Old 07-01-2021, 05:43 AM   #1
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Default The Windows 11 Thread

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Originally Posted by foxAsteria View Post
Not to derail, but wtf happened to 10 being the "final version" of Windows?
Exactly.

So, Windows 11 is going to be rolled out 'in the holiday season'.

I've read about TPM being required but also that relatively new top-end PC's and even those PC's meeting requirements on paper fail the basic test to run Win 11.

If this stands as it is, and Microsoft don't do the sensible practical option of allowing general users to choose a non-TPM version of Win 11, (as it is doing for selected OEM machines – which requires you to contact them on a one-by-one basis (!) ) then a lot of people are going to be screwed eventually.

I say 'eventually' because no one is going to be literally forced to upgrade to Windows 11, however, all support for Windows 10 will end in 2025. That's four years to get a new compatible PC, or in the case of us OEM self-builders, four years to replace our CPU and Motherboards (and possible more components).

It could be said, arguably, that in four years time our PC's will be obsolete in any case, but for those of us that don't need to upgrade and are happy with our current rigs, this is no comfort.

Microsoft screwed me and many others over last time it withdrew support for my sound interface which ran perfectly, up until a Win 10 update rendered its drivers incompatible. Literally overnight my mastering-grade hardware was useless.

It's this aspect of Microsoft that I hate. Their policies are destructive and this Windows 11 controversy is more of the same.

This is the first time in 20 years that I'm considering buying an off-the shelf PC just to avoid the hassle and stress of building another rig.

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Old 07-01-2021, 05:46 AM   #2
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They are probably working with hardware vendors to obsolete all current systems to generate a round of all new PC purchases. I would not be surprised at all.
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Old 07-01-2021, 06:14 AM   #3
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I spent 45 years in IT, nothing new about software making hardware obsolete.

Embrace the suck brothers and sisters, not much else you can do about it.
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Old 07-01-2021, 06:42 AM   #4
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not much you else you can do about it.
Go Analog?
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Old 07-01-2021, 07:01 AM   #5
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Go Analog?
How I wish we could.
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Old 07-01-2021, 07:29 AM   #6
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Supposedly only explicitly WASAPI sound device drivers will be supported. And of course ASIO will be forced to not work.

By this the audio integration will be as smooth as it is with mac.

-Michael
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Old 07-01-2021, 07:49 AM   #7
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I was hoping they'd fix the ugly default windows, menus etc, aka the ugly bits of Reaper, but it seems not
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Old 07-01-2021, 07:56 AM   #8
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from the history of windows upgrades, typically the amount of people bitching is 100 times the amount of actual issues.

But I am sure there will be some.

all I can think is..

at least it's not OSX/Mac
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Old 07-01-2021, 08:04 AM   #9
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They are probably working with hardware vendors to obsolete all current systems to generate a round of all new PC purchases. I would not be surprised at all.
Maybe they are following post-Jobs Apple's example and putting a whitelist in the installer script. Only newer machines will be whitelisted. This is how Apple was gaslighting people with their last 5 OS releases. Dropping fully supported machines (hardware wise) off the whitelist to try to force new sales. And then the thing where they started soldering hard drives to the logic board and that kind of thing.

That led to an online community releasing whitelist patches. The same thing could likely happen with Windows.

The gaslighting these days is over the top. Computers have plateaued. Unless someone is making a custom $4k - $6k build. And we have the new crop of light weight spec machines for basic browsing that have lower spec than most machines from 2010. Oh look... and those can somehow run the new OS with no struggle!
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Old 07-01-2021, 08:10 AM   #10
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Two of three Desktops on Insider Preview and they just Updated to Win100 Pro. Typical operator clumsiness adjusting to habitual operations. Major disappointment is messages advising hardware not acceptable for Official Win11 Pro release.

Understand these are older, home studio builds, but high quality at the time.
i5 quads, ASUS MB(s), nVidia Graphics, HD Pwr Sup(s), 32GB DDR3, EVO SSD(s), Server cases, many fans. All very stable and capable for personal Reaper DAW usage.

Gonna cost a bunch to update, since virtually everything is involved, other than most disk drives. Most likely to do one main PC, and do clean Win10 Pro install on other two.
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Old 07-01-2021, 08:25 AM   #11
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Maybe they want to put an end to DIY builds?
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Old 07-01-2021, 08:28 AM   #12
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well hmm that would be bad if windows went in any direction that osx has been on
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Old 07-01-2021, 08:31 AM   #13
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Originally Posted by toleolu View Post
not much else you can do about it.
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Go Analog?
Go Linux and take control of your machine away from M$.
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Old 07-01-2021, 08:52 AM   #14
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Go Linux and take control of your machine away from M$.
I was waiting for that Glenn. Knew it would just be a matter of time before the penguins started flocking.

Linux is great, haven't used it in years but as far as operating systems go, it's a tank. Back in my IT days, my Linux servers just ran and ran.
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Old 07-01-2021, 08:59 AM   #15
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if I ever have a server, I'll use linux. Till then, I enjoy being able to use the same programs I've used for decades along with new stuff.

Even if I have to stay with windows 10
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Old 07-01-2021, 09:06 AM   #16
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I spent 45 years in IT, nothing new about software making hardware obsolete.

Embrace the suck brothers and sisters, not much else you can do about it.
Advanced software that was too much for the old hardware to handle used to make home hardware obsolete.
At least in consumer level systems you could try to run it and maybe it was too slow, but it was your choice to tolerate the performance until a hardware upgrade, but it would run.

Now however limp wrist flea powered 1gz dual core CPUs on the same fully compatible platform are getting the okay for Win 11 while older and vastly more powerful multi core CPU powerhouses have been artificially put to pasture over dubious security requirements -some are shockingly young systems - though I expect Microsoft will have a workaround for those before launch.

Arguably home working and internet shopping/banking has put security front and centre, but I'm sure an additional low cost security hardware widget wouldn't be beyond the realms of possibility.

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Old 07-01-2021, 09:24 AM   #17
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I was waiting for that Glenn. Knew it would just be a matter of time before the penguins started flocking.

Linux is great, haven't used it in years but as far as operating systems go, it's a tank. Back in my IT days, my Linux servers just ran and ran.
My former life in programming and IT I used to setup Unix testbed machines, because our software could run on both DOS and Unix. That was back in the 80s and it was primitive.

When I installed Linux on my DAW 3 years ago, most of the software I used on a regular basis was available in native Linux versions. Linux is not that different from Windows other than you get control over your machine rather than leasing some time on it from M$.
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Old 07-01-2021, 09:27 AM   #18
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Now however limp wristed flea powered 1gz dual core CPUs on the same fully compatible platform is getting the okay for Win 11 while older and vastly more powerful CPUs have been artificially put to pasture over dubious security requirements -some are shockingly young systems
Nailed it! It's 100% gaslighting. This is exactly what Apple has been doing the last few years now. They have similar flea powered models. Specs I haven't seen since 1998!
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Old 07-01-2021, 09:39 AM   #19
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Advanced software that was too much for the old hardware to handle used to make home hardware obsolete.
M$ *banned* the installation of kernel mode drivers in Windows 7. While this may have made it more crash proof than XP, it also made it impossible to install the driver at my own risk rendering a $1500 CD/DVD printer almost useless. Had to run a virtual XP to print a fooking CD/DVD.

When I built my Ryzen 3700X I still was setup for dual booting Win7/Xubuntu and once I moved my SSDs to the new machine, the first boot into Windows 7 it came right up and my USB mouse, keyboard, and nVidia display card were all working fine.

Then Windows started detecting new hardware (last boot was on an i5) and after a moment Windows wanted to reboot. I let it reboot and the Windows that had just moments earlier worked with my Ryzen 3700X suddenly had no keyboard, no mouse, and the video was running at 640x480.

That proved to me that Windows 7 could have easily run on my brand new hardware, and that Microsoft destroyed that capability after one boot. It took me almost five minutes thinking about trying to make Windows 7 work again on the Ryzen 3700X before I formatted the Windows 7 drive and went 100% Linux.
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Old 07-01-2021, 09:52 AM   #20
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Maybe they want to put an end to DIY builds?
Ha ! Maybe; as all they push now is Surface.

Career hp guy and prefer to choose large server cases, many fans, big Pwr Sup(s), large MB(s). Problem in future is current /potential need for > 64GB DDR4, or next iteration. Looking at $1.5K+ per system ....
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Old 07-01-2021, 10:53 AM   #21
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A lot of serendipity among the horror these days.

The M1 Mac Mini came out just in time for me to spend my stimulus on it, so I could have a better Facetime platform to do online guitar lessons.

Now it's slotting in quite well with Microsoft's plans. It looks like they want me to upgrade my PC; as well as accept having to be online to use my PC.

As I see it from my vantage point, it's a good time to take my PC offline, effectively lock it in place from a technology standpoint. At this juncture I literally have no reason not to be able to make anything with it; there is no new functionality/plug-in that's going to happen that I don't already have.

Do I need another 1176 clone? A better algorithmic reverb than Valhalla? I've said previously Reaper already kind of cleared the bar for me from a utility standpoint. With everybody switching to You Don't Own Anything as a marketing approach, I am now in Pre-Offlining my PC mode as I see it.

I'll continue to buy my Reaper versions as long as Justin & Co. keeps having .exe installs. *I am not adding another bill to deal with*, and certainly not "not buying" software. It's pretty clear MS is setting things up for some sort of subscription based nonsense.

I have a Fitbit that I *liked* a lot until last year. They literally *took away functionality I had already paid for and had been using for years*. They have the corporate arrogance to now as me to subscribe in order to *get back* the ability to see my "restlessness" and other metrics I HAD ALREADY HAD AND PAID TO HAVE.


That we put up with this nonsense in the 21st century points to a lack of self-identity and value of humans as individuals. Just wait - MS will have us set up to NEEDING a subscription - another bill to pay every month.
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Old 07-01-2021, 11:30 AM   #22
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As I see it from my vantage point, it's a good time to take my PC offline, effectively lock it in place from a technology standpoint. At this juncture I literally have no reason not to be able to make anything with it; there is no new functionality/plug-in that's going to happen that I don't already have.
THIS. ALL OF THIS.

I've been using the same PC for about ten years now, and its not really showing much signs of struggling with what I use it for. I chose parts as wisely as I could, all very over clockable, and apart from the firewire dead end I made a mistake on, still holds up.

Normally, from maybe Win XP on, its taken at least a year before I've 'upgraded' to the next version of windows. That time got longer and my change from Win 7 to Win 10 was held off for as long as possible, because everything worked great. I didnt bother with 8, or Vista, or whatever else there has been.

I'll attempt to do the same thing with 10 to 11, but I'm just as likely to go to Linux completely instead.

This constant upgrade train is totally unsustainable, and I'm aware I'm already, ethically/environmentally, living well outside my means. I've bought too much stuff as it is lately, with a new mixer and interface. Any further purchases I want to hold off for as long as humanly possible.

I already have way way more than I need to make the musical fun I want to.
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Old 07-01-2021, 11:32 AM   #23
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Originally Posted by serr View Post
Maybe they are following post-Jobs Apple's example and putting a whitelist in the installer script. Only newer machines will be whitelisted. This is how Apple was gaslighting people with their last 5 OS releases. Dropping fully supported machines (hardware wise) off the whitelist to try to force new sales. And then the thing where they started soldering hard drives to the logic board and that kind of thing.

That led to an online community releasing whitelist patches. The same thing could likely happen with Windows.

The gaslighting these days is over the top. Computers have plateaued. Unless someone is making a custom $4k - $6k build. And we have the new crop of light weight spec machines for basic browsing that have lower spec than most machines from 2010. Oh look... and those can somehow run the new OS with no struggle!
And that's how linux started when Linus was making printers work whose drivers had been deprecated.
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Old 07-01-2021, 11:37 AM   #24
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if I ever have a server, I'll use linux. Till then, I enjoy being able to use the same programs I've used for decades along with new stuff.

Even if I have to stay with windows 10
Same here. I ran Redhat for my workstation for 5 years as a webdev and found it much harder to install and configure apps. I love Windows 10 and find it way easier.
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Old 07-01-2021, 11:44 AM   #25
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Same here. I ran Redhat for my workstation for 5 years as a webdev and found it much harder to install and configure apps. I love Windows 10 and find it way easier.
LOL! When was that? Linux has come a ways since then. You might want to try a live ISO on a USB stick of a distro or two, for fun.
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Old 07-01-2021, 01:24 PM   #26
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the past 15 years:

oh noes! a new windows upgrade! nothing will work! You will need to keep your PC online at all times!

...

LINUX IS ALMOST THERE!
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Old 07-01-2021, 01:28 PM   #27
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Go Linux and take control of your machine away from M$.
As soon as you convince NI and friends (inevitable for me: Sample Modeling and Audio Modeling) ....

-Michael
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Old 07-01-2021, 01:58 PM   #28
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As soon as you convince NI and friends (inevitable for me: Sample Modeling and Audio Modeling) ....

-Michael
Hmmmm. Well all my Native Instruments plugins already seem to be working fine in Linux, as evidenced by this pic.

https://sclkssl.ssl.hwcdn.net/29/img...205_809313.jpg


.
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Old 07-01-2021, 02:18 PM   #29
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Originally Posted by chip mcdonald View Post

As I see it from my vantage point, it's a good time to take my PC offline, effectively lock it in place from a technology standpoint. At this juncture I literally have no reason not to be able to make anything with it; there is no new functionality/plug-in that's going to happen that I don't already have.
I wholeheartedly agree.

I have a tablet and my partner has a Windows 11-ready PC that I'll use for social media, leisure and domestic use.

I'm going to lock it in place. Great idea.
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Old 07-01-2021, 02:18 PM   #30
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LOL! When was that? Linux has come a ways since then. You might want to try a live ISO on a USB stick of a distro or two, for fun.
You're not going to trick me into using vi of emacs. Nice try
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Old 07-01-2021, 02:30 PM   #31
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Originally Posted by chip mcdonald View Post
A lot of serendipity among the horror these days.

The M1 Mac Mini came out just in time for me to spend my stimulus on it, so I could have a better Facetime platform to do online guitar lessons.

Now it's slotting in quite well with Microsoft's plans. It looks like they want me to upgrade my PC; as well as accept having to be online to use my PC.

As I see it from my vantage point, it's a good time to take my PC offline, effectively lock it in place from a technology standpoint. At this juncture I literally have no reason not to be able to make anything with it; there is no new functionality/plug-in that's going to happen that I don't already have.

Do I need another 1176 clone? A better algorithmic reverb than Valhalla? I've said previously Reaper already kind of cleared the bar for me from a utility standpoint. With everybody switching to You Don't Own Anything as a marketing approach, I am now in Pre-Offlining my PC mode as I see it.

I'll continue to buy my Reaper versions as long as Justin & Co. keeps having .exe installs. *I am not adding another bill to deal with*, and certainly not "not buying" software. It's pretty clear MS is setting things up for some sort of subscription based nonsense.

I have a Fitbit that I *liked* a lot until last year. They literally *took away functionality I had already paid for and had been using for years*. They have the corporate arrogance to now as me to subscribe in order to *get back* the ability to see my "restlessness" and other metrics I HAD ALREADY HAD AND PAID TO HAVE.


That we put up with this nonsense in the 21st century points to a lack of self-identity and value of humans as individuals. Just wait - MS will have us set up to NEEDING a subscription - another bill to pay every month.
Great post. I took my workstation PC offline after Native Instruments stopped allowing for offline activation. On a rebuild, I am willing to go online once for the purpose of establishing licenses etc., but after this the PC is simply not a communications device. Any software that demands that I purpose my workstation as a communications device is software I will live without. I can use any old inexpensive computer, like what I'm typing on now, for the internet.

No worries about Windows Updates, viruses, subscription bills etc. And another upside is I've completely gotten out of the mindset of needing the latest and greatest "game changing" VI or processing effect, which after a certain point becomes nothing more than a consumeristic rabbit hole to fall into that has nothing whatsoever to do with engaging in a creative effort.

I still update Reaper (and a few other plugins that have local licensing), which thankfully allow for porting from an online computer without the draconian CP crap. But if this were to ever change I would be fine staying with the Reaper version I have now.
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Old 07-01-2021, 02:32 PM   #32
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Hmmmm. Well all my Native Instruments plugins already seem to be working fine in Linux, as evidenced by this pic.

https://sclkssl.ssl.hwcdn.net/29/img...205_809313.jpg


.
Wine work with current NI Native Access?

What about Valhalla DSP, or anything iLok?
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Old 07-01-2021, 02:38 PM   #33
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I remember, I think it was 2016, when a big Windows update wiped out about $800 worth of software...still pissed.
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Old 07-01-2021, 02:49 PM   #34
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Wine work with current NI Native Access?

What about Valhalla DSP, or anything iLok?
Lots of folks are running Kontakt in WINE and bridging it to Linux with either Yabridge or LinVST. I don't personally have any of the Valhalla stuff, but I'm pretty sure I've seen folks in the Linux forum that are using it successfully.

The iLok dongle stuff won't fly although I've read that some have gotten the cloud based ones to work.

I use Kontakt, Guitar Rig, B4 Organ, FM7, Superior Drummer 2, EZ-Drummer 1, EZ-Keys Piano Essentials, Arturia MiniMoog V, Emu Proteus VX, and a dozen or so freebees with no issues in Linux. The last project I put up has four instances of Kontakt, an instance of Guitar Rig with the Leslie from the B4 Organ, an instance of Superior Drummer 2 with Latin Percussion and a few other Windows plugins. They all work like they did when I was still running Windows.
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Old 07-01-2021, 02:49 PM   #35
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THIS. ALL OF THIS.

I've been using the same PC for about ten years now, and its not really showing much signs of struggling with what I use it for. I chose parts as wisely as I could, all very over clockable, and apart from the firewire dead end I made a mistake on, still holds up.

Normally, from maybe Win XP on, its taken at least a year before I've 'upgraded' to the next version of windows. That time got longer and my change from Win 7 to Win 10 was held off for as long as possible, because everything worked great. I didnt bother with 8, or Vista, or whatever else there has been.

I'll attempt to do the same thing with 10 to 11, but I'm just as likely to go to Linux completely instead.

This constant upgrade train is totally unsustainable, and I'm aware I'm already, ethically/environmentally, living well outside my means. I've bought too much stuff as it is lately, with a new mixer and interface. Any further purchases I want to hold off for as long as humanly possible.

I already have way way more than I need to make the musical fun I want to.
+1000 Plus one thousand. Great points about both the unsustainability and the ethical considerations... I only wish there were enough end-users willing to vote with their pocketbooks. If there were, we could force a shift in the current dismal paradigm.

Undoubtedly (assuming civilization survives) one day there will be a new generation of software tools: VIs, DSP etc. that will be much better and render our current tools obsolete. But for this generation at least we have plateaued, and I bought way. way more software than I could ever need before the consumption-driven craziness finally and thankfully went away.

I won't need another version of Windows in my lifetime. At least not for my offline workstation. I won't even need a single WU.
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Old 07-01-2021, 03:03 PM   #36
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As soon as you convince NI and friends (inevitable for me: Sample Modeling and Audio Modeling) ....

-Michael
That's it. When the support is there. The situation seems to have gotten a little better recently. Not sure I would be happy with unofficial support/emulation/fudging.

Pianoteq support Linux now. Incidentally they've also added felt piano settings this week.

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Lots of folks are running Kontakt in WINE and bridging it to Linux with either Yabridge or LinVST. I don't personally have any of the Valhalla stuff, but I'm pretty sure I've seen folks in the Linux forum that are using it successfully.

The iLok dongle stuff won't fly although I've read that some have gotten the cloud based ones to work.

I use Kontakt, Guitar Rig, B4 Organ, FM7, Superior Drummer 2, EZ-Drummer 1, EZ-Keys Piano Essentials, Arturia MiniMoog V, Emu Proteus VX, and a dozen or so freebees with no issues in Linux. The last project I put up has four instances of Kontakt, an instance of Guitar Rig with the Leslie from the B4 Organ, an instance of Superior Drummer 2 with Latin Percussion and a few other Windows plugins. They all work like they did when I was still running Windows.
Sounds hopeful. Maybe I will find out before 2025, no rush though. I would much
prefer official support.
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Old 07-01-2021, 03:08 PM   #37
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the past 15 years:

oh noes! a new windows upgrade! nothing will work! You will need to keep your PC online at all times!

...

LINUX IS ALMOST THERE!
Hahah

Very true. Doesnt mean MS arent gonna keep trying setting the OS up as a service tho. Plenty of apps have managed it, and it seems like more and more audio apps are going in a subscription service direction. So its still likely tbh.

Linux does actually seem to be acceptable now. And if I can run low latency audio on a Raspberry Pi (which I am), thats a fairly final nail in the coffin for me going for another big desktop 'upgrade'. Maybe an RPi 5, but no more desktops for me I think?
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Old 07-01-2021, 03:09 PM   #38
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+1000 Plus one thousand. Great points about both the unsustainability and the ethical considerations... I only wish there were enough end-users willing to vote with their pocketbooks. If there were, we could force a shift in the current dismal paradigm.
In the last three years since I switched to using the Linux version of REAPER, I've voted with my wallet by buying $300+ worth of native Linux plugins and $0.00 on new Windows plugins.
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Old 07-01-2021, 03:20 PM   #39
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Hahah

Very true. Doesnt mean MS arent gonna keep trying setting the OS up as a service tho. Plenty of apps have managed it, and it seems like more and more audio apps are going in a subscription service direction. So its still likely tbh.

Linux does actually seem to be acceptable now. And if I can run low latency audio on a Raspberry Pi (which I am), thats a fairly final nail in the coffin for me going for another big desktop 'upgrade'. Maybe an RPi 5, but no more desktops for me I think?
Linux is actually making some progress. After like a decade and a half of people fawning over it. It is not a bad thing for sure. No idea if it would work with my ff800 tho
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Old 07-01-2021, 03:21 PM   #40
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That's it. When the support is there. The situation seems to have gotten a little better recently. Not sure I would be happy with unofficial support/emulation/fudging.

Pianoteq support Linux now. Incidentally they've also added felt piano settings this week.
U-He also has native Linux versions of all their virtual instruments and audio plugins. I've dropped some coin with them.

Quote:
Sounds hopeful. Maybe I will find out before 2025, no rush though. I would much
prefer official support.
I've switched out all of my audio plugins for native Linux VSTs. The only Windows plugins I use are all VSTi instruments. I was originally setup for dual boot Win7 and Xubuntu, but I started messing with the Linux version of REAPER and found I needed Windows less and less to the point of nuking it last year.
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