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Old 07-28-2021, 10:40 PM   #1
earhax
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Default Faders and track volume/pan/mute readout/UI don't reflect values set by automation?

One of my major grievances with the UI in REAPER is when it fails to reflect the state of track automation visually. Changes to automation envelopes for volume, trim volume, pan, and mute aren't visually represented in any way other than within the envelope lanes.

Is there any way to change this behavior? Is it possible that I inadvertently toggled some preference that disabled these UI changes from showing up in my projects?

With volume changes, not only does the track fader not move, but even the output volume level shown for the track is wrong (fader in the MCP, or in the TCP if using a layout with value readouts).

This just seems really counterintuitive, and is different from any other DAW I've used.

I'm honestly not sure if it's supposed to be this way, or if it's a bug. But I'm really hoping there is some way to change this behavior.
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Old 07-29-2021, 04:20 AM   #2
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If you only need the visual feedback of automation, set automation mode to Read.
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Old 07-29-2021, 04:27 AM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by xpander View Post
If you only need the visual feedback of automation, set automation mode to Read.
Yay! Really glad to hear it's something so simple to fix. Surprised it doesn't just work the same way in the default trim/read mode, but oh well. Thanks!
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Old 07-29-2021, 07:48 PM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by xpander View Post
If you only need the visual feedback of automation, set automation mode to Read.
Unfortunately, this still doesn't work (sometimes - see below). Tried both setting all tracks to read mode, as well as global automation override to read. Still can't see any changes in the track UI for automation on the track.

EDIT: Okay, looks like it will show the UI automating, but only when the track is in read mode and the automation envelopes are armed for recording.

Not sure why they need to be armed or in read mode only in order to show the automation that is effectively being applied to the track on the track UI in the TCP/MCP.

Basically, anytime automation is changing the volume/trim/pan/mute on a track, the UI should reflect the automation values to make the automation transparent to the user.
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Old 08-01-2021, 04:27 AM   #5
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There is a setting in preferences to make Reapers UI show those changes. I‘m not at my studio, so I don‘t know where right now.
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Old 08-01-2021, 04:33 AM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by airon View Post
There is a setting in preferences to make Reapers UI show those changes. I‘m not at my studio, so I don‘t know where right now.
Please let me know what it is when you are able to take a look and find it. Thanks!
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Old 08-01-2021, 05:21 AM   #7
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For context, about the envelopes needing to be armed (in addition to be set to Read mode) to show applied automation on the UI here's Justin's reasoning for it:
https://forum.cockos.com/showthread....30#post2465030
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Old 08-01-2021, 12:25 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nofish View Post
For context, about the envelopes needing to be armed (in addition to be set to Read mode) to show applied automation on the UI here's Justin's reasoning for it:
https://forum.cockos.com/showthread....30#post2465030
I can see how that makes sense. However, when I want to adjust trim while in another automation mode, I normally either adjust the volume trim envelope, or use a VCA.
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Old 08-01-2021, 06:34 PM   #9
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Here's the real problem with the way REAPER handles automation envelopes, and what I really can't figure out regarding volume automation.

I have my tracks at -12.0dB (fader setting) by default. If I add a volume envelope and a trim volume envelope (and/or a Volume (Pre-FX) envelope), even in read mode, they're showing 0.0. The volume readouts in TCP and MCP for the track show -12.00dB/-12.0.

However, if the Volume envelope is armed, the TCP/MCP readouts are both at 0.0, but the -12dB fader setting is still applied on the track output level.

The problem is that this is completely invisible in the TCP or MCP UI. It isn't reflected in the trim volume envelope, or either the Volume or Volume (Pre-FX) envelope.

I would expect that adding a volume envelope on a track with the fader set at -12dB should result in the volume envelope showing -12.00dB instead of 0.00dB, thus mirroring the track fader level. If the fader is changed to another level without any automation on the Volume or Trim Volume envelopes, the Volume envelope readout and position (of the horizontal line) should also change to reflect the current fader level.

If automation is added to the Volume envelope, it should be reflected in the UI by the fader position and volume readout, and audibly by the output level of the track for the level shown in the UI.

If automation is also (or separately) added to the Trim Volume envelope, it too should also be reflected in the UI by fader level and volume readout. But currently, with the track fader set to -12dB, the track automation mode set to read mode, and both a Volume and Trim Volume envelope added, and both armed, the track UI will then show a 0.0dB level in both the track UI (faders/readouts), and in the envelope lanes.

Furthermore, if I add automation to the Trim Volume envelope, it doesn't have any visible effect on the track volume level in the TCP or MCP UI at all - only in the envelope UI itself, and only with the track in read mode and the envelope lane armed, or in trim/read mode whether the envelope lane is armed or not. However, the volume is displayed properly only when nudging/moving the edit cursor with the transport stopped. When playing, the volume readouts for neither the track UI nor the envelope readout will change whether the envelope is armed or not.

Bottom line: the fader and volume readouts of the TCP and MCP for a track with volume and/or trim volume automation should reflect the state of the sum of the automation levels for both envelopes when the track is in read mode, and the readouts of the envelopes should reflect their individual levels - regardless of their arm state - whether stopped and moving the edit cursor, or while the transport is playing/recording.

Also, read mode shouldn't allow for automation to be written even with envelope lanes armed. That's what the other automation modes are for. But currently, if either volume or trim volume envelopes are disarmed in read mode, while playing and with a time selection present, I can move the knob on the envelope lane and write the automation of that volume change within the time selection.

If the idea, as Justin explained, is to have a stable volume fader for writing trim volume automation that can be automated separately from volume automation while in trim/read mode, then trim/read mode should be where the fader and volume readouts only reflect the track's trim volume level/automation so that it can be set/automated independently of the volume automation.

However, considering the envelope lanes have their own knobs, this could still be accomplished even with the volume envelope automating the track volume fader and readout simply by using the knob in the trim volume envelope lane to automate the trim volume independently of the volume automation.

The thing that just doesn't make any sense is not having the actual output level of the track shown properly in the UI when in read mode - whether using volume automation, trim volume automation, or both. And the volume readouts of the automation lanes also not properly reflecting their current level during playback regardless of automation mode or arm state doesn't make any sense either.

Honestly, as much as I love REAPER and everything it allows me to do via ReaScript that I can't do with DAWs like Pro Tools or Ableton Live, it's stuff like this that is fundamentally broken and causes so much frustration that I'm seriously considering either abandoning its use altogether, or using it only for specific tasks where needed, and sticking to Pro Tools as my primary DAW for all other purposes. Because aside from just this issue, I've found that, overall, I end up spending so much time trying to fix various functionality issues via ReaScript that it ends up being less efficient or productive than using a DAW with fewer capabilities.
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Old 08-01-2021, 10:20 PM   #10
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I agree, the way reaper handles trim automation is really not great. I wouldn't call it broken per se as it does follow a consistent logic, it's just confusing and unintuitive. I believe it's a vestige of Reaper being originally inspired by Sony (now Magix)Vegas, which uses a similarly confusing system.

The way it works is as follows:

Each track in Reaper can have up to four layers of volume control. A pre-fx volume envelope, a "normal" volume envelope, a trim volume envelope, and an overall volume trim setting that does not have an envelope associated with it. The three envelopes can all be automated, the overall volume trim is just a static setting that applies to the entire track. The overall trim is also the only volume setting that is active on a track by default, the envelopes all have to be activated manually before they can be used.

The only values that can be displayed on a track's fader/readout are the overall trim volume, and the normal volume envelope. There's no way to show the sum of all the layers of volume, and if you want to see a fader/readout for the pre-fx envelope or the trim envelope you'll need to view them in their own envelope lanes.

When a track is in trim/read mode the fader/readout will always display the static overall trim volume even if the volume envelope is active and armed. The volume envelope (as well as the pre-fx and trim envelopes) will still be read, it just won't be displayed on the TCP/MCP fader. If the track is in any of the other automation modes (read, touch, write, latch-preview) and the volume envelope is armed the fader/readout will switch to showing what's on the volume envelope. The overall trim value, will still be active you just won't be able to see it. If the volume envelope is unarmed the fader will go back to showing the static overall trim volume, no matter what automation mode the track is in. Again the volume envelope will still be read and have an audible effect when it's not armed, it just won't be displayed on the fader.

Once you can wrap your head around all this you'll have a much easier time. Still doesn't make it a good system, but it least you'll be able to understand what you're seeing. The most confusing elements to me are trim volume envelope, which despite it's name has nothing to do with the trim/read automation mode, and the static trim value. These two serve pretty much redundant purposes, and the existence of the trim envelope would seem to negate the need for a static trim setting.
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Old 08-04-2021, 02:30 AM   #11
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Let me try to streamline that a bit .

In general, study the Preferences/Automation page. Plenty of interesting stuff there.

For example, you can control what happens with the trim/read volume control value when you activate a track volume envelope : When adding volume/pan envelopes, appy trim to envelope and reset trim dropdown box.

Pre-FX Volume envelope
  • Not displayed on any fader.
  • Editable only via envelope editing.

Trim/Read static volume control
  • Default track mode
  • Not automatable
  • Always active

Track Volume Envelope
  • Needs activation before use
    Can be activated by
    • Action
    • If Preferences/Automation/Automatically add envelopes when tweaking parameters in automation write modes is checked, changing the volume either by any means.
    • Right-clicking on the envelope button on the TCP or MCP and choosing Volume at the top of the list.
  • Can be displayed on the MCP/TCP both on the fader and numerically(see Options/Theme/Theme Adjuster for options on that)
  • Can be controlled via mouse,actions(and thus keyboard,midi&osc), and control surfaces.

Trim Volume Envelope
This is a little tricky. It's not global, it's per track and thus a secondary volume envelope.

I use this a lot during mixing, dialogue mostly. You cannot actually record to it.

One example workflow on how to use it is :
  • Swap the track volume with the trim volume envelope via action
  • Record volume automation to the track volume envelope
  • Apply the track volume envelope to the trim volume envelope and then swap the envelopes again, or swap them first and apply the trim volume envelope to the track volume envelope. You have a choice, as if that really matters .

Not elegant, but it works fine. I have two buttons setup for this. One swaps, the other applies and swaps. That way I can run that extra layer of control over an already recorded track volume envelope.

There's more fun. A fifth possible layer and as many more as you like actually.

VCA Leaders(formerly known as Masters). Setup a group relationship via track group properties (context menu of TCP/MCP) of Leader(s) and Follower(s). A VCA Leader will apply its track volume and the static trim/read volume on its Followers during playback. An extra layer, that you can stack more VCA Leaders on top of. VCA Leaders adding their layer to other VCA Leaders. Fun for the whole mixing family.

If you have any more trouble, just ask.
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Last edited by airon; 08-04-2021 at 02:37 AM.
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Old 08-04-2021, 09:42 PM   #12
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The signal flow of tracks is shown on page 118 of the current version of the manual(v6.33g). See a link above for that.
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