serr · 12-09-2018, 09:23 AM

The DAC you mention is a D to A converter box with a digital input (SPDIF or TOSLINK) right? Just a DAC box, not an interface itself?

You'd patch from a digital output from your audio interface to the DAC unit. You'd select the digital output channel pair instead of the analog output channels on your interface in Reaper. (The master hardware output assignment.)

The master hardware output (in the I/O dropdown menu) would default to channels 1/2 of whatever interface you connected. Maybe you missed that assigning the outputs of your choice was a thing?

RESIDENT · 12-09-2018, 10:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by serr

The DAC you mention is a D to A converter box with a digital input (SPDIF or TOSLINK) right? Just a DAC box, not an interface itself?

You'd patch from a digital output from your audio interface to the DAC unit. You'd select the digital output channel pair instead of the analog output channels on your interface in Reaper. (The master hardware output assignment.)

The master hardware output (in the I/O dropdown menu) would default to channels 1/2 of whatever interface you connected. Maybe you missed that assigning the outputs of your choice was a thing?

Maybe, I will have to check. What I did notice was that my computer media output shows USB to DAC with no option for SPDIF. It's a strange configuration I guess. My computer has a DisplyPort out converted to HDMI to my monitor which is a 32" TV. Then my TV is SPDIF to the DAC. Picture is kind of fuzzy, considering trying standard monitor cable out to TV so that I can actually select PC on the TV input but not sure if that would ruin my SPDIF signal? Poissible the DAC driver needs to be updated? I think Windows found current driver automatically. Thanks for reply, I will check soon.

RESIDENT · 12-09-2018, 10:36 AM

Is this what you mean? Still sending audio back to Zoom and not SPDIF from monitor which I think is selected.

Pic will not load.

Audio Device Settings
Audio System - Direct Sound
Input Device - Zoom
Output Device- TV
16 bit
Input 16 channels
Output 2 channels
44100Hz

Does this sound like the correct menu?

serr · 12-09-2018, 10:37 AM

Aha! You have the TV in the middle of that?

Then you'd need to make the HDMI connected device (the TV) + your USB audio interface into an 'aggregate device'. You use your OS audio utility for that (Audio MIDI Setup in OSX, ASIO or ASIO4ALL in Windows.) That lets you combine the devices and use both at the same time. Then select the aggregate device in Reaper instead of the single interface.

Or much much easier:

Don't combine and daisy chain the devices like this. Use a digital output from your USB interface directly to the DAC.

But if your interface doesn't include the required digital connection, then your only option might be to use the multiple devices together in aggregate device configuration.

Basically both the TV (via HDMI) and the Zoom (via USB) are both audio interfaces. To use them simultaneously, you'd need to 1. Make the aggregate device setup, and 2. Choose one device for master clock and set the other device to slave to it.

This IS a complex setup doing it that way! You may also find that the devices don't play well together. (The more "pro" interfaces with word clock ports are made to combine whereas some of the more budget units never considered that and might have issues.)

PS. If that Zoom interface is so old it only offers 16 bit... You could pick up something that would be a big upgrade for $50 on Ebay. And had the SPDIF port you were looking for as well.

RESIDENT · 12-09-2018, 10:58 AM

I originally tried to get audio from computer directly to DAC from USB with no luck. I was thinking since the audio and video are combined in the HDMI cable that I had to use SPDIF from TV. Maybe if I use a standard monitor cable then the USB cable will be allowed to send audio? New computer too... So just trying to get it all going. No cables on hand so I may try the combining signal approach you describe. And I am not sure what bit the Zoom is, but that was the default. These types of frustrating problems are exactly why I waited so long to try getting a DAW going. This is harder than playing the music!

RESIDENT · 12-09-2018, 11:07 AM

Another thing I don't quite understand is that anything I play on the computer, streaming music, youTube etc all play out the SPDIF to the DAC. But when I record to Reaper the only way I can hear playback is through the Zoom. Sounds like a Reaper output combination that I haven't hit yet. I dunno.

serr · 12-09-2018, 11:10 AM

You can only connect a device that is an audio interface to USB/firewire/thunderbolt. You cannot get audio directly from a data connection without a device designed as an interface. Don't even bother trying!

There is a simplicity to this:

Computer -> interface -> digital and/or analog audio connections

If you choose to use multiple interfaces together...
There IS more complexity as I mentioned but this is a thing.

HDMI is a bit notorious. There are restricted versions of this sold. (Usually because of 'copy protection gone wild' kind of stuff. At the end of the day, that translates to ins or outs not working and it's an intentional design flaw.) Something like that may be messing with you! Worst case is you may need to buy a more 'proper' interface. Shake down your current gear first and see what you can coax out of it of course.

You're not pushing any performance with 24 bit vs 16 bit or anything like that though. It's purely a data connection and/or digital clocking connection scenario.

I hope that helps a little!

RESIDENT · 12-09-2018, 11:22 AM

There is a simplicity to this:

Computer -> interface -> digital and/or analog audio connections

It does help. I can't stop seeing things in a traditional audio path. Hard for me to see plugging into the interface first yet the interface coming after the computer in the path. Whatever I did, I am now able to get Reaper to play back out of the SPDIF like everything else. Still can't play through the Zoom to Reaper and get signal to DAC without going analog out from Zoom to DAC. I guess that works for me. Thanks for help. I just don't want to get used to doing something the wrong way.

serr · 12-10-2018, 08:10 AM

Think of it like this:

The computer with a DAW app is your mixing board and fx rack.
The audio interface is the hardware back end of the board with all the audio connections. (Both analog and digital.)

The audio connections to and from the interface are your traditional connections.

I suggest playing around with the system to get comfortable.
Connect to one or the other interface you own. Choose the sample rate clock. Set the sample rate. Assign inputs and outputs and watch signals on the meters just where you expect them.

Digital audio devices silence themselves by design when the data stream doesn't line up with expected patterns. A good thing! Otherwise you'd get blasted out by loud noise any time something went wrong. This makes it difficult to troubleshoot a complex setup. You could simply set the clock source or sample rate incorrectly somewhere and shut yourself down.

Fergler · 12-10-2018, 08:24 AM

Quote:

Plan was to go through Zoom interface, USB to computer/Reaper, HDMI to monitor, optical out to DAC then to speakers.

Try this:

Zoom interface to computer, Zoom L/R output direct to speakers, HDMI from computer to TV sending only video. No DAC needed (the interface has it's own DAC and ADC).

Other than the HDMI which I have zero experience with, this is the normal set up for an interface. It deals with all audio. With the right driver and settings in Reaper, you should get both Reaper and Windows audio coming through the interface.

serr · 12-10-2018, 08:40 AM

I assume the whole point of the stand alone DAC was to upgrade the DA conversion for listening. That's fair enough there. You really would need a digital output from your interface to patch to the digital input on the DAC to do that of course. It sounds like the Zoom doesn't have a digital output, so a workaround was tried daisy chaining through a 2nd interface. And that 2nd interface connects via HDMI.

That's a complex setup there and it involves an HDMI device which just might have some 'copy protection gone wild' mayhem going on. I'm not even a little surprised it didn't just work on the first try!

You may still get that setup to work with a proper aggregate device setup and proper clocking connections and settings. If the DAC is boutique and expensive, I'd just get a different audio interface with the digital output I needed. Lots of little interfaces available with a simple digital output for cheap! There's no need to fight something like this.

If you don't have the digital output on your current USB interface, and if the HDMI interface is not playing nice with other devices (as they sometimes do), the only option right here right now would be to just use the analog outputs on the Zoom.

If you have a pricey boutique DAC, investing $50 - $100 for a more convenient interface should be the obvious choice. If that's an assumption on the DAC and it's actually cheap too... a modest little interface would be an upgrade across the board.

RESIDENT · 12-10-2018, 07:54 PM

Sorry I didn't see these posts sooner. Got sidetracked trying to get a 720p TV monitor to look decent. The DAC is a Maverick Audio TubeMagic D1 Plus DAC w/ OPA627 OpAmp & GE5670W Tube. It runs to a pair of KRK Rokit 10-3's and a KRK Rokit 12s Sub. The tube coloration is very minimal but it really tames digital streaming (Spotify/BandCamp/SomaFM/Etc) so I planned to keep it in the loop for mixing Reaper projects. I have other systems I can verify the mix on too. Still trying to get the computer up and running, still tying to figure out optimal bitrate to assign. Not in love with the Zoom but I do like having up to 8 inputs at a time. Tomorrow after work I plan to go through and try to get everything synced up, may even get a new monitor on way home. Sure will be nice when (IF) I can just turn on and hit go.
Thanks again to all for the help.

RESIDENT · 12-16-2018, 09:42 AM

I finally got the input/output situation to a place I am happy with. I make the output Zoom 16 for listening through headphones (USB back to Zoom) and just change output to Microsoft to go through DAC and monitors. Started doing some basic acoustic guitar experimenting with condenser mic. Wasn't planning on recording dry and adding effects afterwords but seems to be working fine. The main issue I am having now is a randomly repeating pop/click in the track. Almost like a metronome deep in the background, but without a tempo. When I zoom into a pop/click it looks like a square wave as opposed to the nice round waves of the guitar. Has to be a way to select the dots on the pop/click and manually pull them into a curve. Or better yet eliminate them to begin with. Not coming from chair, guitar or microphone I don't think. Is this a common problem or is there a way to track down the source?

serr · 12-16-2018, 01:58 PM

re: pops/clicks

Make sure you have selected the master sample rate clock correctly in the device you are connecting to. Make sure you aren't inadvertently sample rate converting on the fly (which can use a lot of CPU).

Single audio interface device and recording analog input?
Select the internal clock in that device.

Single audio interface device and recording digital input?
Select to clock from the digital input. (The digital source will be the master clock.)

Multiple audio interfaces in aggregate device config?
Pick one for the master clock. Slave all others to it (either with word clock if available or over a digital audio connection).

What is your latency set to? (The block size.)
If you aren't doing any live sound work (ie. monitoring live inputs through the DAW), set this to something higher like 512 or 1024 samples to save on CPU use.

If you ARE doing live work that needs low latency, you'll just have to determine what your computer/system is capable of. You may need to restrict yourself to lighter weight plugins (for one example).

RESIDENT · 12-16-2018, 02:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by serr

re: pops/clicks

Make sure you have selected the master sample rate clock correctly in the device you are connecting to. Make sure you aren't inadvertently sample rate converting on the fly (which can use a lot of CPU).

Single audio interface device and recording analog input?
Select the internal clock in that device.

Single audio interface device and recording digital input?
Select to clock from the digital input. (The digital source will be the master clock.)

Multiple audio interfaces in aggregate device config?
Pick one for the master clock. Slave all others to it (either with word clock if available or over a digital audio connection).

What is your latency set to? (The block size.)
If you aren't doing any live sound work (ie. monitoring live inputs through the DAW), set this to something higher like 512 or 1024 samples to save on CPU use.

If you ARE doing live work that needs low latency, you'll just have to determine what your computer/system is capable of. You may need to restrict yourself to lighter weight plugins (for one example).

Thanks for reply. Now I just need to find out what the master sample rate clock is, where to find it and how to sync it. Haha! I was just getting ready to download a demo of another DAW. I really don't want to start over and sounds like an issue that any DAW might encounter.

I think I fall in category 1: Single audio interface device and recording analog input?
Select the internal clock in that device.

Off to look through menus and google...
Thanks again for the lead!

serr · 12-16-2018, 02:27 PM

You understand the motor in a tape deck right?
Drags the tape across the heads at a certain speed.

The sample rate clock is the digital 'motor'. (eg. The 44.1k samples per second for the old CD format or the 96k per second modern standard for HD.) It ticks away like a metronome and the digital bits move along their path with each tick.

Got multiple digital devices?
If yes, now you need to pick one to run the clock. All the rest have to connect to it and sync to it.

If you neglect to do that and try running multiple digital devices each with their own clock (digital "motor"), all hell breaks loose as they drift apart and you get clicks and pops (initially) and eventually the audio output is silenced when the data no longer makes any sense.

That help?

RESIDENT · 12-16-2018, 02:52 PM

Thanks for quick replies, starting to make sense. Just not sure why this information wouldn't be front and center number one thing to dial in after installation? Maybe I missed it? Maybe it's automatic for some devices?

Anyway, I noticed my interface (ZoomR16) screen displays: Sample Rate = 96.0kHz.
I then went into Reaper preferences, Audio, Device, selected Zoom and changed the Samplerate box to 96000 Hz (I think it was set to 48000 and change?). Recorded a quick track and I don't think I hear the popping anymore. Back to experiment more... Thanks again and I hope I am in the right ballpark... ha

RESIDENT · 12-23-2018, 04:33 PM

I got the Zoom working pretty good, just not happy with it as an interface, so have a little Mackie Onyx coming after Christmas. I was wanting the extra channels for when I embarrass myself on the cocktail drum kit but I have options for that. So thanks to whoever suggested looking into a cheap, more modern interface. I should have done it sooner.

ivansc · 12-24-2018, 02:01 AM

Just got back home from "overseas " so missed this thread till today. Some great advice given and obviously listened to.
I dont think anyone mentioned the excellent series of free video tutorials at reaper.fm, but they are immensely helpful for all aspects of reaper, plus many are made by a real guru, Kenny Gioia. gIVE THEM A WHIRL AND i AM PREPARED TO BET YOU WILL "GET" THE ANALOGUE - TO - DIGITAL THANG A LOT EASIER.
bUGGER, i HAVE ARTHRITIS IN HANDS & CANT TOUCH TYPE. sORRY.

Also maybe try downloading and running resplendence.com`s excellent latency checker. (the pops and clicks usually result from wrong buffer settings)

And may I suggest that rather than buying a conventional mixer you go with an interface that comes with its own multitrack ASIO drivers?
Unless you are recording anaologue drum kits live and/or whole bands, you probably dont need as many inputs and outputs as you think.

I started out with a 24 in 24 out RME system, which I still use but these days since I use e-drums I have shrunk down to an 8x8 interface & sold on my other two 8x8s.
Never missed them, but the money came in handy for buying a decent mic.

RESIDENT · 12-24-2018, 07:22 AM

Yah, just found out about resplendence.com yesterday, sounds perfect for tracking down my pop/click issue. I watched some of Kenny's videos before deciding on Reaper. Followed a couple of them when I was trying to get workflow setup. One little problem I have now is that when I work on a project and save it, it creates a folder in the folder, in the folder, in the folder... every time I save the project gets deeper... So I think I need to watch that video again. Almost everything I record will be mic'ed with the exception of bass and maybe guitar direct once and a while. Starting with condenser mic'ed acoustic, then vocals, guitar/bass and maybe light drums last, all mic'ed. Backwards by many standards but forwards in order of my ability with each instrument. One other small thing I can't figure is how to get the volume of the metronome up loud enough that I can hear it while recording guitar track. It just ticks away quietly in the background and the first song I am trying to record (which I thought would be an easy one) is giving me fits with the timing.

Another thing I like about this forum is the musical open mindedness with the goal of just making the music sound the way it is intended. It helps that I can remain anonymous also, but I did not think this would be a good place to post songs and get opinions. Turns out I think it is. I guess if recording musicians is your job day in day out you eventually see it all and nothing phases you. I think the double album of music I have stored in my head is like nothing heard before. I am not saying that I am a good musician, far from it, just unusual, probably with delusions of grandeur haha.