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Old 08-24-2020, 04:28 PM   #41
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copying a few thoughts I posted in the Area Selection Discussion thread over to here:

I don't love the direction that the change to "Razor Edits" seems to indicate. A big part of the appeal of area selection for me has always been that it had the potential to streamline most of the things I currently do with time and/or item selections into a single selection method and make editing faster and more intuitive. Right now, razor edits do the opposite of that. It makes editing even more complex by adding another selection type that's only good for a few specific operations. Having to use one type of selection to make some changes, then switch to a different type of selection for other changes is a real drag to me. I could see this type of thing making sense in a tool based workflow like some people have asked for, but it doesn't make sense to me given Reaper's tool-less paradigm.

I know their were a lot of issues raised with the previous proposal of merging time and area selections (particularly around losing non-contiguous selections)but I thought that even if that specific proposal had problems, the overall intent behind it was good: let area selection inherit all the behavior and capabilities of time selection for those who want that, while still maintaining the old time selection behavior. I hope things can move back towards that idea. Razor edits don't necessarily preclude this, but it would mean that every action that uses time selection bounds would need a new duplicate version that used the razor edit bounds instead.

I'm also not liking the visual changes that were made to AS. The dotted outline with no fill color is way too subtle. I like to sit with my head about 3-4 feet back from the computer screen and at that distance I'm finding it difficult to see the selection at a glance. I have to lean in towards the screen if I really want to be sure of where the selection borders are. I don't hate the stripes that appear when you drag, but I also don't love them, and I'm confused about why the source area is given so much more visual prominence than the destination.
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Old 08-24-2020, 05:09 PM   #42
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I don't have a problem with the new striped box, except that I think the box contents should become visible behind the stripes as soon as the user lets go of the mouse button at the end of their razor box selection. Currently I get a stripey box with the contents obscured until the mouse is placed in the razor box and a drag initiated (even if the razor box doesn't move).

I'd also like to add my voice to the opinion that the Marquee and Razor selection triggers seem more logical the other way around (inside vs outside the item), although I'm more comfortable with modifiers to choose this still.

Razor edit copy drag doesn't work unless you press the Ctrl modifier before you start dragging. I'm sure this used to be pressable after the drag started, turning a "move" into a "copy" mid-drag.


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Old 08-24-2020, 06:08 PM   #43
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Originally Posted by Sexan View Post
To bring up most popular discussion how area selection is voodoo and many users (beginners mostly) will not understand it and will need to learn how it works...
How naming this Razor Edit will help that?
I would not search for it so how would the beginners? Whats wrong with Area?
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Old 08-24-2020, 06:36 PM   #44
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Also concerned that "Razor Edits" now roadblocks the progression of Area Selection into manipulating envelopes in the Area51 way:



We will never get the above with Time Selection, it's specifically an Area Selection thing, and the conversion to Razor Edits seems to block out those (and many other!) things from ever happening.

Trimming multiple envelopes is another HUGE thing that ProTools is amazing at, again an "Area" thing.

Just concerned we'll end up with another 3/4-baked concept like Automation Items
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Old 08-24-2020, 06:37 PM   #45
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Also concerned that "Razor Edits" now roadblocks the progression of Area Selection into manipulating envelopes in the Area51 way:

Couldn’t agree more.
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Old 08-24-2020, 06:43 PM   #46
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This is what I think many people saw the natural progression of AS looking like:





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Old 08-24-2020, 06:51 PM   #47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RobinGShore View Post
copying a few thoughts I posted in the Area Selection Discussion thread over to here:

I don't love the direction that the change to "Razor Edits" seems to indicate. A big part of the appeal of area selection for me has always been that it had the potential to streamline most of the things I currently do with time and/or item selections into a single selection method and make editing faster and more intuitive. Right now, razor edits do the opposite of that. It makes editing even more complex by adding another selection type that's only good for a few specific operations. Having to use one type of selection to make some changes, then switch to a different type of selection for other changes is a real drag to me. I could see this type of thing making sense in a tool based workflow like some people have asked for, but it doesn't make sense to me given Reaper's tool-less paradigm.

I know their were a lot of issues raised with the previous proposal of merging time and area selections (particularly around losing non-contiguous selections)but I thought that even if that specific proposal had problems, the overall intent behind it was good: let area selection inherit all the behavior and capabilities of time selection for those who want that, while still maintaining the old time selection behavior. I hope things can move back towards that idea. Razor edits don't necessarily preclude this, but it would mean that every action that uses time selection bounds would need a new duplicate version that used the razor edit bounds instead.

I'm also not liking the visual changes that were made to AS. The dotted outline with no fill color is way too subtle. I like to sit with my head about 3-4 feet back from the computer screen and at that distance I'm finding it difficult to see the selection at a glance. I have to lean in towards the screen if I really want to be sure of where the selection borders are. I don't hate the stripes that appear when you drag, but I also don't love them, and I'm confused about why the source area is given so much more visual prominence than the destination.
Agree with literally every point, unfortunately.

Area Selection (with Time Selection capabilities added) + old Time Selection = perfect.
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Old 08-24-2020, 08:37 PM   #48
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Originally Posted by ferropop View Post
Agree with literally every point, unfortunately.

Area Selection (with Time Selection capabilities added) + old Time Selection = perfect.
+1, strong agree. Love the progress being made in the 6.13x pre-release, though!
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Old 08-24-2020, 09:06 PM   #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ferropop View Post
Also concerned that "Razor Edits" now roadblocks the progression of Area Selection into manipulating envelopes in the Area51 way:



We will never get the above with Time Selection, it's specifically an Area Selection thing, and the conversion to Razor Edits seems to block out those (and many other!) things from ever happening.

Trimming multiple envelopes is another HUGE thing that ProTools is amazing at, again an "Area" thing.

Just concerned we'll end up with another 3/4-baked concept like Automation Items
This is a good moment to ask Devs if razor edit will be capable of doing things like this. Yeah?
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Old 08-24-2020, 09:17 PM   #50
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Too many tools that do many, but "arbitrarily" limited jobs does seem bad UX design.

I mean if you want to keep AS and TS etc. separate from one another, maybe allow user to LINK these tools together to ease the clutter? I mean "Link time selection to horizontal area selection" setting or similar or a set of configurations so that one can choose to combine the functionality in a way that's more intuitive if they do not like to keep them separate

"Select visible envelope as part of Area selection"
"Select everything (even hidden tracks) when using AS"

etc... something something ease of use? No?
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Old 08-24-2020, 09:42 PM   #51
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ie: while moving/duplicating an Area Selection -- vertical guidelines so you can 100% tell you are moving (often super complicated) stuff to the exact intended location in time.

It's why I harped for months on horizontal track tinting, and now the same issue comes up when trying to accurately place area selections - we are guessing/estimating/using-hands to make sure it is lining up correctly with other parts of the project.
Guidelines (optional) for the arrange, sure, I agree with that, like we have with placing items. Track tinting - NO. Track tinting is for identifying SELECTED TRACKS. These two things, guidelines for placement and track selection identification, are NOT the same thing and should NOT be confused with each other.
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Old 08-24-2020, 11:07 PM   #52
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# Area selection: add default mouse modifier for arrange view right-drag context to initiate marquee item selection when initiated over items/envelopes area selection when initiated over empty space
For the record: this brings back problems with initiating right-click [over empty track area] with pencils that use "hover clicking" for right-mouse-equivalent pencil button.

Right-clicks which have a few pixels of distance between mousedown and mouseup end up interpreted as drags. And since most hovering right-clicks are these kind of "imperfect" clicks, that makes it very hard to bring up right-click context menu (for which a "perfect" click is required). This is especially obvious when using non-1:1 ratio for pencil/cursor movement, for example when small (non-display) drawing tablet is used to control cursor on a large display.

This is not a problem when "Arrange view/right drag" is assigned to only "Marquee select items". In other words, Marquee select works considerably better with pencils' "Hover Click" functionality than Razor Edit. So this is related to how click/drag determination is made for Razor Edit.

This can be reproduced on devices which allow "Hover Click" for pencil buttons, for example Lenovo Active Pens and Wacom pencils. The setting for enabling "Hover Click" is usually found in pencil driver's settings, sometimes in driver's additional options.


Obviously this is an edge case affecting small subset of users, and since workaround of using left drag for Razor Edit is available, this is non-critical. But I hope that this can be addressed at some point, preferably via allowing users to adjust values related to click vs. drag determination.
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Old 08-24-2020, 11:43 PM   #53
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Originally Posted by ferropop View Post
Area Selection (with Time Selection capabilities added) + old Time Selection = perfect.
+1

Ideally, Razor Edit / AS could be used for targeting operations on items and envelopes to same effect as when Time selection (and in some cases, like setting point shapes, Marquee selection) is used for that, but obviously for RE-selected areas only.

I suppose the whole TS/AS conundrum is due to Time selection+Track selection having been used in REAPER as a limited version of Area Selection. So now expanding that functionality is a challenge.
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Old 08-25-2020, 12:40 AM   #54
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Yeah Sexan has a good point. Renaming area selections seems quite an arbitrary decision that further disconnects the user from the intended functionality. Why change nomenclature already established elsewhere? Just to confuse people more? How is that good UX? It's not.
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Old 08-25-2020, 02:13 AM   #55
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Yeah Sexan has a good point. Renaming area selections seems quite an arbitrary decision that further disconnects the user from the intended functionality. Why change nomenclature already established elsewhere? Just to confuse people more? How is that good UX? It's not.
Maybe because it seems that editing behaviors that are usually associated with Area Selection in other DAWs, are *not* going to be supported?

(hypothetical conversation)
User: "Why I can't edit the envelope points in my Area Selections?"
Cockos: "Because they are not Area Selections, forget what can be done in other DAWs. They are Razor Edits! You simply copy, move or stretch them"

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Old 08-25-2020, 02:21 AM   #56
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Originally Posted by amagalma View Post
Maybe because it seems that editing behaviors that are usually associated with Area Selection in other DAWs, are *not* going to be supported?

User: "Why I can't edit the envelope points in my Area Selections?"
Cockos: "Because they are not Area Selections, forget what can be done in other DAWs. They are Razor Edits areas, you simply copy them or move them as they are."
If this is going to happpen and users are going to stay with a limited AS and incomplete AIs, i would really want to know the reason why.
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Old 08-25-2020, 02:31 AM   #57
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They still focus on specific AREA. But anyway not a problem for me, you can call it LITTLE WALTER PART OF SCREEN as far as I'm concerned since I read changelogs (unlike beginners)

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Old 08-25-2020, 07:38 AM   #58
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Originally Posted by ferropop View Post
This is just a general comment, but every instance where you have to "trace/estimate with your eyes/hands" should absolutely be a candidate for guidelines...ie: while moving/duplicating an Area Selection -- vertical guidelines so you can 100% tell you are moving (often super complicated) stuff to the exact intended location in time.
+1.



but there's been an unasked question: how should guidelines be drawn for non-contiguous REs? can't have guidelines for every RE, that would look rather insane -- for the same reason, when you have multiple items selected, guidelines are only drawn for the item you've dragged.

in the case of non-contiguous REs, i think the guidelines should use the outer-most RE boundaries as reference, so that each RE doesn't have its own guideline (unless it's being selected/moved from the larger group via mouse modifier). or, behave in the same way as with normal items: only the dragged RE draws guidelines.
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Old 08-25-2020, 08:01 AM   #59
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+1.



but there's been an unasked question: how should guidelines be drawn for non-contiguous REs? can't have guidelines for every RE, that would look rather insane -- for the same reason, when you have multiple items selected, guidelines are only drawn for the item you've dragged.

in the case of non-contiguous REs, i think the guidelines should use the outer-most RE boundaries as reference, so that each RE doesn't have its own guideline (unless it's being selected/moved from the larger group via mouse modifier). or, behave in the same way as with normal items: only the dragged RE draws guidelines.
That's perfect mccrabney, did you mock that up yourself?

And +1 -- for non-contiguous selections generally the most important are the Start and End points of the full selection.

One caveat: if you're grabbing an entire Chorus for example, but there's a 1-bar FX leading in, so you grab that also, the more important guideline should be the Chorus Start location but the FX (being slightly earlier in time) would take over as the guideline. Still though, as long as it's a proper bar that's not the biggest issue in the world...
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Old 08-25-2020, 08:33 AM   #60
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That's perfect mccrabney, did you mock that up yourself?
haha. no that's just a licecap of me moving around a midi item.
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Old 08-25-2020, 09:30 AM   #61
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Anyone see value in "Create Area/Razor Selection at Cursor"?

Example: Want to perfectly cut out a snare -- so Tab to Transient, run "Create Area/Razor Selection at Cursor" and it would create one (bar/grid length?) exactly at the Transient location. Resize the endpoint to your liking - perfect sample-creation workflow.

Currently it's not possible to do this, have to create a split - which leads to sometimes accidentally splitting the entire project's items at the time ruler.
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Old 08-25-2020, 09:32 AM   #62
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Anyone see value in "Create Area/Razor Selection at Cursor"?

Example: Want to perfectly cut out a snare -- so Tab to Transient, run "Create Area/Razor Selection at Cursor" and it would create one (bar/grid length?) exactly at the Transient location. Resize the endpoint to your liking - perfect sample-creation workflow.

Currently it's not possible to do this, have to create a split - which leads to sometimes accidentally splitting the entire project's items at the time ruler.
(sorry, should this maybe go in the more general thread?)
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Old 08-25-2020, 09:52 AM   #63
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Originally Posted by ferropop View Post
Example: Want to perfectly cut out a snare -- so Tab to Transient, run "Create Area/Razor Selection at Cursor" and it would create one (bar/grid length?) exactly at the Transient location. Resize the endpoint to your liking - perfect sample-creation workflow.

Currently it's not possible to do this, have to create a split - which leads to sometimes accidentally splitting the entire project's items at the time ruler.
Doesn't selecting the area you want with Razor Edit and using "Split media items at all area edges" (Mouse Modifiers > Razor edit area/left click) do something very close to this?


(sorry for mild offtopic)
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Old 08-25-2020, 01:01 PM   #64
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Doesn't selecting the area you want with Razor Edit and using "Split media items at all area edges" (Mouse Modifiers > Razor edit area/left click) do something very close to this?


(sorry for mild offtopic)
Using the Tab to Transient action gets you exactly to the beginning of a transient, but this in no way will line up with gridlines or anything - so there's no way to accurately start a Razor Edit at the exact time ruler.

I'm suggesting that you run an action, and it creates a selection, exactly at your cursor, of some arbitrary length. Then you can drag the end of it to suit the end of the selection appropriately - but the start point will be perfect at a zero-crossing.
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Old 08-25-2020, 08:02 PM   #65
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Area selection is going to be great!!
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Old 08-29-2020, 01:57 PM   #66
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v6.13+dev0824 - August 24 2020
+ FX: update parameter display in TCP/MCP when changed by plug-in from audio thread

Hello, this did not seem to fix the problem with the track control not being updated with some plugins and also the parameter value inversion occuring with VST3.

https://forum.cockos.com/showthread.php?t=241490
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