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Old 08-02-2021, 12:17 PM   #121
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No one is doomed.
Your absolute certainty about this and your willingness to argue the point, about something you freely admit that you have made up, is a terrifying indication of quite how doomed we all are. Someone summon Cthulhu, humanity was a mistake.
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Old 08-02-2021, 12:41 PM   #122
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Okay I think I've got it:
  1. Analogue gain staging is achieved by changing level.
  2. Ergo anything that changes level is gain staging.
  3. Ergo anything that changes level inside a floating point DAW is gain staging.
1. Correct
2. Yep, pretty much it is... if you do not include explicitly the "analogue" word from (1)
3. Yes (if you'd like it to have such meaning though, you must keep it meaningful and purposeful)

You know, because in digital (64bit encoding of audio) we have the freedom to change level with scale factor without affecting the quality of such encoded signal, does not mean we have to do it (scale it).

Again, if you do that scaling, I would ask you: what is the purpose, how is this meaningful?
Should not we scale the corresponding meters as well, which fall in that scaled signal chain?

In digital we pretty much do not have to "escape" or surpass up in volume from some "noise floor". Well even if you consider aliasing as some kind of digital noise, audio gain level up won't change anything (I might be wrong though, have not tested it myself, but it most likely won't decrease the aliasing).

So instead of wasting time arguing about assigned terminology (wrongly or not), maybe we should discuss some "gain staging" with regards to avoid aliasing. Certainly oversampling helps, but could not we somehow get a "flipped phase" of the aliasing to nullify it. That would be great.

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Old 08-02-2021, 01:00 PM   #123
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2. Yep, pretty much it is... if you do not include explicitly the "analogue" word from (1)
3. Yes (if you'd like it to have such meaning though, you must keep it meaningful and purposeful)
Oh good grief no no no that's wrong.

Please, I beg you. Stop using the phrase 'gain staging'. You are using it wrongly.
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Old 08-02-2021, 01:05 PM   #124
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You know, because in digital (64bit encoding of audio) we have the freedom to change level with scale factor without affecting the quality of such encoded signal, does not mean we have to do it (scale it).
OK, so you also don't know the difference between 64bit linear and 32bit floating point. Fine. No harm done. All I care about is that you stop saying 'gain staging', because, again:

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Originally Posted by White Tie View Post
Why does this matter? Because beginners are getting really worried about this stuff, and one misinformed youTube video spawns another two, and people watch them and post here (and elsewhere) about being concerned and confused about how they are supposed to 'take their mixes to the next level' by doing all these bizarre -18dB rituals with VU meters everywhere, and they don't understand, and they can't be doing it right because their mixes still sound the same and of course they do. Everyone should trust their ears and not get meaninglessly sidelined by this nonsense.
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Old 08-02-2021, 01:06 PM   #125
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maybe we should discuss some "gain staging" with regards to avoid aliasing.
Now you think altering the level of digital audio will have some effect on alias artifacts from trying to capture frequencies above the Nyquist limit?!

I was genuinely on the fence before but now I'm convinced this is intentional trolling.

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could not we somehow get a "flipped phase" of the aliasing to nullify it. That would be great.
Not from adjusting the volume. You can avoid that by not trying to digitize a a signal with frequency content above the Nyquist limit of your target sampling rate. Since you aren't preserving that data range in the first place, might as well passively remove that problem before it happens.

I mean... I know you weren't really asking for clarification but that one has a clear answer.
Or are we using a different definition of 'aliasing' today and you were aiming to talk about something else?

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Old 08-02-2021, 01:09 PM   #126
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Oh good grief no no no that's wrong.

Please, I beg you. Stop using the phrase 'gain staging'. You are using it wrongly.
Ok, to make you sleep well I won't call:
· peak treatment (gain, character)
· RMS level (according to meaningful level metering)
· FX levels and tweaks

gain staging.
Let's call all that "levelling" or dal (dalling): digital audio levelling

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Old 08-02-2021, 01:33 PM   #127
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Now you think altering the level of digital audio will have some effect on alias artifacts from trying to capture frequencies above the Nyquist limit?!

I was genuinely on the fence before but now I'm convinced this is intentional trolling.
No, no trolling at all. Just a thought. Again if we could consider "aliasing" as a form of "digital noise" (although we have such noise, despite being fairly low and captured by the first few 4~5 bits).

I am no expert (not even a beginner) in coding but thought it might be predicted or captured or post-processed somehow, with inverting its polarity somehow.
It will affect the desired spectrum though, so it was just a thought.

I know this aliasing occurs with complex signals (timbers) (saturation\compression\distortion) and might be difficult to get recognised.
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Old 08-02-2021, 01:45 PM   #128
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I mean FFS, if you don't agree with a naming convention just come out and say so! If you just start using terms with already defined and agreed on definitions differently with no caveat or explanation, it's meaningless word salad. Why don't you actually try looking up these terms before you throw the words out there with no clue what they mean? Are you Archie Bunker?
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Old 08-02-2021, 02:07 PM   #129
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I mean FFS, if you don't agree with a naming convention just come out and say so! If you just start using terms with already defined and agreed on definitions differently with no caveat or explanation, it's meaningless word salad. Why don't you actually try looking up these terms before you throw the words out there with no clue what they mean? Are you Archie Bunker?
No I am not (have no idea who that Archie is... ah, some actor, so no).
There are many terms inherited from analogue, so... if it deals with gain and in various stages, it should be gain staging.
The topic is clear about that as well. There is no "analogue" or surpassing some hardware "noise floor" in it, so...
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Old 08-02-2021, 04:23 PM   #130
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if it deals with gain and in various stages, it should be gain staging.
No, that is a non sequitur.

Please, I beg you. Stop using the phrase 'gain staging'. You are using it wrongly.
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Old 08-02-2021, 07:53 PM   #131
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Wow...
I haven't seen trolling like this since the days of Bri.
If ignorance is bliss, this will be a very happy boy.
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Old 08-03-2021, 12:05 AM   #132
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No, that is a non sequitur.

Please, I beg you. Stop using the phrase 'gain staging'. You are using it wrongly.
It is Gain stage.
I explained. 64bit or 32bit float... oh, come on, really!?

There are many things in DAWs which are not "the same thing" as in hardware mixing consoles\desks. But we have inherited the terms, the apparel and the functions - although in different realm.

For example level metres in mixing desks did not show Peaks rather VU (some had PPM quasi but that is for Master if available and overall calibrated to different voltage as dBu).
Despite the fact in Reaper we do not have VU meters (heck, we do not have RMS metres by default, for that matter, besides the Master bus), rather we have the Peaks shown on the track (and Master bus) meters.

They are still level meters (represented as pixels). Are they the same as console meteres - no. Do they appear look the same - yes (they can).
Is the process the same - no, rather some approximation with a different consideration: Pekas are more crucial in digital "ceiling" (uspside-down floor, if you will).

Same with Gain staging. We care about Peaks (although we can not hear them clipping! - I know I can't most of the time). Is it the same as analogue Gain staging - no. Does it relate to Gain of levels in order to avoid floor\ceiling border - yes. Does it involve representation of those levels by the means of meters - yes.

Let's call it "digital audio levelling" then if Gain stage has some exclusive right to be applicable only to analogue realm (which would be a bit dumb, as VU metres, distortion).

is it really a knob or a fader, or a metre, button that you design?
No. It is just pixels (in digital world). Do they function as in the real world hardware knobs - not really.
Shall we call it something different or with "digital" or "emulation" designation at the end? It would be simply dumb.

So, as long as you tell me not to use "Gain stage" in this DAW context, I might ask you not to use "knobs" or "faders" or "buttons" when you design your skins. Fair enough?

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Old 08-03-2021, 12:44 AM   #133
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I explained. 64bit or 32bit float... oh, come on, really!?
That is just one example of the many, many things you say that are wrong, and a precise matter of direct, provable falsehood. Just one of many; you are very misinformed about both analogue and digital audio engineering, contrary to your tone. But its fine, it has no negative consequence to anyone, other than you making yourself look a little silly. Please, ignore that I picked you up on it, it doesn't matter. There's just one phrase that causes harm...

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So, as long as you tell me not to use "Gain stage" in this DAW context, I might ask you not to use "knobs" or "faders" or "buttons" when you design your skins. Fair enough?
No, not fair enough.

This nonsense does have negative consequence to other people. You are hurting people. Stop it. Why? As I keep saying:

Quote:
Originally Posted by White Tie View Post
Why does this matter? Because beginners are getting really worried about this stuff, and one misinformed youTube video spawns another two, and people watch them and post here (and elsewhere) about being concerned and confused about how they are supposed to 'take their mixes to the next level' by doing all these bizarre -18dB rituals with VU meters everywhere, and they don't understand, and they can't be doing it right because their mixes still sound the same and of course they do. Everyone should trust their ears and not get meaninglessly sidelined by this nonsense.
Please, I beg you. Stop using the phrase 'gain staging'. You are using it wrongly.
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Old 08-03-2021, 05:44 AM   #134
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That is just one example of the many, many things you say that are wrong, and a precise matter of direct, provable falsehood. Just one of many; you are very misinformed about both analogue and digital audio engineering, contrary to your tone. But its fine, it has no negative consequence to anyone, other than you making yourself look a little silly. Please, ignore that I picked you up on it, it doesn't matter. There's just one phrase that causes harm...



No, not fair enough.

This nonsense does have negative consequence to other people. You are hurting people. Stop it. Why? As I keep saying:



Please, I beg you. Stop using the phrase 'gain staging'. You are using it wrongly.
So you are telling user to not worry about levels, it is all 64 bit\32bitFP and this won't do any harm or confusion?

How would that even make any sense?!

Imaging the beginner pushing up levels so he can hear powerful mix and forget to turn on some level compensation (not calling it Gain staging) down the line and the level goes boom... well Reaper will hopefully auto-mute it but anyway.

Contrary to your suggestions, my explanation on how people can visualise those Peak, RMS levels per track or event with the corresponding metering, in order for the things on the screen to make sense, are more user-friendly and applicable in a pre-mixing/mixing stage.

Many things in analogue are not exactly the same in digital.
I am calling it Gain stage because it is just what it is even in digital domain.

Back in the analogue days we did not have to worry about peaks, they got compressed, the signal got EQed and saturated for free (depending on the tape and equipment used).
Now in digital for each element of those we have to use plugins, and non-linear digital processing in order to get what we used to get 'for free' in analogue. And all this requires proper Gain staging of the signal, otherwise the Peaks will get out of control.

It is really simple and does not do any harm to anyone.
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Old 08-03-2021, 06:14 AM   #135
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So you are telling user to not worry about levels, it is all 64 bit\32bitFP and this won't do any harm or confusion?
What? No. Do not misrepresent what I have said, I am trying to be patient with you but I choose my words carefully; do no abuse my patience.

Please, I beg you. Stop using the phrase 'gain staging'. You are using it wrongly.
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Old 08-03-2021, 07:51 AM   #136
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1. Correct […] That would be great.
Oh. No. You cannot "gain stage" one single track, that's not what the term means and not what the concept intends. To repeat WT: you are using it wrongly.
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Old 08-03-2021, 08:05 AM   #137
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I've just swallowed so much word salad, I'm going to be regular for the next month at least. I can feel my bowels acting up right now.

Adding the word aliasing into the rambling was like croutons for the word salad. Way to go!

Post a mix you've made. Let's end this.
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Old 08-03-2021, 09:17 AM   #138
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So far I can only hear:
"It is not that, nor the other... no, that's wrong, and that either... no single track (?!) can be gain staged, it is not what it is intended for!"

And no one of you even bothers to explain.
How is that helpful for OP or other bedroom producers?

And no, do not excuse yourself with "analogue domain".
very few people (especially beginners) would deal with some tape recorders or hardware channel strips, VU meters or hardware tube compressors, etc.

So, I am patient, I explained my vision and understanding.
Let's hear (read) yours. Or are you "too advanced\busy" to even bother?
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Old 08-03-2021, 09:18 AM   #139
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Post a mix you've made. Let's end this.
Wrong stage. This is not about a mix. This is about the PRE-MIXING stage. Go back and read again.
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Old 08-03-2021, 09:20 AM   #140
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Wrong stage. This is not about a mix. This is about the PRE-MIXING stage. Go back and read again.
No thanks. I've spent enough time on the toilet today due to all the word salad you've shoved down my throat (and every time I burp I taste aliasing now).

You need to do your research. You're wrong.

Or you can post a mix you've made, and show us your expertise.
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Old 08-03-2021, 09:26 AM   #141
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No thanks. I've spent enough time on the toilet today due to all the word salad you've shoved down my throat (and every time I burp I taste aliasing now).

You need to do your research. You're wrong.

Or you can post a mix you've made, and show us your expertise.
Ok, are you dumb? Because you certainly can not read with understanding it.
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Old 08-03-2021, 09:40 AM   #142
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Someone forget to switch to their alternate account there?
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Old 08-03-2021, 09:42 AM   #143
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Ok, are you dumb? Because you certainly can not read with understanding it.
Pro tip: When one person doesn't get it, it's probably them. If pretty much everyone disagrees with you (especially multiple other professionals) and doesn't understand, and you think everyone is missing the point, it's very likely you. At this point in time, it's probably not a bad idea to go back and try to understand what you might be missing.
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Old 08-03-2021, 09:56 AM   #144
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Pro tip: When one person doesn't get it, it's probably them. If pretty much everyone disagrees with you (especially multiple other professionals) and doesn't understand, and you think everyone is missing the point, it's very likely you. At this point in time, it's probably not a bad idea to go back and try to understand what you might be missing.
The guy is clearly dumb. I asked him to go back and re-read, in order not to ask for stupid unrelated requests.
But I am used to such repetitive parrots.

He repeated I was wrong, without him elaborating on his understanding.
White Tie also has such tendency.

Be helpful to the OP or such beginner level users who would like to know and have different sources of information.
Let me be wrong.

Do it\explain it the right way yourself, please.
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Old 08-03-2021, 10:25 AM   #145
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Last I checked, I wasn't the one to make a knockoff janky keyboard design and promote it on my Youtube channel as though I'm going to sell it to people, complete with a logo, and bragging about its features, only to tell people I'm *not* going to produce or sell said keyboard, and it's only for me.

But yeah. *I'm* dumb.

"Gain-stage" that however you wish.

Ooo, I just had an idea: use "gain-stage" as a noun or verb, replacing anything in a sentence. Like how The Smurfs used the word "smurf". One of us has a head start, but once the rest of us join in, I'm sure it'll be great fun.

Ps. You have never mixed a song.
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Old 08-03-2021, 10:37 AM   #146
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Do it\explain it the right way yourself, please.
All I can offer is what I suggested way earlier in the thread. You are hopefully discussing organizational aspects of end-to-end "levels", that when followed, make the entire job easier, less prone to mistakes, less prone to going back and readjusting all the time and 'possibly' a better mix result - and for beginners using non-linear plugins etc where they'd have less trouble if the input and output levels were at some reasonable values across the board.

Even most of the videos you posted are discussing exactly ^that type of organization. Doubling down on the word "gain" in this context, isn't really a good idea and if you just reframed it as organization and levels, you'd likely get little or no disagreement. I've made the exact same argument in the past (and I stand by it), just don't call it gain.

The problem is the potential conflation between ^that and inferring actual sonic damage in a floating point system, which can't reasonably occur while inside the system. You can set a track to almost +150 dBFS and suffer zero damage to the waveform so long as you turn it back down anywhere before it hit's the DAC. Anyone here can test this and see - and is the reason clip indicators on tracks don't actually mean clipping.

Thusly, the care and feeding of "gain stages" in analog simply does not apply here because of that simple fact, they are different things for different reasons, just use levels instead and you'll be fine.

Note: Yes I know that if someone increases the 'level' to +20 dBFS on the way into a non-linear plugin, it probably wouldn't be a good idea but we still want to consider using 'input level' etc. instead of gain staging because in analog a gain stage is an actual amplifier that comes with self-noise, noise floor etc. so its really and truly better to just avoid "gain stage" in digital.
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Old 08-03-2021, 10:45 AM   #147
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You can set a track to almost +150 dBFS and suffer zero damage to the waveform so long as you turn it back down anywhere before it hit's the DAC. Anyone here can test this and see - and is the reason clip indicators on tracks don't actually mean clipping.
A Reaper video from 4 years ago demonstrating this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5efick6yJA4
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Old 08-03-2021, 10:47 AM   #148
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A Reaper video from 4 years ago demonstrating this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5efick6yJA4
Yea, someone posted it earlier in this thread.
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Old 08-03-2021, 10:57 AM   #149
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just don't call it gain.

You can set a track to almost +150 dBFS and suffer zero damage to the waveform so long as you turn it back down anywhere before it hit's the DAC.

Note: Yes I know that if someone increases the 'level' to +20 dBFS on the way into a non-linear plugin, it probably wouldn't be a good idea but we still want to consider using 'input level' etc. instead of gain staging because in analog a gain stage is an actual amplifier that comes with self-noise, noise floor etc. so its really and truly better to just avoid "gain stage" in digital.
Those are correct clarifications. Gain and Volume are different things.
Usually I use Gain (up) if I intend to amplify the signal non-linearly. With Volume in use the amplification is linear (by intention, which not always occurred in analogue domain\devices, as it depends on many factors treating electrical currency).

With that said I stand by the word Gain here as by intention I use such plugins (sometimes even draw them\edit the Peak-related samples "by hand\mouse\tool" - no one would even be able to hear any difference!) and that is non-linear "distortion", hence it allows me to change the gain or volume should I want to do it in the pre-mix and most certainly during the mixing.

I am changing the Gain of the Peaks. Their state changes.
It is just one element of what they got used to get "for free" in analogue Gain stage.

So technically I am Gain staging in the DAW post-recording from the ADC (in minuscular interval: Peaks, as explained) but most of the time I compress, saturate and this changes the Gain (distorts intentionally, and EQs the signal or element of it).

Would anyone be able to hear the Peaks clipping, had I left them for the Mixing stage when levels usually go up? Most likely not. I know I can not hear them clipping, unless they really accumulate in quantity and volume (pass my ears' inertia in milliseconds of hearing audio).

So to me it is Gain staging in a DAW.

Is it necessary when in the "huge bit range" inside the DAW?
Yes, because the meters must make sense and have purpose by design - to be showing some "red clipping" from those Peaks (no one can hear clipping actually, so "use your ears" does not help with such "red flags"). Low\mid-low rumble is a different offender and should be dealt with at the source (not always possible, I know)...

but 99.99% of the beginners to intermediate mixes suffer from that muddy rumble (and raw Peaks). Why?
Because those usually can not be heard (or beginners do not have the habit of "using their ears" yet for the rumble... the clipping Peaks are out of detection most of the time).
And then with a "fixing solution" on the Master by using a limiter and raising the signal of accumulated rumble and Peaks, the Master starts to "crackle" (audibly clipping) without even raising the volume that much (some low, inaudible by the beginner rumble has eaten the almost non-existent headroom in a first place).

I had those problems. I see 99% of beginners having it.

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Old 08-03-2021, 11:11 AM   #150
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With that said I stand by the word Gain here as by intention I use such plugins (sometimes even draw them\edit the Peak-related samples "by hand\mouse\tool" - no one would even be able to hear any difference!) and that is non-linear "distortion", hence it allows me to change the gain or volume should I want to do it in the pre-mix and most certainly durin
A) Being stubborn about gain is going to cause grief every time you use it. Simply because it has a different meaning/connotation in analog and using it here, no matter how you justify it, causes others to misunderstand and equate it with legacy analog issues. That risk of misunderstanding is far more important than your personal take on it.

It has a legacy meaning that you can never get away from so it is better termed input and output levels. I, others here and pretty much every professional you meet are going to call you out on this, and for good reason.

B) Based on some earlier posts of yours... I don't know why you keep going on and on about clipping no one can ever hear. If no one can ever hear it, it simply does not matter because well, no one can hear it and this is about creating something you hear.

This is lab-coat mentality interfering with and complicating the end result. This is also the reason, people got a hell of a lot more work done and still created great mixes when there weren't so many god d*#* meters and measurements for people's left brains to vapor lock looking at and letting that override their ears FFS. Trust me on that one, it's as much a plague as it is helpful.
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Old 08-03-2021, 11:40 AM   #151
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A)If no one can ever hear it, it simply does not matter because well, no one can hear it and this is about creating something you hear.

This is lab-coat mentality...
When there weren't so many god d*#* meters and measurements...
True indeed. But Peaks do accumulate within mixing, FX, volume raise.
But that was an element of the Loudness war: limited Peaks to the point of sounding very similar to "square waves" (digital hard clipping).
Hence so many such Loud mixes sound "digital" as people (yes, those with keen ears and "using their ears") call them. For the most consumers it was loud and thus better.

Well, we are using nowadays such devices that would have been labelled "lab-coat devices" 20 years ago. They have higher sample rates, detect 10 000ths of a second (fractions of a second) of the sound (times beyond human hearing inertia).

So, we are using lab-coat devices and that is great.
VU meters were used to make sure the signal does not get buried in the noise chain (floor). I am not saying it was easier... but back then recordings (first stage) were developed to perfection (yes, in expensive studios and equipment and mics).

Today we have fairly cheap lab-coat devices that give us so many options... thus elements to screw up.

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Old 08-03-2021, 12:03 PM   #152
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True indeed. But Peaks do accumulate within mixing, FX, volume raise.
But that was an element of the Loudness war: limited Peaks to the point of sounding very similar to "square waves" (digital hard clipping).
Hence so many such Loud mixes sound "digital" as people (yes, those with keen ears and "using their ears") call them. For the most consumers it was loud and thus better.
I'm not sure you are introducing any insight of value in this statement.

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Well, we are using nowadays such devices that would have been labelled "lab-coat devices" 20 years ago. They have higher sample rates, detect 10 000ths of a second (fractions of a second) of the sound (magnitudes beyond human hearing inertia).

So, we are using lab-coat devices and that is great.
VU meters were used to make sure the signal does not get buried in the noise chain (floor). I am not saying it was easier... but back then recordings (first stage) were developed to perfection (yes, in expensive studios and equipment and mics).

Today we have fairly cheap lab-coat devices that give us so many options... thus elements to screw up.
Well I've been around a very, very long time (hell I've been "retired" from live mixing for 20 years now LOL) so I was there then, those gray hairs in my avatar are authentic but... None of that addresses the point I made.

The problem is many can and will obsess over tools/meters/measurements and completely forgo and forget what really matters (some of that is occurring in your posts tbh); and subsequently stop using their ears and demanding something they cannot hear is a problem - which is terribly ironic.

As soon as they cross that line, the tool is no longer a tool and instead a hindrance and a handicap. We all see this all the time in threads here, there and everywhere, it's sad because so many people get so caught up in this when there are far more important skills to refine.

Just so you know, there are one or more here, who keep replying to you, not to convince you, but rather to keep the record straight so when others read this a day/week/year from now, they have the correct information in lieu of.
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Old 08-03-2021, 12:20 PM   #153
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Yes, but I never talked about Mixing (the creative part, just mentioned it here and there to get a point across).

It's regarding completely nit-picking subject as level setups, signal recording, preparation, edits, where to have plugins (InputFX or SlotFX).

Edit: and Ga.. ok, not this time.
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Old 08-03-2021, 12:51 PM   #154
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Edit: and Ga.. ok, not this time.


I've never doubted your intentions were/are sincere.
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Old 08-03-2021, 01:42 PM   #155
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I honestly think some of you are being a little bit rough and a lot pedantic about this. For devices with limits, the relationship of our signal levels to those limits matter. If you can’t move the limits, then you need to move the signal. I don’t have a lot of problem with calling that gain staging.

That though is a far cry from saying something like “make sure everything is at -18dbFS RMS on either side of every plugin cause that’s where it sounds best”. That statement (and anything similar) is just blatantly, demonstrably false and utterly ridiculous for a number of reasons, but mostly because different signals are different, and “sounds best” is complete subjective and mix dependent.

The real problem with the whole thing (again) is that things sound best when they actually sound best. No meter or analyzer can tell you what sounds best. There’s no secret formula or shortcut. The only way to know if it sounds good is to listen. If you can’t or won’t do that, then this part of the process just isn’t for you. Shut up and play your guitar and find somebody who actually is willing to put in the time and effort to handle the engineering and mix work so you don’t have to worry about it.

On the subject of “clipping that nobody can hear”, like that’s a common thing people say, and it sort of makes sense, but it’s a bit shortsighted. No you might not hear anything you’d identify as unwanted distortion if just a couple of of samples get clipped off here or there, but like what else are you not hearing? If that peak wasn’t clipped off, it would be a sharp pokey transient, and you might sort of hear/feel it if it was there. Whether you want it or not is another question. Let’s say you don’t really want it, but you’ve been mixing with your hardware output pushed up a little far so those couple of samples do get clipped off the whole time you’re listening. Then you do the sane thing and render to floating point and then normalize. Now those samples aren’t getting shaved off, and they bother you for some reason you might not even be able to name. More importantly the mix you end up with just isn’t what you were hearing before, and that is unacceptable.

But whatever. Mix by numbers is not a thing. The only way to know what sounds best is to listen. Many of the best sounds actually come from doing things “wrong”. It was true in analog and it’s true in digital. Make sure there’s no distortion in your monitor chain. Turn the other knobs til it sounds good.
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Old 08-03-2021, 04:14 PM   #156
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I don’t have a lot of problem with calling that gain staging.
I don't either to an extent but I think the main point others were making is that the term is sort of ruined already and will confuse people who think there is some magic there and/or conflate with legacy analog issues which there is already way too much of?

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On the subject of “clipping that nobody can hear”, like that’s a common thing people say, and it sort of makes sense, but it’s a bit shortsighted. No you might not hear anything you’d identify as unwanted distortion if just a couple of of samples get clipped off here or there, but like what else are you not hearing? If that peak wasn’t clipped off, it would be a sharp pokey transient, and you might sort of hear/feel it if it was there.
You'd turn it down a little and listen? Because if you can't hear it, you can't hear it period. If you can hear any difference at all in the result, then I think that's hearing it. Not being a smart ass, just clarifying because that's different than OMFG it's ruined because I see clip indicators.
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Old 08-03-2021, 09:11 PM   #157
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So Ashcat and Karbo, if you can't hear it does it matter? I really don't know, I seldom mix and master beyond -1.0dB at -14.LUFS, at least I try to stay in that realm. To me that -1.0dB is a safe level.

I often see mixes that are Flatlined sitting around -0.8 to -0.4 and highly compressed or limited. Often there will be a few overs, at least that's based on Reaper's meters. These are usually highly compressed or limited.

I also received a mix recently that was down around -16.0dB with little limiting. I proceeded to master it and got it in reasonable shape to where it sounded pretty good. Then they sprung on me that they also mastered it with LANDR and preferred that master. So they sent it to me and it was flat lined and had a lot of high end that sounded very edgy. That along with all the distortion guitars made it sound really trashy but they obviously didn't have the means to hear that.
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Old 08-04-2021, 03:03 AM   #158
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Because if you can't hear it, you can't hear it period.
...just clarifying because that's different than OMFG it's ruined because I see clip indicators.

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So they sent it to me and it was flat lined and had a lot of high end that sounded very edgy. That, along with all the distortion guitars, made it sound really trashy but they obviously didn't have the means to hear that.
@karbomusic
That is all good, but what if someone else might hear it?
As Tod pointed out about the trashy quality.

As they say, Metallica's "Death Magnetic" (with engineers Andrew Scheps and Greg Fidelman), has won the Loudness war, which started maybe at the very end of the '90s, with digital processing getting more prevalent in audio engineering. Even the mastering engineer Ted Jenson, who had to master the album was puzzled by little to no decibels left.

They used the fact that in digital we can push up loudness volume without any gain (distortion) and the other fact that peaks being digitally clipped, could not be heard - especially in heavy style of music such as the "Death Magnetic" album (plenty of distortion on all instruments by the genre\style).

If you do this level loudness madness (as in fact every war is a madness) approach to a classical music, listeners will be dead... or rather the mixing\mastering engineers would be exiled in Arrakis (Dune) or whatever.

That is why classical music was really tricky to record back in the days and usually required quite expensive equipment with the lowest noise floor and the highest possible linearity in its circuits, with the highest quality tape, etc.
Basically the mixing and mastering had to be "all inclusive" as part of the recording process. Preparation for that was 90% of all the work done.

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Old 08-04-2021, 03:13 AM   #159
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That is all good, but what if someone else might hear it?
The same is true for every single sonic detail of the mix. It doesn't matter to me what it is that can't be heard, but that if it truly can't, it can't matter.
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Old 08-04-2021, 03:29 AM   #160
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The same is true for every single sonic detail of the mix. It doesn't matter to me what it is that can't be heard, but that if it truly can't, it can't matter.
Most of the time small details (reverbs and delays) can't really be heard on the whole mix, but they add up to actually make the mix.
Same with unpleasant details, such as peaks (short and loud snaps of the sound)... you might not be able hear them 'digitally clipping' separately, but when they accumulate tend to sound like a "square wave" (digital distortion, which is quite different from analogue distortion).

But of course the mix is genre\style specific. There are genres where digital clipping is part of the sound (hardcore techno and such).
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