Go Back   Cockos Incorporated Forums > REAPER Forums > Recording Technologies and Techniques

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 03-14-2010, 02:56 PM   #1
sweetbutt
Human being with feelings
 
sweetbutt's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: earth
Posts: 273
Default a noticeable discovery about acoustic guitars and nail hardness

I'm mixin an EP of a friend of mine and there was this song which hosted a very nice acoustic guitar theme. music is overally a nice blend of 70% of electronics + a 30% of pure acoustic instruments

but this theme wasn't sounding like a full - warm acoustic guitar like he wanted to
it was stuck pretty much in the mid-high mid range (the bulk of the business was around 1500/2000..very few natural body...very few natural sizzlings)
I thought he made some creepy cut/boost during recording so I suggested to re-record it here in my studio...it definitely needed a grand pure sound..tweaking the EQ for a drastic recovery it's my fav sport

so he came in - I placed the mics - he sat and started recording

that damn mid range was still there.

bare in mind

- he was playing a martin which tends a bit too much towards the mids

- the theme itself has no bass line since there's a synth bass. so it tends to "start" from the low mids upwards..
but there was a total LACK sizzling higs you expect from acoustic guitar strings..


so I gave him my guitar. it surely sounds warmer I said.

hit rec..

again that mid range. creepy.

so I went into the booth and asked him to play the beginning looped while I radically moved the mics around the body looking for the body-sizzling thing

no trace. it was midrange ev-where. I mean sound was changing- but the mids were the kings.
I was impressed. very first time.
we tried two different guitars (one's another martin that sounds extremely good)..
nope..mids still ruling the class
couldn't get why.

then I thought about a friend of mine who owns pretty soft nails and he told me that yep his nails were much harder than his ones
then I had a glimpse
so I asked him: "let me play that first part myself"

the mics were in same exact position of course and guitar was the same
I recorded that and bum!

it was sounding like a "regular" woody warm sizzling guitar

so I asked him to re-record and payed extra care to his position from the mics to match with mine

and bum!

mid range again.

so I came to the conclusion that

nails hardness can let a guitar sound TERRIBLY different.

I thought there were differences among nails of course. but I never expected to be this evident.

how evident?

come here and listen

http://www.divshare.com/download/10762510-bcf
there's a little player to listen the sample on the spot

guitar: the same
position: the same ( I paid extra care to match the exact position but there might be some veeeery minor differences .. but I don't think they can justify such a timbre change...I've been recording since 10 years but never exeperienced such thing so far)

order of appeareance

1st that's me
2nd that's him

I also think that what makes this so evident here it's a combination of both nails and the range where the theme actually takes place..
so to speak his nails kind of make this theme more "resonant"...
but take this like you would take somebody else's "feel" or perception

I wanted share and discuss this interesting discovery with you boyz

Last edited by sweetbutt; 03-14-2010 at 04:41 PM.
sweetbutt is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-14-2010, 04:01 PM   #2
afantozzi
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Posts: 309
Default

Absolutely, nails make a great difference.
I am a classical guitar player and I can guarantee that classical guitar players pay a lot of attention to their nails.
It is not only a matter of "hardness". The sound changes depending on many nails-related factors: lenght, type of attack on the string, shape.
There are different "schools of thought" on how nails should be and how the right hand should approach the strings.
Many guitarist (mostly non classical) pay very little attention to this aspect and even professional guitar players may have a terrible sound on an acoustic guitar (or even electric guitar) when playing with their fingers (instead of a pick). And there is no mic or Eq that can correct a "bag finger sound".
I remember the intro of "Nothing Else Matters" from Metallica. Kirk Hammet is really a good guitar player but his finger-sound is really poor and that intro is, technically speaking, horrible. The problem is that most non-classical guitar players are not used to pay enough attention on how to use the right hand or shape their nails. They pay more attention on the sound of apmlifiers, effects, etc but not on their nails... Nails are definitely a sort of "effect", you can change your sound simply changing shape, lenght or type of attack

Last edited by afantozzi; 03-14-2010 at 04:07 PM.
afantozzi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-14-2010, 04:30 PM   #3
Alistair S
Human being with feelings
 
Alistair S's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: UK
Posts: 1,720
Default

Definitely.

I play with fingernails and they are the biggest influence on the sound, imho. It probably varies from person to person and on the hardness of the nail, the angle of attack, etc.

For me, if I let my nails become too long, the sound suffers (same for too short). I have hard nails. If I soften them with warm water, the sound changes.

I like them fairly rounded, but I know other people who prefer flatter, or angled or even pointed nails (like a pick).

It's a constant experiment for me, though.

I'd be grateful to hear from others as to what works best for them and what they do about nail care.
Alistair S is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-14-2010, 04:38 PM   #4
sweetbutt
Human being with feelings
 
sweetbutt's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: earth
Posts: 273
Default

actually he takes a LOT of care about his nails since he has a long time classical guitar-lute experience...

we've been friends for ages and I know well he has a wonderful sound on nylon strings

another point worth mentioning

for me the focus of this discussion (considering we all know nails affect the sound a lot and this is for granted) is that I've never expected such a mid-range timber characteristic thus making his playing basically unusable in the song

btw...I was using a Rode NT5 and a NT2-A .. with this setup I recorded him couple of days ago while I was testing the audient preamp...so he was improvising spacing in the full range...dynamics etc...the whole guitar

he sounded good! the recording was natural..warm..woody..still towards the mids..but it was nice..

it's just this particular theme that kind of creates this mid range clash..

also considering we've been trying with 3 more different guitars and the result was always basically the same: mid range mid range mid range

Last edited by sweetbutt; 03-14-2010 at 04:53 PM.
sweetbutt is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-23-2010, 11:10 AM   #5
noon
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Posts: 18
Default

I find if my nails are too long, the sound is brittle. I heard once that players in the olden days used a combination of nails and fingertips, and I find that to give most pleasing sound generally. It has more warmth and depth.
noon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-23-2010, 07:57 PM   #6
yep
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 2,019
Default

Everything matters!!!

90% of all audio discussion on the web could be eliminated if people just internalized that EVERYTHING MATTERS!

And that's not a bad or difficult or complicating thing. It's a liberating and simplifying thing. It just means that the sound you hear is what you're recording, and mess around until it sound the way you want it to.

I do not mean to detract from the OP's revelation, I mean to expand upon it. Recording advice tends to always devolve into a hundred one-trick ponies. People ask how to get a good acoustic guitar sound or whatever and the responses are like:

- You need a Martin Guitar
- You need a tube preamp
- Don't allow any synthetic materials into the recording room
- You need to use Samplitude
- You need to sit facing the corner
- You need to use a POD set to "British Funk"
- I only record guitars with ribbon mics
- I use an SM57 and it sounds pretty good
- You need to use new unobtanium strings
- Coated strings last longer
- I always put BBE and flanger on acoustic guitar
- You need high ceilings and bass traps
- You need illegal tortoiseshell picks
- Copy protection is evil

EVERYTHING MATTERS. To the autistic, internet-era, everything in three-easy-steps mindset, this can be a bit terrifying, but it needn't be.

It just means get a good sound that you're happy with, and then record it in a way that sounds good. The horrorshow happens when people forget the first part. There is no space between playing good music and making good sounds. A technically-accomplished mechanical sight-reading exercise that sounds bad is not good music. OTOH, a sloppy, amateurish, or somehow incorrect performance that DOES sound good IS good music. Same with recordings.

Sometimes it's easy and sometimes it's hard. But it's always easier if you take nothing for granted and just get good sound every step of the way.
yep is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-24-2010, 01:58 AM   #7
sweetbutt
Human being with feelings
 
sweetbutt's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: earth
Posts: 273
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by yep View Post
Sometimes it's easy and sometimes it's hard. But it's always easier if you take nothing for granted and just get good sound every step of the way.
this is the lesson I learned in this occasion.
never get anything for granted.
I was at the point where

- I had good music to record
- I had a good player with a nice, solid sound/playing
- I had nice, well rounded gear to record him

with these ingredients you might expect a smooth as glass successful recording

but no


anyway anyway...the thing developped

he cut his nails yesterday and popped in for re-recording.

I thought "ok it's done"...

nope againg still mid range.

we got much better result without nails..when soloed, the guitar sounds much more natural. still mid-rangey compared to my sound (without nails) but now

it just doesn't fit in the mix the way it should. (as I said severe EQ correction it's not in my weekly plans)

today we'll try some other mic placement.
sweetbutt is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-24-2010, 04:15 AM   #8
norbury brook
Human being with feelings
 
norbury brook's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: London UK
Posts: 3,378
Default

But as the producer here are you not an danger of wanting to impart what 'you' think the guitar should sound like,rather than what your friend 'actually sounds like'?

If, as you say your firend is an acomplished player with a good guitar then his sound,whether you like it or not,is his sound.It would be like saying to Julian Bream or John Williams 'yeh that's great Julian would you mind redoing that with a pick?'

I had a similar experience a few years ago recording a great singer songwriter.He played with his fingers,no nails and I was always frustrated in trying to get a really good acoustic(to me) sound, I used Alison Krauss' New favorite album as my benchmark in great acoustic guiatr sounds,DAN TYMINSKI is a traditional flat picker though on acoustic guitar so it was never going to sound like that.I eventually realised that the guy's sound was his sound and to just record it the best way i could rather than trying to make him sound like someone else.

If you're doing a session where you want a paricular sound then book a particular player,that's what session player are for, if you're producing an 'Artist' then record them as they sound.


MC
norbury brook is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-24-2010, 05:43 AM   #9
sweetbutt
Human being with feelings
 
sweetbutt's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: earth
Posts: 273
Default

you points are definitely right but this situation is different

basically he composed recorded mixed his songs and asked me to "master" them .. give'em a last look and he asked me to apply some flavours if I wanted to since we've been friends for ages and knows my sound aesthetics and he likes them

I asked him to give me separate tracks just in case there were some kind of issues..masking..phase..etc..

but when I opened the sessions the songs were sort of "trapped" ... his "message" wasn't fully blossoming..

I re-mixed them and let the songs "sonically" blossom as they were supposed to and he agreed now they're expressing their full potential

so, to recap.. this was his own music, he was the player.
I was serving him and his music.
in this particular song I felt the guitar wasn't fitting with the rest of the sounds, but of course we discussed about this together, listened.
he also agreed.

the key of this particular song is in the guitar part itself I think.
it has many clusters and develops right in that range where his fingers sound the most.
this combination could be fine anywhere else but not really in this song which is full of transparent electronic sounds.
that woody midrange wasn't sonically flowing together with the rest

anyway, he just did that part again.
still midrangy but much more workable without whipping the EQ

Last edited by sweetbutt; 03-24-2010 at 05:49 AM.
sweetbutt is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-24-2010, 09:27 AM   #10
noon
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Posts: 18
Default

This made me think of a quote:

'I can paint you the skin of Venus with mud, provided you let me surround it as I will.'

- Eugene Delacroix
noon is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 02:49 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions Inc.