Old 07-06-2021, 05:49 AM   #1
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Default LBX Smart Knobs 2

Just a quick heads up: Smart Knobs 2 is just around the corner (but still, it's done, when it's done )

We have been talking about the project and some further details on sonicstate.com.
Here is the link to the podcast:
https://sonicstate.com/news/2021/07/...h-super-knobs/

And here's the new home of Leon's scripts:
https://www.lbxtools.com/


Feel free to post questions here. We will try to answer them.
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Old 07-06-2021, 02:05 PM   #2
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System requirements? I run an old Mac for now. Really looking forward to this.
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Old 07-06-2021, 04:08 PM   #3
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Looks impressive!!

Quote:
We have been talking about the project and some further details on sonicstate.com.

Are you... Stephan Romer ?... Stevie/Stephan ?



You have your current expressive picture profile since so long I was surprised to see you differently - more relax actually haha
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Old 07-06-2021, 04:12 PM   #4
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Looks very promising!
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Old 07-06-2021, 04:52 PM   #5
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System requirements? I run an old Mac for now. Really looking forward to this.
Reaper.

As long as you run Reaper and Reaper runs ok - SK2 should work. We haven't really tested on older systems - but it should work ok as long as it can handle the midi.

If you are using with an XTouch - with full feedback including scribble strips - then a decent midi interface is required - not a really cheap one that's likely to drop midi events. Most half-decent soundcards I've tried it with tend to have suitable midi ports - but a cheap £15 usb midi interface may struggle to keep up with the midi feedback at times.

Other controllers without scribble strips shouldn't have issues as the feedback requirements would be far less.
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Old 07-06-2021, 04:56 PM   #6
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Looks impressive!!
Are you... Stephan Romer ?... Stevie/Stephan ?

You have your current expressive picture profile since so long I was surprised to see you differently - more relax actually haha
Haha, yeah, that's me!
I chose that avatar like 15 years ago on a different forum and kept it.
I hope I haven't caused too much damage!
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Old 07-08-2021, 02:32 PM   #7
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Saw the Sonic State vid, looking forward to what this brings.
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Old 08-02-2021, 11:02 AM   #8
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Just thought I’d check in to see how things are going...
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Old 08-02-2021, 01:09 PM   #9
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Just thought I’d check in to see how things are going...
All I can say is very soon... This month definitely - and if it's not ready - I'll release it anyway - as it's working great! (I'm trying really hard to get the final few things done)...

The main issue is having some documentation in place - to try to avoid the more basic questions when it gets released.

For anyone reading this that has plans to try out SK2 when it's released - it would be useful to know what controllers you plan to use with SK2. Here we've tested mainly XTouch's (and XTouch extenders), and SSL Nucleus. Although I cannot provide mappings for SK2 for other controllers easily - there is some software coming with SK2 that will hopefully make it easy to set it up for your controller.
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Old 08-02-2021, 02:23 PM   #10
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- it would be useful to know what controllers you plan to use with SK2.
Thank you so much for all of the hard work put into this project! I primarily plan on using it with a Keith McMillen K-MIX, although I'm making use of this great plugin made by ajaym for REAPER, which I feel might confuse some functionality. It works as a control surface plugin and actually requires you to disable the k-mix control surface in the main MIDI device option screen:

https://forums.cockos.com/showthread.php?t=188753

If that is the case, I'll most likely use my other primary controller, the Keith McMillen QuNeo. I also have a SoftStep 2, but I've found only leaving simple tasks to the foot controller best..
My primary use purposes will be live performance and improvisational composing, definitely ready to put some time in battle testing for stability. I lean heavily on Realearn at the moment, so I will be interested to see where these two intersect and where they diverge and work well in tandem.

Thanks again!
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Old 08-02-2021, 03:24 PM   #11
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Great ...

So now all I need to find is a Controller that can handle multiple Bands
of an equalizer [with Gain, Freq, Q] per band [maybe 6+ bands].

Anyone know of any ?

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Old 08-02-2021, 04:31 PM   #12
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Thank you so much for all of the hard work put into this project! I primarily plan on using it with a Keith McMillen K-MIX, although I'm making use of this great plugin made by ajaym for REAPER, which I feel might confuse some functionality. It works as a control surface plugin and actually requires you to disable the k-mix control surface in the main MIDI device option screen:

https://forums.cockos.com/showthread.php?t=188753

If that is the case, I'll most likely use my other primary controller, the Keith McMillen QuNeo. I also have a SoftStep 2, but I've found only leaving simple tasks to the foot controller best..
My primary use purposes will be live performance and improvisational composing, definitely ready to put some time in battle testing for stability. I lean heavily on Realearn at the moment, so I will be interested to see where these two intersect and where they diverge and work well in tandem.

Thanks again!
Hi, I've had no experience with these particular controllers - but a quick glance over their user manuals suggest they should work well with SK2.

The main criteria is that the controller must use standard MIDI messages both for output to the DAW and for feedback messages back into the controller.

SK2 does have certain requirements regarding setup of the MIDI ports in MIDI Device settings in Reaper. That is that the MIDI input port needs to be set to 'Control Only'. SK2 then takes care of the routing to any tracks if required.

It isn't normal to use SK2 alongside a standard control surface setup in Reaper - but that is something I've not tried. If you only want certain controls mapped within SK2 and others mapped as a Reaper control surface (via Preferences) - it might be possible if you design the SK2 controller map carefully - but I'm not 100% on that - I think it would probably clash somewhere. Although - hopefully - with SK2's flexibility - it hopefully wouldn't be required and SK2 can do everything you need.

SK2 isn't set up like a standard control surface in Reaper - It has its own 'control tracks' which look after all the input and output from the controller.

Hopefully - when you (and others) have been able to create 'controller maps' for your different controller devices to make them communicate correctly with SK2 - we can create a library of controller maps for future users using the same devices. That's the plan anyway
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Old 08-02-2021, 04:37 PM   #13
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Great ...

So now all I need to find is a Controller that can handle multiple Bands
of an equalizer [with Gain, Freq, Q] per band [maybe 6+ bands].

Anyone know of any ?

I don't know of any controllers that provide multiple encoders and a fader per channel - the XTouch's any provide a single encoder and fader per channel - alongside a bunch of buttons. This seems to be the standard layout for most 'mixer' style controllers that I've seen.

But - SK2 does have very flexible assignments - using multiple layers to quickly switch faders or encoders (or both) to alternative mappings - so allowing you to cover most (if not all) assignments you need... And of course you can enable/disable these layers by buttons on the controller.
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Old 08-02-2021, 11:45 PM   #14
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I don't know of any controllers that provide multiple encoders and a fader per channel - the XTouch's any provide a single encoder and fader per channel - alongside a bunch of buttons. This seems to be the standard layout for most 'mixer' style controllers that I've seen.

But - SK2 does have very flexible assignments - using multiple layers to quickly switch faders or encoders (or both) to alternative mappings - so allowing you to cover most (if not all) assignments you need... And of course you can enable/disable these layers by buttons on the controller.
Hi lb0,

Not so much looking for any 'fader' controllers ...

What I need would be purely for controlling Equalizer plugins. [though, compressors would be nice] ... but the main brunt of my work is through EQs.

And to that, I'm not sure that MIDI would be able to give fine enough parameter control. An example being, I use the Massenburg MDW eq. When I get down to those final details ... eq Band GAIN get to 0.1 dB adjustments ...
same goes for 'Q' values.

The obvious goal would be not having to look at a screen [positioning a mouse pointer], but having two hands on controls ... adjusting, and just listening. How I miss the hardware days :|

Unfortunately, I not really seen a type of Controller for EQ [only] ... the Market may not be there for it generally. I'm sure somebody could do a custom build ... but that could be both expensive as well as not knowing if it would work as required.

Nonetheless ... its best to ask around. Never know !?!
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Old 08-03-2021, 01:21 AM   #15
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But - SK2 does have very flexible assignments - using multiple layers to quickly switch faders or encoders (or both) to alternative mappings - so allowing you to cover most (if not all) assignments you need... And of course you can enable/disable these layers by buttons on the controller.
Does that mean you could use momentary style buttons as a 'shift' modifier?

i.e. let's say i had 8 faders and 8 rotaries and wanting to control EQ.

Faders would adjust EQ band gain, and Rotaries adjust EQ band Freq.

But the ability to hold a 'shift' style modifier so rotaries control Q value would be great. Perhaps Shift and faders to change on/off state too, up to the end user of course.
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Old 08-03-2021, 01:39 AM   #16
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Definitely interested. Looks so deep and configurable that its a bit scary. I hope the mapping system is made ultra-easy and fast to setup. You know big steep curve at the setup phase and then you kinda fall before even using it. Not the first time it happens here.

Congratulations for the project! Wish y´all the best!
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Old 08-03-2021, 02:03 AM   #17
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Does that mean you could use momentary style buttons as a 'shift' modifier?

i.e. let's say i had 8 faders and 8 rotaries and wanting to control EQ.

Faders would adjust EQ band gain, and Rotaries adjust EQ band Freq.

But the ability to hold a 'shift' style modifier so rotaries control Q value would be great. Perhaps Shift and faders to change on/off state too, up to the end user of course.
Yep - exactly this. You can set up buttons to momentarily (or latch, or hold) activate different layers - which will overlay the default layer.
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Old 08-03-2021, 02:08 AM   #18
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Definitely interested. Looks so deep and configurable that its a bit scary. I hope the mapping system is made ultra-easy and fast to setup. You know big steep curve at the setup phase and then you kinda fall before even using it. Not the first time it happens here.

Congratulations for the project! Wish y´all the best!
I've really made it as simple as possible IMO. For a basic setup - you wouldn't need to set up the more complex parts of the control map.

So at its very simplest - you drag in a control type (onto the control map layout) - set the way the control works (absolute, relative, on/off button) - then learn the midi that controls it - and enter the midi that it uses for feedback (if different). And for Faders/Encoders - you can set a touch on/off message if available.
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Old 08-03-2021, 02:46 AM   #19
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SK2 isn't set up like a standard control surface in Reaper - It has its own 'control tracks' which look after all the input and output from the controller.

Hopefully - when you (and others) have been able to create 'controller maps' for your different controller devices to make them communicate correctly with SK2 - we can create a library of controller maps for future users using the same devices. That's the plan anyway
That does sound promising, I enjoy flexible routing! I was using the original Smart Knobs for a spell, so I'm at least familiar with the "__LBX_SKCTL" controller track, but it sounds like this will be a completely different beast altogether. I didn't get too far before this new version was announced a while back though, I figured I'd save up my energies for what was on the horizon. =)

Always looking forward to contributing to controller libraries if I get a good enough system going! Wouldn't know where I'd be with half the things I'm working on without help patches and other user submitted templates/libraries.. Also, I've started messing around with the new version of TouchOSC (which is way more intuitive and versatile, I might mention), already been able to replicate some of my hardware controllers fairly easily, MIDI feedback and all... curious to see how it might also pair with SK2... I'm beginning to fear I may be stuck in controller land into the winter... =X

I do appreciate the care it seems is going into making workflows easy and intuitive to map out. Thanks for taking great effort to make it accessible and usable for as many workflows as possible. Can't wait to take SK2 for a spin!
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Old 08-03-2021, 03:15 AM   #20
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I've really made it as simple as possible IMO.
Glad to hear that


Mmm that thing about having its own setup on the MIDI devices window makes me wonder: can i still use my controller to control VST parameters AND input regular MIDI data? Or is this exclusive? If not, how do you toggle this?

Damn now i REALLY want to try it!
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Old 08-03-2021, 03:43 AM   #21
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Glad to hear that


Mmm that thing about having its own setup on the MIDI devices window makes me wonder: can i still use my controller to control VST parameters AND input regular MIDI data? Or is this exclusive? If not, how do you toggle this?

Damn now i REALLY want to try it!
What I meant is that the input ports (in MIDI devices) for any SK2 connected device need to be set to 'Control Only' (not 'Enabled' as this would make the midi route through to All MIDI Inputs track input - which you really don't want to happen) - and there is also no traditional setup like a normal control surface (which would normally use the Control/OSC/web tab in Preferences).

SK2 does have it's own setup routine that generates all the required tracks for receiving and routing midi to where it needs to go.

So all of your controllers midi will be routed to the SK2 control tracks which then takes care of any further MIDI routing (and conversion) onto record-armed tracks via a loopback midi port (You would need to have a loopback midi port installed - and there are free ones available for all OS's).

But simple answer is yes - with SK2 you can generate and send MIDI CC's (both 7bit and 14bit) through to tracks for recording/capturing the CC's, control VSTs/track parameters and capture automation/trigger actions etc - all at the same time if you wish.

The good news is you really don't have to worry about any of this routing - it can be hidden away so you can completely ignore it. All you need to do is tell SK2 which ports your controller is connected to - and what controller map to use so SK2 knows what controls are available on your controller. SK2 can manage up to 4 different controller devices. More can be added with a few hacks - depending on the device.

Last edited by lb0; 08-03-2021 at 06:30 AM.
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Old 08-04-2021, 01:03 AM   #22
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Thanks for the explanation!

I just have one controller and i´d like it to usually work like if it was "Enabled" in the preferences: just send the midi straight to the midi tracks. I guess i would be using SK2 on plugins where i usually need to write a lot of automation, so i need hands on control.

Looking forward to the release!
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Old 08-04-2021, 07:56 AM   #23
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Thanks for the explanation!

I just have one controller and i´d like it to usually work like if it was "Enabled" in the preferences: just send the midi straight to the midi tracks. I guess i would be using SK2 on plugins where i usually need to write a lot of automation, so i need hands on control.

Looking forward to the release!
It would work as if it was enabled - but what happens is that if it was enabled - then the output from the controller would be sent to all midi inputs to the tracks - which is no good if you need to dynamically map different CC's and control instruments etc.

What happens - is it's set to control only - however - an SK2 control track is still set up to receive the input from it. SK2 then manages a JSFX plugin on the control track which decides whether it should be outputting MIDI to a track (which it does by converting the incoming MIDI into the correct output MIDI and sending it to the loopback MIDI port - then this loopback MIDI port gets seen on the target track under the All MIDI Inputs - so it just takes a more indirect route through to the target tracks).

For Plugin/Track parameters etc - the incoming MIDI value is stored in global memory - and this is then picked up by the SK2 script itself - and applied to the necessary plugin/track parameter.

All this enables complete dynamic control of assignments depending on which track or plugin has focus - so you can have entirely customized mappings for different tracks and different plugins. And of course there are ways to use specialized TAG and global maps - so you can assign more general mappings across multiple tracks easily if required - it would be a pain to have to set up a specific map for every track.
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Old 08-11-2021, 02:55 AM   #24
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Really looking forward to this!!!!!!

I've been using smartknobs with realearn and faderbox for a while now and I can't imagine being without it. Much more reliable than the old mapping / q controls I used to use in Cubase :-)

I have a Midi fighter twister and 2 Roli lightpad blocks currently in use.

The first 8 knobs of the fighter twister are set up with LBX and then the bottom 4 are mapped to other things (track volume pan, metronome level etc) with realearn.

I then have LBX slot 9 onwards mapped to the 2 roli blocks with both x/y and pressure . Really useful.

I love the idea of "when the FX is in focus" (or whatever the technical term is :-)). So I can use the same encoders for all sorts of different plugins. And then the fact that it remembers these from project to project. Genius!
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Old 08-13-2021, 06:03 AM   #25
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Gosh, another video to check out. Never hurts to have good options.

One of my MFT units is currently working on CSI, but if Smartknobs2 can make that an easier job to setup, I might give it a go as well.
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Old 08-13-2021, 06:30 AM   #26
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Gosh, another video to check out. Never hurts to have good options.

One of my MFT units is currently working on CSI, but if Smartknobs2 can make that an easier job to setup, I might give it a go as well.
The video really made me think about getting a Behringer controller instead of the MFT :-)
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Old 08-13-2021, 06:48 AM   #27
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The video really made me think about getting a Behringer controller instead of the MFT :-)
May also be worth waiting to see what the BCR32 is going to be like, could be a very affordable option!
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Old 08-13-2021, 07:02 AM   #28
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May also be worth waiting to see what the BCR32 is going to be like, could be a very affordable option!
That looks good too! Too many options....arggghh :-)
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Old 08-19-2021, 09:35 AM   #29
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Mozart999uk ja sóc aquí!! Esperant pacientment aquí, ara!! jajaja!!

RJHollins de Nebula must have?? Sembla que ens trobem a tots els forums.
Pel que has dit, jo em vaig construir un senzill controlador amb una placa arduino, quan dic senzill és que és senzill, mireu tu mateix a la foto. No sé si funcionaria amb sk2 i el nou motor knob2, pero si que funciona amb knob1. Controlo els meus plugins tan d'EQ com de COMP! Evidentment, podries construir-te un controlador per EQ, que és més o menys el que he fet jo, i utilitzar-ho també per COMP. L'únic problema és que els knobs no reaccionen a la posició del plugin obert, per dir-ho d'un altre manera, no fan un reset i adopten el valor del midi del següent EQ. Això és un problema perquè pot fer que el tocar el knob, l'ajustament que havies fet es modifiqui.

hi ha l'opció de Midi Fighter Twister 225 Euros o també esperar que ofereix el controlador de beghringer BRC32
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Old 08-19-2021, 09:39 AM   #30
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Mozart999uk ja sóc aquí!! Esperant pacientment aquí, ara!! jajaja!!

RJHollins de Nebula must have?? Sembla que ens trobem a tots els forums.
Pel que has dit, jo em vaig construir un senzill controlador amb una placa arduino, quan dic senzill és que és senzill, mireu tu mateix a la foto. No sé si funcionaria amb sk2 i el nou motor knob2, pero si que funciona amb knob1. Controlo els meus plugins tan d'EQ com de COMP! Evidentment, podries construir-te un controlador per EQ, que és més o menys el que he fet jo, i utilitzar-ho també per COMP. L'únic problema és que els knobs no reaccionen a la posició del plugin obert, per dir-ho d'un altre manera, no fan un reset i adopten el valor del midi del següent EQ. Això és un problema perquè pot fer que el tocar el knob, l'ajustament que havies fet es modifiqui.

hi ha l'opció de Midi Fighter Twister 225 Euros o també esperar que ofereix el controlador de beghringer BRC32
Hi !!!!!!!! Gonna have to write in english. Hope that's ok.

Your controller looks great. Nicely built!!!. :-)

I have the midi fighter twister. Works well with knobs 1.

However the behringer x touch is next on my list to use with knobs 2
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Old 08-19-2021, 09:47 AM   #31
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If I am using google translate, so sorry in advance, hahahaha !!

Thanks for complying with my Knobs driver, one does what it can and more when you have no idea of program code. But in the end I found a pre-written code that I was able to re-use. But I say, it's a drawback, when you want to make modifications so that the knobs take the value of the previous pre-adjustment. It is the one that has the analog mode in front of the digital one.
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Old 08-19-2021, 10:59 AM   #32
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If I am using google translate, so sorry in advance, hahahaha !!

Thanks for complying with my Knobs driver, one does what it can and more when you have no idea of program code. But in the end I found a pre-written code that I was able to re-use. But I say, it's a drawback, when you want to make modifications so that the knobs take the value of the previous pre-adjustment. It is the one that has the analog mode in front of the digital one.
Yes. The midi fighter twister does this very well!
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Old 08-19-2021, 11:55 AM   #33
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Yes. The midi fighter twister does this very well!
I was thinking of buying it but it is worth a lot of money for me right now and I opted for homemade DIY. Now I am waiting for you to take out the beghringer market to choose one option or the other. I hope that when I go out I already have enough money to think which of the two options is more appropriate
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Old 08-20-2021, 01:41 AM   #34
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I was thinking of buying it but it is worth a lot of money for me right now and I opted for homemade DIY. Now I am waiting for you to take out the beghringer market to choose one option or the other. I hope that when I go out I already have enough money to think which of the two options is more appropriate
I'll let you know.

I will be selling my midi fighter twister when I buy the behringer ;-)
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Old 08-20-2021, 02:46 AM   #35
Amparitoo
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wow, so the driver you don't use I'll be able to buy it second hand, hahaha
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Old 08-20-2021, 02:52 AM   #36
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wow, so the driver you don't use I'll be able to buy it second hand, hahaha
hee hee - I'm sure we can come to an arrangement ;-)

Just need smart knobs 2 to become a reality. ooooopppppsssss sorry....didn't mean to chase ;-)
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Old 08-20-2021, 09:28 AM   #37
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hee hee - I'm sure we can come to an arrangement ;-)

Just need smart knobs 2 to become a reality. ooooopppppsssss sorry....didn't mean to chase ;-)
jajajaja, I would have added a tic-tac, tic-tac ... Is there anyone in the house ??
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Old 08-23-2021, 08:09 AM   #38
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Lovely devs (Stevie????)

Don't suppose there's any chance smart knobs 2 will remember any of the settings made with smart knobs 1 is there?
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Old 08-23-2021, 09:26 AM   #39
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Leon is the main dev, I'm only contributing small snippets :P
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Old 08-23-2021, 09:39 AM   #40
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Leon is the main dev, I'm only contributing small snippets :P
I'm sure your snippets are very important :-)
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