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Old 02-23-2019, 02:22 PM   #1
linusk
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Default Mixing "choir" of distorted electric guitars

I have a somewhat unusual mixing scenario, and would very much appreciate any tips. I like to take arrangements for choir and record all of the harmonies with heavily distorted electric guitar. I record each harmony once for each speaker, and thus end up with a total of 8-10 electric guitars playing at the same time. Overall, this creates kind of a neat effect. However, due to what I guess is a buildup of certain frequencies from the many layers, it's also kind of straining on the ears to listen to.

Here is my latest recording: (from last Christmas :-) )

https://soundcloud.com/user-81366913/adeste-fideles

Another example, with a different amp:

https://soundcloud.com/user-81366913/sommarpsalm

Another one, which I find particularly exhausting to listen to:

https://soundcloud.com/user-81366913...rtid-nu-kommer

It should be pointed out that I don't have much experience with mixing and music production. I have attempted to EQ away certain frequencies on the master bus, but it always ends up sounding a bit too "muffled" (I haven't done this in the mixes above). The guitars are recorded as clean signals, so I have the possibility to re-amp them if necessary.

Hopefully someone more experienced than me will find this an interesting case and can provide some suggestions on how to improve the "listenability" of the above recordings.

Thanks in advance!
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Old 02-23-2019, 08:08 PM   #2
vdubreeze
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Neat I listened to the last one, that you said bothered you the most. I'm not getting a sense of anything annoying with frequency buildup where the build up isn't also contributing to its character or how it's melding together.

I've found with multiple single line distorted guitars eq'ing the master bus isn't a good way to fix an issue. Better to do it at the track level, IMO. That way you can avoid it having too much negative impact, like muffling it, by only putting it on the tracks where it helps, and you can vary how much is being carved out on certain tracks without affecting others. You can even automate it so that it only does it in a spot that you feel needs it. On the bus sometimes some compression and hard limiting instead of eq works better, because it kicks in when the sound builds up too much resonance and gets peaky, so it doesn't limit it unless it over builds on a note for a moment. On the other hand, hitting a compressor on each track like crazy can sound nice and blended when there are 10 together. Then you can balance them and even put another compressor or limiter on the bus to tame it a hair after they've combined.

My feeling is that most of what can really change the way multiple guitars interact with each other happens when recording. Whether you go for creaminess on the neck pu or bite on the bridge pu. or mix both. Or where on the neck you're playing. So many options

Anyway, one person's build up is another's massive blending. Fun stuff you're doing!
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Old 02-24-2019, 03:39 AM   #3
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A quick "Get the simple stuff out of the way first..." question:

Let's say there is a recording with ten guitar tracks. How many of those ten are you using a high pass filter on?

Past that, is it a single guitar/amp(or amp sim) pairing that is in play?
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Old 02-24-2019, 01:12 PM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vdubreeze View Post
Neat I listened to the last one, that you said bothered you the most. I'm not getting a sense of anything annoying with frequency buildup where the build up isn't also contributing to its character or how it's melding together.

I've found with multiple single line distorted guitars eq'ing the master bus isn't a good way to fix an issue. Better to do it at the track level, IMO. That way you can avoid it having too much negative impact, like muffling it, by only putting it on the tracks where it helps, and you can vary how much is being carved out on certain tracks without affecting others. You can even automate it so that it only does it in a spot that you feel needs it. On the bus sometimes some compression and hard limiting instead of eq works better, because it kicks in when the sound builds up too much resonance and gets peaky, so it doesn't limit it unless it over builds on a note for a moment. On the other hand, hitting a compressor on each track like crazy can sound nice and blended when there are 10 together. Then you can balance them and even put another compressor or limiter on the bus to tame it a hair after they've combined.

My feeling is that most of what can really change the way multiple guitars interact with each other happens when recording. Whether you go for creaminess on the neck pu or bite on the bridge pu. or mix both. Or where on the neck you're playing. So many options

Anyway, one person's build up is another's massive blending. Fun stuff you're doing!
Thank you for the reply :-)

It makes sense to apply the EQ more selectively. I will play around a bit with EQing the individual tracks instead. That way maybe I can keep the top harmony (the melody) crisp sounding while cutting away some of the interference from the harmonies beneath it.

I will also try to apply some compression, although to me it sounds like the bothersome frequencies are sounding constantly, i.e., it's not something that comes and goes. But I will try it.

Something I've noticed in the second track (Sommarpsalm) is that it almost sounds like someone in the background is playing along with the melody on a really high-pitched "flute" or something :-) It sound kind of cool, but bothersome at the same time. It also tells me that it's not necessarily a specific frequency that is the problem, but rather a quite broad range of (high) frequencies (the "flute" is playing an actual melody, not only a single note).
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Old 02-24-2019, 01:13 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by numberthirty View Post
A quick "Get the simple stuff out of the way first..." question:

Let's say there is a recording with ten guitar tracks. How many of those ten are you using a high pass filter on?
Thanks for the reply. Actually, at the moment there is no EQing at all (and no other processing except for the amp simulation). Should I add a high-pass filter?

Quote:
Originally Posted by numberthirty View Post
Past that, is it a single guitar/amp(or amp sim) pairing that is in play?
Exactly, it's a single guitar, and I found an amp sim (in Pod Farm) that sounded okay, and then simply copied the FX to each of the tracks.
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Old 02-24-2019, 01:45 PM   #6
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Would you mind if we had a look at all the files for one of these? I've never worked with that many high gain guitars before.

I can say there are obviously going to be phase issues and generated harmonics from all the clashing frequencies. The high flute sound can be created from all the harmonics of each part stacking on top of one another.

If you do this process again, try a few things:

Normal
Normal but one string down

Strings (that you need) tuned up 2 semitones, play down two frets
Same but one string down

Tuned down two semitones, play two frets up
Same but one string down

And for each of those do a pass with a totally different amp setting and/or pickups

Try not going all the way to 11 on the high gain thing for every one, leave that for melodies and bass but the inner parts you could try using a compressor to get the same sustain but don't put so much distortion on. This might clean up the way the parts interact but it won't feel less powerful.

Keep the vibrato for the lead melody but try to play non-vibrato for the other parts, part of what make a choir so strong is just intonation on chords.

Try a little more panning

I'm not really sure how much can be fixed in post but I'd love to try it if I may.
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Old 02-24-2019, 03:57 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fergler View Post
Would you mind if we had a look at all the files for one of these? I've never worked with that many high gain guitars before.

I can say there are obviously going to be phase issues and generated harmonics from all the clashing frequencies. The high flute sound can be created from all the harmonics of each part stacking on top of one another.

If you do this process again, try a few things:

Normal
Normal but one string down

Strings (that you need) tuned up 2 semitones, play down two frets
Same but one string down

Tuned down two semitones, play two frets up
Same but one string down

And for each of those do a pass with a totally different amp setting and/or pickups

Try not going all the way to 11 on the high gain thing for every one, leave that for melodies and bass but the inner parts you could try using a compressor to get the same sustain but don't put so much distortion on. This might clean up the way the parts interact but it won't feel less powerful.

Keep the vibrato for the lead melody but try to play non-vibrato for the other parts, part of what make a choir so strong is just intonation on chords.

Try a little more panning

I'm not really sure how much can be fixed in post but I'd love to try it if I may.
Thanks for all the suggestions! I will surely try at least some of them. (The vibrato one I already figured out for myself after nearly getting seasick from using vibrato on all the tracks :-) )

I've sent you a private message with a link to the stems.
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Old 02-24-2019, 05:37 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by linusk View Post
Thanks for the reply. Actually, at the moment there is no EQing at all (and no other processing except for the amp simulation). Should I add a high-pass filter?
What I might try is this...

Bring up the "Add FX To:" panel. Once you are there, type "JS: RBJ 1073 EQ" in the search box. Add that effect to some of the higher guitar parts. Once you do, the first parameter you can adjust is "HPF". It's a drop down menu. That drop down menu allows you to select the frequency of the HPF(high-pass filter). You might want to start with 160(third option in the drop down menu).

Try applying that high pass filter to the higher parts, and see if it does anything to minimize the issue that you mentioned.

If it does, you can always try it on most of the guitars in the overall upper range of what you are doing and see if it is better than just using it on the highest parts.

Quote:
Originally Posted by linusk View Post
Exactly, it's a single guitar, and I found an amp sim (in Pod Farm) that sounded okay, and then simply copied the FX to each of the tracks.
Does the guitar have a tone control?

If so, you could try backing it off to seven or eight on the higher parts and see if it creates less of the "Muffling" that you mentioned while potentially minimizing some of the sound you don't like.
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Old 02-24-2019, 05:40 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fergler View Post
...

Try not going all the way to 11 on the high gain thing for every one, leave that for melodies and bass but the inner parts you could try using a compressor to get the same sustain but don't put so much distortion on. This might clean up the way the parts interact but it won't feel less powerful.

...
Here, I would agree with that changing the degree of saturation on the different parts may very well be a path to where you want to wind up.
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Old 02-25-2019, 04:06 AM   #10
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I find it helps a lot while layering multiple guitars, especially when using an amp sim to use a different amp simulation for each guitar thus not duplicating the same frequency resonance(avoids boosting the same frequencies) as a matter of fact I have gotten into the habit almost never using the exact same amp sim preset twice...ever(especially the cabinet impulse), this is definitely one of the biggest advantages of using amp sims for recording. IMO
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Old 02-25-2019, 04:13 AM   #11
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Hi. I have nothing to add to the technical discussion but listening to your work I was oddly (?) reminded of this instrument:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RVS5rm8JMe4

I wonder if recording them gives similar issues (although I too was not overly disturbed by any buildup of frequencies etc. in your recordings) .

If you run out of choir pieces the Breton tradition is very rich indeed!
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Old 02-25-2019, 09:29 AM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vdubreeze View Post
I've found with multiple single line distorted guitars eq'ing the master bus isn't a good way to fix an issue. Better to do it at the track level...
Yeah, the whole point in recording multitrack is to allow control of the individual elements. Work from the tracks simply because you CAN!


Cool idea too!
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Old 02-25-2019, 10:31 AM   #13
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This is relevant to my interests. I like to do this with acoustic guitars in the Beatles/ELO style. I know so little about this, but I've found that it's really easy to build up mud frequencies when layering/stacking instruments. That's 350hz-450hz, according to my research. I do see it on the spectrum analyzer.

I would second track-level eq. Each track will have it's own weird spots and you need to listen to each to figure that out.

One problem I've yet to solve is perceived loudness in the individual tracks. Sometimes you have to solo out each track to hear/see what's going on. They sum to an appropriate level, but individually can be rather quiet. I usually pop headphones on to hear super critical stuff, then go back and forth between the track, submix, and entire mix. I still often $%#^ it up.
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Old 02-25-2019, 11:30 AM   #14
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EQ'ing stuff critically - or conversely, arranging instrumentation to focus ideas without masking anything (as a purest might suggest) - is the 'meat and potatoes' of the complexity here.

It very well can be complex work with even with the raw multitrack in front of you! But it's right there in front of you to grab hold of if you can figure it out. Working from the mix bus? That ship has sailed at the mix bus! Those colors are mixed together now. If you thought it was complex when separated... it's impossible at the mix bus without all kinds of compromise.
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Old 02-25-2019, 12:33 PM   #15
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And it all depends on what you're going for. Using less overdrive, no compression and different amp sims will yield more definition and clarity, but at the expense of sustain and being"glued together" as much. Compression and limiting at the track level, more overdrive and using the same amp makes it a more cohesive and blended sound at the expensive of the definition of individual parts standing out and it sounding more like something that isn't guitars. All, and everything more and in between, is good. And one person's creamy being another person's dull.
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Old 02-25-2019, 01:12 PM   #16
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Okay, you're clearly a Brian May fan. It might be beneficial to look up how he "mults" his guitar tracks.

It might also help to let the more experienced among us see how you've routed/organized the different parts. (By which I mean, not me lol.)

I would be tempted to approach it as an actual vocal choir and separate the individual voices (soprano, alto, tenor, bass) into busses/folders. Then you'd start with the basses, making sure they have a good blend. Then move onto the tenors and so on. I've sang in many choirs and this is it's usually done. The sopranos, altos, and basses take a break while the director works with the tenors, for example.

I could be way off base here, though.
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Old 02-26-2019, 09:52 AM   #17
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I like it, sounds good to me. Reminds me of late 80s / early 90s Scatterbrain or maybe some Steve Vai.

I did notice some ear fatigue but it only crept in on the third track that I listened to, which was the second one in your links, which to me implies that it's more the same-ness of the material that could be generating the ear strain.

I agree with others about varying the amount of gain and/or using other ampsims.

In addition to the suggestions above, you might also try some compositional changes. Since it's all guitars all the time, they really need to carry everything. Adding some percussion and/or a synth bass (assuming you don't own a bass, otherwise use that), or introducing more rests for the different voices or voice groups. Still, that's a bigger change as you'd need to revise the actual music AND re-record. I'd try to fix it in the box first.
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Old 03-08-2019, 06:32 AM   #18
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I do this a bit sometimes - usually not as a choral arrangement, but several melodic lead lines happening at once.

In doing this, variety is your best tool. Different guitars, different picking styles, different registers (if one guitar is played at open position, do the next at 5th fret, the next at 9th fret, etc.). Pick one near the bridge, one at normal, one over 12th fret, some with fingers, some with picks. Maybe try using one or two parts 'Nashville strung', where you get a set intended for a 12 string, and only install the skinny strings.

Panning is another tool. Spread low parts narrowly across the center, and pan middle and high parts out wider. It's best to do this after getting the best possible mix in mono, first.

Here is a link to a song I recently finished that has 4 lead guitars going on at once during the bridge that illustrates some of this stuff. It happens about 2 minutes in, just before the saxophones come in.

Link:
https://www.soundclick.com/bands3/so...13690036&popup
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Old 03-08-2019, 10:36 AM   #19
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Kind of reminds me a little of the guitar work on Thin Lizzy's "Cowboy Song". Love what those guys did on that.

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Old 03-18-2019, 03:23 PM   #20
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First, I just wanted to say that this idea is cool AF. A lot of people have already hit on it, but variety seems like it'd be your friend here. If you think about a choir, you've got actual people that may have similar voices and the same vocal range, but all kinds of different timbres, which makes the whole thing very rich.

Since you've got one guitar, you can vary things with Pod Farm by picking different amps or subtly changing the EQ on the amp's controls a little bit. There are also a ton of cabs and a few micing options in Pod Farm that might yield some interesting results. And you could always go down the rabbit hole of Cab IRs.
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