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Old 05-20-2020, 10:33 AM   #1
ramses
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Default Am I crazy? Folders vs Sends anomaly.

Could someone please try this out to see if I'm not making some strange mistake? I'm starting to suspect something is seriously wrong here.

Put like 10-20 tracks in a folder structure, one below the other, so that they're hierachicly nested, and put an audio file on the lowest track, so that you have audio flowing from the "lowest" child track all the way to the master track.

Put some quite resource-hungry plugins on all tracks, until audio is becoming broken and system starts to act sluggish, like with play/seek behaviour and so on. This will be easier if you have a really low latency setting.

Now.

Get rid of the folder structure and eliminate all parent sends, except for the leftmost track going to the master.

"Simulate" the folder structure flow by sending the rightmost track to the one to the left of it, and so on, until the audio reaches the track going to the master.

No more stuttering. No more sluggishness.

Am I crazy, or is this a real thing? If it is, can it be explained or is something wrong with Reaper?

Win 10. 64 bit.

Last edited by ramses; 05-20-2020 at 10:49 AM.
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Old 05-20-2020, 12:00 PM   #2
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Can you post some screenshots? Or even better, set up both stes of tests and save it as a project. Upload the rpp file so we can open it and see it as you do. Don't include the plugins, just set up the tracks.
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Old 05-20-2020, 12:24 PM   #3
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Yes, sorry, jpeg attached.

So, the orange tracks are nested folders, with the top one going to the master/parent.

The blue tracks are not nested, instead each "child track" simply sends at 100% to the track above it, having it's own parent send turned off, with the top track being routed to the master/parent.
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Old 05-20-2020, 12:59 PM   #4
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I would expect that for folders there is some overhead so we going to hit stuttering quicker with a deep folder structure than a flat track structure.

What is the use case for having a nest in level so deep though? I use folders all the time but usually never more than three levels down.
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Old 05-20-2020, 02:57 PM   #5
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@Coachz: Why would you expect that? I thought the idea was that all tracks in Reaper are supposed to be the same... And I expected the parent send to be just like a regular send. What do you mean by 'overhead' more precisely? I can't imagine there's any more processing happening in either case. Either (1)folders are broken somehow, (2)I'm missing something, or (3)there's something else going on.

Having 10 layers deep might be a bit of an exaggeration, but it's not uncommon for me to have at least 5-6 levels of folders in my template. Like OH > OH bus > Drum bus > Rythm bus > Main bus > Master bus. As an example. I really like organizing in folders, but if it's less reliable and efficient I will have to rethink my whole template I think...

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Old 05-20-2020, 03:09 PM   #6
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Haven't written code for many years I would just imagine there's more code involved to manage audio through folders than not. I agree with you though that it should not be causing that problem. What are your RT CPU values?

Have you run latencymon also make sure that your PC is optimized for audio?
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Old 05-20-2020, 03:17 PM   #7
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I'll look into posting some RT Cpu data soon. Meanwhile it would be great if people tried to recreate this issue on their own systems, to try to see if it's common or more system specific.
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Old 05-20-2020, 03:38 PM   #8
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I have experienced this as well.
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Old 05-21-2020, 09:49 PM   #9
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Bump. Anyone else tested this yet?
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Old 05-22-2020, 01:58 AM   #10
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I agree that audio-wise, routing from one track to another should be exactly the same as using "parent" routing by defining folders.

A have an idea what might cause that glitch (if it in fact is a bug rather than a feature). Maybe folder tracks in certain circumstances share a common CPU thread with their children. In that case multiple cores are not exploited. You might want to use the performance Meter and/or the System task manager to see how many threads are used by Reaper in the various cases.

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Old 05-22-2020, 02:17 AM   #11
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Quote:
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I agree that audio-wise, routing from one track to another should be exactly the same as using "parent" routing by defining folders.

A have an idea what might cause that glitch (if it in fact is a bug rather than a feature). Maybe folder tracks in certain circumstances share a common CPU thread with their children. In that case multiple cores are not exploited. You might want to use the performance Meter and/or the System task manager to see how many threads are used by Reaper in the various cases.

-Michael
That sounds like a plausible explanation. I'll look into it. Thanks!
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Old 05-22-2020, 02:18 AM   #12
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Urmmm nope..but the best to test would be the devs themselves?
It seems like a workflow that might be used by many,but not i.
Why not upload the project without fx or audio loaded so people can see how your making it happen? or not.
Some users report having 000's of tracks without a single glitch..hmmm yeah? no.
Yes, I will. I figured setting up the routing was the easy part compared to putting all the plugins in to the point of the system breaking, but apparently not. I'll make a couple of templates and make them available here as soon as I have the time and opportunity. Thanks!
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Old 05-22-2020, 06:09 AM   #13
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Ok, so here's some data from Reapers performance meter.

Using nested folders:

Total CPU: 20,2%
RT CPU: 50,2%
RT longest block: 243.44ms / 0.73ms (hold)
RT xruns: 0 - Media xruns: 0
Disk read: 0B/s
Disk write: 0B/s
RAM use: 1298MB
System free: 7126/12171MB
129 FX: 4.81% CPU

Using the send method:

Total CPU: 19,7%
RT CPU: 38.3%
RT longest block: 84.17ms / 0.73ms (hold)
RT xruns: 0 - Media xruns: 0
Disk read: 134kB/s
Disk write: 0B/s
RAM use: 1308MB
System free: 7117/12171MB
129 FX: 5.21% CPU

The glitches were OBVIOUSLY worse using nested folders, to the point of audio actually sounding slowed down. One more weird thing I observed was that when using nested folders, CPU consumption actually ROSE several orders of magnitude after having stopped the audio, and came down as the audio was playing. This made Reaper very unresponsive while pressing stop or trying to reposition the play cursor for example. Weird.

I don't see any clear variety in the use of the different cpu:s using the different methods. It seems to spread out over my 8 cores using both methods.
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Old 05-22-2020, 06:17 AM   #14
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Here's the project I was using for the previous test. I've just used ReaComp with a quite large lookahead in order to get the latency going. Just mute/unmute the orange/blue tracks in order to tests it yourself. You might have to add/subtract some instances of ReaComp, or replace with other plugins, in order to have the project glitch out properly.
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Old 05-22-2020, 08:43 AM   #15
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I didn't add or replace plugins yet, but I ran both sets separately as-is and my resource usage was not dramatically different.
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Old 05-22-2020, 09:37 AM   #16
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I didn't add or replace plugins yet, but I ran both sets separately as-is and my resource usage was not dramatically different.
I wouldn't say mine is DRAMATICALLY different either, just different enough to worry about. Do you see my real time cpu numbers? And the longest block thing? Those are quite dramatic differences, if you expect the difference to be zero. But the whole point is to get the project to start glitching out using the stacked folder method and then switch to the send method. It's like night and day, and I can't explain it nor did I expect it.
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Old 05-22-2020, 11:52 AM   #17
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This appears to be relevant when using Live FX multiprocessing only (perhaps the non-folder-send scheduling is a touch more efficient). Will look to see if that's something that can be improved, the folder sends are implemented slightly differently (in a way that uses less memory), so it may or may not be worthwhile to change it.
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Old 05-22-2020, 02:44 PM   #18
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Cool Justin, thanks for investigating!
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Old 05-24-2020, 04:27 AM   #19
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This appears to be relevant when using Live FX multiprocessing only (perhaps the non-folder-send scheduling is a touch more efficient). Will look to see if that's something that can be improved, the folder sends are implemented slightly differently (in a way that uses less memory), so it may or may not be worthwhile to change it.
@Justin, just to let you know I've looked into the meaning of "live FX multiprocessing", and as I understand it it's when you have "Allow live FX multiprocessing on X CPUs" ticked under FX processing/multiprocessor settings in Preferences?

The thing is, I don't have this enabled. I'm using "Anticipative FX processing" only, so I don't think your statement is strictly accurate here. Or, I'm not following you fully.

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Old 08-16-2020, 02:17 AM   #20
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I'm curious, did anything happen regarding this issue? I've been trying to follow the pre releases, but I've not cought anything related to this...
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Old 08-16-2020, 09:24 AM   #21
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Why on earth would you want folders nested so deep. I think the audio flows thru each parent which means through all those nested plugins. The problem isn't with reaper I suspect, it's with your template design. Just my opinion, your mileage may vary.
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Old 08-16-2020, 10:47 AM   #22
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Why on earth would you want folders nested so deep. I think the audio flows thru each parent which means through all those nested plugins. The problem isn't with reaper I suspect, it's with your template design. Just my opinion, your mileage may vary.
I use folders for organizing. That's why. Working on larger projects, as I do (most of the time), and with time constraints, organizing is paramount. Using nested folders also allows for easy delivery of stems, etc, which is often expected and/or agreed upon. My template design and methodology is NOT plugin centric by any means.

The problem is not really with Reaper, since using regular sends instead of folders bypasses this issue. The problem with that approach, however, is that it stops me from organizing projects using nested folders. Using folders would be quicker and have degrees of visual control and feedback that I'm now lacking. That's the problem.
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Old 08-16-2020, 10:57 AM   #23
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Have you tried it with the folders but not using the parent send? It’s not nearly as convenient to make explicit sends in their place, but does it make a difference in the CPU usage?
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Old 08-16-2020, 06:32 PM   #24
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I use folders for organizing. That's why. Working on larger projects, as I do (most of the time), and with time constraints, organizing is paramount. Using nested folders also allows for easy delivery of stems, etc, which is often expected and/or agreed upon. My template design and methodology is NOT plugin centric by any means.

The problem is not really with Reaper, since using regular sends instead of folders bypasses this issue. The problem with that approach, however, is that it stops me from organizing projects using nested folders. Using folders would be quicker and have degrees of visual control and feedback that I'm now lacking. That's the problem.
Well I use folder tracks in just that way, in other words I use them for visual cues only. I never need to go more than three or four levels deep though.

I turn off all input and output to the folder tracks. To do this you have to make sure to set input and output to none as well as uncheck master/parents send. If you haven't made sure to disable all audio at the input and output and are just relying on checking or unchecking the master parents send you might see if that makes a difference. Set input to none and record disable each of your folder tracks. (Right-click on the record arm button).

There is no reason I would think to pass audio through multiple tracks up the chain when not needed. Just create a separate bus track somewhere send directly to it. None of my folder tracks have any plug-ins on them as they are not passing audio of any kind. I just create sends to separate busses, and the only place in my entire 350+ track project template that sends output to the master is the final busses.

Also maybe try this script: Script: cfillion_Disable audio source of all sends on selected tracks.lua on all your folder tracks.

Using this approach I am able to use the folder tracks for organization and collapsing trees, etc. It also means that all my busses are organized in one place. I never liked the fact that folder tracks being used as busses meant that they were spread all over the project anyway.
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Old 08-16-2020, 09:35 PM   #25
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Have you tried it with the folders but not using the parent send? It’s not nearly as convenient to make explicit sends in their place, but does it make a difference in the CPU usage?
Ah, that might work. I'll do some tests and post the results here as soon as possible.
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Old 08-16-2020, 09:37 PM   #26
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BTW.:

AFAIK, in Reaper each track uses it's own OS thread.

This means that when audio is send from one track to another, it needs to be passed between threads, and this might impact the realtime behavior of the system.

I don't know if this explains why inflationary use of folder tracks seems to be problematic, but it might be an explanation.

-Michael
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Old 08-16-2020, 09:49 PM   #27
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Well I use folder tracks in just that way, in other words I use them for visual cues only. I never need to go more than three or four levels deep though.

I turn off all input and output to the folder tracks. To do this you have to make sure to set input and output to none as well as uncheck master/parents send. If you haven't made sure to disable all audio at the input and output and are just relying on checking or unchecking the master parents send you might see if that makes a difference. Set input to none and record disable each of your folder tracks. (Right-click on the record arm button).

There is no reason I would think to pass audio through multiple tracks up the chain when not needed. Just create a separate bus track somewhere send directly to it. None of my folder tracks have any plug-ins on them as they are not passing audio of any kind. I just create sends to separate busses, and the only place in my entire 350+ track project template that sends output to the master is the final busses.

Also maybe try this script: Script: cfillion_Disable audio source of all sends on selected tracks.lua on all your folder tracks.

Using this approach I am able to use the folder tracks for organization and collapsing trees, etc. It also means that all my busses are organized in one place. I never liked the fact that folder tracks being used as busses meant that they were spread all over the project anyway.
Interesting. I'll make sure to look into this in depth when I have the time. Thanks!
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Old 08-17-2020, 01:28 AM   #28
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Originally Posted by mschnell View Post
BTW.:

AFAIK, in Reaper each track uses it's own OS thread.

This means that when audio is send from one track to another, it needs to be passed between threads, and this might impact the realtime behavior of the system.

I don't know if this explains why inflationary use of folder tracks seems to be problematic, but it might be an explanation.

-Michael
I don't believe so. I've posted examples of exactly the same routing structure, where nested folders give higher cpu consumption than using regular track sends.

The point is not really whether to use lots of nested folders or not, that is what kind of project template the user wishes to use, but why folder tracks consume more cpu / are more prone to breaking up. Using regular track sends instead of feeding audio through the master/parent send should not matter IMHO. They should behave the same, but that is not the case.
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Old 08-17-2020, 07:31 AM   #29
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The point is not really whether to use lots of nested folders or not, that is what kind of project template the user wishes to use, but why folder tracks consume more cpu / are more prone to breaking up. Using regular track sends instead of feeding audio through the master/parent send should not matter IMHO. They should behave the same, but that is not the case.
That was my observation as well. I bet if you disable as described above performance is improved. Interested to see what you find. Works for me.
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Old 08-17-2020, 07:58 AM   #30
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They should behave the same, but that is not the case.
I fully agree !
Maybe worth a bug report, especially as you say you do have an instructive sample project !

-Michael
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Old 08-17-2020, 10:19 AM   #31
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I love it when people just break the REAPER by doing routing and structures that are rarely something that you would see in actual use... and find out all kinds of edge cases where small differences accumulate into a big problem
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Old 08-17-2020, 04:16 PM   #32
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I love it when people just break the REAPER by doing routing and structures that are rarely something that you would see in actual use... and find out all kinds of edge cases where small differences accumulate into a big problem
But I thought it was an artist's job and mission in life to push the edge the envelope? ~)
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Old 08-17-2020, 06:40 PM   #33
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This is a Quick test I’ve made:

1- take a Big complete mix and put it all in one folder.
2- Put a few HUNGRY mastering plugin on the folder’s FX chain and keep adding hungry plug in until my computer can’t take it anymore.
3- move that chain to the master fader and disable the folder’s chain

My computer takes it on the master fader but can’t on the folder. Why???
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Old 08-17-2020, 10:22 PM   #34
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Weird indeed.

I always thought the master is just a kind of implicit folder for the tracks...
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Old 08-18-2020, 12:11 AM   #35
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I love it when people just break the REAPER by doing routing and structures that are rarely something that you would see in actual use... and find out all kinds of edge cases where small differences accumulate into a big problem
But you assume too much, my dear fellow. The reason I posted this is that I ran into problems in one of my real life projects, in this particular case using the Softube Console1 plugin and controller on all tracks for console emulation purposes. Working on this project became almost impossible, due to all the stuttering and weird lagging and stuff. So, one of the guys in the C1 forums, also using Reaper, told me that using track sends instead of nested folders had helped with HIS projects. So, I tried it, and it WORKED! No more stuttering. No more lagging.

Now. I understand that the Reaper user-base that use the C1 as their main control surface is probably pretty small. So, I decided to try the theory out using other plugins. And I obtained similar results.

So. These are not "edge cases". These are real life situations, where users are being limited, unnecessarily in my opinion, due to inconsistencies with master/parent and regular track sends.
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Old 08-18-2020, 02:00 AM   #36
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in this particular case using the Softube Console1 plugin and controller on all tracks
I suppose this pluigin speaks with a hardware controller without reaper knowing about.

This indeed might impose a problem with the thread handling, as (supposedly) the plugin needs to handle two threads: The audio thread reaper created for the track and a communication thread for the "background" operations. As communicating between threads always needs some kind of synchronizing, this might cause a weird problem.
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Now. I understand that the Reaper user-base that use the C1 as their main control surface is probably pretty small.
Many seem to use CSI to have the controller speak to any Reaper features and plugins. I don't know about the implications of this regarding the topic of this thread.
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So, I decided to try the theory out using other plugins. And I obtained similar results
This of course rules out any problems imposed by the C1 plugin itself.
-Michael

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Old 08-18-2020, 02:04 AM   #37
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So, as far as I can tell, the problem SEEMS to me to lie with what the Reaper performance meter calls "RT CPU" and "RT longest block". Not using the master/parent send gives orders of magnitude lower measurements on my system. To be clear, this is NOT related to having "Allow live FX processing" turned on, since on my system it is turned OFF.

I'm ONLY using Reacomp for these tests, with a 30ms pre-comp setting, no other plugins are present.

My latest test run seems to indicate that using layers of nested folders for organizing is not problematic UNLESS you use the intended master/parent sends on child tracks, which seems weird to me. Being able to use the intended master/parent sends would be much more elegant and intuitive, and it would be much better just for workflow reasons.

Using master/parent sends = 120 % RT CPU, 3441 ms RT longest block
NOT using master/parent sends = 5-10 % RT CPU, 1.43 ms RT longest block

"Normal" nested folders, master/parent sends are used





Nested folders, master/parent sends are NOT used, track sends used instead





Not using nested folders, master/parent sends are NOT used



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Old 08-18-2020, 02:12 AM   #38
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I suppose this pluigin speaks with a hardware controller without reaper knowing about.

This indeed might impose a problem with the thread handling, as (supposedly) the plugin needs to handle two threads: The audio thread reaper created for the track and a communication thread for the "background" operations. As communicating between threads always needs some kind of synchronizing, this might cause a weird problem.

Many seem to use CSI to have the controller speak to any Reaper features and plugins. I don't know about the implications of this regarding the topic of this thread.

This of course peaks against any problems imposed by the C1 plugin itself.
-Michael
I don't believe this is the case. The same trend is clear NOT using the c1. See example above.
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Old 08-18-2020, 02:57 AM   #39
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So, as far as I can tell, the problem SEEMS to me to lie with what the Reaper performance meter calls "RT CPU" and "RT longest block"....
Great finding.
Given that description, the programmers should be able to find the cause of the issue
-Michael
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Old 08-18-2020, 03:02 AM   #40
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I fully agree !
Maybe worth a bug report, especially as you say you do have an instructive sample project !

-Michael
Yup, I'll go ahead and post a bug report regarding this issue.
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