Gaza

[hamish]

Thanks for checking out the timeline Lokasenna, I am pretty disturbed about the whole thing, most of all american (especially congress) support for Israel.

Regarding Lloyd Thomas I find his collecttion of facts very helpful in undersanding the context. I don't know how well regarded he is by historians, probably not at all, he is a christian foremost and he is a biblical prophesicst which is an obvious bias. Others would argue that he glosses over some things, especially the role of Rothschild in establishing the european jews in Palestine, and the proven deal between Rothschild and Hitler.

The Begin quote, I'll work on it. It doesn't suprise me in the least that it's not on the wiki page. Just look how rosy Rudolph Guiliani comes up looking. Wiki is not a source I go to for any information in any way sensitive. I avoid wikipedia especially for any and all historical and political information.

Regarding 'The' holocaust I find the Lloyd Thomas pages helpful here to.

Maybe I out myself as a febrile conspiracy theorist here, but the pogroms and anti-semitism in France, Spain and England spanned something more than 800 years. Why is it that Hollywood bombards us with multiple ('The') holocaust movies a year (I think there were 3 holocaust movies nominated in the oscars?) While ignoring this earlier spectacular period of history? Is it something to do with which colonial powers palestine was aquired from?

Regarding Yiddish Supremacist. I will not budge here. I have met and been friends with many arabs and jews over the years. I know what a sephardic jew is and what an askenazi jew is. I know what an expression of racism sounds like.

I only just read this one TODAY and yet it was written in 1985 by Jack Bernstein. I'm sure american jews are very familiar with this. How is it that this rings so true?

quote [ http://www.biblebelievers.org.au/israel.htm ]

The marriage ceremony was held in the Sephardic Synagogue. The ceremony was simple but beautiful. Ziva and I were happy, but our marriage created serious problems. You see, Ziva is a Sephardic Jewess and I am an Ashkenazi Jew. For an Ashkenazi Jew to marry a Sephardic Jew is frowned upon in Israel by the ruling Ashkenazis. To understand why this is the case, you must realize the difference between the Sephardic and Ashkenazi Jews.

The powerful Zionist propaganda machine has led the American people to believe that a Jew is a Jew — one race of people and that they are "God's Chosen People". I will deal with the "God's Chosen People" LIE later. First, it is important for you to understand that Jews are NOT one race of people.

There are two distinct groups of Jews in the world and they come from two different areas of the world — the Sephardic Jews from the Middle East and North Africa and the Ashkenazi Jews come from Eastern Europe. The Sephardic is the oldest group and it is they, if any, who are the Jews described in the Bible because they lived in the area described in the Bible. They are blood relatives to the Arabs — the only difference between them is the religion.


[]end quote {sorry about the 'obvious bias' but this is an ashkenazi jew denouncing ashkenazi jews and he did it because of a culture difference. He was not a Racist. BTW he was assasinated for his troubles.}

So I stand by what I say. David Ben Gurion, Menachim Begin, Ariel Sharon and their ilk are Racists, and they will even murder other Jews for their landgrab in what was biblical Jerusalem Israel, Judaea and Samaria.

Do you realise that the Jews of the 'exile' period went to what is now Iran 2,700 years ago, and they are still their today? Do I need to quote a source? Wikipedia maybe? How much voice are Yemenite Jews given on Wikipedia. If your poor you don't own a computer. If you get one and you try to put anything on a certain little clique will revert your edits, harass you and ban you for 'vandalising' a page. I watched it happen when a berber arab tried to make edits on a page about Tunisia. He was banned for edits that were POV.

The ashkenazi in Tel Aviv and Washington would bomb them.

later (I won't post for a week or so - if anyone can find the source of that Menachim Begin quote it would be interesting)

[hamish]

You know I really don't want to know what a crud like that said exactly, or where. The following are undisputed facts, quoted from Bernstein "The Life of an Amereican ..."

By 1948 when Israel declared itself a state, these invading Jews had increased their land ownership; but, it was still less than 6%.

To accommodate the increasing European Jewish migration, the Jews needed more lands but the Palestinian Arabs refused to sell. So, to get more land from the Palestinians, these communist oriented European (Ashkenazi) Jews resorted to the one thing at which they are adept — TERRORISM.

Their first major act of terrorism against the Palestinians was at the Palestinian village of Deir Yassin. During the night of April 9, 1948, two Zionist terrorist gangs, the Irgun and the Stem Gang attacked and massacred over 250 men, women and children.

Menachem Begin, leader of the attack on Deir Yassin and later Prime Minister of Israel, has this to say, "The massacre was not only justified, but there would not have been a state of Israel without the 'victory' at Deir Yassin'.

The massacre at Deir Yassin caused other Palestinians to flee their homes in fear. Zionist terrorists drove trucks with loudspeakers through the streets and over the roads of Palestine warning Palestinians that what happened at Dear Yassin would happen to them if they didn't leave.

These Zionist terrorists weren't bluffing: For Example:

* They killed 60 Palestinians at Balad Esh Sheikh.
* They blew up 20 homes in Sa'sa, killing 60 women and children.
* They killed a number of women who were working in Saint Simon monastery in Jerusalem.
* They massacred 250 at Lydda.
* They killed 200, mostly old people, in the village mosque in Ed-Dawayimeh.
* They killed 51 workers as they returned from their fields at Kafr Qasem.
* Christian inhabitants of Kaba Bir'im were expelled from the village and the village destroyed. The village cemetery was desecrated, including the smashing of 73 crosses.

During the few months when these and other acts of terrorism were taking place, 300.000 Palestinian Christians and Moslems were forced to leave their homes or be killed by the terrorist groups which were made up of European, communist oriented Jews. It was these same Marxist oriented Jews who were soon to became the ruling elite of the State of Israel. From the beginning, and to the present, these terrorist Marxist oriented Zionists have ruled Israel.

[hamish]

In 2009 we can safely answere him "millions" ---

The question arises: How many Arabs will they kill when the Zionist/Bolsheviks gain control over the Mideast and when they gain physical control over America? They already have control of nearly every phase of American life. If the Zionists ever succeed in imposing gun control on the American people, there will be nothing to stop them from complete take over America.

----

The answer is "millions" because the Zionist calling themselves the 'neocons' including Donald Rumsfeld, Dov S Zacheim and others (Richard Perle) hijacked the Bush government and the american military on sep 11 2001. They executed their most audacious act of terrorism (Zachiems granfather was a bolshevik, and founder of BETAR, a latvian Zionist group).

Using the media to equate terrorist=arab+muslim they then set about killing Afghans and then Iraquis in figures that exceed a million.

They used the 'war on terror' as a front to rachet up their atrocities on their immediate neighbors.

But I'm boring you. Also if you live in NY I guess like some on this forum this particular topic is one that may have you looking over your shoulder a bit.

It does in melbourne too ; )

[semiquaver]

its really sad to read this kind of post in a public place. I don't know where to begin.

It really makes me fearful to see this kind of paranoid, ignorant frothing.

Sephardic Jews are Jews who come from Spain and Portugal - these Jews were dispersed largely to North Africa and the Middle East in 1492 by the Inquisition. Ashkenazim on the other hand come from Germany in the middle ages. In the middle of the 2nd millennium Ashkenazi Jews had spread throughout Eastern Europe and Russia. Both groups came originally from the Middle East - they were scattered by the Roman conquest of Palestine.

Why is there such interest in the Holocaust? It was a mere half a century ago and 12 million people (half of them Jews but lets not forget the others: Gypsies, gay people, political prisoners) were senselessly murdered in huge death camps. The US and UK were on the right side of that particular struggle so of course Hollywood produces shows about it. Half the worlds Jews were killed. And there have been oscar nominated films about pogroms in Russia - ever seen "Fiddler on the Roof"?

Anyhow I don't know what it is that makes people go ape-shit crazy when the subject of Jews and Judaism comes up but Hamish please please get your head together - this kind of talk is literally dangerous, what can I say?

[Jae.Thomas]

Originally Posted by hamish

You know I really don't want to know what a crud like that said exactly, or where.

convenient.

your credibility just went out the window at this point.

whats the rest of your post say?

blabhlablabllablalblblalblalbla

[Lokasenna]

Agreed. Posting such obvious crap as if it were unquestionable, and then going "oops, I can't find anything for it, who cares what an evil Zionist bastard like Begin had to say anyway?" kills your entire argument. Just stop.

[hamish]

Originally Posted by semiquaver

Sephardic Jews are Jews who come from Spain and Portugal - these Jews were dispersed largely to North Africa and the Middle East in 1492 by the Inquisition. Ashkenazim on the other hand come from Germany in the middle ages. In the middle of the 2nd millennium Ashkenazi Jews had spread throughout Eastern Europe and Russia. Both groups came originally from the Middle East - they were scattered by the Roman conquest of Palestine.

Wrong. Your 'facts' on the origins of the Jews of 'Ashkenazim' are wrong. You're quite wrong. I shut up about Begin for this post.

You conveniently ignore, or perhaps don't understand that the word 'Ashkenazim' means 'German' in Khazarian. It is this language that, with a few words of hebrew from the Babyonian Talmud, plus Old High German gives us yiddish. 'Both groups are from the middle east' is wrong old son. The Ashkenazi are directly formed by the converts of King ***** in 740, migrating or fleeing westward as their kingdom (present day Georgia not the 'middle east') was overrun by Mongol Hordes. Look at Lloyd Thomas and many other sources. The kingdom of Khazaria was at one time a safe haven for other Jews and so there was some intermingling of genes and culture. But the division has survived very well obviously.

I just don't know where to begin. The Israeli Murderers still occupy Gaza and offer no reparations. They continue to prevent aid getting into Gaza.

I'm quite serious you people. Take a long hard look at who you are protecting and defending with your PC chorus.

Yes there was an Ashkenazim before the Khazarians arrived but they took over the original (Semetic) Ashkenazim. The 'Germans' for their part called the Khazarians 'Aryans'. Point is 'Ashkenazi' and 'Ashkenazim' are words of Khazarian origin. A Point is who is semetic here and who isn't? (when there are organisations set up to scream 'anti-semite' at anyone who criticises)

If we can't discuss current affairs history in a public place then there goes your 'free world'.

[Lokasenna]

Originally Posted by hamish

I just don't know where to begin. The Israeli Murderers still occupy Gaza and offer no reparations. They continue to prevent aid getting into Gaza.

Israel pulled the last of their troops out four days ago...

[GermanFafian]

Originally Posted by hamish

I'm quite serious you people. Take a long hard look at who you are protecting and defending with your PC chorus.

That is what I would advice to you and all media who make Hamas look like innocent sheep being slaughtered by their merciless neighbors.

[Iokanaan]

Originally Posted by Lokasenna

Find me information with a credible source, citations, and no obvious bias in the authorship, and we'll talk.

http://video.google.fr/videosearch?q...d&hl=fr&emb=0#

check this, compare to what you belive concerning this cinflict, and then, only, you will manage to start to talk in knowledge of what you deal with. Before, alas, and against for your own will (that I'm ready to consider as good will), you're just an official propaganda repeater - a propaganda which has billions of dollars of political interests behind ... and billions of litters of blood - mostly Arab bloood - on its hands.

[Iokanaan]

To all :

As I see you like to use the internet tool for researches, here's an advice. Make some about the name "ROTHSCHILD", especially concerning its links with the beginning of zionism and also its links with the "Warburg" name and the IG Farben (with all the societes directed by Prescott Bush which were accused during the war of business with the ennemy), IG Farben without wich the Nazis would simply have never taken the power in Germany and which did produce the Zyklon B gas. Make also some about a book from a jewish author (Lenni Brenner) called "the hidden documents of zionism - the zionist collaboration with the nazis". At last you could do some researches about Israël Shahak, a former president of the league for Human Rights in Israël, and what he says of the State racism there (and its "sacred" causes and religious roots). You will discover a face of zionism that you did not know. Of course, CNN did not tell you that...

The jewish people were are still are the great victims of zionism. Not the protected ones. The instrumentalized ones (and the real truth is that behind there is a New World order in action that does not give a fuck about jews and forwhich zionisme is just a stone of its pyramid : here is that in which Hamish is wrong with his idead of a jewish plot : there is a plot that is far from being jewish, but which takes hold of a so called jewish cause to serve its own interests, of which Israel is just a mean). The beauty of the the jew soul is the first spiritual victim of the cancer that is zionism - which is, in its ideologic principles, a jewish nazism (and oh, make some researches about Yeshayaou Leibowitz, an israeli thinker who first talked about "judeonazis"). And, oh, Jabotinsky and his "wall of Iron" theory, to understand precisely what is behind the so-called idea of the "fight for existence" of Israel. And Illan Pappé, the famous israeli historian who wrote the book "the ethnic cleansing of Palestine". you wanted facts ? See the way he demonstrates how the violence of Israel is driven by (adn compulsory to) the very theorical fondaments of zionism and the idea of the "Great Germany" for the superior people oops sorry of the "Great Israel" for the chosen people which has to be ehtnically cleaned of its inhabitants.

Equally as Arabs, jews are the first victims of zionism who NEED to be freed from it. If this is not done, one day or the other, there will be another mass slaugtering. And considering History, for sure, be careful of what you praise here when you make of Israël the great victim acting in legitimate defense abnd the Hamas as the greedy racist barbarian murderous gang. You're just switching the two roles. Tomorrow may see you at the place of those who say "but... but.. I did not know". And History may tell you that this refrain has already been heard once. History and the collective memory is not particulary tender with those...

One last link for the pleasure (French subtitles but English speaking) :
http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x3q...et-ro_politics

Have a good red pill.

[Lokasenna]

Originally Posted by Iokanaan

http://video.google.fr/videosearch?q...d&hl=fr&emb=0#

check this, compare to what you belive concerning this cinflict, and then, only, you will manage to start to talk in knowledge of what you deal with. Before, alas, and against for your own will (that I'm ready to consider as good will), you're just an official propaganda repeater - a propaganda which has billions of dollars of political interests behind ... and billions of litters of blood - mostly Arab bloood - on its hands.

I don't have time to watch more than a couple minutes of that, but let me repeat the quote of mine you pasted.

Find me a credible source, with citations. That does not mean a Google video showing pictures of dead Palestinian kids with no verifiable context.

Oh, and -10000 points for bringing up the whole Rothschild thing. I'm well aware of the supposed family that owns 120% of the world's wealth and media and orchestrates world events to make themselves richer. And you know what? I really don't believe it. For all the people (and trust me, it's not a small number) who bring up the Rothschilds as being behind the world wars, the Israel/Palestine conflict, etc, none have ever shown me any evidence to back it up. Yes, the Rothschilds own banks. Yes, the Rothschilds are rich. Yes, in propaganda broadcasts from fascist Italy they were outed as being warmongering Jewgoblins.

Oh wait, that last bit was propaganda. Oops.

[GermanFafian]

This whole "New World Order" and world domination stuff is getting old.
In the end it looks as if the only ones free of crime are the Palestinians.

[hamish]

Belated apology for what seems to be a bad quote.

"The Palestinians are beasts walking on two legs."
-- Israeli Prime Minister Menachem Begin, speech to the Knesset, quoted in Amnon Kapeliouk, "Begin and the 'Beasts,"' New Statesman, June 25, 1982.

"The Partition of Palestine is illegal. It will never be recognized .... Jerusalem was and will for ever be our capital. Eretz Israel will be restored to the people of Israel. All of it. And for Ever."
-- Menachem Begin, the day after the U.N. vote to partition Palestine.

It appears the 'master race' quote of Begins is indeed a fiction created by combining the 'beasts walking on two legs' with something in Jimmy Carters memoirs.

Anyway, I am sorry for you blokes in Canada. You think censorship is just something that happens in China, right. Propaganda, nup never seen any of that on my teev.

Ok Iokanaan - "The jewish people were are still are the great victims of zionism. Not the protected ones. The instrumentalized ones (and the real truth is that behind there is a New World order in action that does not give a fuck about jews and forwhich zionisme is just a stone of its pyramid"

Excellent statement. I would say this a different way, that's why I say to the apologists of Barak/Sharon/Netanyahu/Begin/Meir/Ben Gurion 'think about who you are protecting'.

They are protecting the very people who exploit the holocaust, in fact are the very people who collaborated. I mean when you sympathise with what you think is Israels right to exist do you mean this guy? Yitzhak Arad.

Anyway Iokanaan, t'es raison, j'en prends de tes liens, I je m'amuserai, merci.

[Jae.Thomas]

Originally Posted by hamish

*post ignored due to loss of credibility*

sorry, its over for you and this discussion after that mess up.

[semiquaver]

Hamish: from Wikipedia

The theory that the majority of Ashkenazic Jews are the descendants of the non-Semitic converted Khazars was advocated by various racial theorists[15][16] and antisemitic sources[17][18][16][19] in the 20th century, especially following the publication of Arthur Koestler's The Thirteenth Tribe. Despite recent genetic evidence to the contrary,[20] and a lack of any real mainstream scholarly support, this belief is still popular among groups such as the Christian Identity Movement, Black Hebrews, British Israelitists and others (particularly Arabs[21][22][23]) who claim that they, rather than Jews, are the true descendants of the Israelites, or who seek to usurp the connection between Ashkenazi Jews and Israel in favor of their own. For more detail on this controversy, see below.

go look at the footnotes and links - this is another Anti-Semitic canard: genetic studies are unequivocal - Ashkenazi and Sephardic Jews are really and truly the descendants of the Jews of classical antiquity - the Jews of Judea. Don't be confused by fanatics.

@Ioknaan - please don't threaten Jews with "another mass slaughter". This is why Jews want a piece of ground and an overwhelming military superiority... I belive the offensive in Gaza was wrong and I support Israeli withdrawal from the West Bank. I am not a 'Zionist'. But Someone in France suggesting that Jews might have been deserved slaughter in the past and may deserve it in the future gets my hackles up. Please try to understand...

[Iokanaan]

[QUOTE=Lokasenna;278099]I don't have time to watch more than a couple minutes of that, but let me repeat the quote of mine you pasted.

Find me a credible source, with citations. That does not mean a Google video showing pictures of dead Palestinian kids with no verifiable context.

/QUOTE]

This is not a video showing dead Palestinians pictures (and saying that shows that you don't have even watched the few minutes you claimed). This is an official and credible documentary (probably made for a British television) of 80 minutes not only quoting people living there, but
INTERVIEWING them, from both sides in a more or less equal measure - and interviewing people from the medias in the Western World. If you don't have 80 minutes to give to this question for watching a relevant and lightening video, don't pretend to have a point of view on this question.

[Iokanaan]

Originally Posted by Lokasenna

Oh, and -10000 points for bringing up the whole Rothschild thing.

Hummm. how to say this without hurting you... RExcuse me, but... Who do you think you are ? A judge to distribute good and bad points ? Sorry, but something makes it very hard for me to recognize such an authority like yours.

Originally Posted by Lokasenna

I'm well aware of the supposed family that owns 120% of the world's wealth and media and orchestrates world events to make themselves richer. And you know what? I really don't believe it. For all the people (and trust me, it's not a small number) who bring up the Rothschilds as being behind the world wars, the Israel/Palestine conflict, etc, none have ever shown me any evidence to back it up. Yes, the Rothschilds own banks. Yes, the Rothschilds are rich. Yes, in propaganda broadcasts from fascist Italy they were outed as being warmongering Jewgoblins.

Oh wait, that last bit was propaganda. Oops.

I'm not dealing with the wealth of the family and I don't give a fuck about it. I'm dealing with its orchestration of the New World Ordrer. I'm dealing with its links with the IF Farben and the Warburg, qwith Zionism. All the documents I have would be in French so make your search on your own if you wanna know what's going on in the world you live in that will explose at your face in less than 10 years. If you don't, then accept to say that you don't know and suspend your judgment instead of giving good and bad points to people dealing with questions you know nothing about.

And for the "jewgoblin" (and the veiled accusation behind that I know too well), one last thing. I'm wearing a kippa. Just to mention.

You say those people are jewish ? You and me don't have the same definition of judaity. Mine is spiritual, refering to the spirituality called judaism adn to the wisdom of the first believers - and considering that, those people are not jewish for a long time ago.

by the way, if you want absolutely undeniable demonstrations and proofs about this question, you will never have them until one day : the one you will see it out of your window. German people during the war - and others - also did not want to believe those "propagandist" lies about places where jews were exterminated (what a bunch of crapn this idea of such a murderous conspiracy, don't you think ?). The undeniable proof, they had it at the end of the war, when the evil was done and when they were forced to see what was hidden to them before - and what they did not want to see. What did they say ? "I did not know". What you will probably say. You will excuse me for hearing the alarm before everything collapses.

[Iokanaan]

Originally Posted by semiquaver

But Someone in France suggesting that Jews might have been deserved slaughter in the past and may deserve it in the future gets my hackles up. Please try to understand...

Have I even started to say such a thing ? No, I did not. If you think so, then you imagined them - and you imagine too much in the direction of a certain propaganda of our time.

Just to mention : I'm wearing a kippa. Hope this may help you undertsand how far I am from wantintg such a thing to happen.

What I'm saying is that the fear of a second Shoah made some jewish people do what fear always does, which is to create the very object it is supposed to protect from. Do you know that horses fear so much fire that when one bursts, they freak so much that they... run directly in the fire and perish there, attracted by the very strength of their fear.

Gess what ? We do exactly the same. This is what is fear. If you accept to turn it into acts, it will make happen the object at the basis of it.

this is what is Israel : a place born into fear (there would have never been such a thing without the "help" of nazism and the Shoah) where judaism is (falsely,and this is why it is so important to save judaism from zionism) so deeply linked to something absolutely monstruous above all thing that it entails the very hate it is supposed to be a protection from.

What I'm saying is that zionism is the very first current cause of antisemitism in this world (and you don't imagine the number of great jewish thinkers who claim the same). I'm also saying that such an operation as the one of Gaza which is, I thnink, the very beginning of something darker, entails so much pain and hatred that if this does not stop NOW, I mean it, NOW, then one day the floods of hate accumulated during years will overflow on Tel Aviv and from the deepest of my heart I cry in advance thinking about this day. But I smell it in the air - an air that stinks death. Don't you ? Well, maybre I'm imagining - or maybe you have a cold that empeache you from smelling.

On that point too, believe me, I'm not the only one saying that the attitude of Israel is suicidal, in a pathologic and neurotic way, and that stopping this is a very question of life or death for the Israelis. I think it was Uri Avnery or Gideon Levi who wrote an article about this recently in Haartez (a left wing Israeli newspaper).

[Lokasenna]

1. The suggestion that the Rothschilds are behind world events, major wars, etc is raised frequently in discussions of Israel and the Jews, and over many such discussions I have yet to see any sources for it that can be believed. The closest thing I HAVE found are propaganda broadcasts by Ezra Pound from WW2 Italy - I don't need to tell you how much of a bias that suggests.

By bringing up the Rothschilds, I find it harder to take you seriously.

2. When I said that I don't have time to watch a movie-length documentary about the Palestinian occupation, I meant that I literally don't have time. I'm fairly busy, and if my free time is a choice between working on music and watching a movie, music typically wins.

That said, I did flip through the video before I posted this morning to try and get an idea of how decent it is, watching 5-10 seconds here and there. It wasn't bad, though I wasn't exaggerating about the dead children. If you found me even a remotely-neutral source talking about how the Palestinians are nothing but victims here, I'd be happy to read it, but so far there have been no such sources offered.

[semiquaver]

Iokanaan - why are you wearing a kippa? are you Jewish?

[Iokanaan]

Originally Posted by semiquaver

Iokanaan - why are you wearing a kippa? are you Jewish?

From a spiritual point of view, considering the very basis of judaism - aka not including all the racist crap coming from the talmudic litterature and authors like Maimonide - yes. It's a little bit more complicated than that, but to sum up you can say that, partly, yes.

[Iokanaan]

Originally Posted by Lokasenna

1. The suggestion that the Rothschilds are behind world events, major wars, etc is raised frequently in discussions of Israel and the Jews, and over many such discussions I have yet to see any sources for it that can be believed.

The Rothschild are not the only ones. The Rockefeller have a major role too. Make researches about their link with Monsanto, the foundation of the CFR, their place in the Bilderberg reunions, etc...

For the Rothschild, I repeat, make researchs about the IG Farben which was partly administrated, if my recollection is correct, by Prescott Bush - ressources can be found since he was accused during WW2 by the US government to make business with the enemy.

[Iokanaan]

Originally Posted by Lokasenna

That said, I did flip through the video before I posted this morning to try and get an idea of how decent it is, watching 5-10 seconds here and there. It wasn't bad, though I wasn't exaggerating about the dead children. If you found me even a remotely-neutral source talking about how the Palestinians are nothing but victims here, I'd be happy to read it, but so far there have been no such sources offered.

1 – In what way do you estimate that such a documentary made for a television is not enough a « remotely-neutral » source to receive your consent ?

2 – the pictures you do mention of dead Palestinians children : if they are in the documentary, it is because THEY DO EXIST. This is THE REALITY of what people of your kind are experiencing in this part of the world, may it be neutral enough for you or not (and what do you say about the neutrality of those pictures of bodies taken from the ground in death camps duriçng WW2 ? Not neutral enough to be taken seriously ? Ypur so called "wisdom" that makes you refuse to see this is also the beginning of negationnism).
In what you were saying, you did not refuse pictures, but pictures WITHOUT any context. What do you want of more than an 80 minutes documentary which gives you the context, shows you by images the context, interview people who explain and detail for you the context ?

3 – What can be more neutral concerning the Palestinian cause than Israelis – aka people from the other side – revolting against the barbary of their own side as they are shown and given speech to by this video ? You have people from peace associations, associations fighting against the still in process colonisation, from the medias, thinkers, even people from the army if my recollection is correct. What do you need more ? That Ariel Sharon himself gets out of his coma to explain to you how bad he was with those people ?

4 – Several years ago, the 4 last headchiefs of the Shin Beth (the Israeli internal security organisation which is to the Mossad what the FBI is to the CIA, to explain) made a common declaration saying in substance : “ we run straight to the catastrophe. We have to realize that there is a people with who we act in a shameful way. We would not dare what we do to them. We have to renounce immediately to the Great Israel and to give back the colonies”. Is this credible and neutral enough for you ?

5 – One does not count the UN reports and the non governmental organisation like the Red Cross which depict the horror lived by the Palestinians there, not only when Gaza is bombed and our attention focused on it, but daily – the life in the Occupied Territories that is made impossible, the tyrannical and violent military oppression there, the arbitrary imprisonment (even of children) with torture, the growing expropriation and dispossession of their homes and lands of the Arab people by the Israeli government, all things clearly detailed and demonstrated in the 80 minutes movie you don't want to watch. There is a resolution from the UN which is from 1967 and which definitely defines the frontiers of Israel as they are recognized by the international law THAT GAVE BIRTH to it, engaging Israel to give back those lands taken illegally by force and unrecognized as its legitimate property. For 40 years now this resolution has NEVER been respected and turned into acts, the territories mentioned are the so called “Occupied Territories” that you medias call “West bank” to make you forgive by the manipulation of words that they are illegally occupied, while, as several Israelis associations denounce it, the colonisation still grows into them day after day, Arab houses demolished, “Jewish” settle men houses built upon them. Isn’t all this neutral enough for you ?

6 – One human law you seem to ignore. The law of human suffering. When one of your kind suffers the martyr, if you don’t pay attention to this suffering because you have better things to do (music for example), it is bound, one day, to become your suffering, to invite itself to your life and to spread its blood on your shoes – a blood that once may become your if you refuse to cnsider it while it's still not. There is a moment when bombs and chaos will impeach you from taking your guitar more surely than a video that would let you engage by the heart with a fair and human cause. This day, don’t come and cry and say this is not fair, because it won’t come from nowhere – and from a moral point of view, you simply don’t have the right to watch one people of your Kind die in front of your eyes without reacting.
There is a day when we all will have to render counts about the chaos that is coming and to take our responsibilities. “Proofs were not solid nor neutral enough and I had other and more important things to do” will be your answer when you will be reproached not to have stopped what you were doing to try and choke the fire when you were only seeing smoke from it. Today you don’t find that the elements given to your means of comprehension of the world are solid enough to believe and act - or at least to awake your curiosity and take your time to search -, to get you little personal nose out of your little personal guitar for that. One day you may have the bad surprise to see that the very excuses you give to yourself not to find 80 minutes to open yourself to the martyr of your Kind will be considered not solid and not respectable exactly the same way. I’m sad for you about that in advance – sincerely.
“The world will not be destroyed by the evil men but by them who watch them do without reacting” Einstein substantially said once (a wise Jewish man and, oh, surprise, an anti-zionist too - at least at the end of is life). One day you may have the bad surprise to discover that you were one of them – and that you are taken responsible for that, responsible for having found better things to do when the smoke was growing and the alarms signals were to be heard by those who have some ears (and a human heart to care).

[Iokanaan]

Originally Posted by hamish

Anyway Iokanaan, t'es raison, j'en prends de tes liens, I je m'amuserai, merci.

At least there is one of this forum who will take the time to watch. It's funny to realize that it's precisely the one accused from all the others to be in propaganda and not in the search pof truth, who, in facts, shows the opening of mind and mental disponibility required by any people who can claim to be seeking for truth.

I would have prefered this coming from one of those whose certainty about this conflict would have been hurt badly by those images, but I take what you give to me. Thanks Hamid .

[semiquaver]

what could possibly be your complaint with Maimonides? And what "racist crap" from the Talmud are you talking about? Do you read Hebrew? And my question "are you a Jew" should not be so complicated to answer - so I'll ask you one more question: was/is your mother a Jew?

Those of us who are Jewish and who are critical of the Israeli occupation have a very difficult time when we find ourselves in the company of anti-semites, cranks, and conspiracy theorists. Surely one can find the attack in Gaza atrocious without attack the Talmud!! and blaming Nazi atrocities on a Jewish family! and saying that Askenazi Jews are not really Jews, and foretelling another mass bloodletting as a result of Zionism.

Yes the situation is a mess, and the displaced and their suffering are real and need consideration. But can Jews not have a home? They too were displaced from their ancestral home. And in Europeand in the Arab world they suffered terribly for millenia. After the Jews of Europe were largely exterminated the world agreed for the moment.

Zionism is simply the idea that the Jews of the world should return to their ancestral home and build a nation. Not that Jews are a "master-race" or better than anyone else. It was a movement born in the 19th century, and I would agree that a religious or ethnic basis for a state is not a modern notion, but neither is Zionism some kind of nefarious demonic conspiracy for world domination.

Listening to Hamish and to a lesser extent Iokanaan has made me feel MUCH less likely to criticize Israel on a public forum as I don't want to feed the insanity. You have made me realize what a dangerous world this is for Jews - not just in places like Mumbai and in the Arab world but in Europe as well....

[Lokasenna]

Originally Posted by Iokanaan

1 – In what way do you estimate that such a documentary made for a television is not enough a « remotely-neutral » source to receive your consent ?

2 – the pictures you do mention of dead Palestinians children : if they are in the documentary, it is because THEY DO EXIST. This is THE REALITY of what people of your kind are experiencing in this part of the world, may it be neutral enough for you or not (and what do you say about the neutrality of those pictures of bodies taken from the ground in death camps duriçng WW2 ? Not neutral enough to be taken seriously ? Ypur so called "wisdom" that makes you refuse to see this is also the beginning of negationnism).
In what you were saying, you did not refuse pictures, but pictures WITHOUT any context. What do you want of more than an 80 minutes documentary which gives you the context, shows you by images the context, interview people who explain and detail for you the context ?

3 – What can be more neutral concerning the Palestinian cause than Israelis – aka people from the other side – revolting against the barbary of their own side as they are shown and given speech to by this video ? You have people from peace associations, associations fighting against the still in process colonisation, from the medias, thinkers, even people from the army if my recollection is correct. What do you need more ? That Ariel Sharon himself gets out of his coma to explain to you how bad he was with those people ?

Did you miss where I specifically said that I literally do not have time to watch the movie?

4 – Several years ago, the 4 last headchiefs of the Shin Beth (the Israeli internal security organisation which is to the Mossad what the FBI is to the CIA, to explain) made a common declaration saying in substance : “ we run straight to the catastrophe. We have to realize that there is a people with who we act in a shameful way. We would not dare what we do to them. We have to renounce immediately to the Great Israel and to give back the colonies”. Is this credible and neutral enough for you ?

Without a reference for the quote, no, but I do find it a bit more believable than the phony Begin stuff Hamish posted earlier.

5 – One does not count the UN reports and the non governmental organisation like the Red Cross which depict the horror lived by the Palestinians there, not only when Gaza is bombed and our attention focused on it, but daily – the life in the Occupied Territories that is made impossible, the tyrannical and violent military oppression there, the arbitrary imprisonment (even of children) with torture, the growing expropriation and dispossession of their homes and lands of the Arab people by the Israeli government, all things clearly detailed and demonstrated in the 80 minutes movie you don't want to watch. There is a resolution from the UN which is from 1967 and which definitely defines the frontiers of Israel as they are recognized by the international law THAT GAVE BIRTH to it, engaging Israel to give back those lands taken illegally by force and unrecognized as its legitimate property. For 40 years now this resolution has NEVER been respected and turned into acts, the territories mentioned are the so called “Occupied Territories” that you medias call “West bank” to make you forgive by the manipulation of words that they are illegally occupied, while, as several Israelis associations denounce it, the colonisation still grows into them day after day, Arab houses demolished, “Jewish” settle men houses built upon them. Isn’t all this neutral enough for you ?

I don't know much about Jewish history between the end of the Old Testament and the establishment of the Palestine Mandate after WW1, but I've read a fair bit about Israel in the 20th century. My impression continues to be that, after declaring independence, Israel got picked on by all the other countries, who ended up forcing Israel into a war in which Israel managed to capture land from their attackers. The phrase "taken illegally by force" loses meaning in a war. It's war, that's what happens. If Jordan and Egypt weren't prepared for some losses, that's their fault.

The West Bank is currently under Israeli control as a result of that war. In what way does that not give Israel the right to do what they want with it, especially when - as far as I can tell - the Palestinians continually refuse any reasonable proposals for a Palestinian state?

6 – One human law you seem to ignore. The law of human suffering. When one of your kind suffers the martyr, if you don’t pay attention to this suffering because you have better things to do (music for example), it is bound, one day, to become your suffering, to invite itself to your life and to spread its blood on your shoes – a blood that once may become your if you refuse to cnsider it while it's still not. There is a moment when bombs and chaos will impeach you from taking your guitar more surely than a video that would let you engage by the heart with a fair and human cause. This day, don’t come and cry and say this is not fair, because it won’t come from nowhere – and from a moral point of view, you simply don’t have the right to watch one people of your Kind die in front of your eyes without reacting.

War is a fact of human life. I would be an idiot to deny it. I've read and watched so many books and movies (by which I mean documentaries, not Hollywood) that the horrors of war are something I have no trouble picturing. In that sense, watching one more movie wouldn't mean anything, it wouldn't make war look any worse to me than it already does.

I believe that war is the last resort of someone who gives up and says "fine, my words aren't working, let's try it the old-fashioned way". It shouldn't have to happen, but it always will.

There is a day when we all will have to render counts about the chaos that is coming and to take our responsibilities. “Proofs were not solid nor neutral enough and I had other and more important things to do” will be your answer

You're right, I will say exactly that. And you know what those more-important-things-to-do were? Looking after myself and my family. My obligation is to myself and them, and nobody else. If I want to help other people, that's nice of me, it's not a requirement. Personally, I think too many people in the world are worried more about other people than themselves, and I think that's the root of most of the troubles we have to deal with. I could go on and on about religion's part in that, but I suspect it wouldn't be anything new to any of us.

[Iokanaan]

Originally Posted by semiquaver

what could possibly be your complaint with Maimonides? And what "racist crap" from the Talmud are you talking about?

Read "Jewish History, Jewish Religion: The Weight of Three Thousand Years" by Israel Shahak (president of the League for Human Rights in Israel) and you will understand. Understand that there is a judaism from above and a judaism from the ground which IS, not in antisemitic fantaisies, but in the very texts some of which are considered sacred, racist and supremacist. Judaism share with all the other religions this common point : a part of divinity and a part of monstruosity.

Originally Posted by semiquaver

And my question "are you a Jew" should not be so complicated to answer - so I'll ask you one more question: was/is your mother a Jew?

No. Now my turn to ask a question : was Abraham's mother jewish ? The answer is no. You have an ethnic definition of judaïty. I call this a racist perversion. Judaity does not refer to a flesh nor to a blood (and as Shlomo Sand, an Israeli historian, demonstrates in a recent book, the myth of a "people" is an historical crap invented by zionists). Judaïty refers to an ensemble of basic spiritual principles called judaism. I am a son of this - and of Abraham. So I wear a kippa - and in my heart, partly, I am Jewish. And claim so. May you like it or not.

But your question points out the great weakness of Israel, the unacceptable nature of its principles from the true universalism that IS judaism (the one from above which I praise) : it declares itself as a Jewish state not meaning "the state where the wisdom of judaism is applied" but "the state reserved only to the people in the World whose ascendance and blood and flesh are recognized by an ethno-tribal system as "jewish". A state that declares itself as dedicated to a certain ethny - and excluding the others - is a state that carries racism in its very definition - and which, in its applications, can be nothing else than a segregation, especially when people from a "not chosen" ethny live here by millions for hundreds of years. Zionism is a colonialism that takes racist criterias as theorical foundations - and which, in pratice, entails dispossession of their means and lands to people because of their ethnical origins (not the good one, sorry fellows, get out) exactly like the Nazis did to the Jewish people in the 30's - in the german society which did not already put into place the extermination and which "only" opressed and took hold of the physical properties of the jewish people, a society to which Avraham Burg, ancient president of the Knesset (the Israeli Parliament), compares the current israeli one where he sees the same violecne and racism and loss of empathy growing into the hearts of the citizens towards the humiliatetd and oppressed ethny).

This is the reason why the political application of zionism has, since its very beginning, brought what Illan Pappé, an Israeli modern historian, call "the ethnic cleansing of Palestine". Because zionism, as a not spiritual but carnal idea of a Jewish state, leads NECESSARY to this ethnic cleansing and declares the land of Israel to be ethnically pure. Those ideas exist since Herzl. Go and seek if you don't believe me. Make researches about Jabotisnky's theory of "the iron wall" which has to be opposed to every Arab population on the land to expell them in order to make the land purely "jewish". It is from 1923 and it is recognized to have lead all the policics from the Israeli governemnt since then, because there is a biblical "Great Israel" and that it is just out of question to renounce to any part of it nor to share it. This Is what is zionism - and this is a cancer inot the jewish soul, as all the jewish socieities (including the one of the Jewish inhabitants of Jerusalem) recevied and rejected it when it arrived.

Originally Posted by semiquaver

They too were displaced from their ancestral home.

So were Indians in America. Would you recognize them the right to take all the WASP and throw them away, claming "this land was the one of our father, not 2000 years ago, but 300" ? Of course not - because time has passed, because new human realities have taken place and that you can noo erase them that way. So it goes for the anceint jewish people and the Arab people of Palestine. The Black people suffered during centuries, 16 millions (not 6, but 16) perished in slavery. What would you say if they came to your country and declared they have so much suffered that they can revendicate it as their own because their ancestors were there thousands of years ago, and if they did put a "Black state" there dedicated only dedicated to Black people and strictly forbidden to others ? You would declare this as a barbarian manifestation of a medieval state of the human mind. And you would be right. Contrarily to what's been taught to you, it does not cease to be so because the adjective "Jewish" is put instead of the Black (or Aryan or Whatever) one. The rules of morality are the same for everyone (this is one of the basis of universalism, which, I remind, took place for the 1st time in judaism in the History of ideas)) and there is no golden palm of the Great Suffering that gives derogations nor privileges regarding it.

Originally Posted by semiquaver

And in Europeand in the Arab world they suffered terribly for millenia.

Saturday I just discussed with a mebmer of a jewish anti-zionist association (UJFP) who told me that his family came from Tunisia and that the Jewish people there have never had problems, I mean real problems, not only discord between communities that occur sometimes in every place of this world where different communities have to learn to live together. I repeat, because, this is one of the basis of judaism that is betrayed by zionism : to learn to live together, not to create an over-militarised and ethnically cleansed land to build wall around and accept there nothing that is not from the pure blood. The truth is that the Jewish persecutions in the Arab countries is a zionist lie - one of the many upon which they made Israel. Watch the documentary "Israe/Palestine route 181" made by an Israeli movie director. You will see a family who came from Irak to Israel saying the same thing. Even in Iran nowadays it is recognized to be an important Jewish community which has no problem to live and vbe respected, which, considering the military threats Israel puts upon this country, is purely a miracle - but of course, CNN forgets to say this.

Originally Posted by semiquaver

Zionism is simply the idea that the Jews of the world should return to their ancestral home and build a nation.

This is the politically correct wikipedia definition of it. Go behind the veil. Go and question the facts. Go and question 60 years of a bloody history. Go and question the state racism there. Give yourr attention and ears to the sincere and honest people who losse their breath denoucing it. WAKE UP ! And stop defending now a system that will takes you with it in its tomb - in its programmed decline. Then, and only then you will know what zionism is and may deal with it.

Believe me when I say all this to you, I sincerely feel compassion for you, because I know the tremendous propaganda and brain washing that leads you to say such things. But please, question all that you've learn. Refuse to believe anything that you did not go and seek by yourself before, and don't close yourself to ANY idea before having the means to prove it wrong ny yourself. I thought the same as you before spending years studying the question and falling from desillusion to desillusion. But the desillusion is necessary because while we are lulled with lies to make us accept the unacceptable in Western countries, in this part of the world, the unacceptable is done and I repeat, it has to be stopped now - because the people who suffer from this unacceptable, they have a memory and they don't swallow the same craps as we do.

You want to impeach those truths to emerge and explode ? You will never manage to, becasue it's in its nature (truth), to raise once - and the latter it does, the most destructive manner it takes to do. all yu can do is orientate the way it will be seen and received by the world. Itsis NOW time to desolidarize yourslef to the monster called Israel before you fall with it. It don(t say this to threat you but to try and prevent you, to try and make you open your eyes.

Originally Posted by semiquaver

Listening to Hamish and to a lesser extent Iokanaan has made me feel MUCH less likely to criticize Israel on a public forum as I don't want to feed the insanity.

You're wrong. The more Jewish people will be able to give a public criticism of Isreal instead of making a block behind it (which feeds tremendously antisemitism), the more people will manage to make a clear difference between the racist murderous monstruosity that is the political state of Israel and the Jewish people, and the more you will give chances to the people not to perish into the naufrage to which is condemned the state of Israel by its very basic foundations.

(the rest of my reply can be read after the one dediacted to Loksanna)

[Iokanaan]

Originally Posted by Lokasenna

Did you miss where I specifically said that I literally do not have time to watch the movie?

Then receive this request and advice : stop posting on a thread concerning a question about which you know nothing but the mainstream propaganda and that you refuse to take the time to learn and understand in its depth and truth. One has the absolute right not to want to learn about any subject. He also has, in consequence, the duty to remain silent - and humble.
And oh, now that the pedestal of knowledge from which you distributed them has shown its vacuity and fallen apart, please, for your own credibility, stop giving good and bad points to people because they put into question your intellectual comfort and your certitudes.

Originally Posted by Lokasenna

Without a reference for the quote, no, but I do find it a bit more believable than the phony Begin stuff Hamish posted earlier.

The reference I coudl give you would be French newspaper articles. I think it does not interest you. If you want to know, search by yourself and google the point.

Originally Posted by Lokasenna

. The phrase "taken illegally by force" loses meaning in a war. It's war, that's what happens. If Jordan and Egypt weren't prepared for some losses, that's their fault.

So if Lebannon , after the Israelis invasions of 1982 or 2006, had had the military power to take hold of the whole Palestine and to declare it an arab state into which the jewish populations could be oppressed - and of which they could be expelled -, you would find it normal because this is war ? And when the European nations declared war to Hitler and that he did invade some of them, would you say this was normal because this is war ? And if he had managed to invade the Us after the failure of the Normandy attack, you would have found it it normal too, because war is war ? I hope you manage to realize the absolute weakness and vacuity of this argument - and the terrible jungle world it would draw if we decided as you do to legitimate it...

Originally Posted by Lokasenna

especially when - as far as I can tell - the Palestinians continually refuse any reasonable proposals for a Palestinian state?

This is the exact proof of a - sorry to say that - COMPLETE misknowledge of the israeli-palestinian conflict. It don't blame you for that. This is the mainstream propaganda - a propaganda about which giving 80 minutes of your time to watch the movie I gave you the link would have allowed you to be a little more enlightened and aware of. Read Norman Finkelstein or go and visit his website - or, if you don't want to and prefer remaining into your cave with your family and guitar, indifferent to the screams out there into the outside world, then at least have the decence to remain silent. There are some people suffering and some others dying in the shades of the lies you choose to repeat.

Originally Posted by Lokasenna

War is a fact of human life. I would be an idiot to deny it.

Wrong. War is a choice. The worst one. Ever.

Originally Posted by Lokasenna

In that sense, watching one more movie wouldn't mean anything, it wouldn't make war look any worse to me than it already does.

The idea was not to make you understand what is war - but what is behind THIS war, to understand this particular war that, soon, will also be your, you future fellow citizen of the North american Union, thanks to the architects of the New World Order who, as they did not make a common and pulbic declaration, don't exist.

Originally Posted by Lokasenna

You're right, I will say exactly that. And you know what those more-important-things-to-do were? Looking after myself and my family. My obligation is to myself and them, and nobody else. If I want to help other people, that's nice of me, it's not a requirement.

Then the day this war will invite into your country, town, very family and home, don't come and cry. And if the world remains indiferrent to this - which will not be the case because it will not have the choice to - then don't blame it. Blame yourself.

[Iokanaan]

Originally Posted by semiquaver

You have made me realize what a dangerous world this is for Jews - not just in places like Mumbai and in the Arab world but in Europe as well....

Zionism - and nothing else in this measure - makes the world dangerous for the Jewish people. You should go further and realize that the world only carries the dangers that zionism in general - and its "pure" political manifestations as is the inhumanity of an operation like the one in Gaza - creates. The very day the ISraelis will manage to let refuse to let their fear lead them into isolation and reject of the external world (refuse to let it make them dive into the fire they fear), the very day they will accept to live on this land WITH the Arabs that were there before them (not before their 2000 years ago ancestors, but, definitely, before THEM), the very day they will accept to recognize to Arabs exactly the same rights to live there - and to Arab lifes exactly the same price as a jewish one, and the fact that 85% of the population in Israel gives its support to something like the Gaza attack shows it is not the case -, this very day, there will be peace. This very day, the world will cease to be dangerous for them.

don't put the blame on me. By the way I militate, I'm trying to save those people from, may it please you or not (and believe me when I say it makes me cry in advance) what is, if things do not change radically of direction, and already written tragedy coming. I don't call it from my vows. I just hear it, because I have ears for that. May it be your case, this is all I hope.

[semiquaver]

Iokanaan - I am not a victim of "brainwashing" and propaganda - I have a decent grasp of the history, and of Jewish traditions and history. I consider that I have a critical understanding, I am not a Zionist, nor am I religious. My father was a professor of history - Italian Fascism and Zionism were his specialties. I have spent some time in the middle east - in Israel, Egypt and Morocco.

I am not an enthusiastic supporter of a "Jewish" state - believing instead that a *secular* Hebrew republic would be better. I believe in full political rights for Israeli Arabs and that Israel must undo the settlements.

but this:

Zionism - and nothing else in this measure - makes the world dangerous for the Jewish people

is *absolute* bullshit. The Jews did not suffer pogroms and annihilation because of Zionism.

There are many ethnic and religious states, Saudi Arabia anyone? Islamic Republic of Iran? the Vatican? Ethnic identity plays a huge role in the history of the great nations of Europe. Should we talk about Africa? Yes all of this is going to have to give way to a more modern and pluralistic notion of nation. In Israel as well.

But the interest, animus, fanatacism, and paranoia surrounding Israel is all out of proportion, dangerous and totally fucked up. Iokanaan - why not take a look at Racism and anti Semitism in France? Tend first to your own.

Hate to be an ass but I'm blocking Iokanaan and Hamish - if any of the rest ofgyou want to argue about Gaza and middle eastern politics without crazy paranoid quasi-mystical folderol I'm here...

[hamish]

I'm sorry that semiquaver has had to withdraw, because he obviously has a valuable contribution to make, having lived in Africa and the Middle East, and being close to his fathers scholarship.

It is a pity because the frenchman also has a very high level of scholarship, even though it is of an 'alternate' or 'revisionist' or heck can I just say unpopular with authority?

I withdraw, both of the above have more to say than I. I hope that in time others can be prompted to wonder more about what they know.

I have learned from this exchange. I'm afraid semiquaver, despite his personal experience and officialy sanctioned knowledge has lost me by his attack on the validity of Iokanaans contribution.

But I largely agree with some of semiquavers position on israel, except for the secular part. My sincerest wish is that an outbreak of peace can occur in the Holy Land.

The very reason for the high excitement and hysteria is because of this religious history.

For this reason the State must be co-managed by it's religious stakeholders. Not an atheistic militarised coalition of Bolsheviks.

Goodbye and thanks.

[Iokanaan]

Originally Posted by semiquaver

this is *absolute* bullshit. The Jews did not suffer pogroms and annihilation because of Zionism.

You are talking about an ancient world of an ancient time... A world that does not exist anymore for a long time now. Of course Zionism was not the main reason of the old Anti-Semitism. But there is no progrom anymore, nothing of that kind, and the Jewish people are highly protected into the Western world. Israel may be the most dangerous place for a Jewish to be now. And I insist on this point : the world has changed (so stop living with your ancient ghosts and traumas and stop letting them destroy the present) and in the world that we see and live in, now, currently, the main reason of modern antisemitism is zionism and its concrete incarnation in the harsch military racist and murderous politic of the State of Israel. Fighting against this new antisemitism (which is my aim, as you did not seem to undertsand and which explains my militantism) means to do all the things possible to see Israel stop what it does and to see the Jewish people stop supporting it because this support kills their image over the world and makes totally forget the truth that I claim which is HOW, in its foundations, THE JEWISH SOUL IS BEAUTIFUL.

Originally Posted by semiquaver

There are many ethnic and religious states, Saudi Arabia anyone? Islamic Republic of Iran? the Vatican?

Those are not ethnic states, but, as you mentionned, religious ones. They are not forbidden to people from others ethnies like Israel is (once again, see the wealth of the jewish community in Iran), they don't have a carnal notion of Islam, they claim to be representations of the islamic spirituality - and not to be dedications to the Arab blood, contrary to Israel which is dedicated to the jewish blood.

The difference between a state that defines itself from an ETHICAL point of view (may one like this ethic or not, it's another discussion) and a state that defines itself from an ETHNIC point of view is simply absolutely tremendous. May Israel be Jewish from and ethical point of view - aka a representation of the Jewish wisdom in its law WITHOUT INCLUDING ANY NOTION OF ETHNIC AND TRIBAL hierarchy of the population -, and it will cease to be the racist monster it is, and I will gladly support it instead of condemning it.

Originally Posted by semiquaver

But the interest, animus, fanatacism, and paranoia surrounding Israel is all out of proportion, dangerous and totally fucked up.

This interest comes from the fact that it is 60 years now that all this longs and that it HAS TO END ! By the way, regarding with interest what happens into a conflict that will probably give us a third world war does not seem completely out of measure for me. And if you're not aware of that then once again sorry to screw your day but I will not put butterflies and rainbows in my speech not to scare you, sayong to you that we live in a shinny happy world. We live in a shitty world that is at the point to collapse and there is a world war coming for which the attitude and political choices of the judeo-chirstian Western world towards the Arab-muslim one - choices turned towards oppression, dispossessions of their lands, sil ressources, humiliation and denial of their dignity as human beings and a civilisations, modern colonialism and all the mediatic propaganda made for that - will have a tremendous responsability for what is coming tomorrow. We live the time we live and it's time to put our hands into its shit to solve it before it drowns us all, may you totally freak out and insult me with all the birds names you want when I do precisely put the hands into this shit without lies nor complaisance.

Originally Posted by semiquaver

Iokanaan - why not take a look at Racism and anti Semitism in France? Tend first to your own.

I should have suspected such an end of discussion, which is so common when one arrives out ouf stock with his arguments. Such an assertion has to be demonstrated and I would have asked you to do this but I won't since, firstly, those seem to be your very last word (this is a little easy and short as an escape, don't you think ?) and secondly, because I start to be bored - and deceived - by you and don't want to waste my time as it seems obvious that from your side the discussion has just entered an irrational mode.

If for you praising (loudly) the beauty and wisdom of the basis of judaism and denoucing some of its later perversion (while clearly comparing on that point its destiny to the one of all religious system without at a single moment making of judaism an exception) is an antisemitic attitude, then I'm sorry, the world must be something very scary for you to experience as a Jewish and the world to come will be absolutley terrible because you will see and hear far worse and one day you may realize that the company of people having my speech was a luxury.

Anyway, this last choice which is your to insult me in treating me of antisemitic without the very beginning of a demonstration and to block me shows that paranoia, irrationality and excess is not from the side that you claim and denounce. Believe it or not, I sincerely do pity you for that. Wish you good luck for the hard times to come.

[ShumMakom]

Israel is probably the most merciful country in the world...

any other country would have wipe the hell out any country that shoot missles to its country (after one missle any other country would have start a war).

other than that, israel is one of the smallest countries in the world, and the only country for jews, not to mention that israel is one of the oldest nation in the world.

there are many BIG countries for muslims and christians...there is no other place for jews.

Israel is the land of jews for thousands of years, any muslim should know this, but since muslims didn't notice how much mistakes there are in the koran, I don't expect them to be honest with the world if they can't be honest with themself.


The only thing that the people in Europe and US and the rest of the world can't figure out, is that the hamas and iran and all those hardcore muslims has one thing in their head these days, HOW TO FIND A REASON TO DESTROY ISRAEL.

Why do you think that the turkish sent those ships lately? they wanted to make provocations so they will find a good reason to break the peace and tell the world "see what they did!" while they didn't give israel any other choice.

[Lokasenna]

1. Way to resurrect a dead thread.

2. You say Israel had no other choice... how about not storming the ship and not shooting a bunch of activists who were bringing aid to Gaza?

Oh right, Israel says the ship wasn't carrying aid. But they won't let the UN investigate the situation, so we'll have to take their word for it.

3. "Israel was the land of the Jews for thousands of years" - see, I don't understand this. Thousands of other groups have been conquered or kicked out of their homes in the history of mankind, so why do the Jews get so much sympathy that we steal their ancient homeland (which other people have been living in for a few thousand years too) from the people inhabiting it and give it back to them? Should every other culture that got beaten and chased out get to move home? How much of the US should we give back to the Native Americans? After all, they only got chased out a few *hundred* years ago, so they should have a stronger claim, right?

I know they Jews have been persecuted for ages, and I entirely support the concept of a Jewish nation somewhere, but Israel is increasingly asking for it and hoping that the US continues to back them up.

[ShumMakom]

Originally Posted by Lokasenna

You say Israel had no other choice... how about not storming the ship and not shooting a bunch of activists who were bringing aid to Gaza?

Oh right, Israel says the ship wasn't carrying aid. But they won't let the UN investigate the situation, so we'll have to take their word for it.

Those soldiers did a conventional check, they did in the other ships (without any problem...) to make sure that there is only aid in those ships, these soldiers came down with PAINTBALL guns, they didn't expect to be attacked (LYNCHED!)

if you ask me, if I knew that the people on the ship will perform lynch in the soldiers like this, I would suggest to bomb this ship and screw all the bureaucracy, screw all of these brainwashed terrorists! they don't worth even one innocent soldier of israel!

the people on the ship were waiting for it to happen...like they were told to do it.

should I mention how low was the aid in those ships?! it was almost nothing compare to what israel gives to the people in gazza.

don't you think that this will be a stupid thing to fight soldiers while you know that at the end they will take over the ship? they knew that the soldiers won't attack them if they won't attack the soldiers...there was no reason to attack the soldiers.

why would they fight if they have nothing to hide?! because they want to gain something from this fight!

it was a provocation and there was a terrorist in there.

believe me, it isn't fun for these soldeirs...

US and all those fking big countries that "want to help", just proved to do fking bad job!!! hizbala and hamas got lots of weapons already...and so is iran and so is all those hardcore countries that only wait to have enough weapon to attack the whole world.

3. "Israel was the land of the Jews for thousands of years" - see, I don't understand this. Thousands of other groups have been conquered or kicked out of their homes in the history of mankind, so why do the Jews get so much sympathy that we steal their ancient homeland (which other people have been living in for a few thousand years too) from the people inhabiting it and give it back to them? Should every other culture that got beaten and chased out get to move home? How much of the US should we give back to the Native Americans? After all, they only got chased out a few *hundred* years ago, so they should have a stronger claim, right?

Anyway you look at it, israel should be here.
because even if I go with your idea, then the palestinaians has no right to claim for israel, because there is a whole new INNOCENT generation in israel already, they didn't conquer any country, they were born here.

but just to make it even more clear, Israel has evacuated (forced) her own people to leave settlements, even if those people were innocent, just because israel really want peace, but right after it was done, more missles were launched to israel! (seems that those terrorist wasn't happy to get closer to peace)

I would give them a tiny piece of israel! the more we give them, the more they attack and the better strategic places they get...MAKING PEACE WITH SUCH HOOLIGANS IS ABSURD...

Anyway you must be either blind or hypocrite to not be able to see what really happen there... [EDIT: sry...you don't have to be blind or hypocrite, you can also be a gullible person...)

there will never be peace with these hardcore muslims...

I know they Jews have been persecuted for ages, and I entirely support the concept of a Jewish nation somewhere, but Israel is increasingly asking for it and hoping that the US continues to back them up.

let me tell you something about that.
I don't care what the world think anymore...the Liberal world proved to be hypocrite according to his needs. they don't give a fuck about the truth or about "their friendly countries".

screw US's help...without their "help", israel could have stop iran from gaining so much missles and nuclear weapons.

I don't believe Obama (which may turn to be a hardcore muslim eventually)..it was wroten that there will be a leader that everyone will love and be hyped on him, and he will turn to be a nightmare...in the last few months this is exactly what happened.


Im so deeply tired of seeing israel's government being nice to everyone and explaining every single step that they do...Israel has the right to defense.
screw all those exploiting states, non of them care about Israel and the truth...they do whatever they do only to gain power and resources.

[Iokanaan]

@Schum

This is absolute misinformation and propaganda (to which I won't loose my time to answer), the kind of which will be once taken as responsible for the coming world war. Be aware of the consequences of your acts.

[ShumMakom]

Originally Posted by Iokanaan

@Schum

This is absolute misinformation and propaganda (to which I won't loose my time to answer), the kind of which will be once taken as responsible for the coming world war. Be aware of the consequences of your acts.

you live in your bubble and feed your brain from the tv and chit chats...

as I said...I don't give a fk about your opinion anymore, your pathetic answer would mean nothing to me, since I live here and I know who I live with.

Iran (ahmanijad) is laughing at everyone's face including your country.

you guys just talk about those things for fun/action...Israel is under danger day by day, if we will trust you too much, we won't be here for long (and you won't be here too).

[mac_ro_s_12_]

http://video.foxnews.com/v/4223912/i...ylist_id=87937

[Iokanaan]

Originally Posted by ShumMakom

as I said...I don't give a fk about your opinion anymore, your pathetic answer would mean nothing to me, ...Israel is under danger day by day, if we will trust you too much, we won't be here for long (and you won't be here too).

This is EXACTLY what Israel is doing. Not giving a fuck anymore about anyone's point of view, diving into madness and imprisoning itself into the spiral of blind violence which, once, will overflow it.

You put yourself into danger with the need of nobody else's help by dispossessing people from their rights and dignity and land and by occupying and colonising and oppressing them and by occupying since 60 years on the single reason that they are not from the same blood as you, you are the responsible of the actually growing hate towards you that is rising, you have the power to end this, you refuse to use it, it's your choice.

Gaza is dying actually. Not you. And by your hands. The Palestinians are in danger. Not you. Do you know Norman Finkelstein ? A jewish American thinker, son of people who were in the Varsovie ghetto. He claims that what Israel is making to the people of Gaza currently is the same as what was made to his parents by the nazis. think about it.

I don't talk for fun/Action. I'm concretely thinking about being a part of the next ships to Gaza to try and help the people your country condemn to death. With no weapons. With no gun in my hand - only my heart. I hope I will have the occasion and the courage to do that. And I hope the ship will not stop when your military people will decide to refuse us the right to come in assistance of starving and dying people that you've decided to let die because you hate them from the depth of your corrupted heart. And if I die, I die. And if you support that, you will be responsible for that. And the day - that truly makes me want to cry when I think of it - the day when you will have to pay the bill of all you've done for 60 years is coming. I don't say it because I'm glad of it - it breaks my heart. I say it because that's the law of things.

You reap what you saw. For 60 years, you've sewed violence and hate, manipulation, oppression, racial discrimination. The time of the reaper is now. Wake up before it's too late. Wake up - and repent. This is not a threat. May you understand it or not, this is a friendly advice. Be of the rare heroes of your country who have enough heart to realize that the victim in this story is the Palestinians and that soon it will become you too.

Hope you will have a brain, a heart and ears to hear that. Because it's not impossible that this summer, the people you choose to vote for are going to start the third world war.