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Old 11-01-2019, 08:02 AM   #401
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Originally Posted by Gass n Klang View Post

In my last recording I did 5 takes with 2 different singers at the same time. One of them did 3 further takes alone and the other one did just 2 more. So 8 vs 7 takes. In a playlist system with grouped tracks, both singers had 8 playlists but the last one of the second singer was empty. So no problems with skipping through the takes they did simultaneously. With take system you always have to work around these kind of things.
Man, I'm sorry, I just do not see the problem here. You've got 2 tracks, once for each singer, a looped section and each track has 8 takes in lanes... but one is blank where the second singer didn't do anything on the 8th take.

Ok, when you come back to audition/edit them, ... When *I* come back I listen through, slice where there is an obvious mistake/section that is bad, do that one at a time for the 15 takes... then select what I want.

Or if you want to commit as you go, you can drag to the keeper track for each singer.

I cannot fathom a more straightforward method or an advantage having a playlist; if it's to come back and change the "keeper", you can either drag out the dragged over parts from the takes so they "reveal" the part you want, or vice versa you can drag back over what you don't want...

Or pull over from the takes lane. You don't have to delete the original takes.

Sorry, I'm not seeing the problem playlists solve or makes better...

/ Stanford and Binet is letting me down here, ahrgh....
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Old 11-01-2019, 08:02 AM   #402
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That’s exactly what I’ve been saying since ages. Assume you have performances that vary a lot. Then this take system fails miserably. You have cuts on positions where you don’t want them.
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Old 11-01-2019, 08:03 AM   #403
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How do you suggest an "area selection" workflow would help with avoiding micro-inappropriate splits with an area covering multiple tracks ?

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Old 11-01-2019, 09:00 AM   #404
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My problem with your method is that I use the visual differences in each take as a way of remembering/identifying it. Having to flip through them negates that.
So do I (we all aren't really 'that' different, it's the same basic needed result for decades)... Holding the T or Shift T is lightening fast - I know what you are saying but in reality it's not the hold up it seems. That's why I demonstrate with so many takes, if it can be done efficiently with 64, it can be done with 10.

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...and I don't ever have 64 takes, maybe 5-6 tops, so ... I just keep it onscreen, and just slice up/active take it.
Me either, those were created based on threads and discussions here - it's still better collapsed once used to it. But that takes me to the big rift that always exists...

1. This a discussion about what people are used to.
2. This is a discussion about being as efficient as any other method.

Cannot discuss/conflate both at the same time even if both are legit - they should be identified and discussed separately.

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My methodology is to go through 1 pass and chop out what I know is NOT a keeper, which leaves me a jigsaw puzzle that I then come back and decide what is the comp - so the visual depiction of what is available makes it easier to go "oh yeah, that bit right there was the best part" instead of having to flip to it and listen again to get my bearings.
Based on what needs to be done, I start with take one, hit play, as soon as something sucks, I split, T to next take till there is a good candidate, rinse repeat. When I get to the end of the section, I may need a spot check iteration but otherwise I'm then done. If there are any timing issues, I can alt-drag that split item to fix them as I go because alt-drag is per take.

If comps which I rarely need, then it's just a matter of a couple more iterations and saving those as new takes at the bottom of the stack and coloring them so I know those are virtual comps. There are several methods to accomplish comps that's just one I use when I need them also..

Playlists/track versions are more akin to reaper's comps - comps are a component of assembling now-edited takes, so 'part' of the take system but not the take system as a whole, those also should be indicated, separated and defined during discussions because editing takes and assembling comps of those takes are two entirely different things.
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Old 11-01-2019, 09:13 AM   #405
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Your technique works well as long as the musical material within different takes is the same. Not in my case where every take is different and splits cut through phrases. Or in situations where music doesnt follow any fix click at all.
I might have to disagree a little, I'm a musician/engineer who records musicians and myself, often improvised, sometimes not, and most of the time there is no grid or click at all and the material from take to take is not the same - it's about exactly what you posted above in many cases - that is why I made the comment "send me them takes, I'll be done in a jiffy" - I wasn't being a smarty pants, it was because what you posted is very close to what I do.

I hope we can all keep our "engineers helping engineers" hats on - I know these threads get heated but there is no reason I post in these threads other than to help others out to be successful... and to try to maintain accuracy when some embellish (aka thread title).
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Old 11-01-2019, 01:57 PM   #406
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I might have to disagree a little, I'm a musician/engineer who records musicians and myself, often improvised, sometimes not, and most of the time there is no grid or click at all and the material from take to take is not the same - it's about exactly what you posted above in many cases - that is why I made the comment "send me them takes, I'll be done in a jiffy" - I wasn't being a smarty pants, it was because what you posted is very close to what I do.
I've been in film scoring for 20 years now. There's no way to do the kind of editing that needs to be done in that world without the ability of having independent takes. I'm not saying you're not an old hat at what you do. I'm sure you are. But the way the Reaper takes system currently functions only works for what I call "hack and slash" editing. In other words, pretty quick basic editing.

That just doesn't cut it in the film and classical world where the editing is very advanced and complex. Pro Tools is the current standard, but honestly there's a lot of old school editors that think even Pro Tools is too simplistic and prefer the Sonic Solutions model. And considering how much more advanced the Pro Tools model is in terms of takes and comping vs Reaper, it really shows how far behind Reaper really is in this regard (also one of the reasons it gets so many complaints by advanced editors).

Yes, you can do basic comping pretty easy. That's not what the people above are trying to do. The only way to do very advanced and complex editing is if takes have the option of being independent from one another. Sometimes a take will have completely different material, or very different start/end times, or different crossfade types on either side across takes, or one with a slightly timestretched tail for a more natural edit or fade out. And when you are on a scoring stage with a room full of musicians where it costs 20K and hour to record, it also needs to be done incredibly quickly. There just isn't a way currently to do any of that with the Reaper takes system.
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Old 11-01-2019, 02:18 PM   #407
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I've been in film scoring for 20 years now. There's no way to do the kind of editing that needs to be done in that world without the ability of having independent takes. I'm not saying you're not an old hat at what you do. I'm sure you are. But the way the Reaper takes system currently functions only works for what I call "hack and slash" editing. In other words, pretty quick basic editing.
I only address workflows I work with on a regular basis - film scoring is not one of them and the reason you will likely not see my posting replies in a single thread concerning film scoring (or MIDI workflows for that matter) - but when it's an audio workflow I do engage in and I see something that doesn't add up, I bring it up, they may not be as complex as film but they are often anything but basic or hack and slash.

So I'll stand where I always have - for certain end-results that people need, the current system will get those results as fast and efficiently as most any other workflow (where I agree track versions are a great addition to comps) - For the ones that don't fit those criteria, I don't even reply. Glass n Klangs example is not an advanced complex editing job, it's 15 minutes and 14 of those are playback/auditioning (I made those numbers up but you get the point). I can do what he wants very quickly, I've done it for years, and it didn't take years to learn - it was more like a lightbulb moment TBH.
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Old 11-01-2019, 02:29 PM   #408
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@karbomusic Yep totally get it. I just wanted to point out that for things like film scoring, classical record editing and ADR, Reaper's takes system falls pretty short. So, whether one user can do a task faster or more efficiently doesn't remove the actual shortcomings. I think the biggest issue is that there just isn't any kind of viable alternative - for independent takes or for not splitting across takes. Probably why this is such a hot topic that pops up so often across the forums.
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Old 11-01-2019, 02:44 PM   #409
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@karbomusic Yep totally get it. I just wanted to point out that for things like film scoring, classical record editing and ADR, Reaper's takes system falls pretty short. So, whether one user can do a task faster or more efficiently doesn't remove the actual shortcomings. I think the biggest issue is that there just isn't any kind of viable alternative - for independent takes or for not splitting across takes. Probably why this is such a hot topic that pops up so often across the forums.
I agree with your sentiment - when the task at hand can be accomplished as fast and efficiently with equal chances of error, and that's not enough, I have a true mental block as to the problem. Again, when that is the case, not speaking of film et al here. Maybe it will hit me one day and I'll understand. From an end-to-end standpoint, I don't have any objections though, and there are plenty of takes systems asks I agree with.

When it truly can't be done as easily, is more error prone and/or slower, then of course, but one thing I run into, is people sometimes get terribly hung up on the steps they are taking, and forget about the actual result they want (no one in particular, it's a general observation).
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Old 11-01-2019, 03:11 PM   #410
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When it truly can't be done as easily, is more error prone and/or slower, then of course, but one thing I run into, is people sometimes get terribly hung up on the steps they are taking, and forget about the actual result they want (no one in particular, it's a general observation).
Yep this can be an issue. Especially when there are so many different ways to do a thing - such is Reaper. I can say with a great deal of confidence though in this case, it's not a steps issue. Even some of the more advanced scripts (such as Sexan's Playlist script) can't address many of the use cases for more advanced editing work using the current takes system. Obviously whether that justifies changes or additions to the current system is not up to me, but given the amount of users complaining and struggling, I think it does merit a look by the developers. There's a large discussion going on currently in the feature request threads if anyone wants to chime in there.

https://forum.cockos.com/showthread.php?t=225527
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Old 11-01-2019, 03:14 PM   #411
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Yep this can be an issue. Especially when there are so many different ways to do a thing - such is Reaper. I can say with a great deal of confidence though in this case, it's not a steps issue. Even some of the more advanced scripts (such as Sexan's Playlist script) can't address many of the use cases for more advanced editing work using the current takes system. Obviously whether that justifies changes or additions to the current system is not up to me, but given the amount of users complaining and struggling, I think it does merit a look by the developers. There's a large discussion going on currently in the feature request threads if anyone wants to chime in there.

https://forum.cockos.com/showthread.php?t=225527
I know that's not an invite for me but I can't participate in that thread because I love splits, in every way for multiple reasons and they are not messy to me, and I'm not kidding. Splits are a major feature of most of my take editing workflows - there are secrets/tips to the advantages but that ship has sailed.
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Old 11-01-2019, 03:21 PM   #412
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I know that's not an invite for me but I can't participate in that thread because I love splits
It's an invite to everyone. This is already an 11 page thread LOL.
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Old 11-01-2019, 03:27 PM   #413
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It's an invite to everyone. This is already an 11 page thread LOL.
No can do I can provide no value there because I prefer the splits - they are a huge advantage for me and I know how to work with them in a non-messy way without scripts and so on. Sincere best of luck though.
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Old 11-01-2019, 05:33 PM   #414
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The take system is one reason among others why I've just gone back to my previous software (in my case Samplitude).

I pretty much 100% agree with the OP.

I like Reaper, but at the moment only for mixing. I really don't like having to "fight" the software when recording and editing.

And..having read this whole thread...some of you guys seem to think everything's perfect and the take system is fine. Well, you're not helping.

Let's rather agree it needs a bit of work, instead of people talking down on others because we don't want to do extra workarounds that are pretty much unnecessary wastes of time, when the whole system could be better.

Oh well, that's my 2 cents.

Sorry, but some of the people in this thread come across as a little bit arrogant and condescending - probably don't mean to, but instead of being negative, let's rather agree on good solutions.
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Old 11-01-2019, 05:45 PM   #415
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And..having read this whole thread...some of you guys seem to think everything's perfect and the take system is fine. Well, you're not helping.
It's actually helped a lot of people and most of us have gone out of our way to not say anything was perfect - Don't pretend everyone who initially hates it stays that way - that would be terribly inaccurate. Feel free to air your grievances, that's fair, but let's try to stay accurate. I'm sure I sound condescending, and no it isn't meant that way - I gave up tap dancing trying to keep everyone happy years ago, I can't win either way.
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Old 11-01-2019, 06:16 PM   #416
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Yep - the take system for complex tracking pushes me go to go ProTools where it is elegant, simple and works.
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Old 11-01-2019, 07:13 PM   #417
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1. This a discussion about what people are used to.
You keep saying that, but it’s not. I think the OP went out of his way to avoid that, as have many others in this thread (me included).
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Old 11-01-2019, 07:46 PM   #418
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You keep saying that, but it’s not. I think the OP went out of his way to avoid that, as have many others in this thread (me included).
It is both. I say it because I deal with it where people literally state it (including this thread). Note what I described... there were two discussions that occur in general (and they do) and we want to be specific when discussing which so we don't have one person discussing one and the other etc., because it's farking confusing.... do it for clarity. I'm not talking about any one person when suggesting that clarification. Just because plenty of you don't doesn't negate the ones who do. This is like herding cats LOL.
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Old 11-01-2019, 08:44 PM   #419
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This is a long ass thread. OP might wanna updated the OP with some of these suggestions if they're any good (been over a year). Highly doubt devs are reading every post here and it's clearly something a lot of people are interested in improving...
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Old 11-01-2019, 08:47 PM   #420
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Glass n Klangs example is not an advanced complex editing job, it's 15 minutes and 14 of those are playback/auditioning (I made those numbers up but you get the point). I can do what he wants very quickly, I've done it for years, and it didn't take years to learn - it was more like a lightbulb moment TBH.
well, it didn't take me hours to cut that thing I think I'm quite fast at editing (I have to as I make a living from it). This simple example just annoyed me 'cause I had to rearrange the solo. So phrases changed positions. I had to see and listen if the transitions went well and rebuild the whole solo part. So listening took quite a bit of time. copy and pasting the "take packages" gets the whole thing quite messy cause you'll have the same material on different places (e.g. take 3 of snippet A in the beginning and take 5 of the same snippet A in the end). That's why I want a system where I don't have to edit the source material itself. I want to stay on top of things, which phrase got where. Yes in this case it was just 2 tracks and a few takes. I did some choir recording with 28 mics and 30 takes. You don't want to handle these kind of things walking through the split hell or using "keeper tracks"...
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Old 11-02-2019, 02:45 AM   #421
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well, it didn't take me hours to cut that thing
Makes sense.
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Old 11-02-2019, 08:20 AM   #422
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Is there any other well stabilished take system which differs and could benefit reaper? Pro tools is one. Which others?
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Old 11-02-2019, 09:38 AM   #423
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Is there any other well stabilished take system which differs and could benefit reaper? Pro tools is one. Which others?
SONAR had/has some takes features that I miss. You could get it to loop automatically over a slice containing several takes so that you can cycle through the takes and listen to all of them without having to stop and re-start playback. That was nice.

But mostly I don't have huge problems with Reaper's take system. I mostly use it for vocal and instrumental solo comping. The automatic cuts are annoying, but it's easy to slide the cuts around to where you want them to fit the takes you want. After reading Karbo's posts above I wrote a compound command to select a take, duplicate it to the bottom of the stack, and then lock it. That's going to help.
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Old 11-02-2019, 03:32 PM   #424
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SONAR had/has some takes features that I miss. You could get it to loop automatically over a slice containing several takes so that you can cycle through the takes and listen to all of them without having to stop and re-start playback. That was nice.
There's two ways to do this. I asked the same question awhile back and got this:

https://forum.cockos.com/showthread.php?t=168886

There's also a script you can link to a toolbar button that does the same thing in one click. I want to say I got hipped to it through Jon at Reaper Blog, but I can't remember. Might need to get ReaPack involved. The name of the script is: JamesHE_Audtion Takes of Selected items.eel

Can't help with the rest!

I don't really have much problem with the takes system either, although I don't have much experience outside of Reaper. It's better than my limited work in Cubase 5, as I recall, despite the chunkiness. I do understand some of the complaints though, what with the mess you end up with lanes and snippets of takes and all. I have had some luck with Karbo's technique of viewing/editing one take at a time, but that only works with some of my material. Just my 2 cents.

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Old 11-02-2019, 07:55 PM   #425
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ive had similar issues with reapers take system but gotten round it.

simply by using punch in/out style recordin, that way every record is exactly the same length, im not sure if this is really a problem. how else is reaper suppose to deal with recordings on the same track that are not the same legnth as the already recording material....
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Old 11-02-2019, 10:46 PM   #426
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how else is reaper suppose to deal with recordings on the same track that are not the same legnth as the already recording material....
By giving the user the option to not split takes by default would be a good start. Especially for midi where you then have to heal any midi notes that get split. Not elegant by any means.
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Old 11-20-2019, 06:05 PM   #427
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This way of comping is so easy
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VBqP5VZZvZ8
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Old 11-20-2019, 06:26 PM   #428
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Thanks for calling comps comps! I watched the video, just an FYI that comping thing he's talking about is very close to the same thing as reaper, they just put the splits on its own track layer - in reaper you do the same thing in all honesty, but you are doing it all on one "layer" but that layer looks exactly like that top comp layer in S1 and Reaper's version of hiding the layers is CTRL+L for example.

Where he's "promoting" a clip, I'm just splitting and clicking T or Shift T which is the same thing, just on one track layer. I want think it possibly is easier on the eyes to have it floating vertically on top like that though vs reaper with them stacked front to back with CTRL+L - I'm kind of of the fence about that though.

I suppose what I'm saying makes more sense in a picture - Top is S1 comp of a few takes and layers hidden, bottom is Reaper with a comp of a few takes with layers hidden:

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Old 11-21-2019, 01:47 AM   #429
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There's one quite important difference: in S1 you don't destroy your source data. You can always listen to all the takes you did without any trouble. Second point: without splits it's much more convenient for non click based music.
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Old 12-03-2019, 06:03 PM   #430
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helloooo everyone. This thread has definitely helped me understand how to use the take system to my advantage, thanks to all who have contributed. I am pretty comfortable with it now.

But there is one situation in which the takes with it's automatic splits etc really makes things messy for me, so I'll point it out and maybe I could get some suggestions from you:

After recording, there will be takes and comps and splits, etc. When it's time to mix down, I'm editing the takes/comps further trimming away silence, breaths, etc. I end up with a track(s) full of little item pieces. Then I mix down, yada yada. I keep everything non-destructive, at least I want to. Just in case I ever need to go back, I still have all the takes, etc. The issue is, 3 months later a client comes back and wants to re-record verse 1. Doing a new take over the edited "pieces" creates one huge mess (consider that, the artist wants to CHANGE the 1st verse now! So I can't just replace like for like) that is not easy to clean up.

Given that: I still want and need to keep all items non-destructive and available (no gluing), I do not want to duplicate tracks/hide tracks (due to processing power mostly and organization)....what's a nice, elegant way of doing this?
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Old 12-03-2019, 08:42 PM   #431
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I don't know if it helps but being a new followup session... I have a shortcut/button that duplicates the track with everything but the items on it to a new track under it and I record the followup session takes there. I prefer new sessions on new tracks most of the time, depending of course. Then I edit the new takes into the original track as needed. but before that...

Being a follow up session, which makes it literally a different session... right before it starts I'm going to File > Save new version of project so that no matter what happens the previous session(s) are always 100% intact as they were at the end of that session. You can always open a previous session in a new tab and copy tracks/items over in either direction if for some weird reason you mop yourself into a corner. Those advantages are across the board though, not just about takes.

Edit: Sorry I didn't see the no duplicate tracks thing so probably no help, just one of my organizational habits to do post-edit followup sessions that way (temporary duplicate track and/or new project version).
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Old 12-04-2019, 03:06 AM   #432
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Yes. I agree with the OP. The takes system is the weakest point of Reaper.
Its a obscure and complex workflow totally different of the rest of DAWs. That's a bad sign: no body want to copy it.
I've tried to use it many times and I invest a lot of time to learn how it works, but I always finish with a messy puzzle of splits in any recording session.
That workflow push me to don't use reaper for recording, just for editing and mixing.
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Old 12-04-2019, 04:34 AM   #433
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Originally Posted by karbomusic View Post
I don't know if it helps but being a new followup session... I have a shortcut/button that duplicates the track with everything but the items on it to a new track under it and I record the followup session takes there. I prefer new sessions on new tracks most of the time, depending of course. Then I edit the new takes into the original track as needed. but before that...

Being a follow up session, which makes it literally a different session... right before it starts I'm going to File > Save new version of project so that no matter what happens the previous session(s) are always 100% intact as they were at the end of that session. You can always open a previous session in a new tab and copy tracks/items over in either direction if for some weird reason you mop yourself into a corner. Those advantages are across the board though, not just about takes.

Edit: Sorry I didn't see the no duplicate tracks thing so probably no help, just one of my organizational habits to do post-edit followup sessions that way (temporary duplicate track and/or new project version).
I do the same thing. I have 2 shortcuts. On duplicates the track with everything except the media items and another dupicates all. It's the cleanest way for me to do this kind of thing.
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Old 12-04-2019, 11:06 AM   #434
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I do the same thing. I have 2 shortcuts. On duplicates the track with everything except the media items and another dupicates all. It's the cleanest way for me to do this kind of thing.
hey thanks for the replies. yes I do these already: I have the same duplicate action, I think I learned it from one of you! And I also will save the project as a new iteration when absolutely necessary.

The issue with duplicating is that, when I've already mixed the project I'm at the far end of processing power already. Duplicating the track with it's plugins and PDC can cripple that project, it then means freezing tracks and other workflow killers. Saving as a new iteration will take up space and make my folders messy. Also and most important, what happens more often than not: the artist says "I just want to fix one line", which then turns into fixing the whole verse or more....which sometimes means what they just did wasn't as good as the original.

I know, these are minuscule complaints (not really complaints), just trying to fine tune things in a way to make both going forward AND going backward easier/faster.
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Old 12-04-2019, 11:28 AM   #435
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I have hit that end of the project ceiling once or twice - one of the gotchas in general is that far in, after mixing and editing a lot - going back and enabling record arm causes additional CPU overhead and can go over the edge - Also, outside of takes, if I get to that point, then I'm disabling some stuff temporarily so I can re-track. I suppose a temporary freeze would work in these scenarios but I've never actually used freeze LOL.
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Old 12-04-2019, 11:39 AM   #436
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I have hit that end of the project ceiling once or twice - one of the gotchas in general is that far in, after mixing and editing a lot - going back and enabling record arm causes additional CPU overhead and can go over the edge - Also, outside of takes, if I get to that point, then I'm disabling some stuff temporarily so I can re-track. I suppose a temporary freeze would work in these scenarios but I've never actually used freeze LOL.
Oh yea, I have another custom action that selects all tracks and disables FX on all tracks before I can record...otherwise there's just now way. Ideally I would disable fx, record a new take, and enable Fx again and the project would be done again. With a dup track I can get issues with playback because of the extra processing (which also can affect rendering it seems). Again, just minor stuff...
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Old 12-04-2019, 11:44 AM   #437
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Well you are all over it then! I still think of you every time a band mate calls me by my K-Dub nickname LOL.

Take care.
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Old 12-04-2019, 01:29 PM   #438
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K-Dubb forever! cheers dude!
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Old 12-09-2019, 01:51 PM   #439
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I was pretty disappointed that v6 didn't have any changes to the Take System. It's the only part of Reaper that is totally unworkable for me.

Has cockos acknowledged this thread, or made any hints about improvements? I've become such a fan of this software, and it seems inexplicable that they could be satisfied with the current take system.

Thanks all!
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Old 12-09-2019, 02:23 PM   #440
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I was pretty disappointed that v6 didn't have any changes to the Take System.
As we’ve seen in the past, new features can be added at anytime. More new features were added to v5 in successive updates than the initial version.

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Has cockos acknowledged this thread, or made any hints about improvements?
If you do an advanced search on this specific thread, you can search and see that Justin has replied a few times to this thread. Here’s his first post:
https://forum.cockos.com/showthread....19#post2042919
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