Old 07-21-2021, 03:09 AM   #1
BartR
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Default Reaper and Dolby ATMOS?

Im' very interested to know if ever Reaper will be working with Dolby ATMOS panner, not only in bridged mode, as they said me in Dolby Lab).

I know that Dolby at the moment in time, didn't planned any Panner for Windows platforms nor Linux. Just Apple.
But aside this, in case Dolby change their mind and delivers these pans to all the environment, is there any chance Reaper will be employed for such case?

Thank you
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Old 07-22-2021, 10:24 PM   #2
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I saw this video last week and wondered whether reasurround pan is almost there.... with 'custom speakers' placed in the center and a few additional binaural and HRTF features I think this might work.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AIaEJXcreTo
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Old 07-23-2021, 02:11 AM   #3
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Originally Posted by earlabs View Post
I saw this video last week and wondered whether reasurround pan is almost there.... with 'custom speakers' placed in the center and a few additional binaural and HRTF features I think this might work.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AIaEJXcreTo
ReaSurround panner has nothing to do with Dolby Atmos panner ... that should be employed to properly code for the renderer, producing the required objects.

Do not confuse the 5.1/7.1 with Amtos.

In common they have only one thing: the name Dolby.

When I wrote on the Dolby's forum, BennetS responded that: Reaper can work with Dolby Panner in bridged mode.
However the Dolby Panner is available ONLY for Apple. Not any plan for Windows.
They say "they are avialable to talk with Cokcos fto find solutions", because it seems DOlby (so he told) has issues with a deeply flexible platform like Reaper. hence they need to seat to table with Cockos.
True or not true, is what he told :-)

Beside this, I would like to understand from Cockos if ever they plan to hit that sector as well. Which is the missing ring Repaer still have: Dolby
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Old 07-23-2021, 02:47 AM   #4
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It's an interesting challenge.

-edit-

Atmos is a meta data panner.

I'll try to put it in to context of Reaper.

You automate the following things:
  • Recorder channel, of which there are a maximum of 128 iirc, or even more?

  • Volume and 3D Pan position

The Encoder for the final Atmos file will contain at the very least
  • The audio bits sent to the channels, pre-pan and pre-fader

  • Meta data of the volume and 3D pan automation for the audio bit

You end up with a checkerboard of post-fx but pre-fader/pan audio in the resulting Atmos file.

In Reapers case that would need to be pre-panner. The panner has to send the volume automation along with whatever the Dolby panner or Reapers ReaSurround Panner(the new one) carries.

A complicated situation. Probably makes an extension necessary, and I bet they integrated pretty heavily in Protools and Nuendo.


I could be mistaken that the volume automation is not carried over. The panner may add its own layer on top of what the track outputs.

Maybe this will be a post-fader type of deal so it can all be kept separate and neat. [/ramble]
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Old 07-23-2021, 02:52 AM   #5
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It's an interesting challenge.

128 monophonic target tracks with automation data for 3D pan and volume.

Does that sum it up well enough ? It's been a while since I had a look at the spec as I don't use it.
The specs still the same. Nothing is changed.
These channels are encoded into proprietary format.

Due some clickbait video, many ones think Atmos-for-Music is different beast from Atmos CInema. Wrong. It's exactly the same story,n applied in 2 different environments.
There is a Cartel: Dolby-Apple-Avid and Majors up there.

You can't even upload your Amtos Object on any digital store.
To do it, you have to download an AVID Plugin, and ot have access to an AVID Portal. Whatever DAW you use.

Pay an amount to be able to upload the Object, then you do it.
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Old 07-23-2021, 01:29 PM   #6
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Originally Posted by airon View Post
It's an interesting challenge.

-edit-

Atmos is a meta data panner.

I'll try to put it in to context of Reaper.

You automate the following things:
  • Recorder channel, of which there are a maximum of 128 iirc, or even more?

  • Volume and 3D Pan position

The Encoder for the final Atmos file will contain at the very least
  • The audio bits sent to the channels, pre-pan and pre-fader

  • Meta data of the volume and 3D pan automation for the audio bit

You end up with a checkerboard of post-fx but pre-fader/pan audio in the resulting Atmos file.

In Reapers case that would need to be pre-panner. The panner has to send the volume automation along with whatever the Dolby panner or Reapers ReaSurround Panner(the new one) carries.

A complicated situation. Probably makes an extension necessary, and I bet they integrated pretty heavily in Protools and Nuendo.


I could be mistaken that the volume automation is not carried over. The panner may add its own layer on top of what the track outputs.

Maybe this will be a post-fader type of deal so it can all be kept separate and neat. [/ramble]
it's not heavily integrated at all. Simply their plugin is made in a way that, at the moment, doesn't voluntary fit Reaper.
But it fits Logic, Ableton, Nuendo, PT and all of them ONLY under Apple.
Reaper CAN work with, but bridged.

Of course they are just see on which platform their plugin is running, and if that platform in not foreseen, even if technically can work: it doesn't
How does Atmos work? Jus not-disclosed. So: no-replicable,except by hacking it.
I'm NOT supporting this at all!
I would just like to know when and if Reaper, one day, can get into Dolby Atmos.
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Old 07-24-2021, 10:22 AM   #7
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I do hope these documents are useful.
Those are the fundament for Atmos as well.

Here I found some reference
https://www.pro-tools-expert.com/pro...mos-we-explore

Here the ITU recommendations for object based audio (BBC collaborated for this)
https://www.itu.int/dms_pubrec/itu-r...1-I!!PDF-E.pdf
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Old 07-26-2021, 10:13 AM   #8
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Please here the link to Dolby Labs where they are talking about Reaper:

https://professionalsupport.dolby.co...=1627319220080
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Old 07-30-2021, 10:16 AM   #9
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I tested Reaper with Dolby Atmos in Dolby Bridge mode and with Ravenna between 2 Macs computers, works fine, I do prefer working with the Ravenna configuration which is more flexible.
We can print the file into the Dolby Atmos Renderer.

The new Reasurround Panner gives us a bit of Dolby Atmos bed support like 7.1.4, to be continued. For the objects, for now we have to deal with the Dolby Atmos Music Panner, no object support in the new Reasurround.
What is missing is to continue the new Reassurround development with Dolby Atmos options and the implementation like Dolby ADM import/export into Reaper.

Among developers, any news about those Dolby Atmos development questions ?
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Old 07-30-2021, 10:54 AM   #10
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We did speak with Dolby about interoperability with the Atmos renderer. They were very nice and helpful but there are some issues that make direct interoperability (the way Pro Tools and Nuendo communicate in a native-like way with the renderer) unlikely at this time. REAPER can interact fine with the Atmos panner/renderer using the Dolby audio bridge.

Putting aside the Atmos renderer, it is technically possible for us to add native support for rendering Dolby ADM files but as mentioned in that Dolby forum thread, REAPER's flexibility makes this a bit difficult to visualize. If there are Atmos users here who can imagine a potential REAPER workflow that would work for rendering ReaSurround panning metadata into ADM BWF files, this would be a fine place to talk about it. It's imagining the potential workflow that is the primary hurdle, not the technical specifics of how to embed the panning metadata into the rendered files.
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Old 07-30-2021, 11:27 AM   #11
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Since the Ear Production Suite is already able to produce object based mixes in Reaper, to export ADM files and to import ATMOS ADM ones, I wonder if you could talk with them too, and perhaps benefit from some sort of collaboration ?
https://ear-production-suite.ebu.io
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Old 07-30-2021, 11:45 AM   #12
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We did speak with Dolby about interoperability with the Atmos renderer. They were very nice and helpful but there are some issues that make direct interoperability (the way Pro Tools and Nuendo communicate in a native-like way with the renderer) unlikely at this time. REAPER can interact fine with the Atmos panner/renderer using the Dolby audio bridge.

Putting aside the Atmos renderer, it is technically possible for us to add native support for rendering Dolby ADM files but as mentioned in that Dolby forum thread, REAPER's flexibility makes this a bit difficult to visualize. If there are Atmos users here who can imagine a potential REAPER workflow that would work for rendering ReaSurround panning metadata into ADM BWF files, this would be a fine place to talk about it. It's imagining the potential workflow that is the primary hurdle, not the technical specifics of how to embed the panning metadata into the rendered files.
This will be great Schwa. I mean if with the contribution of how does use Atmos, it will be possible to put set Reaper at the stage to fully support it, it will be a great step ahead in this sector.

Thank you also to JM_DUCHENNE e BERG for their contribution. Please continue here.

About Dolby Audio Bridge: I watched their video. It looks (to me) a bit cumbersome to set up. Hence it will be great if REAPER will support this natively.

Aside the fact that unfortunately they don't make any panner for Windows platforms, but who knows in the future? Perhaps can Reaper communicate directly with the Renderer avoiding platforms limitations?
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Old 07-30-2021, 01:24 PM   #13
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Originally Posted by jm duchenne View Post
Since the Ear Production Suite is already able to produce object based mixes in Reaper, to export ADM files and to import ATMOS ADM ones, I wonder if you could talk with them too, and perhaps benefit from some sort of collaboration ?
https://ear-production-suite.ebu.io
I'm watching the video on the link you shared.
It's freaking cool!
It will be interesting to understand iw it's possible to send everything from Reaper to the Dolby Renderer
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Old 07-30-2021, 11:50 PM   #14
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If there are Atmos users here who can imagine a potential REAPER workflow that would work for rendering ReaSurround panning metadata into ADM BWF files, this would be a fine place to talk about it.
Dolby Atmos is just a proprietary format similar to the open standard of NGA (Next Generation Audio, more here: https://www.bbc.co.uk/rd/projects/next-generation-audio). NGA is using the ADM (Audio Definition Model) and the ITU specification for Object-Based Audio production.

I think the best way to see this is not how many Dolby Atmos users we have here, as most of them are already using Nuendo or Pro Tools to work on the format. I think the best way to see this is how many Reaper users would like to be able to pan 3d objects and beds in the world's most commercially successful immersive format. I bet almost everyone that wants to mix for more than 2 channels would benefit from adding Dolby Atmos on their studio capabilities, and of course we would love to see it done the "Reaper Way".

Everybody would benefit from the inclusion of Dolby Atmos rendering using information from ReaSurroundPan, as Dolby is heavy on marketing and this would grand the capability of exporting to full Dolby Atmos for many studios that can't invest big budget.

Additionally, as Dolby pushes the standard into the music sector, it would benefit the art greatly, especially for genres and styles that can use the immersive standard to present the material better. Music that needs envelopment goes beyond live concerts and genres of folk music like Sufi music or Greek Rebetiko that the musicians can perform mingled with the audience, or rap/trap music that uses many vocalists surrounding the listener, can really pass their unique performance characteristics through the use of immersive delivery. In general, any music genre that breaks the fourth wall.

As the EAR Production Suite custom panning/upmixing panners work, a similar functionality could be build in the ReaSurroundPan. The operator would report what type of channel this panner processes (bed, 3d object), and then the metadata would be written out accordingly.

You can see the workflow of the EAR PS here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u7P5mEFY76k

The EAR uses a much more advanced configuration to support different languages of dialog and other kinds of multiple-choice content that the final audience can switch from their device, so the Dolby Atmos solution should be simpler in that matter as it's not geared towards broadcasters.

I think that we (Reaper operators) could just use the ReaSurroundPan and probably a global project Dolby Atmos settings place to input all the information needed, and from those Reaper should have enough to export a Dolby Atmos master file.

Is there something else that I'm missing?

I actually didn't mention at all how many studios will get more clients from the film industry, but I think you get the idea in general.
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Old 07-31-2021, 06:55 AM   #15
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at the EAR website is written

"Currently the files are not compatible with the Dolby Atmos Production Suite.
The cause of this problem is that each set of tools currently uses a different ADM profile. The EAR Production Suite uses the EBU ADM Production profile, whereas the Dolby Atmos tools use Dolby’s ADM profile specification. The EAR Production Suite provides a conversion from the Dolby profile on import, however it only exports to the EBU Production profile and the Dolby tools do not accept this as input. We hope to provide support for ADM profile conversion in future.
More generally, ADM support has been implemented by different manufacturers and there are currently some interoperability issues. The EBU ADM Production profile is not yet widely supported, but we are working with the industry to ensure proper interoperability, using common profiles at the various stages from production through to emission."

translated: also Fraunhofer ha such technique (I have got their system and I'm licensed as well), but it's useless till the moment:
- no way to use it wih Atmos
- it has not any mass embedded decoder as Atmos has, on platforms as iOS, Win, OSx, Android system and home theater systems
- the items above, are also the weaks of Ambisonics

For all the rest, I do agree with the good expressed point of view by Joystick.
Reaper needs Atmos.

I'm Dolby Licensee for Dolby Digital, Pro Logic II and the dead MLP.
I already produced and commercialized music with Ambisonics technology knowing its strenght and weakness.
I would work to get in Atmos as well, but my condition is: with Reaper and under Windows.
I just wait for it. And honestly, I'm waiting for Reaper since a whule, being Atmos-for-Music, not a news at all. It's some year old now. Just it reached the ADS maturity to be promoted on market.
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Old 08-02-2021, 03:30 AM   #16
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We did speak with Dolby about interoperability with the Atmos renderer. They were very nice and helpful but there are some issues that make direct interoperability (the way Pro Tools and Nuendo communicate in a native-like way with the renderer) unlikely at this time. REAPER can interact fine with the Atmos panner/renderer using the Dolby audio bridge.

Putting aside the Atmos renderer, it is technically possible for us to add native support for rendering Dolby ADM files but as mentioned in that Dolby forum thread, REAPER's flexibility makes this a bit difficult to visualize. If there are Atmos users here who can imagine a potential REAPER workflow that would work for rendering ReaSurround panning metadata into ADM BWF files, this would be a fine place to talk about it. It's imagining the potential workflow that is the primary hurdle, not the technical specifics of how to embed the panning metadata into the rendered files.
The difficulty in finding a workflow for RPR & Dolby ADM (DDM) for Atmos is not that it's so flexible, but in that it's very awkward in that you can ONLY have a stereo panner (even on a surround project), and surround panning is only implemented as a FX, so correct signal flow is harder to enforce. Really, this should change as other uses have also requested a track-native surround panner. My proposal takes into account current RPR & DDM limitations.

## Concept

Similar to the MPH plugin, a single "master" reasurroundpan (RSP) FX on the master bus, or preferably a separate track (due to better mono routing), "collects" channels and pans them, and this info & audio is forwarded to the RPR render infrastructure. I don't like the EAR suite paradigm where you have multple plugins for different jobs, and need to take 3 steps (assign, route, add) to setup 1 object. It also crashes a lot (for me) due to fragile configuration. The proposed paradigm is only 1 step to route (after initial setup). Only problem is managing many objects in 1 UI, workaround is soloing objects to manipulate them.

The aim is to produce DDM for Atmos interop w/ other software, whereas EAR cannot. Beds & objects which are panned inside RSP is only to offer a preview which produces sound. The preview is not the Dolby renderer, so it is only a approximation of what will be heard, unless connected to the Dolby renderer (more on that later)

## New UI
### RSP Dialog
RSP has a new menu or menu widget under the existing output layout. The output layout is thus, now a monitoring layout and not directly affecting Atmos. input channels sets the elements available for Atmos panning/use, up to 64 (current RPR limitation). The Dolby Atmos mode has these options:

- Off. Current behavior, or can be used as a send to Atmos bed on another instance of RSP.
- No bed, 20, 30, 51, 71, 712 bed layout. These are valid options in the Atmos Renderer.
- 714 bed. This is actually implemented as 71 + 4 objects due to DDM. This is an important feature to avoid 712ism, where anything routed to a 712 bed has no height depth & sounds un spacious.
- 4 (or more) reserved slots for future use.
- Custom bed config. Opens a dialog similar to the input config in the renderer when you can configure multiple beds, groups, etc
- Push config to renderer. Additionally, connects to renderer. Mac only.
- Pull config from renderer. Additionally, connects to renderer. Mac only.
- Ultra-compatible mode: on/off. Toggles the limiting of objects to 118 max.

DA mode locks the position of 1st 0-12 channels (as defined by bed config), and the rest are objects up to the input channels count.

The divergence control in RSP now controls the size of Atmos objects. Ideally, object color & name will be taken from the source track (this is a niceity of EAR).

### Render dialog
"Dolby ADM" is a new option in this dialog. Sample format is locked to 48/24. Due to DDM, volume envelopes are applied to the waveform. The render infrastructure checks for the only RSP FX set to a DA bed mode, and renders DDM. If multiple such RSP are found, RPR should crash with a Microsoft C++ redistributable error as found in EAR. (Just kidding, this case should be handled more gracefully).

Except for bed, Silent objects are not rendered to file. It's possible to know this via routing.

If this isnt possible, rendering ADM from RSP is acceptable.

### File Menu
A new item "Create project from Dolby ADM" exists. A new <=64ch track is created, with the DDM on it, which sends beds & objects to new component tracks 1-12ch wide, which in turn sends to a new DA "master" track with a RSP FX & appropriate settings & automation. >64ch DDM should fail until >64ch wide tracks are implemented in RPR.

New mono wavs are NOT created on disk (unlike EAR import). This is fastest & most efficient. 1 clip sends to multiple tracks. This offers the lower resource usage than multi clips on multi tracks.

## Misc
Ideally, RPR shall have a true mono track type (which does not have a panner knob), and also allows 128-wide tracks to use all of Atmos tracks. Maybe 256 for future formats.

Disclaimer: I don't really use RSP, but this may change when DDM is implemented. I don't use DAPS, so some details might be wrong. Ideas subject to change. See the Dolby ADM document for more details.

---
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Old 08-02-2021, 08:13 AM   #17
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I would work to get in Atmos as well, but my condition is: with Reaper and under Windows.
I just wait for it. And honestly, I'm waiting for Reaper since a while, being Atmos-for-Music, not a news at all. It's some year old now. Just it reached the ADS maturity to be promoted on market.
Exactly my thoughts BartR. :-)
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Old 08-03-2021, 10:52 AM   #18
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Exactly my thoughts BartR. :-)
now just we hope that discussion will continue and that @schwa & @justin will consider this development to, let's say, find the way to implement Atmos on Reaper
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Old 08-03-2021, 01:24 PM   #19
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...that @schwa & @justin will consider this development to, let's say, find the way to implement Atmos on Reaper
Fingers crossed!
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Old 08-03-2021, 07:26 PM   #20
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RSP has a new menu or menu widget under the existing output layout
This is a really helpful proposal, thanks!

Why limit the render source to a single master-like reasurroundpan instance? Would it be logically workable if the user could mark any reasurroundpan instance in the plugin as either a bed or a set of objects?
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Old 08-04-2021, 03:30 AM   #21
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This is a really helpful proposal, thanks!

Why limit the render source to a single master-like reasurroundpan instance? Would it be logically workable if the user could mark any reasurroundpan instance in the plugin as either a bed or a set of objects?
I assume you mean many RSP instances doing panning as opposed to 1 master.

Yes, but it would need a few things/niceities since RSP is a FX:
- Position & type sent from RSP pan (up to 128 instances) to RSP master instance
- Atm global config info sent from RSP master &/ project settings to RSP pan instances
- Keeping track of who is master, and auto-object ID w/ manual overriding to avoid/track conflicts (avoid manual ID step of EAR)
- Automatically setting parent channels, or make a routing, with a RSP pan instance GUI (avoid manual routing step of EAR)
- RSP knowing how deep/hierarchy of track of itself & others are
- Track name & color info sent to all applicable RSP instances
- Send audio pre-pan, and pan info from RSP master to file render (this was implicit in proposal 1 anyway)
- Low latency data sharing, low crashes


I could write a new proposal if all of these are possible?

Since there is no native mono track type, you can mute R on a 20 track, and you also said 128-wide tracks would be the future?

New questions:

- Can Dolby ADM code can be licensed separately from Dolby rendering code?
- is licensing Dolby rendering code affordable/does it depend on how much use it will get?
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Old 08-04-2021, 05:10 AM   #22
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I agree with the above, very detailed description of junh1024.

One thing that popped to mind and I'm not sure if it was discussed, is that if RSP is made to switch between Dolby Atmos rendering targets or normal renders, the Reaper project becomes a non-destructive way to mix all surround formats in one go, which is kinda awesome right?
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Old 08-04-2021, 08:52 AM   #23
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please here a link to the documentation related to Atmos

This is the chapter 1.4 the doc is quite long and interesting
https://learning.dolby.com/hc/en-us/...s/360053203311
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Old 08-04-2021, 02:03 PM   #24
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I agree with the above, very detailed description of junh1024.

One thing that popped to mind and I'm not sure if it was discussed, is that if RSP is made to switch between Dolby Atmos rendering targets or normal renders, the Reaper project becomes a non-destructive way to mix all surround formats in one go, which is kinda awesome right?
If I correctly understood, it can avoid Dolby Panner as well, communicating directly with the Renderer. And the renderer with the RMW (early was called RMU).
If it's true, then even the "legacy" with apple can be broken.

Because one of the point is that: the Dolby Panner is made only for Apple.

But Dolby Renderer is also for windows

So the ideal architecture should be

Code:
Windows/Mac                                       Windows/Mac
---------------------------                       --------- ====> RME  
|Panner => Dolby Renderer |====> MADI/Dante ====> |RMU/RMW| 
---------------------------                       --------- ====> Focusrite
P.S. I know Dolby in video says that you can render without RMW on the DAW machine. Yes ........ into an i5 4 cores as usual with apple I really challenge this. And INDEED in their DOC (link I posted above) this is strongly highlighted. They suggest (see the case) the external RMW :-)
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Old 08-05-2021, 01:06 AM   #25
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Yes, the legacy setup can be avoided (thank for the link BartR), if done this is good news for many studios.

Probably many will jump on the ship just to mix in Dolby Atmos using a more "open" (aka Reaper) pipeline.

In music, synchronized choreography of the sound sources is very important, so by having Dolby Atmos renders with RSP and using the Parameter Modulation with Audio signal Control, we can have real-time movement responding to the source's performance, just like Sound Particles Energy Panner works.

This is very useful for sound design on CG/VFX like spells, destruction and debris, sci-fi weaponry, metaphysical monsters, etc. And the talent can hear it in real time through a binaural aux send in headphones and control the performance.

Oh, this is so exciting :-)
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Old 08-05-2021, 02:21 AM   #26
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If I correctly understood, it can avoid Dolby Panner as well, communicating directly with the Renderer. And the renderer with the RMW (early was called RMU).
If it's true, then even the "legacy" with apple can be broken.

Because one of the point is that: the Dolby Panner is made only for Apple.

But Dolby Renderer is also for windows

So the ideal architecture should be

Code:
Windows/Mac                                       Windows/Mac
---------------------------                       --------- ====> RME  
|Panner => Dolby Renderer |====> MADI/Dante ====> |RMU/RMW| 
---------------------------                       --------- ====> Focusrite
I think you're misunderstanding things a bit here. The role of a renderer is to pan & make sound.

If you have a software renderer, you do not render it again with a rendering & mastering workstation RMW. You can connect to one, bypassing a software render, but there is generally no need, unless you have many speakers.

If you read My proposal 1 carefully, RSP bypasses the Dolby panner, but also doesn't need to connect to any Dolby renderer cuz RSP makes sound through its own algorithms (alternative/approximation to Dolby renderer), implemented earlier this year. An option is also included to connect to the Dolby renderer (same PC or network PC) if you want accurate Dolby Atmos (DA) sound output. The main point is actually to make Dolby ADM (DDM) files compatible with other Atmos software, you basically "can't Atmos" if you can't DDM. Object panning choices are necessary, hence my detailed proposal & NEW questions to schwa.

Nuendo & Resolve studio are windows apps which may include the Dolby renderer (for accurate DA playback), but are limited to 714 output. No RMW is needed. The Dolby renderer may also be limited to a subset of speaker layouts (RSP internal rendering has no such limitation), use a lot more CPU, and may be much more expensive to license.

- Is making DDM files sufficient + internal RSP audio rendering? (it is for me)
- should Dolby renderer audio rendering inside RPR & RSP be available?
- Would you use the Dolby renderer choice in RPR/RSP if it was available, taking into account differences w/ RSP above?

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Originally Posted by Joystick View Post
by having Dolby Atmos renders with RSP and using the Parameter Modulation with Audio signal Control, we can have real-time movement responding to the source's performance, just like Sound Particles Energy Panner works.
You can already export 714 files thanks to RSP FX, and you can automate RSP XYZ position. By " Dolby Atmos renders " do you mean DDM files?
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Old 08-05-2021, 02:52 AM   #27
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I think you're misunderstanding things a bit here. The role of a renderer is to pan & make sound.

If you have a software renderer, you do not render it again with a rendering & mastering workstation RMW. You can connect to one, bypassing a software render, but there is generally no need, unless you have many speakers.

If you read My proposal 1 carefully, RSP bypasses the Dolby panner, but also doesn't need to connect to any Dolby renderer cuz RSP makes sound through its own algorithms (alternative/approximation to Dolby renderer), implemented earlier this year. An option is also included to connect to the Dolby renderer (same PC or network PC) if you want accurate Dolby Atmos (DA) sound output. The main point is actually to make Dolby ADM (DDM) files compatible with other Atmos software, you basically "can't Atmos" if you can't DDM. Object panning choices are necessary, hence my detailed proposal & NEW questions to schwa.

Nuendo & Resolve studio are windows apps which may include the Dolby renderer (for accurate DA playback), but are limited to 714 output. No RMW is needed. The Dolby renderer may also be limited to a subset of speaker layouts (RSP internal rendering has no such limitation), use a lot more CPU, and may be much more expensive to license.

- Is making DDM files sufficient + internal RSP audio rendering? (it is for me)
- should Dolby renderer audio rendering inside RPR & RSP be available?
- Would you use the Dolby renderer choice in RPR/RSP if it was available, taking into account differences w/ RSP above?



You can already export 714 files thanks to RSP FX, and you can automate RSP XYZ position. By " Dolby Atmos renders " do you mean DDM files?
Well note that Dolby has Dolby Panner which is totally different package than the Dolby Renderer.

Dolby Panner: small UI and works ONLY on Mac OS
Dolby Renderer: The known UI works on both Mac OS and Windows

The thing is: when you try tu buy the License for the Renderer, in the AVID Shop appears the RMW, hence I thought it was an intermediate stuff
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Old 08-05-2021, 03:03 AM   #28
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Originally Posted by junh1024 View Post
If you read My proposal 1 carefully, RSP bypasses the Dolby panner, but also doesn't need to connect to any Dolby renderer cuz RSP makes sound through its own algorithms (alternative/approximation to Dolby renderer), implemented earlier this year. An option is also included to connect to the Dolby renderer (same PC or network PC) if you want accurate Dolby Atmos (DA) sound output. The main point is actually to make Dolby ADM (DDM) files compatible with other Atmos software, you basically "can't Atmos" if you can't DDM. Object panning choices are necessary, hence my detailed proposal & NEW questions to schwa.

Nuendo & Resolve studio are windows apps which may include the Dolby renderer (for accurate DA playback), but are limited to 714 output. No RMW is needed. The Dolby renderer may also be limited to a subset of speaker layouts (RSP internal rendering has no such limitation), use a lot more CPU, and may be much more expensive to license.

- Is making DDM files sufficient + internal RSP audio rendering? (it is for me)
- should Dolby renderer audio rendering inside RPR & RSP be available?
- Would you use the Dolby renderer choice in RPR/RSP if it was available, taking into account differences w/ RSP above?
Ok this is now more clear to me.
If I correctly now understood, RSP is in a good way and it is much more evolved for this purpose.
The issue will be: Does Dolby accepts it ?
Because the issue is not to create something compatible, but something compatible recognized by Dolby, or the produced files can't be marqueed and declared as Atmos (policy issue)
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Old 08-05-2021, 07:45 AM   #29
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By " Dolby Atmos renders " do you mean DDM files?
Yes, I mean Dolby Atmos compatible/accepted final masters, not just 7.1.4 beds.
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Old 08-05-2021, 09:40 AM   #30
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junh1024 (or anyone), it would be very helpful if you could possibly link to an ADM master for a small project that contains at least one bed and one object.
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Old 08-05-2021, 10:17 AM   #31
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junh1024 (or anyone), it would be very helpful if you could possibly link to an ADM master for a small project that contains at least one bed and one object.
You mean a Dolby Atmos master file right? If yes unfortunately I cannot produce atmos masters at the moment, but it would be great if anyone could upload one.
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Old 08-05-2021, 11:00 AM   #32
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junh1024 (or anyone), it would be very helpful if you could possibly link to an ADM master for a small project that contains at least one bed and one object.
These are not small projects, but they are free to download and study :
https://opencontent.netflix.com

They can be opened in Reaper with the Ear extension.
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Old 08-05-2021, 12:05 PM   #33
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I'm wondering how you'll solve the dillema of every track also having its own processing plugins(eq&dynamics at a minimum).

Wouldn't RSP have to send the pre-pan audio to the RSP Master ? Probably an obvious problem. :\

Btw, some of us have AATranslator and Protools if there's a need for conversion or inspection.
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Old 08-05-2021, 12:19 PM   #34
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These are not small projects, but they are free to download and study :
https://opencontent.netflix.com
Perfect, thanks!
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Old 08-05-2021, 12:21 PM   #35
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Yes, I mean Dolby Atmos compatible/accepted final masters, not just 7.1.4 beds.
I do agree. Atmos without objects it's like "to pee without farting". It's incomplete and useless
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Old 08-05-2021, 01:04 PM   #36
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Originally Posted by jm duchenne View Post
These are not small projects, but they are free to download and study :
https://opencontent.netflix.com
Nice find!
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Old 08-05-2021, 01:05 PM   #37
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Atmos without objects it's like "to pee without farting". It's incomplete and useless
...Still laughing with that one! X-D
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Old 08-05-2021, 01:22 PM   #38
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Wouldn't RSP have to send the pre-pan audio to the RSP Master? Probably an obvious problem.
Good thinking Airon!

If I remember correctly, the signal chain on a Reaper's track is:

FX --> Gain Fader --> Panning

And RSP is an effect that we insert on the track.

Based on the above, and if I understood the Dolby Atmos standard correctly, I'm thinking that the logical thing to do for each track would be to:

1) Send the panning/bed format data from the RSP to the Atmos builder.
2) Send the track's audio to the Atmos builder.

That way both the positioning and the actual stream go together to be authored for Atmos.

Do I miss something?
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Old 08-05-2021, 01:40 PM   #39
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It would be nice if the workflow didn't require any additional plugin instances or context-specific routing.

An example of how it might work:

When rendering to ADM, the first step is a more or less normal render.

If there is no RSP instance on a track that is being rendered, that rendered file is marked as a bed with some default format for that channel count.

If there is an RSP instance, there could be a per-plugin setting that lets you set either a bed format, or mark the inputs as a set of objects. If it's a bed format, the track output is rendered and marked as a bed with that format.

If the RSP instance is marked as a set of objects, the render process sets the plugin into a special mode where some input settings (mute, solo, gain, delay) are applied, but positional parameters are bypassed. The track output is rendered and marked as a set of objects.

Once all of the individual tracks are rendered, an ADM building pass compiles the various channels from the individual track renders into a single ADM master, along with the appropriate ADM metadata. For objects, the metadata would include the RSP position parameter settings and automation that was intentionally not printed into the audio output.

There are a few constraints that would need to be enforced. For RSP object tracks, it might not be possible to represent output parameter settings (per-speaker gain, etc), the RSP instance would have to be the last FX in the chain, and there couldn't be any further routing of the track output. Plus no doubt a bunch of other things. But as a general workflow, this seems fairly straightforward.
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Old 08-05-2021, 01:47 PM   #40
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Schwa, the workflow/pipeline you describe is spot on.

And also, if additional routing or any other custom signal flow is required, we could do it outside of the track that features the RSP. For example, put a track as a child to a parent and then use the parent for Atmos work.

This is an excellent proposition.
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