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View Poll Results: Would you like an themer's haven?
Cool idea! 26 74.29%
No, I need to punish themers in public if they don't deliver what I demand 9 25.71%
Voters: 35. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 05-06-2013, 03:50 AM   #1
Unox
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Default Walter's Kitchen, a rehearsal place for themers

Hi all,

Remember working in a big studio with a band and some giggling GFs who were brought along for the fun?

Session begins, everybody works hard, solos are being dubbed in the control room, but one of the GF's talks continuously and loud enough to get above the monitors. And she's a nice person, but a bit daft since she simply cannot respect that we need our ears to hear our work, and not her streaming information about her throbbing bodily functions.

We invite those people to leave. We explain -politely- that a control room is an environment where ideas are being born and loved into live, and that we need our ears and heads to concentrate on just those ideas, and rather not on your troubles with life in general and your heavy period at this very moment. Please take these king size bars of crunchy chocolate and a comfy seat behind the PlayStation in the canteen: problem solved.

I would like to see such an environment for themers here.

a Protected Control Room, a Kitchen where themers can co-op and build and build and build. With a storage room with all kinds of theming elements to pick and choose from, and with -my personal suggestion- an added security button under everybodyís avatar on that forum; a button with a pair of specs.

That 'specs' button does a neat trick if somebody starts being a d*ck on the forum. When clicked upon those specs by at least three fellow themers, the forum software turns the buzzkiller into a non-posting spectator and deletes the harmful entry. After convincing apologies -or mediation if desired- all users involved need to d-click the buzzkillerís glasses so he/she can rejoin the conversation. And if you keep on being a d*ck (lets say three times and you're out), its adios from the kitchen and you can be broodily misunderstood at the regular themersforum.

Because:

Enthusiastic beginners hesitate to ask 'stupid' questions for answers they need to be able to continue. When you're a tad insecure about your work and brawluser X comments in detail after a few drinks that the stoobid noob could better start decorating the insides of a toiletbowl, arrrrrrrharharhar, well, then we have successfully discouraged yet another Reapertheme and scared the creative away.

It seems that Walter is being looked upon as having this big ego that can handle abuse. Clearly this misconception is toxic for anyone with a creative mind.

Hence I suggest a PW-protected subforum for themers, 'Walter's Kitchen', with the added possibility for the creatives to shunt disturbing behavior of any kind

Like every kitchen Walter has sanity rules: Behave like an aggressive buzzkiller and your fellowthemers can kick you out. And you have to ask them nicely if you can come back.

Thanks for considering,
Nick Mulder (aka Unox)

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Old 05-06-2013, 03:54 AM   #2
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Sounds great to me! +1
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Old 05-06-2013, 04:10 AM   #3
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is there really that much disturbing behaviour regarding the discussion of walter that we need a password protected forum? seems silly here and a reason to have less themers by locking them out.

seems like a solution looking for a problem for people with thin skin
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Old 05-06-2013, 04:39 AM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Coachz View Post
is there really that much disturbing behaviour regarding the discussion of walter that we need a password protected forum? seems silly here and a reason to have less themers by locking them out.

seems like a solution looking for a problem for people with thin skin
Some people with thin skins make great themes. And its just a kitchen, everybody can join the meal once served.

If you for some reason dislike people with thin skins that much, then by all means vote option 2.
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Old 05-06-2013, 07:11 AM   #5
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dislike people with thin skins ? hahah that's funny

Also the 2nd option in your voting will skew the results because it assumes that if we don't want the private area that we are aggressive. Bad poll too.

Maybe change the 2nd option to "Please kill a kitten in my name" :-)
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Old 05-06-2013, 07:58 AM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Coachz View Post
dislike people with thin skins ? hahah that's funny

Also the 2nd option in your voting will skew the results because it assumes that if we don't want the private area that we are aggressive. Bad poll too.

Maybe change the 2nd option to "Please kill a kitten in my name" :-)
So you propose themers should stop whining and get on with their work?
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Old 05-06-2013, 08:06 AM   #7
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People will put in vast amounts of time and effort for a community that they love. A beautiful aspect of human nature. What kills the love? All kinds of things, none of which are even slightly negotiable, people feel what they feel. Socially oblivious arseholes giving you a hard time, certainly, but maybe that's just the most obvious indicator of a something bigger and more subtle.

Consider this...

--------

Go and have a look at the members of the V4 Theme Team. Other than me, how many of them ever themed again? How long since any of them were ever seen around here?

--------

...consider that. Just have a think about it. That's really sad, right?

Would a smaller community of themers (we need them) and committed and rigorous theme testers (we really need them too) be a community that those involved would find it easier to love? Perhaps. Do we need to try something? I think perhaps we do. Perhaps. What is a much bigger question, but I applaud Unox for kicking it off.
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Old 05-06-2013, 08:37 AM   #8
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the reaper theme subforum is obscure enough innit?
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Old 05-06-2013, 08:42 AM   #9
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From a newbee themer, anything that can promote themeing I'm all for. I'm working on one right now - solely for my own use - and would love to see how things get done.

I think that right now, the environment makes it harsh for people to share especially in process etc stuff. As a beginner, this affect me as there are some areas that are rather complicated, and I'd love to 'lurk' and catch some tips.

(I do appreciate the resource out there though, White Tie's 'WALTER : A themer's guide' was essential in getting me started).
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Old 05-06-2013, 08:53 AM   #10
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It kind of begs the question:

Why leak out info on an incomplete theme in the first place?

The fourm is a great place to get info to help those like myself that just want to make a theme to meet their needs, as well as a great place to release it, and if you like to take requests on adding this and that.

But giving a sneak peek of unfinished work is kind of like asking 'what do you think?' and you have to expect that there will be criticism that isn't all that positive.

I understand that there is a fair bit of work that goes into the themes, and that themers might be enthusiastic about displaying their work, but wait until version 1 is complete and ready for prime time before doing so. Otherwise, you are going to get more of the same.
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Old 05-06-2013, 09:08 AM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Andy Hamm View Post
I understand that there is a fair bit of work that goes into the themes, and that themers might be enthusiastic about displaying their work, but wait until version 1 is complete and ready for prime time before doing so. Otherwise, you are going to get more of the same.
Seem's like a catch 22 here: you show a theme after it's 'done' and people make comments that you can't incorporate without a ton of rework, or you understand subtitles that make the request tough. So you get criticism, or worse ...

Or you show it early in the hopes of getting input, and people get upset because it's taking so long.....
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Old 05-06-2013, 09:18 AM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Andy Hamm View Post
It kind of begs the question:

Why leak out info on an incomplete theme in the first place?

The fourm is a great place to get info to help those like myself that just want to make a theme to meet their needs, as well as a great place to release it, and if you like to take requests on adding this and that.

But giving a sneak peek of unfinished work is kind of like asking 'what do you think?' and you have to expect that there will be criticism that isn't all that positive.

I understand that there is a fair bit of work that goes into the themes, and that themers might be enthusiastic about displaying their work, but wait until version 1 is complete and ready for prime time before doing so. Otherwise, you are going to get more of the same.
Burn him, burn him now, he is being just a little too logical hahaha
OK i shall give you something to hate me for, most people who yell "Why you pick on my themer god" or some other silly crap, are idiots
Any themer that posts a mock up and then gets itchy because some body asks if they could possibly actually finish and post some themes in the theme forum (thats right a forum for themes, or theme questions, not look at my pretend shiny shiny forum) IDIOT
I can actually go to posts where a particular person has called names because he didn't like a theme and then went on to state that he would be releasing blah and blah, which unsurprisingly never happened, oh and now is one of the people that jumps on anybody who says "Just finish your damn theme"
but hey he is one of the good guys hahaha
You do not need a password protected forum, you just need a forum for mock ups (look at my fake shiny shiny forum), actually you know what even better, just make a sub forum where "Themer gods" can post anything they want and no matter what you reply it just always posts "You are number one, the sun shines right out of your kazoo" maybe that will make them happy.

Right, now that you hate me, lets look at reality here
1 This is the internet
2 People are on the internet
3 This is the internet
4 You are on the internet
5 This is the internet
6 People can say what they want on the internet
7 This is the internet
8 You can choose to ignore people on the internet
9 This is the internet
10 GROW UP

Hopefully that helps "Themer gods" to stop shoving fake shiny shiny (Yep shiny shiny is 100% going to make people drool and act like asstards) in peoples faces

Disclaimer
I have never and will never use anybody else themes, non of theme work for me and i have since the day the ability was available made my own theme, it fits me and i never have to ask anybody to fix it or work on it, great huh, get the idea ? thats right, make your own damn theme and stop whining
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Old 05-06-2013, 09:24 AM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Andy Hamm View Post
It kind of begs the question:

Why leak out info on an incomplete theme in the first place?
Sure; that's a very fair question.

Its really quite a small chunk of the work involved making a theme to do the initial appearance. It is at that point that its worth knowing whether there's any appetite for it before you commit to the vast swathes of (some of it not-so-fun) time building out the working theme. Also, if people are excited by your initial work, that can indeed contribute some enthusiasm to get you through the boring bit.

Alternatively, I suppose it could be that the themer is just whoring for praise, as is sometimes suggested. Could be, but I very very much doubt it.
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Old 05-06-2013, 09:39 AM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gpunk_w View Post
10 GROW UP

Hopefully that helps "Themer gods" to stop shoving fake shiny shiny (Yep shiny shiny is 100% going to make people drool and act like asstards) in peoples faces
..and there's the raging QED, just in time.


To all you adults: in this old thread you can taste the atmosphere that once made this forum a cynic-free, inspirational environment:

http://forum.cockos.com/showthread.php?t=43062

..with the help of the community I could present my first theme:

http://forum.cockos.com/showthread.php?t=45610

Great time I spent here.
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Old 05-06-2013, 10:00 AM   #15
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I voted no. There is already a "Report Post" feature and Moderators typically have the power to remove posts or ban as needed. It's not rocket surgery folks...
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Old 05-06-2013, 10:54 AM   #16
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+1 for a subforum dedicated to communal theming.

I'm not sure it needs a moderation system like that though. Maybe just a subforum with moderation delegated to a couple of active themers/forumers.
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Old 05-06-2013, 11:03 AM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tomm View Post
I voted no. There is already a "Report Post" feature and Moderators typically have the power to remove posts or ban as needed. It's not rocket surgery folks...
But looking at the current state, the mods don't go against freedom of speech, ofcourse.

But there is no freedom of speech in a vocalbooth when a singer tries a take and you standig next to her saying stuff like: "Can you really sing with such a stupid shirt on? Ah, you just missed that note. Pity you aren't talented enough. Ouch, your breath! It really stinks!! Hey, why just call it a day and try a different profession? No, not prostitution, or maybe just the blind tricks."

Predatory, cynical buzzkillers. There are meds -oxytocin- that can make them feel a bit human again, but none of that has anything to do with us beeing able to theme our way to our goal without all these social zombies feeding on every positive thought they can find along the process.
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Old 05-06-2013, 11:17 AM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by White Tie View Post
....
Would a smaller community of themers (we need them) and committed and rigorous theme testers (we really need them too) be a community that those involved would find it easier to love? Perhaps. Do we need to try something? I think perhaps we do. Perhaps. What is a much bigger question, but I applaud Unox for kicking it off.
Other idea: Aren't there any hidden staff-forums here?

Invisible for us common users? If so, that could be a really simple solution! Give themers with both artistic and (healthy) social communicationskills the proper permissions and away we go!

We present the alpha's and beta's on the public forum and let the ragers rage, but they cannot sabotage the infant creative process anymore!
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Old 05-06-2013, 11:18 AM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Unox View Post
But there is no freedom of speech in a vocalbooth when a singer tries a take and you standig next to her saying stuff like: [ ... ]
But that's not really comparable to what happens here.

Why didn't you feel it was necessary to attempt to fairly represent both 'reasonable' sides of the discussion with your poll?

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Old 05-06-2013, 11:41 AM   #20
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But that's not really comparable to what happens here.

Why didn't you feel it was necessary to attempt to fairly represent both 'reasonable' sides of the discussion with your poll?
Cos it was -ofcourse- a bit of humor.

There is no reason in cynisism, just a traumatized, lonely romantic. And if they cant be happy, nobody is allowed to. a Goal they work hard to achieve.
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Old 05-06-2013, 11:54 AM   #21
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Here's what I think should happen:



:P
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Old 05-06-2013, 11:58 AM   #22
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honestly, i think some walter videos would go a long way to bringing more themers into the fold if anyone was up for that
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Old 05-06-2013, 12:21 PM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Unox View Post
Hi all,

Remember working in a big studio with a band and some giggling GFs who were brought along for the fun?

Session begins, everybody works hard, solos are being dubbed in the control room, but one of the GF's talks continuously and loud enough to get above the monitors. And she's a nice person, but a bit daft since she simply cannot respect that we need our ears to hear our work, and not her streaming information about her throbbing bodily functions.

We invite those people to leave. We explain -politely- that a control room is an environment where ideas are being born and loved into live, and that we need our ears and heads to concentrate on just those ideas, and rather not on your troubles with life in general and your heavy period at this very moment. Please take these king size bars of crunchy chocolate and a comfy seat behind the PlayStation in the canteen: problem solved.
What a strange way to introduce a poll that presumably is open to all REAPER users.

-Susan
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Old 05-06-2013, 12:41 PM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by White Tie View Post
Sure; that's a very fair question.

Its really quite a small chunk of the work involved making a theme to do the initial appearance. It is at that point that its worth knowing whether there's any appetite for it before you commit to the vast swathes of (some of it not-so-fun) time building out the working theme. Also, if people are excited by your initial work, that can indeed contribute some enthusiasm to get you through the boring bit.

Alternatively, I suppose it could be that the themer is just whoring for praise, as is sometimes suggested. Could be, but I very very much doubt it.
+1 ....according to 100% .... and all that add constructive criticism of the community that often help to advance the theme.....

.....to launch an alpha version has to be fully functional ... (buttons, knobs, etc.).....and for that it takes much more time to do a million things before.... particularly the ultimate idea (worked in the mockup)...



sorry for my english

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Old 05-06-2013, 01:24 PM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Unox View Post
Other idea: Aren't there any hidden staff-forums here?

Invisible for us common users? If so, that could be a really simple solution! Give themers with both artistic and (healthy) social communicationskills the proper permissions and away we go!

We present the alpha's and beta's on the public forum and let the ragers rage, but they cannot sabotage the infant creative process anymore!
Why not just create a website with forums for this very purpose? Somehow I doubt it will turn out like you expect if it was integrated here. Separate is more controllable, not as integrated - but that's also a positive.
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Old 05-06-2013, 01:31 PM   #26
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I can't really believe that there are butt-plugs out there who make a thread like this relevant.

On top of everything else Reaper is, there are awesome people out there making it even more beautiful and operational than it already is.

For us all to use, and appreciate.

Which is not to say we must fawn over these people, but to hold them to our own expectations and demands is utterly mad.

All I can say to those themers dealing with the pricks - There are probably thousands of us happily using and loving your themes!
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Old 05-06-2013, 03:15 PM   #27
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All I can say to those themers dealing with the pricks - There are probably thousands of us happily using and loving your themes!
We know, but it's about the very fragile process of creating a theme in the midst of this forum.

I myself had a wonderful themingexperience here, couple of years ago everybody was just friendly and generally happy here.

But cynics can't stand inspired people. Since the beginning of a theme is very vulnerable inspirationwise, the cynics will try to make it ridiculous, and if succesful, the ideas dies off along with the motivation. Pretty cruel.

Themers don't like their ideas beeing killed off by cynics who, lonely and deprived from social warmth they may be, instinctively search and destroy everything of infant beauty.
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Old 05-06-2013, 03:21 PM   #28
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What a strange way to introduce a poll that presumably is open to all REAPER users.

-Susan
Studios can be pretty strange, just as its inhabitants.

Does anyone has the url of those studiostories that went on a couple of years ago? There was this thread somewere (DUC?) were all techs shared their weirdest experiences. Hunderds of pages with great, great stories.

Tech over talkback: "Can you hear yourself in your cans?" Singer: (while taking her cans off and holding the right can in front of her mouth) "Yeah!"
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Old 05-06-2013, 03:57 PM   #29
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Everything about Reaper seems pretty open - human readable configuration files, issue tracker, public betas, jesusonic, themes, reascript, compiled extensions, the way forum is moderated...the whole community is pretty much wide open to anyone to explore, learn, share, use...

So creating a special forum for special people to do special stuff seems kinda out of the place with the current paradigm.

I can see why some people can be bothered by other people comments, but I feel it really isn't a Reaper way to divide and exclude.
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Old 05-06-2013, 04:25 PM   #30
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Quote:
Enthusiastic beginners hesitate to ask 'stupid' questions for answers they need to be able to continue. When you're a tad insecure about your work and brawluser X comments in detail after a few drinks that the stoobid noob could better start decorating the insides of a toiletbowl, arrrrrrrharharhar, well, then we have successfully discouraged yet another Reapertheme and scared the creative away.
Sorry, as is life, this comes with the territory when creating anything. It's no different than being a musician. "Hey man, like my new tune?" .. "No it sucks donkey balls". He who runs away licking his wounds, never to return isn't cut out for the job. I'm not applauding it, I'm describing it as it exists.

It requires MORE than just being creative just like succeeding as a musician requires more than just being able to play. It's a seemingly cruel fact of life and it is an absolute requirement to be able to deal with it simply because those who succeed, can deal with it. FWIW, I have never trashed a theme or themer.

At my very first "big time" opening gig (if you could call it that) 20 years ago, the guitarist in the main act told me... "Anyone can be a musician but the business has a funny way of weeding out the weaklings" That statement at first sounded cruel and condescending then I realized over time that he was absolutely correct.
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Old 05-06-2013, 06:19 PM   #31
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perhaps a subforum where you have to submit a working theme to enter.

then at least everyone in there will know what it takes to make a theme.

i remember a rehearsal where i had arranged the horn section parts for bowies "lets dance" and the guitarist is like "no no no the 1st note the bass sax plays is Eb, its an eb chord" and im trying to explain that the bari sax actually starts on the 3rd (g) and then goes 5th 7th root up an octave and THEN slides down the the root.

its the bass guitar that starts on the root and they probably didnt want bari to double that right off the bat cause it would be so muddy.

and he gets all pissy. and he would do one of these things at every rehearsal and every time he was wrong.

"youre missing that sax part in space oddity"

it was a stylophone

"wrong note in rock and roll suicide"

guitar playing wrong chord.

and that was all because he never learned arranging for horns, and had never attempted a horn chart.

many times i felt like saying dude write the charts yourself then but i instead wait for the rest of the band to clue him in.

we do have some of all those kinds here.

if you want themes that look like a job thats ok to treat em that way but if you want themes that are great art then you have to allow the artist to breathe.

artists dont function like workers, thats why theres so little great art out there.

just imagine if michealangelo made the pope paint his own ceiling.

its the old put up or shut up paradigm
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Old 05-06-2013, 06:53 PM   #32
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Quote:
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Studios can be pretty strange, just as its inhabitants.
"
@Unox - Susan's point is that the poll is introduced with a bunch of stuff basically demeaning women - Susan is a woman and an engineer and musician in case you're not familiar with her name.

production engineering and themeing are not just practiced by men! best to bear that in mind !!
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Old 05-06-2013, 08:14 PM   #33
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I support this idea, until a better one comes along.

There are too few consequences for discouraging and destructive behaviour on net forums and in many other net places.

That it happens doesn't make it alright.

Let's remember that the bad behaviour, the thoughtless calls to attention, are not what the majority of users come here for or need. Ranting and raving is reserved for going up against actual malice, and not to express your feelings at a temporary inconvenience, a general feeling of being malcontent or just being stupid, full of shit and/or fuckin' nuts. That's a George Carlin quote btw.

So yeah, bring on that kind of subsection of this forum. I can think of nothing better than people being judged by their peers and suffering the consequence of being kicked out for being bad little boys or girls.
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Old 05-06-2013, 10:41 PM   #34
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There are too few consequences for discouraging and destructive behaviour on net forums and in many other net places.

That it happens doesn't make it alright.
Amen. I'm so glad this discussion is happening. It takes so little effort to poison online communities. Forums that don't defend themselves inevitably get overrun, ending with a wimper. Valuable contributors just ... silently disappear. Without the love, they've got better things to do, because they're effective people.

I am in favor of this experiment. My only concern is that it may be very easy to game the system. It would suck to find yourself in an arms race attempting to define a set of rules that produces the desired outcome. Some of the smartest minds on the internet have applied themselves to the problem of preventing haters and trolls from ruining forums, and the jury's still out on whether they've had any effect at all.

But still, I think it's definitely worth trying

Edit: And exclusivity can be incredibly powerful.

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Old 05-07-2013, 01:32 AM   #35
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Sorry, as is life, this comes with the territory when creating anything. It's no different than being a musician. "Hey man, like my new tune?" .. "No it sucks donkey balls". He who runs away licking his wounds, never to return isn't cut out for the job. I'm not applauding it, I'm describing it as it exists.
Well, then why not make something else exist. Let's be creative.

Like a forum were a man who needs to link his suckingexperiences in a very negative way with an attempt to creativity can go to a place were donkeyballs are actually sucked.

I'm a teacher, I'm expected to work with the knowledge they gave me about how both young and inexperienced people absord and process new information.

It is forbidden for me to tell a student in front of her peers that the song she wrote and recorded sounded like her mother beeing raped by thirty japanese midgets on nitrometh. Everybody will laugh, and I can feel very proud of myself for beeing this funny and popular teacher thanks to the lash I landed on the student's back. The student will be in tears, she will never listen to her song again or trust me.
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Old 05-07-2013, 01:55 AM   #36
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Why not just create a website with forums for this very purpose? Somehow I doubt it will turn out like you expect if it was integrated here. Separate is more controllable, not as integrated - but that's also a positive.
There are other places, but that would look a bit silly imo, reaperthemers theming somewere else cos the reaperforum isn't the proper place to make a reapertheme.. Hmpf.
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Old 05-07-2013, 02:18 AM   #37
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Sorry, as is life, this comes with the territory when creating anything. It's no different than being a musician. "Hey man, like my new tune?" .. "No it sucks donkey balls". He who runs away licking his wounds, never to return isn't cut out for the job. I'm not applauding it, I'm describing it as it exists.
I don't dispute this happens. I absolutely recognise this is part and parcel of ad-hoc creative environments. But my personal experience of professional creative environments (ymmv) is that saying things like "it sucks donkey balls" or "that's awful" (with no elaboration) is beaten out of you, often in the manner of the creative director tearing you a new one. In certain agencies, depending on who you said it to, they'd just fire you on the spot ...and these are places where some very robust criticism goes on, at all times, from everyone, and often with really very fruity language indeed. Its not the opinion, its not the criticism, its not the language ...its because its unhelpful, unprofessional and disruptive. Er... I hope I've managed to explain the difference

Either way, the theme forum isn't analogous to a creative team working together, its much more a client <> creative professional relationship. A good number of my friends and acquaintances are also my creative colleagues, and let me pass on this, which is oft discussed : when you need the work, you work for anyone. When you have enough work, you fire your 'payment problem' clients first, and the rude buggers second.

I love to work with clients who challenge me, who push me to do my best work, keep me on my toes, let me know the moment I'm not hitting the mark. But if a client told me something "sucked donkey balls" with no irony or banter when I did something bad (and I do bad all the time, that's part of the process) I would be both uninformed about how to do better AND think they were a bit of a dick. And personally I recognise extra value in working with clients I like. If I were lucky enough not to need their work, that would be step one towards the "this isn't really working..." conversation. When it comes to themers, this community is the client, and the themer really doesn't need your work, perversely some of them are even professionals working here for free. And let me assure you that some of them, if they were working for the money, would likely be waaaaay out of your budget. Be a good client.
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Old 05-08-2013, 03:03 PM   #38
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or you could not take it personally and shed the fragile thin skin. life is too short to really give a shit about what others think more than your own opinion.

White Tie, your stuff is epic !! You of all people should give the least shit what others think.
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Old 05-08-2013, 03:15 PM   #39
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White Tie, your stuff is epic !! You of all people should give the least shit what others think.
It's unwise to discount the (extremely likely) possibility that his work is great at least partly because he cares. Likewise for the other themers who seem to have been finding the forums a bit too acerbic. It's good to know that some people feel this way, so the rest of us can be more careful ...

Ignoring the opinions of others doesn't make for a particularly collaborative environment.
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Old 05-08-2013, 04:17 PM   #40
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You of all people should give the least shit what others think.
I'm still here. You realise this isn't about me, yeah?
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