Old 11-05-2006, 12:19 PM   #1
Jason Brian Merrill
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Default one last reason why we need a metronome.

i know i know, its probably a sickening topic. really, the audio click track we have now is nice. it really is.

however, it runs out after a certain period of time.

An audio metronome would just keep going and going and going --

is there a way to make the click track just go on forever (without having to guess at how long the song is going to be? What if i just want a click track to keep going and going while i make up some beats? Do i have to drag it out all the time? Do i have to change project settings?

this is one undeniable advantage of a built in metronome.

Although, dont get me wrong, i think the click track is cool too... but another thing.

Does the click track always have to superimpose itself over the topmost track? Cant it just create a new track at the top under the master or something? Its a bit annoying having an audio track go over something thats already there.
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Old 11-05-2006, 05:42 PM   #2
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jason Brian Merrill
Does the click track always have to superimpose itself over the topmost track? Cant it just create a new track at the top under the master or something? Its a bit annoying having an audio track go over something thats already there.
that bothers me too.

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Old 11-05-2006, 06:06 PM   #3
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+1 again for the metronome. Bugs me that if in the middle of a series of already recorded tracks that start at position 1.0.00 that if I want to overdub using a vsti that I can't get a count in to get my timing right. The click track only works with a linear workflow, not very flexible for me...
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Old 11-05-2006, 06:57 PM   #4
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LOSER made a neat JS click plugin that could be used for it

hopefully hell post it up soon
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Old 11-06-2006, 01:16 AM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jason Brian Merrill
LOSER made a neat JS click plugin that could be used for it

hopefully hell post it up soon
Here it is: http://loser-dev.cabspace.com/metronome

Start it at full measures, or it won't sync correct with REAPER.

Prolly gonna make a MIDI one (need to figure out how to send MIDI), so one can put ReaSamplomtic5000 after it to play costum samples or whatever.

The MIDI: http://loser-dev.cabspace.com/midi_metronome

Need to actually optimize'em, taking a **** load of CPU

Last edited by LOSER; 11-06-2006 at 02:22 AM. Reason: posting the link. d'oh
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Old 11-06-2006, 06:19 AM   #6
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yeah low cpu usage is nessecary but hey its a start!

thanks!!!!!!
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Old 11-07-2006, 07:04 PM   #7
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I, for one would love an audio metronome. I tried using the clicking solution that everyone pointed out, but it got too messy. It would insert itself into an existing track, or i would have to stretch it over a 1000 measures, or I would have to constantly keep muting it and unmuting it to not interfere with playback, or i cant have a precount, so I got frustrated using it. I have tried to start a campaign for this one little feature, but Justin prefers to keep the non-paying users unhappy. Maybe if i buy it, he'll change his mind? Hmm...


Anyways, on the positive side of things, Justin has REALLY worked on the GUi and now reaper looks fabulous. Kudos! I adore its new looks, and it feels very much like a professional DAW. Also, the midi side of things seems to be getting cleared up. One more thing is how reaper handles VST windows. I quite like it, I admit.

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Old 11-07-2006, 07:08 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by keyman_sam
I, for one would love an audio metronome. I have tried to start a campaign for this one little feature, but Justin prefers to keep the non-paying users unhappy. Maybe if i buy it, he'll change his mind? Hmm...
not likely, and i dont know where you come up with this.

I am a non-payer (so far) due to poorness, and yet he has put in alot of stuff i have complained about or have asked for, more than i could ever expect for not actually owning a program, but soon enough i will put down the money im sure.

I feel Justin is reasonable, and that he listens to logic, not $$$.
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Old 11-07-2006, 07:09 PM   #9
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I find it hard to believe that you could be poor. You said you've tried pretty much every DAW on the planet (in the KVR thread). I got the image that you were filthy rich.
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Old 11-07-2006, 07:52 PM   #10
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Default Metronome

Hey Jason,

If you can build a sorta complex circuit, I have a VERY
nice schematic for a digtal metranome that really
goes "tick tock", (up/down beat). Just plug into
any channel and use as you's please. None of that timeout
nonsense.

I have breadboarded this baby and it works great.
Ran into a little whine issue when adding line driver,
but if you know a little electronics, no biggy.
Personally, have not worked out that issue yet.

Lemme know, I'll send schematic.

tommy
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Old 11-07-2006, 08:13 PM   #11
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Does it know when we're playing and when we're recording? I dont want the thing to sound when its playing back.

Also, does it give you a precount?
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Old 11-07-2006, 09:20 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by keyman_sam
I find it hard to believe that you could be poor. You said you've tried pretty much every DAW on the planet (in the KVR thread). I got the image that you were filthy rich.
first of all, i am VERY poor. But this is within the last year -- (I had a major shift in location and circumstances) yes, i own samplitude 8 -- an old copy of vegas and acid, and some cubase SL from my emu card upgrade. I have owned flstudio for a while. I have tried almost every host, but that doesnt mean i own them.
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Old 11-07-2006, 09:22 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tommy
Hey Jason,

If you can build a sorta complex circuit, I have a VERY
nice schematic for a digtal metranome that really
goes "tick tock", (up/down beat). Just plug into
any channel and use as you's please. None of that timeout
nonsense.

I have breadboarded this baby and it works great.
Ran into a little whine issue when adding line driver,
but if you know a little electronics, no biggy.
Personally, have not worked out that issue yet.

Lemme know, I'll send schematic.

tommy
nah, i have no idea how to do any of that.
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Old 11-08-2006, 05:32 AM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by keyman_sam
Does it know when we're playing and when we're recording? I dont want the thing to sound when its playing back.

Also, does it give you a precount?
No, all it does is, when you run the FX (start play, record, or record arm a track) it just simply starts clicking form that point on. I just made it for Jason, he is obviously jamming some ideas down or whatever and it's really a pitty when his click tack runs out, so to help him (and get him to like REAPER ) I just made a metronome that will run on forever. But what it does, it actually syncs with REAPER (not so good on gradually tempo changes, tohugh)
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Old 11-08-2006, 06:38 AM   #15
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Old 11-08-2006, 06:52 AM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by keyman_sam


---------------------------------------------------------
Sorry, I would do it if the needed functions where provided.
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Old 11-08-2006, 09:54 AM   #17
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No problems. I understand that from a programmer's point of view, its an impossible thing to do without being given the right parameters from reaper. What i feel sad about is Justin stamping his foot down as to NOT implement this one feature. Since he's added a whole lot of cool features, it wouldnt be much difficult to add another simple feature. Plus, this is not like some protools or cubase where you'd be REALLY lucky if one person's request got fulfilled. This is reaper where justin listens to everyone. I simply fail to understand whats keeping this man from implementing this feature and why he is so stubborn as to make people like me unhappy. One person might think it useless, but for another, this is a crucial feature.

Notice that I've stopped complaining after a while, and tried that clicking track thing. Didnt work out. Went back to using sonar and ext.
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Old 11-08-2006, 01:49 PM   #18
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I really don't think reaper needs a metronome. You've got a very versatile, customizable, and low CPU usage click track that you can even insert with a hot key if you want. I do feel that the current click is missing a few features ... moslty the the ability to change it's time signature: i.e. 3/4, 6/8, 9/8. That would be amazing.

I think that the benefits of having a metronome are negated by the ease with which you can use and manipulate Reaper's click track. If you're worried about it running out, extend it to 15 minutes or more (you can zoom out and extend it for 2 hours if you want - that should give plenty of time to make beats with the click) … and if you only need it after for a certain part of the song, use a volume envelope. if you don't want to hear it at all - delete it or mute it ... then if you want it again, unmute, or Ctrl+t, then insert --> click source (or press your hot key) -- and the click will default to the length of the song.

I have had zero problems implementing reaper's click track into my recordings. I like it far better than the standard metronome.

I also found no differece between pressing mute on a track and pressing a button that makes the click stop.
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Old 11-08-2006, 02:47 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RedStone
I really don't think reaper needs a metronome. You've got a very versatile, customizable, and low CPU usage click track that you can even insert with a hot key if you want. I do feel that the current click is missing a few features ... moslty the the ability to change it's time signature: i.e. 3/4, 6/8, 9/8. That would be amazing.
You can actually do that in the project setting -> project setting -> Time Signature.

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Old 11-08-2006, 05:10 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LOSER
You can actually do that in the project setting -> project setting -> Time Signature.
Ha! cooool!
It's all about knowing your way around an app -

hmm for songs done in odd timings like 6/8, it would be really cool to be able to customize mid-bar emphasis ... For example, where you want a down stroke (on guitar or bass etc) that has to be perfect many times per verse/chorus.

The thing I like best about the click track is that you can have two completely different clicks in a song and it takes next to no effort to make it happen.
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Old 11-08-2006, 05:33 PM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jason Brian Merrill
i know i know, its probably a sickening topic. really, the audio click track we have now is nice. it really is.

however, it runs out after a certain period of time.

An audio metronome would just keep going and going and going --

is there a way to make the click track just go on forever (without having to guess at how long the song is going to be? What if i just want a click track to keep going and going while i make up some beats? Do i have to drag it out all the time? Do i have to change project settings?

this is one undeniable advantage of a built in metronome.

Although, dont get me wrong, i think the click track is cool too... but another thing.

Does the click track always have to superimpose itself over the topmost track? Cant it just create a new track at the top under the master or something? Its a bit annoying having an audio track go over something thats already there.

Jason...you're on the right track. An audio metronome click track is GARBAGE!!! There are so many different ways people like to work. The click track is not versatile enough. Questions for those of you who like the audio click track.

1. How do you get a count-in metronome before the first measure of a song?

2. If you want to experiment around with different tempos and time signatures how do you have the metronome track correspond without jumping thru a bunch of hoops? It's simple using midi data, which corresponds with a Midi Beat Clock.

3. How do you implement a "Wait Midi Note" record function with a Metronome track? In other words...the metronome is suppose to count without the cursor scrolling and then it goes into record once you hit a midi note.

Reaper already has Midi functionality. A metronome shouldn't be hard at all to implement. What is a metronome? It's nothing but Midi Notes that are placed on the beats of the time signature, that corresponds to the tempo at any given place on the timeline. Beat ONE usually has a higher velocity value to give the eccense of an Accent note so you know exactly where beat ONE is in the metronome count-offs. If Justin can't do this simple of a function then there really is not much hope on Reaper's Midi sequencing department. Now that Reaper is getting midi sequencing updates, I would certainly hope a midi based metronome wouldn't be hard to implement.
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Old 11-08-2006, 06:05 PM   #22
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My point exactly. Click track is a workaround that doesn't solve all issues for how different people make music. Its a compositional aid among other things, that is vital to certain ways people like to work.
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Old 11-08-2006, 07:18 PM   #23
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i wouldnt call the click track "crap" -- for some people and uses it could actually be better than a conventional metronome. But i think i like the idea of the regular metronome better usually. And although LOSER's plugin is cool, it seems to be a bit shaky ATM.

but thanks !!!
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Old 11-08-2006, 08:56 PM   #24
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I made a simple VST Metronome.
It has an audible sidestick sound and visible leds.
You can load any sample you wish.
It syncs to the host.
Remember there's allways latency problems when using a vst.

http://en.swoopshare.com/file/4149c3...rnome.dll.html
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Old 11-08-2006, 10:02 PM   #25
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+1 vote for a real click track feature. As a drummer, this would be more usefull to me than the entire midi section of reaper. Heck, I'd never use midi at all if the click feature was powerfull enough.
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Old 11-09-2006, 02:26 AM   #26
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Id love a metronome as well...

I record jam sessions all the time and its so much easier having a metronome that you can route to a seperate output and that only sounds during recording (optional for play). You dont have to setup, insert, mute or delete anything making workflow a lot smoother.

Anyone coming to REAPER from another app with a metronome would immediately find the 'click source' a step backward and we should be able to tell people that REAPER is a huge step forward, which it is mostly.
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Old 11-09-2006, 08:28 AM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TerryW
I made a simple VST Metronome.
It has an audible sidestick sound and visible leds.
You can load any sample you wish.
It syncs to the host.
Remember there's allways latency problems when using a vst.

http://en.swoopshare.com/file/4149c3...rnome.dll.html

And with this solution can you have a metronome count-in function? I wouldn't think so. Can you have a wait midi note record function? I wouldn't think so.
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Old 11-09-2006, 08:33 AM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jason Brian Merrill
i wouldnt call the click track "crap" --
Ok....I won't call it "crap". I called it "Garbage"....you must have subliminally been calling it "crap" to even quote me saying that. It was an intermittent solution that served it's purpose. It's time for it to go bye bye. You can do everything you can with a real metronome function that you can do with a click track solution, but you can't do vice-versa.
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Old 11-09-2006, 08:46 AM   #29
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Quote:
1. How do you get a count-in metronome before the first measure of a song?
My solution was to wait a few bars before I start playing at the beginning of the project. I actually found it to be a useful practice ... lets you play around later with adding a pre-intro and it also lets musicans get ready mentally. This is Especially especially useful for combining midi and audio recording.

Quote:
2. If you want to experiment around with different tempos and time signatures ...
Just change the bpm of the song and the click track will adapt accordingly - the click track IS midi based. Time signature is in the project settings, so yeah, that's a bit of a hoop (I'd like to see it in the transport bar).

Quote:
3. How do you implement a "Wait Midi Note" record function with a Metronome track?
So What would you use that for? Midi notes don't get recorded if you don't play anything, it produces no hiss or noise and the extra couple of kb it takes to have some blank space in a midi file seems negligable to me. What am I missing?

I don't mean to butt heads ... I just wonder why things can't be kept as straightforeward as possible. as in if you know how to do it with audio (punch-in, pre-roll etc etc), you can automatically know how to do it with midi - that would be like a dream come true!
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Old 11-09-2006, 09:23 AM   #30
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By the way, you can also add Time Sig markers, and the click track will follow them automatically.

Personally, I love the click track, It's great to have a visual representation of the metronome.
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Old 11-09-2006, 10:07 AM   #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rednroll
Ok....I won't call it "crap". I called it "Garbage"....you must have subliminally been calling it "crap" to even quote me saying that. It was an intermittent solution that served it's purpose. It's time for it to go bye bye. You can do everything you can with a real metronome function that you can do with a click track solution, but you can't do vice-versa.
semantics bleh
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Old 11-09-2006, 10:07 AM   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fluffy

Personally, I love the click track, It's great to have a visual representation of the metronome.
I have never found a visual representation useful, on the contrary, it just takes up space for me.
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Old 11-09-2006, 10:18 AM   #33
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So What would you use that for? Midi notes don't get recorded if you don't play anything, it produces no hiss or noise and the extra couple of kb it takes to have some blank space in a midi file seems negligable to me. What am I missing?
Yes, you're missing the function of what a "Wait Midi Note" function does. Here's what happens and why its important to have a non-click track metronome.
1. Place your cursor where you would like to start recording midi at.
2. Enable that track for record.
3. Hit the main transport record button.
4. The cursor does not scroll, yet you hear the Metronome counting off to the tempo of the song you are recording too. (Thus the term "Wait Note"). You're waiting for a note before recording starts and the cursor starts to scroll.

You ever hear a drummer click their sticks together before the entire band starts playing? It's a similar scenario.

5. When you press the first Note on your midi controler then the cursor starts scrolling and recording midi data.

Your solution for the count-in will work...BUT, it's a lot of extra unneeded work. Aren't we all about making things simple and more flexible? I would hope so. I work with clients, and with some clients, a 1 bar count-in is enough. Others 2 bars, and then others 4 bars. With your method, it takes a lot of work to change the number of bars duration. I usually think in music in 4 bar and 8 bar phrases like most every other musician. If I add 2 bars of metronome to the start of a song, now my entire timeline does not correspond with the way I'm confortable with thinking in musical terms. I have to keep subtracting in my head, and the last thing I want to do when creating music is having to do math.

You Can have a visual representation with the method I'm describing. You record enable a track and either record the midi notes, or the audio data from the triggered sound device. Like I said, Everything that the click track offers I can accomplish with a metronome function, but I can't do it the other way around.

Last edited by Rednroll; 11-09-2006 at 10:23 AM.
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Old 11-09-2006, 11:04 AM   #34
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"4. The cursor does not scroll, yet you hear the Metronome counting off to the tempo of the song you are recording too. (Thus the term "Wait Note"). You're waiting for a note before recording starts and the cursor starts to scroll."

coool!
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Old 11-09-2006, 11:25 AM   #35
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What if doing an automated click track causes a performance hit?

(Jason mode: ON)

I mean, for myself, I like the way it works now. I don't want bloat.

(Jason mode: OFF)

What may seem like a simple innocuous thing could be a tricky thing to implement from a programming standpoint. Because you've got to keep a timer going in sync with playing back samples, which I can imagine works differently. Playing back samples probably involves getting the timing of fixed chunks of data "in line", versus trying to get a timer to sync with that and then play back a sample or create a tone that is non-linear with the sample playback process.

I'm not sure how he gets timing to work for data, except maybe it's different in that the timing is tied to the sample playback process. Making another free-flowing process that's independent of that is probably a pretty kludge-like thing.

I don't have a need to have it create a tempo track in real time, building one by inserting the click sample works fine for me. It'd be cool to have a click track to fool around with when I'm initially
working on a piece of music - but a lot of times I'm starting with a drum track to begin with, which means playing a drum machine (no click needed), a loop (same deal), or a live drummer.. in which case the click track has to be worked out beforehand and set in stone, so a mutable one isn't needed.

BUT - I can see if you're working from scratch and want a tempo reference you can play around with it would be nice.... but not if it means at the expense of making Reaper start to choke like other DAWS that have metronomes.
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Old 11-09-2006, 11:28 AM   #36
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... the irony of my last post is that just yesterday I was telling a student about Reaper, and the first thing out of his mouth was,

"does it have a metronome in it?"

<g>

(But know that he said it because we'd just been working on practicing something with a metronome...)
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Old 11-09-2006, 01:03 PM   #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rednroll
Your solution for the count-in will work...BUT, it's a lot of extra unneeded work. Aren't we all about making things simple and more flexible? I would hope so. I work with clients, and with some clients, a 1 bar count-in is enough. Others 2 bars, and then others 4 bars. With your method, it takes a lot of work to change the number of bars duration.
Yeah having to add a single 4 or whatever bar click into the start of a project is unneeded work - but, I would hope that you were using that sample click for the whole song, ya?

The most efficient way to use the click track is to insert a single click track that matches what you need for the song before you even press record for the first time (just as you would do with a metronome). You need to extend it for some length of time (more time than you need for the entire song to allow for incidental jamming and such). I can't believe that this would make someone say "woes me - this is horrible"

For recording, you simply arm your track(s), hit record and count off 2, or whatever bars you need before starting to play - Recall that the start of each bar is signaled with a louder click. so in 4/4 time, you have LOUD quiet quiet quiet, LOUD quiet quiet quiet LOUD .... etc - and that's all you have to understand. You never have to revisit it unless there is a key sig change. But the process is very similar, and IMO easier than working with an metronome (I'm thinking of Acid's metronome here).

And there is no extra math needed ... the visual click takes the head-math right out of the equation since you can see where each new bar starts by looking at the click. It literally saves a world of trouble for making edits and fixing sloppy playing - it makes the process ultra quick!

For the wait note: I think there needs to be a shift of thinking - treating midi recording as a completely different process than recording audio has added extra/unneeded work that can be eliminated by merging the two processes together cognitively. There is, in effect, no end difference between using the punch-in/click track or wait for midi note aside from a few kb of blank space in a midi file. Both take the same amount of time to implement - it's just a different process.

I'm glad that midi recording is treated more like audio recording ... new technology has allowed this to happen. Why should the two be treated differently? I wasted more time learning the ins and outs of midi in Acid than I did learning how to duck a kick and route midi in Reaper.

I guess for someone coming from another program, it might be confusing or seem like a lot of work until you do some un-learning.

In context, maybe all of that is my vantage point from learning midi using Reaper and Acid 6 together. I come from a strictly audio background - and I am happy with the way midi is being introduced to reaper. I found it very easy to learn in the context of the program and in the context of thinking "what is the quickest way I can do something without having to do much, if any research". it is a very intuative implementation.
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Last edited by RedStone; 11-09-2006 at 01:09 PM.
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Old 11-09-2006, 01:54 PM   #38
kilroy
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I'm with Redstone all the way (but I'm also from an audio only background until lately). Let's keep Reaper simple... yet functional. If Justin has not settled for a metronome from the start I'm sure there is a good reason the whole system was built the way it is.
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Old 11-09-2006, 04:36 PM   #39
Jason Brian Merrill
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chip mcdonald View Post
What if doing an automated click track causes a performance hit?

(Jason mode: ON)

I mean, for myself, I like the way it works now. I don't want bloat.

(Jason mode: OFF)

first off, a minor performance hit means nothing in the initial stages of production, as you usually dont have much going on in the beginning, and when you have already added tons of stuff, likely the backdrop to everything is set and you dont need a metronome. The metronome is needed to provide a time basis for parts... but perhaps that workflow isnt obvious to "pros". j/k

as far as bloat, you wouldnt even notice it. When its not on, it wouldnt hit anything, you wouldnt have to see it.

So, this isnt even close to bloat, nice try, play again
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Old 11-09-2006, 05:23 PM   #40
Rednroll
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After reading the posts, I'm starting to understand the lack of interest. Let me assure you it's from a lack of your background knowledge.

Performance hit?
How much of a performance hit would 4 midi notes looped give you? That's all a metronome is in a 4/4 time signature. Midi data is nothing compared to audio data as far as CPU requirements. So it would actually be a performance increase. YES, A performance INCREASE for this function.

Every midi sequencer has the ability to put out "Midi Beat Clock". Midi Beat Clock contains all the information that a metronome would need. Midi beat clock has current song position, and Current Tempo information. Rewire also has current tempo and song position information. Reaper has tempo information. All this stuff is already built into Reaper for sources of Tempo and song position to trigger a simple metronome function.

Put it this way, I have run Opcodes Studio Vision on a Pentium 200 Mhz computer, and it has all the things I've listed and fits on 2 floppy discs. This is not an intensive CPU task.

Last edited by Rednroll; 11-09-2006 at 05:37 PM.
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