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View Poll Results: Would you find this useful?
YES 3 75.00%
NO 1 25.00%
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Old 02-17-2016, 03:05 AM   #1
chumbo
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Default Better forum search engine ('Exact Phrase' & 'Exclude' operators)

Considering how complex Reaper can become, if you are a regular Reaper user, you probably visit the forum almost on a daily basis for answers.

PROBLEM: We really need to have the ability to search for an exact set of words and also to remove a word from a search result.

Example: I want to learn about the S&M Cycle Actions function. Currently, if I type: Cycle Actions, the result will be, ALL pages with at least one of the words, anywhere in the post!? And you can easily imagine how common those words would be here!

SOLUTION: to have what is very common on other search engines: search operators as the two I described above. For example, to find exact words, as if one word, in google e.g. you would type: "Cycle Actions". So that e.g., this wouldn't show up in your search results: "...When I CYCLE the loop, using this ACTION...".
And the other important one to have is the ability to exclude a word from the search results (using the minus sign in front of a word as in google for ex.).

As is now, I don't even bother using the Reaper forum search at all, and use google instead (using site:forum.cockos.com followed by my search terms. This allows me to use all the common google search operators as in fact 'exact phrase' & exclude functions).

But you can easily imagine how cumbersome that is. Also, the annoying thing with the google results is that it only displays the results on the left half of your screen, leaving the title of the search results severely truncated and making it hard to know what the content will be.

So, please, could we have this?
Thanks,

Last edited by chumbo; 02-17-2016 at 04:46 PM.
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Old 02-17-2016, 05:03 AM   #2
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because I know how endlessly tricky and complicated it can be to write a decent algorithm for a search-engine, I voted "no".

because there is a search engine, that does all you want: Google. they are professionals, and the devs waste time, money and effort if they want to program something that can not come even close to it.

so Google can be used on a specific website eg as this form in that way:

site:http://forum.cockos.com "cycle action"

use the Google operators and put your search like this: "site:[URL to be searched] [search string]"

disclaimer: I am in no way affiliated with the company named Google or any of their partners. I am not Mr. Page and not Mr. Brin.
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Old 02-17-2016, 05:06 AM   #3
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Originally Posted by LightOfDay View Post
Google can be used on a specific website eg as this form in that way:

site:http://forum.cockos.com "cycle action"

use the Google operators and put your search like this: "site:[URL to be searched] [search string]"
I get the feeling you didn't even read my post, but only the title. I describe EXACTLY that in my post and the reason why it still would be desirable despite the google option (because it has it's drawbacks too). I definitely know nothing of how to code this kind of stuff into a website but I am surprised so many other forums do manage to do it then...if it's so hard.

Another option I've seen on other forums (which looks similar to this one) is the ability the search the search results! That would be already a huge improvement and would help to narrow down the results a bit.
Anyway, I just think there is room for improvement, it would benefit everyone hugely for years to come, and maybe some smart guy could figure out something to make it better. I mean, there are A LOT more complicated things out there (hem...Reaper?). Is it really that hard??

Last edited by chumbo; 02-17-2016 at 05:19 AM.
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Old 02-17-2016, 05:57 AM   #4
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Originally Posted by chumbo View Post
Is it really that hard??
to write a good search? yes.

and what drawbacks has utilizing Google?

if there are some, there are on the other hand some upsides: Google is able to find misspelled phrases and things that mean in broader way the same but are not wordly exact. and that is beyond hard to do. a search is not simply strings comparing.

the Google search algorithm is by far the best on this planet. I am not a fan of Google, but stating only the facts.

in the end, there is a solution to your problem: use Google. if Cockos wants to do it for themselves is up to them, but I dont believe they put such a lot of effort into it to half afterwards an halfassed result.

a complete different thing would be to replace the forum search by a Google search. downside is that Google takes money if that search increases a number of searches per day and is dependent if the site is a commercial one or not. this forum here I think would be considered a commercial website.

Last edited by LightOfDay; 02-17-2016 at 06:05 AM.
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Old 02-17-2016, 06:11 AM   #5
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to write a good search? yes.
I wasn't asking for something as powerful and deep as replicating google's search engine on this forum, just to implement 2 fairly common and basic functions found in lots of other forums.

[QUOTE=Land what drawbacks has utilizing Google?[/QUOTE]

Again, you really should read my first post, this too was in my initial post. The drawback is the fact that google displays results only on the left half of the page, truncating the titles of each result so much that you have no idea what it's about??
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Old 02-17-2016, 12:13 PM   #6
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Originally Posted by chumbo View Post
Is it really that hard??
In this case, yes.

That's because the Reaper forum is running an old version of Vbulletin. I'm glad it's running an old version, because the newer V4 sucks. And that is because the company behind Vbulletin has gone big time commercial. Read: licenses are bloody expensive. Some Vbulletin devs jumped ship, some eager marketeers/investors entered the company...

In other words: Vbulletin is no longer the nice tool it once was.

Changing code has become a bit of a minefield. Security has gone down the drain. Migrating to something else is probably better than upgrading. And then, choosing a tool with better search, or better customization possibilities would be the answer to your query.

Until then, there's Google.

Migrating a forum isn't easy. And there are not many tools that offer more than Vbulletin and they all have some other drawbacks. Some change the paradigm "forum" so completely that some people on this forum would be up in arms.

In other words: I wouldn't want the job
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Old 02-17-2016, 01:37 PM   #7
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Wow! Ok, you clearly know A LOT more about this than me, I give up, you win! :-S
Still...too bad :-(
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Old 02-17-2016, 01:48 PM   #8
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In this case, yes.

That's because the Reaper forum is running an old version of Vbulletin. I'm glad it's running an old version, because the newer V4 sucks. And that is because the company behind Vbulletin has gone big time commercial. Read: licenses are bloody expensive. Some Vbulletin devs jumped ship, some eager marketeers/investors entered the company...

In other words: Vbulletin is no longer the nice tool it once was.

Changing code has become a bit of a minefield. Security has gone down the drain. Migrating to something else is probably better than upgrading. And then, choosing a tool with better search, or better customization possibilities would be the answer to your query.

Until then, there's Google.

Migrating a forum isn't easy. And there are not many tools that offer more than Vbulletin and they all have some other drawbacks. Some change the paradigm "forum" so completely that some people on this forum would be up in arms.

In other words: I wouldn't want the job


I'm a little astounded that there are so many forums still running the old version of vBulletin. I'm concerned that the security issues of old software will bite us in the ass.

One forum I frequent switched to Xenforo. Faster, better features, less bandwidth used, better search. I'd prefer Xenforo over a new search engine grafted onto vBulletin. 99.9% of the time, I just use Google.
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Old 02-17-2016, 01:51 PM   #9
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99.9% of the time, I just use Google.
Well...my point exactly! It seems like everybody uses google to search these forums efficiently...there's something wrong here! :-S
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Old 02-17-2016, 03:44 PM   #10
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Originally Posted by chumbo View Post
there's something wrong here! :-S
The codebase isn't there in Vbulletin and google is built on doing good searches. There is actually a reaper forum specific google link that you could just pin to your browser favorites bar which works far better than an internal search engine ever typically could but don't have it handy. It's similar to site:domain but still pretty darn easy because the page itself is a Reaper Forum Search.
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Old 02-17-2016, 04:50 PM   #11
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There is actually a reaper forum specific google link...It's similar to site:domain
Yes, I know, it's in my initial post, I just wasn't satisfied with it. But thx for the explanations.
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Old 02-17-2016, 06:03 PM   #12
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Originally Posted by citizenkeith View Post
I'm a little astounded that there are so many forums still running the old version of vBulletin. I'm concerned that the security issues of old software will bite us in the ass.
The new version seems to have way more security problems that the old...

Quote:
One forum I frequent switched to Xenforo. Faster, better features, less bandwidth used, better search. I'd prefer Xenforo over a new search engine grafted onto vBulletin. 99.9% of the time, I just use Google.
Those are the old Vbulletin devs who have left the building. Management doesn't seem to care.
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Old 02-17-2016, 07:22 PM   #13
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Originally Posted by chumbo View Post
Yes, I know, it's in my initial post, I just wasn't satisfied with it. But thx for the explanations.
I don't think the one I'm talking about is in your initial post though; that's what I meant by similar but not the same as site:domain. It's like a Google custom search page, not just the site trick alone. Likely the same at the end of the day but you only type the search term, not the extra stuff.
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Old 02-18-2016, 01:11 AM   #14
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Oh? Interesting! Never heard of that then. But still, like the other 'trick' of using site:forum.cockos.com (search terms), I was just hoping of getting rid of the extra steps of opening a new tab in my browser and going back and forth between forum pages and search pages + what I mentioned before, the annoyance that google only displays search results on the left half of the page (and even a 1/3 of the screen when using a wide monitor!), truncating the title of the search results so much that they are virtually meaningless! That's a major problem that really makes none of the searching solutions very efficient!

Karbomusic, even if you forgot where that webpage is, you can pretty much replicate what you're talking about by simply opening a google search using 'site:forum.cockos.com' and bookmarking it and placing it on your Chrome bookmark bar for ex. Then Ctrl+click the bookmark to automatically open it in a new tab and place your search terms.
That's the best solution I've come up with now.

The really weird thing is, it looks like the two other major search engines, Yahoo & Bing, are using google's search engine with a different skin?! I say that because they also only display results on that left 1/2 or 1/3 the page!? Strange nobody would try to offer something different.
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Old 02-18-2016, 01:32 AM   #15
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karbomusic, I looked into what you mentioned and is possible it was this?

https://cse.google.com/cse/publicurl...91:ltvxbejzi6q

(i've bookmarked this instead of the other 'trick' I mentioned in the post above, a bit cleaner to user)

This was easily created in a few clicks from this page:
https://cse.google.com/cse/create/new

It gives the option to also include a google search box on a website (I think you all know what I'm talking about, we've all seen that before, those 'powered by google' search boxes on webpages).
There too, a few clicks and you can download the code to incorporate in your website...would that be possible to easily implement?
I think that would really be the easiest, best solution available now.

Last edited by chumbo; 02-18-2016 at 07:06 AM.
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Old 02-18-2016, 06:10 AM   #16
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karbomusic, I looked into what you mentioned and is possible it was this?
That sure looks like what I remember.
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