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Old 06-23-2022, 11:52 AM   #1
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Default v6.61+dev0623 - June 23 2022

v6.61+dev0623 - June 23 2022
  • * Incudes feature branch: render statistics improvements
  • * Incudes feature branch: media explorer loudness calculation
  • * Includes feature branch: fixed lane play markers
  • * Includes feature branch: improve experimental silent-track CPU reduction option to include FX tail length
  • * Includes feature branch: media item fixed lanes
  • * Includes feature branch: internal pin management overhaul for future extension
  • + FX: improve parameter link behavior (midi CC and loading project, or linking with invalid parameters) [t=250096]
  • + Pan: fix pan evaluation offset when stopped [p=2571736]
  • + Pan: rename pan law options to sin/cos taper, linear taper, and hybrid taper
  • # Media item fixed lanes: add lane play marker mouse modifier to adjust crossfade
  • # Media item fixed lanes: fix adding overlapping media to soloed lane [p=2571715]
  • # Media item fixed lanes: fix editing lane play markers when partial measures exist [p=2571728]
  • # Media item fixed lanes: fix various insert actions when lanes are collapsed [p=2571737]
This thread is for pre-release features discussion. Use the Feature Requests forum for other requests.

Changelog - Pre-Releases

Generated by X-Raym's REAPER ChangeLog to BBCode
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Old 06-23-2022, 01:32 PM   #2
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Originally Posted by sockmonkey72 View Post
v6.61+dev0623 - June 23 2022

[*]+ Pan: fix pan evaluation offset when stopped [p=2571736]
now it fits. i also noticed that the envelope panel does not show the value 100%L or 100%R when the edit cursor is set to these automation points (at 1.2.00 and 1.4.00).
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Old 06-23-2022, 01:57 PM   #3
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Quote:
+ Pan: rename pan law options to sin/cos taper, linear taper, and hybrid taper
Nice!
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Old 06-23-2022, 02:49 PM   #4
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Originally Posted by sockmonkey72 View Post
  • # Media item fixed lanes: add lane play marker mouse modifier to adjust crossfade
Wow, that was fast! Thanks devs!
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Old 06-23-2022, 03:01 PM   #5
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Hey Schwa,

Just wanted to extend a BIG THANK YOU for continuing to improve and streamline Reaper's Pan Law!!

I just ran it through a bunch of tests over the last couple of hours and found it to be 100% predictable. No weirdness. I'll post anything if I find any weirdness.

Thank you!!

I use a portable version of Reaper for testing, so I'm not sure of the default project settings Reaper has for newly installed systems, but I would probably choose this setting (to behave like other DAWs OTB):



Actually... I found Hybrid and Linear with the above settings to behave 100% identically. So whatever is less CPU is what I'd choose? Maybe Linear? Curious as to your thoughts.

And for the Track Pan settings:



Thanks again... for all your hard work.

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Old 06-23-2022, 05:16 PM   #6
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+ FX: improve parameter link behavior (midi CC and loading project, or linking with invalid parameters) [t=250096]

Only just had a chance to test this

Upon setting the settings and then saving (closing reaper) and reloading reaper and the project..

It now seems to hold the value when you arm the track (which I recall as not happening before)

It resets to 0 still upon pressing play (record armed or not).

If I open up a parameter modulation window I can see that the value (on the green line) is 0 which makes sense why it resets.

Hopefully there's a way to get it to recall it there too or to not send if no change is happening?

This is with an old project though. Does it only work on newly setup ones?

Thanks though for getting stuck into tweaking this!


EDIT

Just tried a new project too and same results

.
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Old 06-23-2022, 05:23 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Thonex View Post
I found Hybrid and Linear with the above settings to behave 100% identically. So whatever is less CPU is what I'd choose? Maybe Linear?
The hybrid function essentially morphs between the sin/cos function at low pan laws and the linear function at high pan laws.

-6dB pan law: sin/cos, linear, and hybrid are all equivalent.

between -6dB and -3dB pan law: hybrid is equivalent to sin/cos.

between -3dB and +0dB pan law: sin/cos, linear, and hybrid are all different. As pan law increases, hybrid becomes less like sin/cos and more like linear.

+0dB pan law: hybrid is equivalent to linear.


Where function types are equivalent, the CPU cost is also equivalent.
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Old 06-23-2022, 05:39 PM   #8
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Left to right: sin/cos, linear, and hybrid. Animation runs from -6 to +0 pan law.


Last edited by schwa; 06-23-2022 at 05:49 PM.
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Old 06-23-2022, 05:46 PM   #9
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Sin/cos, linear, hybrid, animation runs from -6 to +0 pan law

EDIT -- Just saw the post above your last... thanks!!

Really interesting. When I did Pan sweeps looking at the VU... even really slowly, I didn't see any difference in readout or dB. Maybe the resultant is the same?:



Sorry... not a mathematician
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Old 06-23-2022, 05:48 PM   #10
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At +0dB pan law hybrid and linear are equivalent, as per post #7 above. Between -6 and +0, hybrid and linear are different, as per the animation.
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Old 06-23-2022, 05:48 PM   #11
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The whole idea of pan laws is to keep the perceived loudness of a signal when moving from center to the left or right and that's exactly what -3dB/hybrid or -3dB/sin-cos do. And this should be only necessary when you're panning a track. Everything else can stay at 0dB. At least that's what I do and always suggest to people learning REAPER.

By the way, since you're working on that dialog which looks awesome now, thanks for that! Could you please allow us to change pan law and pan mode for all selected tracks at the same time? That would save us a serious amount of time
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Old 06-23-2022, 05:53 PM   #12
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I think I just spotted a minor bug with the pan modes. If you change pan modes in project settings and hit OK it will change on the TCP but not on the mixer. You have to close the mixer and open it again to see the change.
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Old 06-23-2022, 07:37 PM   #13
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There actually is a flaw in the hybrid taper mode that's been there since "linear scale above 3db" was introduced. Let me see if I can explain clearly.

From what I can tell, above -3 dB pan law you're scaling the sinusoid horizontally then at 0 dB you suddenly switch to a linear pan law curve.

Like this:



You can see that the slope of the sinusoid surpasses the slope of the eventual linear form for pan laws above -1.499 dB (20log(sin(1))).

This is the reason for the faulty goniometer motion pointed out by Tale here:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tale View Post
Looking good! However, when you automate pan with he new 0 dB linear pan law, it seems to linger around the center for too long.
It this expected behavior? I would say not, but what do I know...

Anyway, I've made a test project and some LICEcaps, where pan is automated using a triangular shape.
With a -3 dB pan law (or any other pan law) it goes back and forth from left to right in a seemingly perfect linear fashion, but with 0 dB linear it does not.


-3 dB pan law


0 dB linear pan law

In response to his post you implemented the sudden switch at 0 dB, which does do some good, but the issue remains between -1.499 dB and 0 dB.
Admittedly, not a common range for pan law, but for the sake of correctness maybe this can be fixed.


Look:

0 dB


-0.01 dB


0 dB is fine. -0.01 db is not.
Because of the "bulging" sinusoid, the pan motion lingers too long around the middlepoint.

Sry for the jumpy GIFs.
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Old 06-23-2022, 07:38 PM   #14
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So, importantly, the pan law curve affects not only the shape of the goniometer curve, but also the motion of a swept pan.
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Old 06-23-2022, 07:40 PM   #15
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What really should happen is a morphing transition between the sinusoid and the linear hard-clipper-like shape:



You can still horizontally scale the sinusoid up until -1.499 dB
Then switch to the morphing function.

I worked through many solutions after "The Pan Law Discussion".
This really has to be done piecewise and I'll post a fairly simple function that accomplishes what is needed. It works just like a variable knee soft clipper such as GClip. Can be simplified further.

https://www.desmos.com/calculator/xj1ed3hdf6

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Old 06-23-2022, 09:38 PM   #16
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Quote:
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What really should happen is a morphing transition between the sinusoid and the linear hard-clipper-like shape:.
.
.
.
Color me very impressed. I really like this idea.

Thanks for putting so much time and research into this... and thanks for sharing!

Cheers,

Andrew K
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Old 06-23-2022, 11:49 PM   #17
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Originally Posted by ErBird View Post
I worked through many solutions after "The Pan Law Discussion".
This really has to be done piecewise and I'll post a fairly simple function that accomplishes what is needed. It works just like a variable knee soft clipper such as GClip. Can be simplified further.
ErBird, this is just...wow. That's some damn fine work there. Hats off to you for doing that.
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Old 06-24-2022, 12:38 AM   #18
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Thx, I've been sitting on that since the last time pan law came up 2+ years ago.

It is an edge case, no doubt, you'd have to be automating pan and using a pan law between -1.5 and 0 dB.

If a user sticks to the options in the dropdown, they'll never encounter this.
But technically you can manually type in a number, so the possibility is there.

And this isn't a commentary on the devs and their work, just an oddity I noticed.
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Old 06-24-2022, 03:41 AM   #19
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About Pan Law fixes, can we have a new Volule/Pan JSFX with the new pan law algorithm in it ?
It is sometimes handy to use this and if it could mirror the new reaper behavior, if it doesnt already, it would be nice !
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Old 06-24-2022, 05:17 AM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ErBird View Post
What really should happen is a morphing transition between the sinusoid and the linear hard-clipper-like shape
Hey, thanks for this. As you say, it only affects the case where the user types in a pan law that is not available from the dropdown, but we'll include it for completeness.
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Old 06-24-2022, 05:19 AM   #21
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Amazing news, thanks a bunch ErBird and schwa!!!
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Old 06-24-2022, 07:08 AM   #22
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What's the deal with the given 6.0 dB and 6.02 dB pan law? Is it not possible to simplify it? It just confuses me.
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Old 06-24-2022, 09:18 AM   #23
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What's the deal with the given 6.0 dB and 6.02 dB pan law? Is it not possible to simplify it? It just confuses me.
What’s the confusion? they are indistinguishable from each other unless you’re doing a null test against something else…
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Old 06-24-2022, 09:46 AM   #24
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What’s the confusion? they are indistinguishable from each other unless you’re doing a null test against something else…
Right, I think that was his point. Since they are indistinguishable, there doesn't really seem to be a need for 6.02. Having both in the list causes confusion as people will assume they are different, like mawi did.
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Old 06-24-2022, 09:53 AM   #25
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They are different though. Not enough for most people to care, but enough for some people to care.

https://forum.cockos.com/showthread.php?t=165955
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Old 06-24-2022, 10:04 AM   #26
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Originally Posted by schwa View Post
They are different though. Not enough for most people to care, but enough for some people to care.

https://forum.cockos.com/showthread.php?t=165955
Interesting. Thanks for that. I'm kind of stunned that someone can hear that.
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Old 06-24-2022, 10:47 AM   #27
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Interesting. Thanks for that. I'm kind of stunned that someone can hear that.
Someone may claim they can, but there's no way. You might be able to detect the residual signal from nulling -6 and -6.02 dB, but discerning between a signal and a 0.02 dB boosted version is simply impossible.
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Old 06-24-2022, 11:11 AM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by schwa View Post
Hey, thanks for this. As you say, it only affects the case where the user types in a pan law that is not available from the dropdown, but we'll include it for completeness.
You guys are awesome!

Thanks Devs for including this... great teamwork here. Thanks again ErBrid for sharing this solution!
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Old 06-24-2022, 12:03 PM   #29
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Originally Posted by ErBird View Post
Someone may claim they can, but there's no way. You might be able to detect the residual signal from nulling -6 and -6.02 dB, but discerning between a signal and a 0.02 dB boosted version is simply impossible.
That guy could also type -6.02 into the box to get what he expects to "hear".
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Old 06-24-2022, 07:26 PM   #30
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Good idea for play marker + fixed lanes feature request from user on a take UX thread:

Collapse viewable items on track to item play regions (standalone track Boolean and also option to set this true automatically below a certain track height)
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Old 06-25-2022, 06:00 AM   #31
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That guy could also type -6.02 into the box to get what he expects to "hear".
If anything, -6dB seems to be the unnecessary one. -6.02dB is the right electrical math, from what I understand:
https://forum.cockos.com/archive/ind.../t-210392.html

About -4.5, it's not because of room acoustics like karbomusic says. It's because -6.02dB keeps the apparent level of panned audio stable when monitoring in mono and -4.5dB is the compromise between -3dB (stable apparent levels in stereo) and -6.02dB. Using -4.5dB lets you set your levels however you like and your decision won't be too far away in the mono/stereo divide. Yes, constructive boundary interference can add bass level to your acoustic SPL response but I never thought that the pan law was the place to fix this.

I remember someone saying that 0.1dB is enough to throw off an ABX test but I'm not sure if 0.02dB would matter.

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Old 06-25-2022, 06:29 AM   #32
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Originally Posted by Mercado_Negro View Post
I think I just spotted a minor bug with the pan modes. If you change pan modes in project settings and hit OK it will change on the TCP but not on the mixer. You have to close the mixer and open it again to see the change.
thx, fixing
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Old 06-25-2022, 08:46 AM   #33
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Old 06-25-2022, 09:10 AM   #34
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Reaper project: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1FlH...ew?usp=sharing
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Old 06-25-2022, 12:28 PM   #35
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Originally Posted by musicbynumbers View Post
+ FX: improve parameter link behavior (midi CC and loading project, or linking with invalid parameters) [t=250096]

Only just had a chance to test this

Upon setting the settings and then saving (closing reaper) and reloading reaper and the project..

It now seems to hold the value when you arm the track (which I recall as not happening before)

It resets to 0 still upon pressing play (record armed or not).

If I open up a parameter modulation window I can see that the value (on the green line) is 0 which makes sense why it resets.

Hopefully there's a way to get it to recall it there too or to not send if no change is happening?

This is with an old project though. Does it only work on newly setup ones?

Thanks though for getting stuck into tweaking this!


EDIT

Just tried a new project too and same results

.
Hmm I can't duplicate this, can you provide a minimal project and reaper.ini? thanks!
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Old 06-25-2022, 01:51 PM   #36
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Quote:
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Hmm I can't duplicate this, can you provide a minimal project and reaper.ini? thanks!
No worries doing that now
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Old 06-25-2022, 02:16 PM   #37
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Hi Justin.

I've hit a bit of a wall because it works fine in the reaper plugins and the few vst2 plugins I've tried BUT..

It is broken in all vst3 plugins I've tried so far.

I'm trying to find a free vst plugin that you might also have but try it your end with a vst3 if you have time and see if that resets.

In the meantime, I'll find something that has a free version or demo and send a simple repro project.
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Old 06-25-2022, 02:27 PM   #38
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ah cool that's enough (sample accurate automation needs the same fix), fixing!

Last edited by Justin; 06-25-2022 at 02:33 PM.
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Old 06-25-2022, 02:35 PM   #39
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Thanks!

Here's the project anyway just in case
https://stash.reaper.fm/44762/parame...DevBuild23.rpp

And the reaper.ini file
https://stash.reaper.fm/44763/REAPER.ini

Found out that it works as expected with ReaEQ (and possibly all reaper plugins and JSFX) and VST2s.

It's broken in all the VST3s I've tried though

This project has the free voxengo span VST version only with it's metering parameter (bottom right corner) set to 127 the text reads "LU-SL" when you open the project but if you press play, it resets to 0 and the text will now read "DBFS".

I used track 1 to send midi to track 2. Track 1 has reacontrol sending cc 45 and track 2 has span metering parameter linked to receive midi on cc45.

I've then disable the send from track 1 so midi CC is severed.


here's the span link. https://www.voxengo.com/product/span/


.
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Old 06-25-2022, 03:58 PM   #40
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ah cool that's enough (sample accurate automation needs the same fix), fixing!
Amazing! Thanks
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