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Old 01-30-2017, 10:29 AM   #1
Masonic
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Default PETITION: REAMOTE UPDATE

After going through some frustrating trials with Reamote, I started a discussion here : http://forum.cockos.com/showthread.php?t=186993

This conversation was distilled into a feature request by Michael (mschnell)
We believe the current implementation of Reamote is mostly useless – it is there but nobody can fully utilize it due to the current limitations. We really hope that the Reaper’s developers will respond to this request. Thank you

================================================== ==
Feature request for an extension to Reaper's "SubProject" feature, as a way to allow functionality similar to "ReaMote" in a more versatile way.
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Currently SubProjects work by pre-rendering the Subproject to a file and using same as the source file in an item of the main project. (A very viable feature.)

Now we would like to have a dual step extension to this paradigm, that could be implemented as a selectable "kind" of the Subproject:
- "Realtime" Subproject and
- "Remote" Subproject
(leaving the current subproject be named "Pre-Rendered" Subproject).

The Realtime Subproject is just an intermediate step to the goal we have in mind, but we think it can be handy as a feature of it's own, in certain projects, and it helps to explain the paradigm, as for the user the Remote Subproject is configured in exactly the same way.

In fact, the "Realtime" Subproject is just a way of managing the tracks in a specific way. When playing back / rendering the item that in the main project represents the subproject, the processing of the subproject is started and the resulting Audio and Midi streams are fed back into the item and hence the main project. The result is exactly the same as with the pre-rendered subproject (do those export midi ? ), it only uses more CPU and skips the step of pre-rendering.

Realtime Subprojects can be used beneficially if you do several main projects that all need some common "take" at certain points or if you want to do a project that needs the same snippet multiple times, but you want to be able to configure the internals of the snippet on the fly.

A "Remote" Subproject works exactly in the same way, only that the subproject resides on and is rendered on a second (or third..) machine.

A Remote Subproject can be beneficially used to render a complex project in nearly realtime (by distributing the CPU load appropriately).

On top of this, licensing problems of VSTs can be overcome, as those can reside on dedicated hardware that simply is used when necessary.

Other than with ReaMote, there is no need to install (and license) the VSTs on the main project box. Moreover known problems configuring VSTs that use e.g. Sample Libraries via ReaMote are not existing, as the configuration just happens on the remote box in the normal way. (Directly or via Remote Desktop / VNC or similar.)

We understand that the TCP/IP protocol used by ReaMote should be usable to make this happen, as it obviously already is able to transfer Audio and Midi streams in both directions and handles Starting and stopping the remote rendering and handles the unavoidable latency imposed by the remoting and by the plugins used on the remote site.

Additional thoughts:

It could make sense to use a startup option to Reaper when using it as a subproject host (sililar to a ReaMote host). In that case installing the appropriate TCP/IP server and disabling start/stop/rendering etc features, as these would be inappropriate with being a remote subproject host.

It might make sense to think about a way to host multiple subprojects within the same Reaper subproject host (e.g. as project tabs) or to start the subproject host multiple times on the same box.

It might make sense to clarify the licensing agreement for Reaper if (or if not) running a Subproject Host on another machine at the same time as the main project is covered by a single Reaper license.

Thanks for listening !
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Old 01-30-2017, 01:49 PM   #2
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I'd like to add something that I thought is obvious, but maybe it's not as clear for others as it's for me.

To match the ReaMote functionality you would do a Remote Subproject that contains a track with a plugin (or multiple) loaded and appropriately configured but does feature an Item. So the midi and audio streams passing through the Item that represents the subproject in the main project are remoted via TCP/IP.

This of course also holds for Realtime Subprojects, but rather clearly is a kind of extension to Pre-rendered Subprojects, as those obviously can't adhere to any realtime input, while Realtime and Remote Subprojects do exactly like normal projects or their tracks would.

-Michael

Last edited by mschnell; 01-30-2017 at 02:43 PM.
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Old 01-30-2017, 07:57 PM   #3
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Personally, I believe this is the only way to create a truly reliable, bulletproof system that is completely independent of any misbehaving plugin. In fact, many plugins are also more reliable when they’re independent of the playback host.

I really miss the times when I was using FX Teleport. For me, it saved countless productions and allowed me to do things that were borderline impossible in the times of Win XP. It sucks it got totally abandoned.

Vienna Ensemble Pro is another cross-platform network solution that I tried and even worked with in a few studios. It is currently the best but definitely not as intuitive as I’d like it to be. It acts like another host, which means, one has to add yet another layer of "in-between functionality" and routing.

I think as soon as people discover how fluid and easy production can become when a bunch of computers become one, without adding any complexity…it would be a cause for creative revolution.

I placed a very cheeky message on the developer’s forum and I hope they will chime in at some point with their thoughts on this matter.
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Old 01-31-2017, 01:30 AM   #4
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I actually thought of something.
For reamote subprojects, how easy is it to edit the reamote subproject in real time?
We have to use remote desktop or whatever to control the slave computers right?
Won't the graphics and whatever introduce latency?
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Old 01-31-2017, 02:03 AM   #5
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I understand the Remote Desktop (or VCN) will run on a lower priority than the realtime audio work done by Reaper. So I suppose a problem might be that Remote Desktop gets sluggish when using it while playing back / rendering a Reaper project.

Of course you could use a dedicated monitor for the remote machine(s) or a hardware monitor switch if this is a real issue.

Controlling the remote machine is only necessary for configuration, and can be switched off when doing playback / rendering, as data transfer, start-stop etc is controlled by the protocol (like with ReaMote).

Of course some latency will be introduced by transferring data via the network (GBit recommended, WLAN discouraged). The protocol (like with ReaMote) will compensate this by adding some latency to the complete project and syncing the audio streams in the end (as Reaper does with any plugin, anyway).

-Michael

Last edited by mschnell; 01-31-2017 at 09:51 AM.
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Old 02-01-2017, 01:57 AM   #6
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Default More than a REAMOTE UPDATE

Of course "Realtime" and "Remote" subproject can be a lot more than just a "REAMOTE UPDATE", as (just like a "pre-compiled" subproject) it optionally also can hold the audio (and midi) content to be played when the main project hits the item that represents the subproject.

-Michael

Last edited by mschnell; 02-01-2017 at 08:58 AM.
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Old 02-01-2017, 05:06 PM   #7
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Michael, how complex are your projects?
For me 90% of my time is thrown away by having to constantly bounce or freeze my tracks.

Once I worked at Discreet Logic (before it got swallowed by Avid) and they had some proprietary solutions that allowed to connect computers in a totally seamless way. I was able to see right from the desktop how many computers were available, then drag computer icons one on top of another and that was it. The whole cluster of computers would be seen as one from within Discreet Logic editing environment. This was in 2010. Strange how many innovative things never became mainstream and some technologies even got regressed over the years.
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Old 02-02-2017, 04:10 AM   #8
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I do see that Remote subprojects can really help with complex projects, as well for using additional CPU power as with decently organizing stuff for cross-project usage.

I myself don't do complex projects, but I have two boxes using Reaper for completely different purpose. (1) An "embedded" box (on stage not attached to a Monitor/keyboard/mouse) for live playing with masterkeyboards and Breath controller, and (2) a normal PC for standard DAW work.

Now of course the "professional" VSTis I have are installed on the "Live"-box, and this is why I can't do any midi editing work, as I don't have access to same on the "DAW"-box. Here, Remote Subprojects would allow for using these in the way ReaMote would (but does not do for known reasons).

-Michael
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Old 02-07-2017, 11:02 AM   #9
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Now that the 5.33 is out maybe this, much needed and awesome :-) feature, will get noticed and updated to its full glory.
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Old 02-07-2017, 02:40 PM   #10
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I just tried rather unsuccessfully to use the current pre-rendered subproject to overcome the problem of plugins licensed on two different machines, by alternatively starting the pair of projects on either one. I was not able to trigger the rendering at the points of time I'd needed it to occur, so the correct file always got overwritten before I was able to use it.

While doing so, I re-read the "subproject" paragraphs in the newest User Guide. Here, it is absolutely obvious, that "live" (not pre-rendered) subprojects would be perfectly integrated in that paradigm described there (and need only very few additional documentation). And on top of that, "Remote" subprojects would make perfect sense and help with a lot of current issues, including the ReaMote problems. (And would need only very few additional documentation, as well.)

-Michael

Last edited by mschnell; 02-07-2017 at 10:33 PM.
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Old 02-11-2017, 03:10 AM   #11
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I tried hard to find out if a kind of non-prenedered "Realtime" work is already possible with the current implementation of Subprojects. I tested lots of combinations of the "background project" settings available when right-clicking the project tabs of a project that consists of a main project and a subproject (that I created from one of it's tracks by the appropriate conversion provided by Reaper).

Unfortunately I am not able to decently figure out the meaning of the parameters' descriptions given in the the User Guide Paragraph "12.21 Projects and Subprojects" section "Working with subproject files".

I got very funny results. E.g. after pressing "Play" I heard the subproject's content play twice at the same time, at completely different time-locations, seemingly once from the rendered file and once directly from the track.

But I never found out how to avoid the pre-rendering and have the subproject's track(s) just played (and mixed in) at the appropriate time-location in the main project.

Right now, the motivation to again try to use a non-renedered "Realtime" subproject was a request of a fellow Reaper user (not using this forum) to reduce the sample-rate of some of the instruments in his midi-composing project to allow for realtime-pre-listening even if the CPU load of the VSTis is too high for generating all instruments in full quality.

So yet another benefit of "realtime" subprojects might be to allow for easily using different sample-rates in a project at the same time.

-Michael

Last edited by mschnell; 02-11-2017 at 05:00 AM.
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Old 02-16-2017, 02:09 PM   #12
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a spokesperson representing Reaper team could be really great. Somebody who could simply engage with us and discuss these matters. Sometimes it feels like we are speaking into some digital void. Honestly, I want only two things in Reaper. Updated Reamote and item aux sends. That's it. I'll never make another request. Promise.
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Old 03-05-2017, 02:22 AM   #13
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In this video -> Sub Projects in REAPER, Kenny very correctly puts a lot of stress upon the usefullness of subprojects to organize your tracks. He also mentions that subprojects can be use to save CPU when working on complex stuff, but for Kenny this does not seem to be the main reason to promote the use of subporojects. So the (not yet existing) "realtime" flavor of subprojetcs seems to be more like what he is after than current pre-renderd one.

-Michael

Last edited by mschnell; 03-13-2017 at 08:24 AM.
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Old 03-18-2017, 08:57 PM   #14
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The subproject sync and licensing is the only thing that makes the Remote useless for me.
so +1.
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Old 03-23-2017, 05:14 AM   #15
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Default Want this thingy too!

So, I have been asking in another thread about using another computer as a VST host and was encouraged to read this one.

I can not wrap my head around all that is being asked just yet, but I did conclude that Reamote is useless for my purposes at the moment.

So, I want that thingy too!
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Old 03-30-2017, 06:58 AM   #16
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+1 for your FR, guys!
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Old 04-18-2017, 02:05 PM   #17
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It seems like "Live Subproject have long since been invented under the name of "PIP"
-> http://forum.cockos.com/showthread.php?t=50248
-Michael
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Old 04-21-2017, 08:01 AM   #18
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Don't know about others but, I didn't understand anything? I have no idea what feature is being requested? Oh well, maybe it's beyond me...
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Old 04-26-2017, 11:46 PM   #19
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- Also one thing that i'd like to see fixed is the metering of Reamote plugins.

- It would also be great to have another fx chain on each track before or after the reamote fx chain so one can add local plugins to the reamote chain.

- Some global features would be great. For example a feature to globally freeze all Tracks that are assigned to a reamote (Especially for times when the reamote computer is not available).
Another global feature to reconnect all tracks which are assigned to a reamote (but maybe connection was lost or something), or just to assign a selection of tracks to a reamote computer.
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Old 05-02-2017, 10:48 PM   #20
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With the help of the Forum I found, that a rather similar setup as described above as a "Realtime SubProject" can be done using Reaper-to-Reaper Rewire.

Hence the original Request also could be handled by providing a an option for Remoting (via TCP/IP) Rewire.

Nonetheless, IMHO, SubProjects are more straight forward to be used by Reaperers than Reaper-to-Reaper Rewire, so maybe the "Realtime SubProject" (including "Remote SubProject") feature could be implemented as an advanced user interface for Reaper-to-Reaper Rewire.

(Obviously it would be appropriate to be able to use a rewire slave Raper within a project tab instead of being forced to open another Reaper GUI Window.)

-Michael
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Old 05-03-2017, 04:59 AM   #21
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Isn't reamote dead now ?
I could be misremembering but i think the devs have clearly stated no updates for reamote, just buy a faster computer, like i say, could be misremembering
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Old 05-03-2017, 05:18 AM   #22
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No, ReaMote is not dead, but - while it is a very easy to use remoting option, it has known shortcomings that are due to it's design: you an need installation and a licenses for the plugins on either site and it seems to be impossible to use plugins that load files (e.g. Kontakt and it's libraries).

-Michael
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Old 05-03-2017, 05:20 AM   #23
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It seems to be possible to configure a Reaper FX chain to use Rewire via ReaMote.

I did not yet check if this actually works.....

-Michael
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Old 05-03-2017, 05:28 AM   #24
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here -> http://forum.cockos.com/showpost.php...15&postcount=3

"gpunk_w" said:
"Rewire over LAN was planned by the developer of FXTeleport (See above) but he vanished into thin air and never returned."
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Old 05-03-2017, 08:42 AM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mschnell View Post
No, ReaMote is not dead, but - while it is a very easy to use remoting option, it has known shortcomings that are due to it's design: you an need installation and a licenses for the plugins on either site and it seems to be impossible to use plugins that load files (e.g. Kontakt and it's libraries).

-Michael
Hi,
also keep in mind that Reamote DOES NOT support parameter modulation :-(

akademie
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Old 05-10-2017, 12:45 AM   #26
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This is a feature that I would really appreciate. I know its a big one to ask. but its also a really good one.
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Old 05-10-2017, 09:28 AM   #27
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I guess one solution would be 2 have e.g.

2 computers running Windows / Reaper.

Computer A runs certain VSTi

Computer B runs other VSTi, and master track.

Use Reastream to simply stream audio from Computer A tracks into computer B.

Use VNC to control /view computer A.
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Old 05-10-2017, 02:05 PM   #28
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IMHO, streaming audio and midi in realtime is not appropriate. It would be necessary to allow for automatic latency compensation and for running slower or faster when rendering.

Something like Rewire via LAN could be a basis.

-Michael
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Old 03-31-2018, 02:47 AM   #29
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Pushing this thread, as Justin asked a question about removing ReaMote.
-Michael
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Old 03-31-2018, 02:54 AM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mschnell View Post
Pushing this thread, as Justin asked a question about removing ReaMote.
-Michael
Where did he ask about it?
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Old 03-31-2018, 03:52 AM   #31
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https://forum.cockos.com/showthread.php?t=204976
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Old 03-31-2018, 06:22 AM   #32
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Quote:
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Yeah, thanks! I've already found it.
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Old 03-31-2018, 12:39 PM   #33
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Interesting topic.

I didn't understand how to setup and configure a remote subproject. How is that supposed to work? Note, using VNC to configure something like 8 nodes is horrible. And you don't want to have monitor, keyboard and mouse for each node.

How to automate parameters of plugins hosted in a remote subproject?

From the initial description, it was very hard for me to understand that you want to be able to feed midi/audio into the live subproject. That is crucial to understand how the reamote-like use of remote subproject works. Maybe you should edit the description.

Where are the remote subprojects stored?
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Old 03-31-2018, 01:15 PM   #34
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All this is yet to be defined by the Reaper devs.

Maybe Remote Desktop is more comfortable than VNC.

If it's just for enhancing the CPU power, the remote PC will sit on your desktop and can have it's own Monitor, keyboard and mouse.

But of course for appropriate situations, ReaMote is by far the most convenient solution.

-Michael

Last edited by mschnell; 03-31-2018 at 01:52 PM.
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Old 03-31-2018, 07:03 PM   #35
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I'd probably want to use this as a kind of self-updating track templates. Save all my strings, brass and whatnot libraries I use in a score into subprojects and reference these subprojects across all the different cues(=project files). Whenever I change something in the fx chain of those (remote) subprojects, it would be automatically in all the referencing projects.

However, with a subproject you also make it more convoluted and time consuming to get to the plugin UIs and their parameters hosted inside. Not sure if this approach is really what I and you want. If I got this right, this idea is to work around limitations of Reamote (identically license activating and configuring plugins across multiple machines)?
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Old 04-01-2018, 12:32 AM   #36
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Yep. Remote Subprojects is more similar to remoting Rewire than to ReaMote, While all three variants allow for distributing CPU power, any will have it's own pros and cons.

I.e.:
- Reamote is very convenient but rather limited.
- Remoting Rewire is an abandoned project by some other group of developers hence not very likely to be usable (again) at all
- Remote Subprojects (obvious predecessor: "Live" (not pre-rendered) subprojects) would be a very "modern" Reaper-typical way to accomplish this.

-Michael
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Old 07-01-2020, 09:24 AM   #37
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I support this request. What I really need is a system for remoting VST/VSTi plugins in a solid, reliable way. Reaper feels like the most reliable DAW I've used, and its networking infrastructure feels solid and dependable - e.g., Ninjam really shocked me! How hard can this be in comparison?

Be it ReaMote subprojects or some other solution, I would love a way to solve this problem. I've been struggling with projects that are too large and complex to run on one machine. Vienna has a workable solution, but it's unwieldy and costly. Besides, it's 64bit only, while Reaper would allow me to keep using old plugins I've grown affection for.

A workable, minimum effort solution could be to
  1. Relax the requirement for the same plugin to be installed on both machines. It is the main setback as of today. Maybe this entails losing the GUI transport? Well I'll use VNC or Remote Desktop to set up the remote server. No problem.
  2. Make Reamote able to load VST3 plugins - they're the future anyway.
  3. Make the remote plugins able to load their settings, files, samples or whatever they need straight from their local environment (the remote machine).
That would make me the happiest Reaper user! No patchwork of networking MIDI, audio, manually fix latency etc. Just Reaper taking care of it all. That's my dream
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Old 10-20-2020, 01:38 PM   #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by juan_r View Post
I support this request. What I really need is a system for remoting VST/VSTi plugins in a solid, reliable way. Reaper feels like the most reliable DAW I've used, and its networking infrastructure feels solid and dependable - e.g., Ninjam really shocked me! How hard can this be in comparison?

Be it ReaMote subprojects or some other solution, I would love a way to solve this problem. I've been struggling with projects that are too large and complex to run on one machine. Vienna has a workable solution, but it's unwieldy and costly. Besides, it's 64bit only, while Reaper would allow me to keep using old plugins I've grown affection for.

A workable, minimum effort solution could be to
  1. Relax the requirement for the same plugin to be installed on both machines. It is the main setback as of today. Maybe this entails losing the GUI transport? Well I'll use VNC or Remote Desktop to set up the remote server. No problem.
  2. Make Reamote able to load VST3 plugins - they're the future anyway.
  3. Make the remote plugins able to load their settings, files, samples or whatever they need straight from their local environment (the remote machine).
That would make me the happiest Reaper user! No patchwork of networking MIDI, audio, manually fix latency etc. Just Reaper taking care of it all. That's my dream
That would be awesome!
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Old 10-21-2020, 04:44 AM   #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by juan_r View Post
I support this request. What I really need is a system for remoting VST/VSTi plugins in a solid, reliable way. Reaper feels like the most reliable DAW I've used, and its networking infrastructure feels solid and dependable - e.g., Ninjam really shocked me! How hard can this be in comparison?
I feel, the network Protocol implementation used in ReaMote provides most of the hard stuff necessary for "Remote Subprojects" (over "Live/Realtime Subprojects"). Hence maybe there is some hope ...

-Michael
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Old 10-21-2020, 12:15 PM   #40
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... more so if the hard part is transferring the UI. We don't need no stinkin' local UI, so we can dispense with that, can't we?
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