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03-14-2019, 08:18 PM
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#1
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: New Zealand
Posts: 2,905
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Roland Handsonic
I am thinking of purchasing a Roland Handsonic.
Anybody use this with Reaper, BFD3, BFD Percussion, SSD2?
I would welcome your views.
Also any key mappings out there I am a bit dumb on that side.
The reviews are pretty good however I do prefer 24bit sounds rather than the 16bit ones the machine offers.
Grinder
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03-15-2019, 10:39 AM
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#2
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: New Zealand
Posts: 2,905
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No one out there using one of these?
Grinder
I am thinking of purchasing a Roland Handsonic.
Anybody use this with Reaper, BFD3, BFD Percussion, SSD2?
I would welcome your views.
Also any key mappings out there I am a bit dumb on that side.
The reviews are pretty good however I do prefer 24bit sounds rather than the 16bit ones the machine offers.
Grinder
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03-15-2019, 01:10 PM
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#3
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Planet Earth
Posts: 9,055
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I don't have a Handsonic, but I can tell you kind of what to expect based on other drum controllers I have, some of which are made by Roland.
The easiest way to get things mapped will partly depend on how you have things currently setup. If you have identical or near identical key mappings on your various different drum plugins, then you will want to make the pad controller match them. Otherwise, create your own patches on the various drum plugins to match the stock mapping of Roland unit.
I use Superior Drummer when using digital drums and percussion, and it has a "learn" button that makes setting it up with pads as easy as selecting a sound, clicking learn, and striking a pad. Then it's linked up.
For presets between my various pad controllers and drum plugins, I've used REAPER, and created track templates that have whole kits of drums or percussion on multiple tracks, with everything pre-mixed and pre-routed so all I have to do when I want to add digital drums to play from my V-Drums or desktop pad controller, is add a track from one of the drum or percussion templates in REAPER.
Additional note: While my Roland V-Drums have built in sounds, I have not used them in almost twenty years. I use my V-Drums strictly as a midi controller and nothing else. The drum and percussion sounds you can get from plugins are generally higher quality than the ones in the ROM of a drum module. Plus using a VSTi is far more simple than trying to trigger outboard midi hardware, then bring it's audio into REAPER so that a stereo mix down would include it.
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Glennbo
Hear My Music - Click Me!!!
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Last edited by Glennbo; 03-15-2019 at 01:16 PM.
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03-15-2019, 01:26 PM
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#4
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Right Hear
Posts: 15,618
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I actually have one and might want to sell it...
I have used it with reaper and also stand alone into an amp...
Nice toy but don't currently have much need for it...
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03-15-2019, 03:34 PM
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#5
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: New Zealand
Posts: 2,905
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Glennbo thank you for your reply
Sounds like SSD and the roland go hand in hand.
Yes I do wonder if I should go with just a controller with pads.
We do not have a whole heap of quality controller pads here that I know of.
Where do you reside Hopi? Country I mean.
Thanks for chiming in.
What would you sell yours for? How old?
Grinder
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03-15-2019, 05:50 PM
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#6
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: New Zealand
Posts: 2,905
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Actually maybe I might be better off with something like the
QuNeo for Windows.
I do not really require sounds as such.
I wonder if this would map BFD3 in Reaper for me.
Grinder
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03-15-2019, 07:01 PM
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#7
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Planet Earth
Posts: 9,055
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I'm not familiar with that particular unit, but surely you can assign whatever midi note and channel you want to each pad and then save it as a setup or patch. I have a less sophisticated Akai MPD26 sitting on my desk, which is similar in functionality, but with physical knobs and sliders and 16 pads. With any decent pad controller you should not only be able to create a custom setup, but store multiple setups. I have one setup on mine that has nothing to do with drums. I programmed the sliders to pull the drawbars on Native Instruments B4 Organ.
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Glennbo
Hear My Music - Click Me!!!
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03-15-2019, 07:44 PM
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#8
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: New Zealand
Posts: 2,905
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Just looked at a video for mapping I think I might go down that road Glennbo save some money.
Thanks to you and Hopi for the knowledge...
Builds the confidence up!
Grinder
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03-15-2019, 07:51 PM
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#9
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 7,272
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I feel like most of what makes this worth even close to the $1000 I'm seeing around the web is its built in sound engine. If you're not using that, it's kind of just a reeeaaallly expensive drum pad.
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03-15-2019, 08:39 PM
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#10
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: New Zealand
Posts: 2,905
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Yes your right Ashcat-lt
I have found an Akai MPC Studio second hand...perhaps
Grinder
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03-19-2019, 02:21 AM
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#11
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jan 2012
Posts: 560
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The Handsonic sound engine is UNBELIEVABLY awesome. Where it really shines is in the African and Middle Eastern percussion tones. They are just amazing. THere isnt a computer sample library that even comes close to translating a players natural hand playing into realistic sound... but you have to play the damn thing like an instrument, not a MIDI controller.
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03-19-2019, 11:40 AM
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#12
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: New Zealand
Posts: 2,905
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Multibomber will it be easy enough to get it to merge with Reaper?
That is what I need to know Do you use it with Reaper ?
Is there any pitfalls?
Will this fit with BFD3 and Percussion in Reaper?
Grinder
Last edited by grinder; 03-19-2019 at 12:43 PM.
Reason: add detail
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03-19-2019, 04:00 PM
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#13
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 20,859
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Personally, I haven't had any issues getting any MIDI controllers setup or using them with plugins.
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03-19-2019, 04:44 PM
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#14
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: New Zealand
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Thanks for your reply Brainwreck
I just do not have any experience at that.
I just thought you may have tried the Handsonic in Reaper and Bfd3.
The controller I do use is an old Roland 200 MK 2!
gRINDER
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03-19-2019, 08:57 PM
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#15
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jun 2014
Posts: 1,392
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Just a note on the 24 bit thing - 24 bit doesn't sound any different to 16 bit, the former just allows more headroom when recording but when it's pre-recorded material like a sample library it doesn't have any benefit.
So don't let the number printed on the spec sheet make you think the sound quality will be in any way inferior to a sample library with a higher number.
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03-20-2019, 08:59 AM
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#16
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 20,859
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stews
Just a note on the 24 bit thing - 24 bit doesn't sound any different to 16 bit, the former just allows more headroom when recording but when it's pre-recorded material like a sample library it doesn't have any benefit.
So don't let the number printed on the spec sheet make you think the sound quality will be in any way inferior to a sample library with a higher number.
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If you notice any difference between 16-bit and 24-bit, it will be a bit more noise. But it is nothing to cry about.
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It's time to take a stand against the synthesizer.
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03-20-2019, 09:02 AM
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#17
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 20,859
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Quote:
Originally Posted by grinder
Thanks for your reply Brainwreck
I just do not have any experience at that.
I just thought you may have tried the Handsonic in Reaper and Bfd3.
The controller I do use is an old Roland 200 MK 2!
gRINDER
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For MIDI controllers, the last thing that I would worry about is compatibility with a daw. I know that some people want MIDI controller configuration to be as absolutely easy as possible, but I think the marketing of 'integration' for MIDI controllers is really overblown.
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It's time to take a stand against the synthesizer.
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03-20-2019, 09:08 AM
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#18
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Australia
Posts: 3,738
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Quote:
Originally Posted by brainwreck
If you notice any difference between 16-bit and 24-bit, it will be a bit more noise. But it is nothing to cry about.
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I'm still struggling to imagine how noise at -96db can be noticeable. If the noise floor was already higher than that, then 24 bit will just give you a deeper recording of the noise floor.
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03-20-2019, 09:15 AM
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#19
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 7,272
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Quote:
Originally Posted by drumphil
I'm still struggling to imagine how noise at -96db can be noticeable.
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Run it through a Rat pedal.
But I'm actually serious. The tails of the EZDrummer samples are pretty ugly. Not noise so much as like chatter as though there had been noise, but they gated it out. You have to get pretty extreme for it to make much difference, but I do sometimes, and it does.
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03-20-2019, 09:19 AM
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#20
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 20,859
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Quote:
Originally Posted by drumphil
I'm still struggling to imagine how noise at -96db can be noticeable. If the noise floor was already higher than that, then 24 bit will just give you a deeper recording of the noise floor.
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For 16-bit, it depends on how close to 0 dbfs the recordings are. And the noise floor can come up with compression, for example. I have some 16-bit samples where the noise floor is very apparent, although it still doesn't bother me in the least.
__________________
It's time to take a stand against the synthesizer.
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03-20-2019, 09:31 AM
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#21
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Human being with feelings
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Quote:
Originally Posted by brainwreck
For 16-bit, it depends on how close to 0 dbfs the recordings are. And the noise floor can come up with compression, for example. I have some 16-bit samples where the noise floor is very apparent, although it still doesn't bother me in the least.
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If that is the case then the samples were done poorly, or the sound generation system is somewhat broken by design.
It shouldn't work like that. All samples should peak close to 0db, and the sound generation system should take care of the perceived volume. Otherwise you're just throwing away dynamic range and trying to make up for it with extra bits in the samples.
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03-20-2019, 09:39 AM
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#22
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 7,272
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If we're talking about actual samples of actual drums there is actual noise in the chain that's not as good as 16 bit. Normalizing the samples can't help that, and anything you do to fix it is likely to be worse when things get pushed. I'd rather have noise generally.
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03-20-2019, 09:42 AM
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#23
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Australia
Posts: 3,738
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ashcat_lt
If we're talking about actual samples of actual drums there is actual noise in the chain that's not as good as 16 bit. Normalizing the samples can't help that, and anything you do to fix it is likely to be worse when things get pushed. I'd rather have noise generally.
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If the noise is already not as good as 16 bits, using 24 bits won't help.
If your noise is already worse than 16 bit, normalizing won't help, but it shouldn't make things any worse.
If your noise floor is better than 16 bit and you're recording in 24 bit, and your samples aren't approaching 0db, and the end product is going to be 16 bit samples, the normalizing gets the most out of those 16 final bits.
Last edited by drumphil; 03-20-2019 at 09:52 AM.
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03-20-2019, 09:51 AM
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#24
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jul 2006
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I will have to revisit those drum samples. But from what I remember, I have 16-bit and 24-bit versions of the same samples, and I noticed a little noise with the 16-bit versions. It wasn't enough noise to bother me in the least.
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03-20-2019, 10:01 AM
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#25
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Human being with feelings
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Location: Australia
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If you can hear more noise in the 16 bit versions they weren't normalized to start with. Unless you can hear noise that is -96b down.
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03-20-2019, 10:07 AM
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#26
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 20,859
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Quote:
Originally Posted by drumphil
If you can hear more noise in the 16 bit versions they weren't normalized to start with. Unless you can hear noise that is -96b down.
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That sounds backward to me. If they were normalized, the noise floor would come up. Keeping in mind that the word 'normalize' is typically used when talking about bringing up levels to a target, such as 0 dbfs.
Also, I think that there is nothing bad about recording all samples at the same mic gain levels and leaving those levels as is (at least for the major volume/velocity increments), signal path noise be damned. It sounds natural to me. Noise is subjective, of course.
Anyhow, we have strayed way off the original topic.
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It's time to take a stand against the synthesizer.
Last edited by brainwreck; 03-20-2019 at 10:13 AM.
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03-20-2019, 10:24 AM
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#27
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: New Zealand
Posts: 2,905
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Case Closed
I have an old HHB Pre Amp that has a -96db noise floor it is the sweetest thing...
Guy's I will purchase the Handsonic it will be more tactile for me.
I am confident I will not have problems getting it to interact with BFD3 and Reaper.
Thanks for the correspondence
Grinder
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03-20-2019, 05:05 PM
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#28
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Australia
Posts: 3,738
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Quote:
That sounds backward to me. If they were normalized, the noise floor would come up.
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If you have a 24 bit sample with a noise floor of -106db that peaks at -10 db, and you covert it to 16 bit you now have a dynamic range of 96-10=86db.
If you normalize it first it now peaks at 0db, and you don't have to subtract 10 and you get a noise floor of -96db.
If your samples have noise in them worse that -96db, then having a 24 bit version won't make any difference because the noise floor is no longer defined by the number of bits you have to work with.
If you can hear a difference in noise between a 16 bit sample and a 24 bit it's because the sample is quiet enough that you've thrown away too many bits of dynamic range, which will be less noticeable if you have the extra dynamic range of 24 bits.
Last edited by drumphil; 03-20-2019 at 07:23 PM.
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03-20-2019, 07:52 PM
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#29
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jun 2014
Posts: 1,392
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I'd imagine the sample recording process used by an elite company like Roland would surely be done in a very professional way and won't be plagued by any rookie mistakes that would cause unnecessary noise.
The sounds on that module seem to be well thought of at least.
I was really just pointing out that higher numbers on spec sheets can sound appealing like it's 1080p TV instead of 720p but this is one of the cases where the lower number spec (16 bit) is so good that having extra is redundant so not to let those numbers suggest anything to do with the sound quality.
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03-21-2019, 09:56 AM
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#30
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 7,272
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I assumed the Roland thing was modeled synthesis rather than sample based. I could be wrong, but they've been doing that in various modules for a while.
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03-21-2019, 10:43 AM
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#31
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: New Zealand
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I am not into 16bit 44 I reckon I can hear the difference that said though I am going to use this with BDF3 Percussion.
Yes the tracks will go down to 16bit 44 in the end.
I have it ordered will write back if I have made the right choice!
I am thinking it will be just right for me.
Grinder
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03-21-2019, 11:09 AM
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#32
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jul 2006
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ashcat_lt
I assumed the Roland thing was modeled synthesis rather than sample based. I could be wrong, but they've been doing that in various modules for a while.
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The Supernatural sound engine is sample-based, but I think what they do is use a very limited number of samples and crossfade sections of samples. So maybe many short 'attack' samples are crossfaded into fewer longer 'decay' samples, etc. to get a pseudo bigger variety of samples with a small amount of hardware memory. Their general aim seems to be smooth transitions between sample dynamic levels.
Personally, I think that the builtin samples in my Roland drum module are very meh. I don't use them at all, using the module as a MIDI controller only for software drum samplers. But software drum samplers also leave alot to be desired for dynamics, which seems to amount to the number of actual recorded drum hit levels.
It could also be the case that Roland uses some synthesis with samples for achieving a bigger variety of dynamics. Whatever it is that they do, it doesn't really compare with what software samplers do. But the upside is that latency is noticeably lower when using the builtin sounds than when using a software sampler. Too bad we can't have both without paying an arm and a leg.
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Last edited by brainwreck; 03-21-2019 at 11:24 AM.
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03-21-2019, 11:49 AM
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#33
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 7,272
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I haven't looked into this thing much, let alone heard it. People seem to like it for hand drum type percussion anyway. I've always disliked Roland drum sounds. All of their vdrum modules sound exactly like the old SoundCanvas. Korg drums were better, but I always preferred the Alesis stuff.
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03-21-2019, 12:43 PM
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#34
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 20,859
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ashcat_lt
I haven't looked into this thing much, let alone heard it. People seem to like it for hand drum type percussion anyway. I've always disliked Roland drum sounds. All of their vdrum modules sound exactly like the old SoundCanvas. Korg drums were better, but I always preferred the Alesis stuff.
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Roland drum sounds remind me of old school sample-based keyboard drum sounds. They are well done in their own right, but within the wider context of drum samples, I think they are way behind among what is available today.
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03-22-2019, 12:27 PM
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#35
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: May 2017
Posts: 3,202
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On Roland drumkits:
A guy gave me a Roland TD-3 kit (semipermanent loan) and initially I too was very unimpressed with the samples I got after doing a factory reset on it.
But after 13 months of recording sessions with a number of pro-level guest drummers, who each tweaked the sounds for that days work, over time it has become pretty killer sounding. I'm not much of a drummer, myself, I can hold a beat but I don't have the decades of ear training on drum sounds that these guys do.
I guess, in summary, it depends not so much what you have as it does how you set it up and use it. Being able to perform brilliantly is also helpful.
On the Handsonic:
If it had buttons to attach a guitar strap I think this thing would be awesome for live work, somewhat similar to the guy who did percussion for Bela Fleck & the Flecktones. He's right in front, along with the other performers. Not to mention a lot less work for loading/hauling equipment, micing a kit, time spent on soundcheck, etc.
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03-22-2019, 08:54 PM
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#36
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jun 2014
Posts: 1,392
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Quote:
Originally Posted by grinder
I am not into 16bit 44 I reckon I can hear the difference that said though I am going to use this with BDF3 Percussion.
Yes the tracks will go down to 16bit 44 in the end.
I have it ordered will write back if I have made the right choice!
I am thinking it will be just right for me.
Grinder
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If you do get it I would genuinely recommend setting yourself up some blind tests between 16/44 and whatever you usually use.
I say that because some people do rate the on-board sounds but if you have it in your head that they're going to sound worse because of the format then it'll always bias your assessment of them and, as someone pointed out, it's a lot of money just to use as a MIDI controller so you could be potentially missing out on a lot of good sounds that you'll already have.
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03-22-2019, 08:57 PM
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#37
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jun 2014
Posts: 1,392
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Quote:
Originally Posted by brainwreck
The Supernatural sound engine is sample-based, but I think what they do is use a very limited number of samples and crossfade sections of samples. So maybe many short 'attack' samples are crossfaded into fewer longer 'decay' samples, etc. to get a pseudo bigger variety of samples with a small amount of hardware memory. Their general aim seems to be smooth transitions between sample dynamic levels.
Personally, I think that the builtin samples in my Roland drum module are very meh. I don't use them at all, using the module as a MIDI controller only for software drum samplers. But software drum samplers also leave alot to be desired for dynamics, which seems to amount to the number of actual recorded drum hit levels.
It could also be the case that Roland uses some synthesis with samples for achieving a bigger variety of dynamics. Whatever it is that they do, it doesn't really compare with what software samplers do. But the upside is that latency is noticeably lower when using the builtin sounds than when using a software sampler. Too bad we can't have both without paying an arm and a leg.
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I think Roland were actually one of the first (if not the first) to have synths that use a mixture of samples and synthesis. In the early days it was to sample more attacky sounds that weren't as easy to synthesise then use the synth part to generate the parts of the sound that benefit more from that technology.
I don't know about this bit of gear specifically but BFD does use a mixture - most of the sounds are sampled audio recordings but some things like cymbal bleed and tom resonance are synthesised because that's more suitable to recreating those aspects of the sound realistically.
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03-23-2019, 07:41 AM
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#38
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Australia
Posts: 3,738
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If you really want to get a better understanding of the development of roland synthesis and the programming of drum sounds without enough sample ram to really do it by brute force, try doing some patch programming on a roland TD-7 drum module.
Pre JV-1080 technology, but closer to that than to that than the hybrid sampled/analog synths like the D-50. And a complete headf*#k to program effectively.
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03-23-2019, 09:38 AM
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#39
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Planet Earth
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Unless you are playing it live on stage, it's best to think of Roland drum controllers as great playing, highly responsive controllers that you will use to play other higher quality full samples with.
Like I said in an earlier post, I haven't had an audio cable plugged into my Roland V-Drums for at least fifteen years, and use them strictly as a soundless controller for playing Superior Drummer.
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Glennbo
Hear My Music - Click Me!!!
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03-23-2019, 09:41 AM
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#40
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 7,272
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@Glennbo - Like I said, and especially since the OP is pretty specifically wanting to use this with AD, it better play like a ****ing dream for that price!
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