Old 07-13-2010, 07:52 AM   #81
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try right click+drag on a bootcamped macbookpro.........very difficult



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Old 07-13-2010, 07:54 AM   #82
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Originally Posted by jmcecil View Post
no, I don't see the logic. Move operations with left/lasso are also part of the left click paradigm.
The logic is that it is impossible to accidentally select and move an object when lassoing with the right click.

What is the logic behind the left click as lasso, beside being what you are used to from using other software?

Also, other software often have dedicated tools for lassoing, and dedicated tool for moving, making it impossible to accidentally move stuff around when all one want is to select a bunch of stuff. Is it better? To some maybe, but not to me since having to switch tools for such simple task, when all I'd need is to switch mouse button, would only slow things down.
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Old 07-13-2010, 07:55 AM   #83
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asking a question here:

whats the minimum number of config files needed to pretty much recreate USER X's reaper on another system?

needed (as far as i have gathered from a quick look in resources folder):

REAPER.ini (general settings/prefs)
Reaper-kb.ini (custom key assignments)
Reaper-menu (toolbars appearance)

then anything in the 'MenuSets' folder for custom menus.

anything else?

--
because if there was a way of packing those up into one (ala zipped themes), and installing easily from within reaper itself, a new user could just grab the reaper flavour that suits them from the website/forum and off they go.
am sure this has been talked about before tho.
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Old 07-13-2010, 07:56 AM   #84
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Originally Posted by norbury brook View Post
try right click+drag on a bootcamped macbookpro.........very difficult



MC
lol ...

But, that's wrong for an entirely different reason and not to be put on the Cockos dudes and/or dudettes.
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Old 07-13-2010, 08:00 AM   #85
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Originally Posted by BenK-msx View Post
asking a question here:

whats the minimum number of config files needed to pretty much recreate USER X's reaper on another system?

needed (as far as i have gathered from a quick look in resources folder):

REAPER.ini (general settings/prefs)
Reaper-kb.ini (custom key assignments)
Reaper-menu (toolbars appearance)

then anything in the 'MenuSets' folder for custom menus.

anything else?

--
because if there was a way of packing those up into one (ala zipped themes), and installing easily from within reaper itself, a new user could just grab the reaper flavour that suits them from the website/forum and off they go.
am sure this has been talked about before tho.
That's a really good suggestion.
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Old 07-13-2010, 08:02 AM   #86
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Originally Posted by BenK-msx View Post
asking a question here:

whats the minimum number of config files needed to pretty much recreate USER X's reaper on another system?
Just take the whole /appdata/Roaming/REAPER directory with you. Everything is basically in there, including templates, save for custom skin data.

Or better yet, use the reaper utility to install to a USB key.
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Old 07-13-2010, 08:03 AM   #87
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Originally Posted by BenK-msx View Post
asking a question here:

whats the minimum number of config files needed to pretty much recreate USER X's reaper on another system?

needed (as far as i have gathered from a quick look in resources folder):

REAPER.ini (general settings/prefs)
Reaper-kb.ini (custom key assignments)
Reaper-menu (toolbars appearance)

then anything in the 'MenuSets' folder for custom menus.

anything else?

--
because if there was a way of packing those up into one (ala zipped themes), and installing easily from within reaper itself, a new user could just grab the reaper flavour that suits them from the website/forum and off they go.
am sure this has been talked about before tho.
Yeah, the ability to do that was what I was alluding to in one of my earlier posts. This would be helpful for some people, so I think it's a good idea. It's taken a step further in Spike Mullins suggestion via Tedwood.
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Old 07-13-2010, 08:04 AM   #88
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What is the logic behind the left click as lasso, beside being what you are used to from using other software?
You answered the question. When new people pick up Reaper they will left click + drag to select events. I've seen it three times in person. All three people had to RTFM to figure out how to select. It never occurred to me or to them to Right click + drag. I actually thought you couldn't do it for about 5 minutes.

We are discussing what a person who just wants to sit down and go will expect. The OP just wants to hit record and do some basic edits. I fall in that category as well. I just want to multi-arm, hit record and let her go. Then I want to come back and trim stuff. I was happy for the amount of customization available. I was dismayed at the amount of customization I had to do in order to do those simple operations.

Once in place, I do comp/loop recording. For me, Reaper is unusable for that. And, I consider that a basic function. I could be wrong. But, I don't think a regular musician who wants to sit down and record will even WANT to figure out WTF is going on with takes.
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Old 07-13-2010, 08:09 AM   #89
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I'd like to thank RHGraham (the OP) for having a conversation about this, rather than just posting "goodbye cruel world." It's really valuable to get feedback from people who are not having a good experience. I also want to repeat that I'm not trying to nitpick or invalidate the criticisms and issues that are being raised. Our goal is always to make using Reaper the best possible experience for all users.

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All I know is there was a time when I could click on a spot, drag across the section I wanted highlighted, and easily delete what was there. Without customizing anything.
Here is a comparison of the item context menu in 2.000 (left) vs 3.63 (right):



The action (cut selected area of items) is in just about the same place on the menu, and has the same shortcut -- the behavior here is really exactly the same, no customization required. Also, the current menu is slightly shorter than the old one. The surprise here is actually how similar the menus are!

So, my takeaway from this conversation is not that basic functions in Reaper have gotten more complex, or that Reaper has gotten harder to use. If there are other examples though, please let me know, because like I said I'm not trying to nitpick, just trying to understand.

Instead, what I think is that the rate of change itself is a downside for some users. I think seeing a long list of changes and new features posted week after week can create the impression that Reaper is more complicated and harder to use, but it really is just an impression, as far as I can tell.

It's still a totally valid criticism that the menus are too long. For Reaper v4 we will definitely be looking at some way to give users a choice of simple vs complex menus in detail or presentation. But again, this isn't something that has changed really, the menus in Reaper have always been long.
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Old 07-13-2010, 08:10 AM   #90
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What is the logic behind the left click as lasso, beside being what you are used to from using other software?
The logic is in using your index finger for selection like we do in just about every other aspect of life or human mechanics. When you dial the phone do you use you middle finger or your index finger? The mouse is an extension of the index finger which is why it was natural that left-click lasso became the default and why right click feels odd in this case.

You don't right click to select individual parts, why right click to select multiple parts? It's the kinda goofy Vegas thing where left click draws loop range and (in Vegas IIRC) the marquee requires a tool change.
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Old 07-13-2010, 08:12 AM   #91
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Yeah, the ability to do that was what I was alluding to in one of my earlier posts. This would be helpful for some people, so I think it's a good idea. It's taken a step further in Spike Mullins suggestion via Tedwood.
indeed - knew it wasn't a new idea, prob why its a good one!
i not such a fan of 'modes' tho however - as i doubt anyone would actually switch between modes in reality and could learn "basic reaper" and miss out on some no doubt handy stuff thats only in "advanced mode".

at least with prefs/setup its more personal, editing is set up this way or that way, visually its like this, setup for midi power users etc etc. no options missing its all there you'd just adopt someone elses workflow as a start point.

oh - look out i've got a car analogy! don't shut the lanes down on the highway and enforce speed limits etc. just let users drive customised vehicles down all 4 lanes as fast as they like.

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Old 07-13-2010, 08:14 AM   #92
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Not to diss the OP but sometimes I feel Reaper is not made for dumb ppl.
How ironic! You DO understand what I mean, don't you?

I use Reaper (after having used many other soft and hardware sequencers over the years) because it is stable and affordable, AND the developers are diligent and respectful to end users of their product.

As a matter of fact, on reading the many tributes to Reaper and it's devs, I would say emotions possibly play a greater role in the decision to use it, than intelligence!

BTW, ask anyone who works for NASA whether rubber O rings and basic maths are important. I hope I haven't lost you, have I?
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Old 07-13-2010, 08:18 AM   #93
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Not to diss the OP but sometimes I feel Reaper is not made for dumb ppl.
Not to diss you, but I'm wondering what you use instead then?
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Old 07-13-2010, 08:22 AM   #94
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We are discussing what a person who just wants to sit down and go will expect.
I think sometime the "sit down and go" way is conflicting with the "most efficient" way, and that's a perfect example of that.

For instance, Reaper is a tool-less environment, and this fact dictate(yes, dictate) a lot of how things get implemented. So, a piece of software that is tool oriented will, by the very definition of it, work in a different way than Reaper does; therefore the general convention theory doesn't apply.
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Old 07-13-2010, 08:25 AM   #95
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Music production can't be too simple.... you don't want to read the manual? Maybe you type with 2 fingers.... don't use reaper.

Exactly , dumb users can't use softwares , I don't understand why everyone has to use a computer, user friendly=useless.
kidding, hopefully...



In any case - and just for the record - you are contradicting yourself right there.
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Old 07-13-2010, 08:27 AM   #96
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The logic is in using your index finger for selection like we do in just about every other aspect of life or human mechanics. When you dial the phone do you use you middle finger or your index finger?
Well, phone here is a cordless affair with the dial button right on it, so I use my thumb actually. See, best tool for the job at hand.

BTW, most software who use left click to lasso also have a dedicated tool for doing so, so IMO, it can't apply to Reaper.
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Old 07-13-2010, 08:30 AM   #97
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Personal opinion here but when I first switched completely to REAPER from ProTools (only a few weeks ago actually), I really felt the right click lasso felt awkward. Now that I'm used to it, I actually prefer it (and I have used ProTools for twelve years).
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Old 07-13-2010, 08:36 AM   #98
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I think the problem with Reaper is, that there are now too many small features, too many small functions - I love them and think all of them are useful to one or the other user, but it progressively adds to the clutter.

My personal suggestion as part of a solution is, to nevber make the same function appear twice (or even more often) in diffrent menues.

If you get rid of double-entries, a lot of the clutter already dissappears.


Then: many of the small functions are 'power-user functions' and as such perhaps do not need a menu entry at all as the action might suffice.

And if the user needs it often, he still can add it to the menue(s) himself.
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Old 07-13-2010, 08:36 AM   #99
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I enjoy the way the mouse is handled as well; I don't like having to select a tool before I do something
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Old 07-13-2010, 08:38 AM   #100
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Can we somehow leave the dumb or not dumb rubbish behind finally?

I'd gladly switch draw marquee and draw time selection around, so marquee is on the left button. Maybe that would lead to me not looking as surprised when I try to right click marquee in other apps or the OS (which happens very often and seems like an indication that it's not totally outside human mechanics to marquee with the middle finger).

I couldn't start a marquee inside an item anymore without further ado, but then again, I could start dragging a time selection inside an item which seems more important to me.

Besides, how does this discussion fit with the OT?
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Old 07-13-2010, 08:42 AM   #101
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Besides, how does this discussion fit with the OT?
The OP didn't go into any specific details, so posters try to fill the very general idea of the thread with more specificity. I have no problem with that personally, why do you?

The posting of "this software is too complex, so I'm leaving" isn't very helpful in nature...
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Old 07-13-2010, 08:42 AM   #102
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I don't think it does fit, it's been de-railed accidentally.
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Old 07-13-2010, 08:44 AM   #103
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I enjoy the way the mouse is handled as well; I don't like having to select a tool before I do something
Yup.

D
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Old 07-13-2010, 08:45 AM   #104
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I'd like to thank RHGraham (the OP) for having a conversation about this, rather than just posting "goodbye cruel world." It's really valuable to get feedback from people who are not having a good experience.
Sorry for the bump (it's poor form), but I didn't want this specific response to get swamped: http://forum.cockos.com/showpost.php...2&postcount=89
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Old 07-13-2010, 08:46 AM   #105
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The OP didn't go into any specific details, so posters try to fill the very general idea of the thread with more specificity. I have no problem with that personally, why do you?

The posting of "this software is too complex, so I'm leaving" isn't very helpful in nature...

I'd be more interested, and think it would be more on topic to find examples of functions that have been easier to find in earlier versions than they are now. That's what the OP claimed, or let's say it's what I read out of it. If it is like that, I think these areas should be addressed.
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Old 07-13-2010, 08:47 AM   #106
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This forum is starting to feel more and more like the Cubase community...and this is not a good thing.

Why so many arsh comments...geez...to each their own for "bip" sake. Now this is my rant about you people! You know who you are.

Is someone going to flame me because I hate Fender guitars with a pation...I just can't stand them because there nothing that irritates me more than that forsaken single coil "quack" and the neck is as usable as a trimmed down baseball bat...especially the V shaped ones. There are out there a massive amount of people who don't agree with my opinion of Fender guitars...are they dumb or idiots...no. I just prefer to have something more sophisticated like a Carvin Customshop with switches and humbuckers with a 14" radius C shaped neck, all that with tone wood that is more high end than alder like walnut or koa for example...try and find a Fender with all that...that is not heavilly modified of course...which would kinda kill the purpose of paying the Fender premium. 2 humbuckers coiled tap middle position with inverted phase is very stratish and very close to the real thing, boost the treble with the active EQ and you are in Tele territory and that is good enough for me, many people would not be happy because they want THE Fender Strat or Tele sound.

Some older guitar player I know still uses a 4tracks recorder because this is what he knows and it works for him because he can concentrate on composition and not learning how to use a computer/daw...and he is a VERY good guitar player, because he is far from the techno dude it does not make him evil or something! And don't you dare tell him that he is unless you can say you can record a whole freeking jazz song in one take 2 times out of 3...he can!

If he doesn't like Reaper because he feels like it drives him away from music and he does not feel like taking the time to learn all of it is worthwhile...then so be it. He can move to Audition or Samplitude LE and just hit record and have a go, why does people feel so aggressive and defensive about Reaper because he finds it too complicated? Sweet geez some people need to chill in here...badly.

Please close this thread!!!!!
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Old 07-13-2010, 08:48 AM   #107
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The logic is in using your index finger for selection like we do in just about every other aspect of life or human mechanics. When you dial the phone do you use you middle finger or your index finger? The mouse is an extension of the index finger which is why it was natural that left-click lasso became the default and why right click feels odd in this case.

You don't right click to select individual parts, why right click to select multiple parts? It's the kinda goofy Vegas thing where left click draws loop range and (in Vegas IIRC) the marquee requires a tool change.
Yeah the first thing I tried with Reaper was the CTRL+Left click + Drag. Then ALT, then Shift, then CTRL+ALT etc...

I could see that Left Click would be select only, but would have never figured out that Lasso select wasn't in some way tied to the left click by a accelerator.

But again, it isn't that one thing. It is the totality of little things.
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Old 07-13-2010, 08:53 AM   #108
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Instead, what I think is that the rate of change itself is a downside for some users. I think seeing a long list of changes and new features posted week after week can create the impression that Reaper is more complicated and harder to use, but it really is just an impression, as far as I can tell.
Agreed but I think you and others underestimate/discount the role that "impression" plays in this dynamic. The bottom line is that impression is everything! Not just first impressions, but impressions overall. Impressions are related to belief systems that over time, in this case with Reaper's fast evolution, become reinforced. Obviously this can be positive or negative but this thread is obviously exploring the negative aspect of this. Highly paid social psychologists work with marketing firms to exploit this to the masses in very sophisticated ways and most of us don't even know its going on.

That said, I can personally relate to the frustration/confusion that can come from encountering the sheer amount of options that Reaper offers. I also acknowledge that there are many others that actually "get off" on those options and that is fine. But calling somebody dumb because they experience this software in a frustrating way is simply bullshit and speaks volumes about a person's lack of maturity and integrity.
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Old 07-13-2010, 08:55 AM   #109
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If he doesn't like Reaper because he feels like it drives him away from music and he does not feel like taking the time to learn all of it is worthwhile...then so be it. He can move to Audition or Samplitude LE and just hit record and have a go, why does people feel so aggressive and defensive about Reaper because he finds it too complicated? Sweet geez some people need to chill in here...badly.

Please close this thread!!!!!
The OP was happy with his early Reaper version, if that has changed, because the current reaper drives him away from the music side of his brain, I think this is a bad sign. I don't agree with "so be it", but think we should find the areas that actually make that change.
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Old 07-13-2010, 08:56 AM   #110
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Please close this thread!!!!!
Now it feels like a Cubase or KVR thread! HURRAY

It's fine to agree or disagree. But, there doesn't have to be name calling and general rudeness.

IMO the OP has a valid point. I went through, and in some areas still trying to figure out, the Reaper way. I think I'd be safe to say that many try the demo and are put off immediately. You may say FINE!!! SCREW THE MORONS!!! But, what if the initial experience was better for more people? Why would anyone have a problem with that?

Schwa has done a good job of trying to focus the discussion. If something useful comes from the conversation great, if not at least we had the opportunity.
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Old 07-13-2010, 08:59 AM   #111
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I like the suggestion of menu templates, that would give everyone the option of defining swappable command sets. Come to think of it, why not just provide templates for every new feature added to Reaper, it's usually where we end up anyway.
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Old 07-13-2010, 09:02 AM   #112
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still don't get the point of this thread, sorry

what's the problem at restaurant if the menu is 35 pages long when I perfectly know from the start that I want scrambled eggs with beans and potatoes, not bbq sauce pls?
is the larger choice a real issue stopping me from order my fav plate or it would be a nice opportunity in my hands?
and maybe I would really appreciate any further suggestion from the chief when I'll get bored of scrambled eggs one day...

and when I'll have discovered some new plates I like more, it will be a matter of seconds to place my order the next time.

is the reaper menu design a problem? yesterday I had to mix a song on cubase and it was a pita, even if I used to mix on it for ages.
grouping, applying efx, create midi tracks, etc.
and I dont mean reaper is easier out of the box than cubase (name it) or viceversa, they both have different workflows and anyone have to spend a few time to fully (or partly) discover them.

not to mention that a "simplify the menus" feature would be an impossible task for the devs given the different learning curves/attitudes of any single user....
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Old 07-13-2010, 09:45 AM   #113
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If he doesn't like Reaper because he feels like it drives him away from music and he does not feel like taking the time to learn all of it is worthwhile...then so be it. He can move to Audition or Samplitude LE and just hit record and have a go, why does people feel so aggressive and defensive about Reaper because he finds it too complicated? Sweet geez some people need to chill in here...badly.

Please close this thread!!!!!
You know the difference here is that he posted his discontent and intent to leave on a public forum that's supports the object of his issue. That kind of action isn't really aimed at being helpful to anyone nor is it designed to seek out any help for himself. He can certainly move to whatever production software he chooses, but there is no constructive reason to publicly announce it. So if it comes with a little heat, so be it.

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Old 07-13-2010, 09:57 AM   #114
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Of course it is helpful for a company to get to know why clients are leaving. I don't have the feeling he opened this thread to make a drama, but to try to tell Cockos what he feels is wrong.

I don't see a reason to switch to either defending or dissing mode.
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Old 07-13-2010, 10:35 AM   #115
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So I'm actually not the only one who sees that?
Nope, a lot of folks see this.....


Quote:
Originally Posted by Skamm Goodiez View Post
Not to diss the OP but sometimes I feel Reaper is not made for dumb ppl.
And this is one of the reasons that these forums are getting a bad rep. Like so many others that post something on here, there is always one that thinks they are "smarter"....it's sad.

I have called Reaper "The Linux of DAW's" for awhile now. It has problems, just like any other DAW. The DIFFERENCE is that if it is brought up on the threads or in a FR then it more than likely will get addressed by either the powers that be, or one of the HELPFUL users...and THAT is what makes Reaper what it is, or is not, in the view of a lot of people.

The ones who have responded with honest, helpful, and REAL questions & tips are to be applauded, you are the ones keeping Reaper afloat in the eyes of the folks that visit.

As for my "standard" comment, let's take the OP's deleting comment. The last 3 versions of Reaper I have downloaded worked like this...

1. Select the part you want to remove

2. Remove it

3. all the parts slide together, messing up the length of the track UNLESS I play with the ripple editing....which is buried in the menus somewhere....

And as a final note in this thread, I feel the same way as the OP, and do use other software. But I keep coming back to try Reaper on every other .0 release just to see what is new. I do think Reaper has a solid future, and I also think that it is driving away folks BECAUSE of it's flexibility.

People are not dumb or stupid, they just want to get work done is all, and the default Reaper setup is in some ways a hindrance to this....just an IMHO post, just like anyone else's....
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Old 07-13-2010, 10:39 AM   #116
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I have only used Reaper for about a week, and I think I have said it in every post so far: Make ReaMenus the default, particularly if you want to attract new users.

That said I think Reaper is very promising. Yes, there are incredibly many things it can do on the most basic levels, so just choose the functions that suit you and forget the rest. Time after time I have come across functions I have wanted in Cubase for years. Things that help my workflow. Three more or less random examples: 1. Just clicking on the take I want to audition, instead of going through a lot of mute/unmute. 2. Making track templates from complete folders with all kinds of tracks and instruments (not possible in Cubase) so that I can just set up a project using a number of track templates. 3. Editing automation just the way I always wanted to, like lifting a line, adjusting the whole curve with a fader etc.

I think the whole thing is very well thought out. Although there is a lot to learn, it all works in a way that feels natural to me. Cubase has always felt clunky, I have just got used to its strange behavior over the years. The only basic functions I miss in Reaper are the the tools (scissor, eraser etc. ) that I can use in Cubase with the mouse while the song is playing. Hence I can cut, mute etc. while the song keeps looping.
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Old 07-13-2010, 10:39 AM   #117
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Quote:
Originally Posted by matey View Post
is the larger choice a real issue stopping me from order my fav plate

yes, of course it is if you don't know where the fuck it is in that damned overcrowded menue... *


you open it and quickly go through the pages - two times - nada - the third time you finally find it - it's close to the bottom of page three in the 'starters' section where you didn't expect it so you just overlooked it at first...





*for your analogy to actually work we must neccessarily assume that it is an electronic menue where you need to push a button in order to order.
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Old 07-13-2010, 10:50 AM   #118
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Quote:
Originally Posted by matey View Post
what's the problem at restaurant if the menu is 35 pages long when I perfectly know from the start that I want scrambled eggs with beans and potatoes, not bbq sauce pls?
But how do you know your order is even on the menu? Unless you've already become very familiar with it?

Besides, when the likes of Gordon Ramsey goes in to 'save' struggling restaurants, one of the things he often does is streamline the menu - the suggestion being that less choice = better business!
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Old 07-13-2010, 11:07 AM   #119
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But how do you know your order is even on the menu? Unless you've already become very familiar with it?
I ask to the restaurant's forum...
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Old 07-13-2010, 11:11 AM   #120
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Originally Posted by Smurf View Post
And this is one of the reasons that these forums are getting a bad rep.
Dynamically changing applications like Reaper seem to depend on the user forum to keep users up to date on changes and to get feedback with regard to whether these are working for the majority - a great pity imo.

I personally would rather not need to wade through comments such as that posted by Skamm Goodiez to keep up to date with this app or to offer feedback - his insulting slap at the OP should have been moderated.

I pointed out to Goodiez, in a way which a clever guy like him would obviously get, that emotions and basic thought processes are perhaps even more important in using a DAW than sheer intelligence - a reason to give the original post more consideration.

Some of the sanctimonious crap which followed was not at all helpful in keeping the issue focussed.
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