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View Poll Results: Does Reaper need more MIDI love?
Yes, and I use MIDI a lot 111 76.55%
No, and I use MIDI a lot 13 8.97%
Yes, and I don't use MIDI much or at all 11 7.59%
No, and I don't use MIDI much or at all 10 6.90%
Voters: 145. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 06-28-2010, 03:06 PM   #81
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cover up, your projection is showing.
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Old 06-28-2010, 03:10 PM   #82
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I'm not sure what a 'no' vote would be saying ...that the MIDI should never be developed further ever again? I doubt there could be many people who would take that stance, and I doubt that was the OPs intention. So, like everything else, perhaps its a matter of balance and priorities ...which is obviously a fertile area for user feedback on what each of us individually would lke. Good stuff.

However, these conversations can sometimes degrade into a back and forth between conflicting views along the theme of "I have a better understanding of what the majority of users want than anyone else" ...which can derail the very valuable individual perspectives. So lets try to dodge that.

FWIW I have seen people doing things with Reaper's MIDI that have blown my tiny mind. So I can say for sure that, for at least a couple of people out there, Reaper's MIDI is the boss. So... a spectrum of opinion!
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Old 06-28-2010, 03:19 PM   #83
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Personally I've find Reaper maybe not streamlined in a conventional sense, but creatively, I'm astounded. I really dont have enough good things to say about Reaper. What may be un-intuitive to some, to me is often a brilliant feature. So as I've said all along, sure there's more that can be done, but I stand by Reaper's quirks and uniquenesses as well. Alsol, I stand by the dev. team, and am grateful for what has already been accomplished.
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Old 06-28-2010, 03:20 PM   #84
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I'm not sure what a 'no' vote would be saying ...that the MIDI should never be developed further ever again? I doubt there could be many people who would take that stance, and I doubt that was the OPs intention. So, like everything else, perhaps its a matter of balance and priorities ...which is obviously a fertile area for user feedback on what each of us individually would lke. Good stuff.
Well as far as what a "NO" vote signifies is -- (since I was the OP)

YES --> Reaper needs more love, more features, more attention than it has been getting, and MIDI features need more priority than they've been getting

NO --> Midi in Reaper is getting the appropriate amount of attention relative to other features and doesn't need to be upped on the priority list

DF
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Old 06-28-2010, 03:20 PM   #85
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Exactly. People should be able to share their thoughts and I've been sharing mine about reaper.

When JBM tries to label people who don't like Reaper's midi implementation, as merely "pissy", it's a smear campaign and thread-jacking. We don't need that kind of behavior on the forums, there is a chat room for that I think.

DF
I didn't take JBM's comment as labeling anyone based on their suggestions (or dislikes) regarding midi implementation, but rather calling out the behavior around the opinion. Is it justified to get personal and accuse REAPER's developers of "not wanting to adapt" as part of "sharing our thoughts" about the product? Please, no offense, but when one person makes it personal it opens the door for others to do the same. The truth is the bulk of REAPER's changes and advances that have been made have come from the feature request threads posted by users. They are very responsive overall, and I'm sure they'll work on this area, too, if they get the right information to be able to make changes that will ultimately be appreciated and useful.

So far in reading through this thread, I've only seen that REAPER is weak in this area and that some figure the dev's simply don't care. Other than wishing REAPER would be more like some other program, I've seen very few actual suggestions that the devs could use to implement improvements. Personally, I don't think making REAPER like some other program is a solution, because that other program already exists so may as well use it instead. Rather, let's work together to make REAPER the best there is in all areas.

What I DO know about REAPER's developers is that if users can clearly define a feature that they want to see, then discus that feature, then post a feature request for that clearly-defined feature and get the support and agreement from more REAPER users, they are very responsive to such thing. Simply saying "XYZ program does it better", "REAPER sucks in this area", or "I wish REAPER did it like XYZ program" isn't enough to get the devs or the rest of the users on board with implementing a new change since there's no clear definition of exactly what needs changed.

BUT

If we can clearly define what an ideal hardware midi track would look like, and gain a consensus from several users, then I have no doubt that we'll see a positive response.

In the mean time, some of these guys who are really good with mapping controls and creating track templates can probably help create some work-arounds that can be used until the changes can be installed in the system. It's easy enough for someone to post their track template since it's saved as a file, right? So if FNG comes on the forum and say's, "hey, is there a way to make REAPER do _____?" it'll be very easy for those aware of the posted template to point them to it... and when it's perfected, it'll then be really easy for the devs to make it a permanent part of REAPER with the other details that can make it even better (such as redefining the track fader, or hiding them altogether)...
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Old 06-28-2010, 03:29 PM   #86
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Hrrm well -- I think that features that basically EVERY hardware or daw midi sequencer has -- like having the PatchName on the Track -- should be in reaper.

When EVERY single daw has this or that feature, then it probably is there for a reason.

There are pretty common feature requests that have been going on for a long time -- notation editing, quantize without having to open the midi editor, ghosting without having to put it in a file, etc etc etc.

I don't think saying "they don't want to adapt" is really all that bad.

Look, people could (and do) criticize photoshop, microsoft, apple, etc, for not improving the workflow or adding the features that people want.

PS is as good an example of any as a program that doesn't adapt to the users, it just adds more features.

I think one has to have a reasonably thick skin and take things the way they are intended.

My opinion is, they haven't adapted the program (that much) to suit midi users, they've added in third party JS to bridge the gaps that the program is lacking.

That is a far cry from labeling someone as "pissy", which I have not done.

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Old 06-28-2010, 03:29 PM   #87
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thanks Brian. Glad someone understood
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Old 06-28-2010, 03:35 PM   #88
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If we can clearly define what an ideal hardware midi track would look like, and gain a consensus from several users, then I have no doubt that we'll see a positive response.
This makes a lot of sense although I don't know what hardware has to do with it. I would instead say:

"If we can clearly define what an ideal midi track and editor would look like, and gain a consensus from several users, then I have no doubt that we'll see a positive response."

Heh heh, of course that doesn't say it all but I think the meaning is correct.
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Old 06-28-2010, 03:37 PM   #89
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thanks Brian. Glad someone understood
What I understand is you appearing to be attempting to dissuade people from sharing their thoughts in this area lest they be labelled as "pissy".

I think it's quite rude and unfair, and I trust people will continue to share their opinions in this area and not be put off by this gambit.

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Old 06-28-2010, 03:40 PM   #90
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"If we can clearly define what an ideal midi track and editor would look like, and gain a consensus from several users, then I have no doubt that we'll see a positive response."
Although I think feature design by consensus can work, one has to have a reasonably balanced sample set to do that.

I also think that feature design often gets done by fiat, by an expert in the subject at the company.

That's why I feel my most positive and actionable suggestion is to bring on a dev who is really into midi, both to do features by fiat and to coordinate user request surveys.

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Old 06-28-2010, 03:45 PM   #91
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midi specific track: do not want. will not happen.


additional and refined midi functionality: do want. is happening.
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Old 06-28-2010, 03:45 PM   #92
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What I understand is you appearing to be attempting to dissuade people from sharing their thoughts in this area lest they be labelled as "pissy".

I think it's quite rude and unfair, and I trust people will continue to share their opinions in this area and not be put off by this gambit.

DF
if i can dissuade people from being "pissy" then fine. that is my intention...

opinions on changing reaper's midi workflow are great~!!! I have a bunch myself, you know.
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Old 06-28-2010, 03:51 PM   #93
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if i can dissuade people from being "pissy" then fine. that is my intention...

opinions on changing reaper's midi workflow are great~!!! I have a bunch myself, you know.
If that's your intention, then quote who is being pissy. Frankly I didn't see any such behavior until you showed up, with the possible exception of the Godwin issue.

It seems you are unhappy that I'm on the forum and are trying to drag me into a fight.

Sorry, I don't play those games.

You could label anyone who has a complaint about reaper as "pissy". It adds no value and doesn't reflect well on you.


DF
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Old 06-28-2010, 03:52 PM   #94
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I think "does reaper need more midi love" , is a different subject then "do reaper devs. respond to the reaper community"? That's why I've felt at time the need to say "look at what we got", just to be sure to show respect and appreciation to the developers. I've seen in most posts, most people get heard best when they communicate clearly, with a positive attitude. If that can be maintained then surely things will just get better, yes?
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Old 06-28-2010, 03:55 PM   #95
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I think "does reaper need more midi love" , is a different subject then "do reaper devs. respond to the reaper community"? That's why I've felt at time the need to say "look at what we got", just to be sure to show respect and appreciation to the developers. I've seen in most posts, most people get heard best when they communicate clearly, with a positive attitude. If that can be maintained then surely things will just get better, yes?
Do reaper devs respond to the community? I don't know -- but let's say the answer is yes

Does the community want better midi? They seem to, based on the polling

Will the devs respond to it? I don't know. We'll see I guess

DF
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Old 06-28-2010, 03:59 PM   #96
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If that's your intention, then quote who is being pissy. Frankly I didn't see any such behavior until you showed up, with the possible exception of the Godwin issue.

It seems you are unhappy that I'm on the forum and are trying to drag me into a fight.

Sorry, I don't play those games.

You could label anyone who has a complaint about reaper as "pissy". It adds no value and doesn't reflect well on you.


DF
1. you are the one fighting with me, assuming much, and you continue to respond to me.

2. I could label anyone who has a complaint about reaper as pissy, but i havent.

done yet?
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Old 06-28-2010, 04:01 PM   #97
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Oh guys just take it to the chatroom or whatever
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Old 06-28-2010, 04:03 PM   #98
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Oh guys just take it to the chatroom or whatever
he cant, he's banned


however, I can stop responding, no sense in beating this dead horse.

MIDI has several threads devoted to it, if you dont like reaper for what it is now, I really think you should probably find something else, or try to work around what is already there. The devs have demonstrably listened to the community, whilst also following their own vision. This is admirable to me.
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Old 06-28-2010, 04:09 PM   #99
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Nice another way to try to make me look bad while working in brown nosing to the devs.

+1 for style

Few if any people on the chat use Midi anyway, no great loss there.


DF
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Old 06-28-2010, 04:14 PM   #100
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Darth man, seriously, most people are being civil and exchanging ideas. not to point the finger, but lighten up man

peace
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Old 06-28-2010, 04:15 PM   #101
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Standing by to lock on request.
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Old 06-28-2010, 04:16 PM   #102
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Darth man, seriously, most people are being civil and exchanging ideas. not to point the finger, but lighten up man

peace
I am lightened up. You're right most people are being civil and exchanging ideas.

Only one person has used bathroom insults. Guess who that was?

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Old 06-28-2010, 04:26 PM   #103
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Oh for crying out loud, what is this.........KVR
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Old 06-28-2010, 04:31 PM   #104
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Oh for crying out loud, what is this.........KVR
This kinda crossed my mind, too. XD
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Old 06-28-2010, 04:34 PM   #105
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Deja Vu.

The problem with the recurring midi conversation is that when you really love something, like many really love Reaper, it's hard to hear people knock it. Face it, Reaper is basically a virtual instrument sequencer. It will never be (imo) a full-fledged pro sequencer that covers all of the bases of a Cubase or Acid or Sonar across the board.

I don't even think the majority target audience needs those things with midi so it may be counterproductive for the devs to focus too much on it. For me the workarounds with midi (my expectations of some things that should be, in any pro sequencer, but aren't) are just too much to bear so I just stopped trying to sequence in it.

Anyway, my answer to the question is one that isn't in the poll ... "only if a majority of target users want it". Need is (afaik) determined by demand/want... I don't want a Hummer so there's no need for one ... and the demand for those things has never been high enough in the user base to drive that change. It's really a small minority that want those things so I gave up on it some time ago.

So use FLStudio or Cubase LE or something to sequence if it bugs you that much. Like J said, if they aren't moving that way, use something else for sequencing.

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Old 06-28-2010, 04:41 PM   #106
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+1 on more midi love.

Having said that, i like that you can do multiple takes recording midi easily in reaper while finding the same in other daws clunky or nonexistant.
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Old 06-28-2010, 04:46 PM   #107
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+1 on more midi love.

Having said that, i like that you can do multiple takes recording midi easily in reaper while finding the same in other daws clunky or nonexistant.
There you go. Kinda makes my initial point. I don't know of a single professional midi sequencer (key word professional) where multiple take midi is non-existent. May be though. But you gotta rag on some other product (not sure what product that is) whenever you admit a flaw in Reaper.

It's kinda required.

Last edited by Lawrence; 06-28-2010 at 04:51 PM.
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Old 06-28-2010, 04:52 PM   #108
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Deja Vu.

The problem with the recurring midi conversation is that when you really love something, like many really love Reaper, it's hard to hear people knock it. Face it, Reaper is basically a virtual instrument sequencer. It will never be (imo) a full-fledged pro sequencer that covers all of the bases of a Cubase or Acid or Sonar across the board.

I don't even think the majority target audience needs those things with midi so it may be counterproductive for the devs to focus too much on it. For me the workarounds with midi (my expectations of some things that should be, in any pro sequencer, but aren't) are just too much to bear so I just stopped trying to sequence in it.

Anyway, my answer to the question is one that isn't in the poll ... "only if a majority of target users want it". Need is (afaik) determined by demand/want... I don't want a Hummer so there's no need for one ... and the demand for those things has never been high enough in the user base to drive that change. It's really a small minority that want those things so I gave up on it some time ago.

So use FLStudio or Cubase LE or something to sequence if it bugs you that much. Like J said, if they aren't moving that way, use something else for sequencing.
I dunno Lawrence, I have disagree. I feel that reaper IS the perfect candidate to be a "full fledged" sequencer. With the genius that is behind it, I can't can't see any reason why in reasonable time, it can be right there!

I also can't agree with the "go use another" point. I think we reaper users are sick of those "others". I also think we are patient bunch and feel pretty good about the "timeline" for things. But it's healthy to ask about this (- the flamebaiting)
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Old 06-28-2010, 04:55 PM   #109
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I dunno Lawrence, I have disagree. I feel that reaper IS the perfect candidate to be a "full fledged" sequencer. With the genius that is behind it, I can't can't see any reason why in reasonable time, it can be right there!
I didn't suggest they couldn't do it. I suggested they have may no interest in doing some those things that have been on the FR board for years. Let's not twist this into something it's not.

I suggested that the user base uses VSTI's and Reaper's midi focuses on those users. OTOH there are people out there who use lots of hardware, some only mostly hardware, and in my humble opinion a "full fledged pro sequencer" should be very good at both things. Most of them are... of the top 3 anyway.

So my comment was not to say they "couldn't" do it. I know they "can" do it. I just don't think they will do it ... since the vast majority user base doesn't really want it or even need it.

Sure they can do it. No doubt. JCS can code most anything I think.

I'm going back to the midi lurker peanut gallery...

Last edited by Lawrence; 06-28-2010 at 05:02 PM.
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Old 06-28-2010, 05:05 PM   #110
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ok i'm not really sure bout non existant, fl studio you prob can. But take ableton. piano roll is simple robust etc, it can do multiple takes but really clunky. after recording multiple takes in ableton it just rolls it out as 1 midi file and you have to fuss around cutting out what you want to keep. With reaper it treats midi multiple takes the same as it does with audio, i like it and use it alot.
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Old 06-28-2010, 05:09 PM   #111
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Personally I dont feel there is really any serious lacking in Reaper. I've been able to use hardware devices no problem - even save the channel config. Running a ProTools HD3 system, which is great for recording bands, it doesn't even touch Reaper in any way shape or form for my own personal production . Admitedly, I will still record bands in ProTools, but for electronic music production, Reaper makes PT seem just silly.
And there lies the discrepency for me. For what Reaper is, no I wouldn't use it as a "professional hard disk recorder". Is it wicked for making electronic tunes? - for me - there is no other!

do i want Reaper to do what ProTools is already doing for me - not at all

maybe some other want this, and i could see why,

for me though there is no issue - reaper is the mega-solid powerhouse sampler\sequencer from the future,

that's what i love about it
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Old 06-28-2010, 05:13 PM   #112
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Phasers on stun. Lock in positions. Stand by. Ready to fire.

pfffffffffffffffffffffft.

Reaper is great. MIDI should not change, except to make it superior to its competitors.

The devs love JBM. Darth is banned from chat? He seems so nice...

Okay, lock the thread, quick!
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Old 06-28-2010, 05:22 PM   #113
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MIDI should not change, except to make it superior to its competitors.
Superior to the competitors sounds great.

At this point I'd settle for just equaling it's competitors tho.

It'd have to get to that point so then it could be superior.

I'll have to download the cakewalk demo it sounds like.....unfortunate this is.

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Old 06-28-2010, 05:26 PM   #114
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Good luck with Cakewalk. All the best.
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Old 06-28-2010, 05:29 PM   #115
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i've been using the MIDI a lot in reaper, and personally i don't really miss anything except a tracker-style interface for bashing out beats quickly - and NOTHING else has that, except like FL or Buzz.

this is both in standalone, pure-MIDI tracks, and also adding lots of MIDI to recorded stuff.

having said that, i wouldn't recommend reaper to someone who wasn't going to be using it for recording audio. there are probably better dedicated MIDI tools out there.

i think there are a lot of more worthy

i mean, hell, MIDI in reaper is better than where Pro Tools was up to about v7 or so (if not better in a number of ways).
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Old 06-28-2010, 05:32 PM   #116
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Good luck with Cakewalk. All the best.
Well I'm not real optimistic about CW.

But I'm just tired of cubase bloat and dongle stuff.

I'll at least have to try it out and see how it is these days, although I'm open to other recommendations.

I do midi + audio so prefer something that is equally adept at both.

VST3 support would be a nice to have but I think only cubase supports it.

DF
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Old 06-28-2010, 05:33 PM   #117
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i've been using the MIDI a lot in reaper, and personally i don't really miss anything except a tracker-style interface for bashing out beats quickly -).
I've had renoise rewire very well. You prolly know about that tracker plugin too hey - Windows only - (im OSX) - man that'd sick though
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Old 06-28-2010, 05:42 PM   #118
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I've had renoise rewire very well. You prolly know about that tracker plugin too hey - Windows only - (im OSX) - man that'd sick though
yeah, i mucked around with a few options but i want to use something fully integrated in the reaper timeline (so i can hack bits around).

it's not a biggie for me, but i am a lot faster with tracker interfaces, so it'd be nice for a MIDI editor API or something one day so i can have a shot at building an integrated tracker editor for MIDI data...
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Old 06-28-2010, 07:18 PM   #119
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I think most of the negative reactions i see people have, are people just not wanting to adapt. I keep seeimg people saying things in the line of - we dont want innovation, we want want were used to. WHAT IS THAT! Then go back to cubase. There's so much wicked innovation in Reaper, all's one has to do is jump in, stop hating on minor issues, and make some music -
you call it innovation, i call it incompetence and annoyance.

it isn't not wanting to adapt - shit is missing!!!!!!!! how do i adapt to that? oh well, i can't do that, too bad for me?

i know what i want to do, and i will adapt IF reaper can do it as well or better. if reaper does it worse and makes me struggle, then it sucks. and making me click to see stuff that should be visible anyway just plain sucks.

and stop with the condescending talk denigrating these midi problems to "minor" issues, you dick, they are MAJOR issues.
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Old 06-28-2010, 07:23 PM   #120
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Originally Posted by osranakurwa View Post
and stop with the condescending talk denigrating these midi problems to "minor" issues, you dick, they are MAJOR issues.
whoa dude!
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