Old 11-26-2018, 02:31 PM   #1
dimbow
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Default To limit your master fader or not?

Apologies for starting a new thread, but I hope it seems worthwhile. I just posted a question asking for a transparent limiter, and have a couple of great suggestions to try, which I will!.

I have this song of mine that is deliberately slightly lofi in style, and I am very happy with the final mix (as in it gets across the feel I intended). BUT it clips like anything, like at times 5-7db above peak on the master, just with certain short drum hits.
I have inserted my limiter, with no compression, just a ceiling of -0.08 type thing to catch them and prevent peaks. (oxford limiter, very good) and I feel like it slightly slightly colours the overall sound throughout the tune.
Listening back to my original "clipped" unlimited render, I prefer it, and so my question is, what is the consequence of allowing it to just render with some clips in it? Normally if I was working for a client I wouldn't dream of it, but in this case I'm tempted.
I am monitoring in a decent space on Focal CMS/Yammie Hs50 with sub,headphones - sen h650/ dt250's and I can't hear any issues with it clipping.
Happy to learn, so I'm posting! I'm guessing that it squares the waveform at the points where it clips, and therefore everything else happening within that short moment is affected, but is it still a NONO if it is only for a half second or so here and there?
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Old 11-26-2018, 03:18 PM   #2
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Of course, you could just reduce the overall master volume...

Quote:
Listening back to my original "clipped" unlimited render, I prefer it, and so my question is, what is the consequence of allowing it to just render with some clips in it? Normally if I was working for a client I wouldn't dream of it, but in this case I'm tempted.
It's an artistic choice and there are lots of commercial CDs that are compressed, limited, and clipped (clippressed").

It's usually done to "win" the loudness war but of course it can be done just because you like the sound.

Quote:
I have inserted my limiter, with no compression, just a ceiling of -0.08 type thing to catch them and prevent peaks. (oxford limiter, very good)
I don't know anything about that limiter but limiting (and clipping) is a kind of dynamic compression... It reduces the dynamic range (or "dynamic expression") by lowering the peaks without lowering anything else.

Quote:
Normally if I was working for a client I wouldn't dream of it, but in this case I'm tempted.
I'd say NEVER clip your ADC while recording because the distortion can't be removed and it's hard to control. But, at the mastering stage you have full control and if you over-do it, you can start-over.

And... I pretty-much agree... Clipping (or other distortion) is a BAD THING... unless you are a guitar player.

Last edited by DVDdoug; 11-26-2018 at 03:24 PM.
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Old 11-26-2018, 03:30 PM   #3
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IMO you should never be clipping the master fader. I would bring the master fader down until there is no clipping at all. Then you can choose to process the audio with compression and limiting if you want.
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Old 11-26-2018, 03:34 PM   #4
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One danger of clipping your Master is that if (when) your lovely wav file is turned into an mp3, aac or other compressed format, depending on what codec is used to do that, the clipped audio may suffer unpleasant artefacts.
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Old 11-26-2018, 03:48 PM   #5
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I'm with DVDdoug on the artistic choice - as much as it bothers us old timers, digital clipping (the kind at the master most of us are scared of) is 'a thing' now to some extent.
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Old 11-26-2018, 03:50 PM   #6
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Why don't you just clip/limit your kick/snare on the original tracks?
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Old 11-26-2018, 03:58 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jack Winter View Post
Why don't you just clip/limit your kick/snare on the original tracks?
Or simply add an item volume envelope and turn those places down.
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Old 11-26-2018, 04:01 PM   #8
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I'll frequently add multiple instances of compression or limiting such that each instance the audio passes through only slightly reduce the dynamic range, shaving off only the loudest of peaks. By the second or third iteration, I'm no longer getting any overs, but still retain the original sound. That is of course unless the sound you are after is the sound of clipping.
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Old 11-26-2018, 04:26 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dimbow View Post
Apologies for starting a new thread, but I hope it seems worthwhile. I just posted a question asking for a transparent limiter, and have a couple of great suggestions to try, which I will!.

I have this song of mine that is deliberately slightly lofi in style, and I am very happy with the final mix (as in it gets across the feel I intended). BUT it clips like anything, like at times 5-7db above peak on the master, just with certain short drum hits.
I have inserted my limiter, with no compression, just a ceiling of -0.08 type thing to catch them and prevent peaks. (oxford limiter, very good) and I feel like it slightly slightly colours the overall sound throughout the tune.
Listening back to my original "clipped" unlimited render, I prefer it, and so my question is, what is the consequence of allowing it to just render with some clips in it? Normally if I was working for a client I wouldn't dream of it, but in this case I'm tempted.
I am monitoring in a decent space on Focal CMS/Yammie Hs50 with sub,headphones - sen h650/ dt250's and I can't hear any issues with it clipping.
Happy to learn, so I'm posting! I'm guessing that it squares the waveform at the points where it clips, and therefore everything else happening within that short moment is affected, but is it still a NONO if it is only for a half second or so here and there?
Even if you do prefer the clipped version it's much better to do this in a controlled way having learned to gain stage in a sensible manner.

There's no good reason to clip the master. Try to learn how to gain stage so you have plenty of headroom to safely house your peaks. If you want to clip the signal for effect then stick a clipper on the master and do it in a controlled way.
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Old 11-28-2018, 01:45 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dimbow View Post
Apologies for starting a new thread, but I hope it seems worthwhile. I just posted a question asking for a transparent limiter, and have a couple of great suggestions to try, which I will!.

I have this song of mine that is deliberately slightly lofi in style, and I am very happy with the final mix (as in it gets across the feel I intended). BUT it clips like anything, like at times 5-7db above peak on the master, just with certain short drum hits.
I have inserted my limiter, with no compression, just a ceiling of -0.08 type thing to catch them and prevent peaks. (oxford limiter, very good) and I feel like it slightly slightly colours the overall sound throughout the tune.
Listening back to my original "clipped" unlimited render, I prefer it, and so my question is, what is the consequence of allowing it to just render with some clips in it? Normally if I was working for a client I wouldn't dream of it, but in this case I'm tempted.
I am monitoring in a decent space on Focal CMS/Yammie Hs50 with sub,headphones - sen h650/ dt250's and I can't hear any issues with it clipping.
Happy to learn, so I'm posting! I'm guessing that it squares the waveform at the points where it clips, and therefore everything else happening within that short moment is affected, but is it still a NONO if it is only for a half second or so here and there?

Ok, your putting a bandaid on your work. If you are clipping with some drum hits, figure out why, and go directly to the problem.

As mentioned by folks in another thread. Gain Staging, Gain Staging, Gain Staging.

I am a firm believer that a Limiter on the Master Buss is only for Mastering, not Mixing.
My religion is -18rms.

My mix is -18rms. Mastering guys LOVE ME! No compression on the master buss and 18db of headroom? The LOVE ME!

If you are mastering it yourself. You will hate yourself and not even know why. Gainstage your tracks. Gain Stage your Mix. And in the Mastering, then a limiter can come out to play.

If you do all that right, your limiter will be Super Transparent like you want. Because it won't be doing anything! In the Mastering your Limiter will not be working hard at all.
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Old 11-28-2018, 05:22 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jimmy James View Post
Ok, your putting a bandaid on your work. If you are clipping with some drum hits, figure out why, and go directly to the problem.

As mentioned by folks in another thread. Gain Staging, Gain Staging, Gain Staging.

I am a firm believer that a Limiter on the Master Buss is only for Mastering, not Mixing.
My religion is -18rms.

My mix is -18rms. Mastering guys LOVE ME! No compression on the master buss and 18db of headroom? The LOVE ME!

If you are mastering it yourself. You will hate yourself and not even know why. Gainstage your tracks. Gain Stage your Mix. And in the Mastering, then a limiter can come out to play.

If you do all that right, your limiter will be Super Transparent like you want. Because it won't be doing anything! In the Mastering your Limiter will not be working hard at all.
I have to agree with all of this...for commercial work and general practice. But, if this is your project and you like the way it sounds, then as others have said, go for it as you see fit.

I always tell clients, there is a very fine line between a mistake and artistry/style.
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