mod wheel as hihat control

[brainwreck]

I mapped my keyboard's mod wheel to cc 4 for drum sampler hihat control, but as soon as I stop moving the mod wheel, any drum sampler acts as if the mod wheel value has been reset. What do I need to do to get around this?

[V'ger]

A wild guess, but uncheck Preferences - MIDI Devices - On stop/play: reset CC

[brainwreck]

Originally Posted by V'ger

A wild guess, but uncheck Preferences - MIDI Devices - On stop/play: reset CC

That didn't do it, but thanks for the suggestion. I was a little wrong, btw. BFD Eco sort of responds as it should, but it has some oddities going on. In the semi-open position, the hi-hat is wayyy louder than in other positions, the open position being the lowest in volume, which sounds like the samples being put out are room mics only. Ezdrummer, Superior, and Addictive respond but revert back to closed position as soon as I stop moving the mod wheel. I have no idea what is causing this to happen, but it is driving me nuts trying to figure it out. Addictive has a cc readout, which is verifying what I think is going on (cc value resetting), but when I record the mod wheel in Reaper, it isn't resetting.

[IMG]http://img534.**************/img534/7977/ccvalue.png[/IMG]

I'm thinking that I must be missing something about how drum sampler hi-hat control works.

[brainwreck]

Btw, I tried using the expression pedal from a pod hd, and it is doing the same thing.

[V'ger]

I seem to have seen a plugin that kept the last set CC but don't know if it was a Reaper JS one, but check if there's one that will work here:
http://www.s-production.de/index_vst.html
http://www.thepiz.org/plugins/?p=pizmidi
http://asseca.com/nicfit/index.html
http://www.tobybear.de/p_midibag.html
http://www.asseca.com/soma/

[brainwreck]

It looks like the cc value is being reset in the drum sampler plugins, not in Reaper, so I don't see a plugin changing anything. Looking at the recorded cc performance in the pic above, and seeing the readout in Addictive Drums verifies this. There has to be something that I'm missing here. I can't be the first person to ever run into this. Surely someone else out there is using a mod wheel or expression pedal to control hi-hat in one of these drum samplers.

[V'ger]

But if it's not reset on playback stop, but by releasing the controller it means somehow the absence of mod wheel data will do the reset, so maybe a fix then is to put a CC LFO plugin in front set to the slightest of movement, just enough to prevent the reset.

[brainwreck]

So far, I have tried mapping the mod wheel, an expression pedal, and a knob on my keyboard to cc4, and all of them behave the same way. Reaper is recording the cc values, and the MIDI editor is showing that the last value change is being recorded until the next value change. But why aren't the drum samplers seeing it this way?

[IMG]http://img827.**************/img827/3263/ccvaluehold.png[/IMG]

[brainwreck]

Originally Posted by V'ger

But if it's not reset on playback stop, but by releasing the controller it means somehow the absence of mod wheel data will do the reset, so maybe a fix then is to put a CC LFO plugin in front set to the slightest of movement, just enough to prevent the reset.

Looking at the pic that I posted above, it doesn't look like the cc value is being changed by releasing the controller. It seems as if that is happening, only because of how the drum samplers are behaving.........or so I think.

[V'ger]

Lol.

But the thing alway works fine when it's getting CC data, so it should always work if it gets a continuous stream, a CC LFO + CC hold plugin combination should do it. (if they exist)

[brainwreck]

Originally Posted by V'ger

Lol.

But the thing alway works fine when it's getting CC data, so it should always work if it gets a continuous stream, a CC LFO + CC hold plugin combination should do it. (if they exist)

Hmmmm. I think you're onto something, Jeeves.



So, are those transparent areas between the cc values in the MIDI editor the points at which cc data stops? It must be. How in the hell has anyone up to this point controlled hi-hat with a MIDI control? When I looked through the links that you posted above, I'm not seeing a hold type plugin.

[V'ger]

Double-LOL

Maybe the LFO will be enough? Should be several of those, Sir.

And did you check the JS pluings? How about in Stash, Sir? https://stash.reaper.fm/

[V'ger]

How about S-CC-Sustain-Lite in the first link?

[brainwreck]

Originally Posted by V'ger

Double-LOL

Maybe the LFO will be enough? Should be several of those, Sir.

And did you check the JS pluings? How about in Stash, Sir? https://stash.reaper.fm/

The LFO was a no go, and I'm not seeing anything in the stash. Btw, how are you thinking that the lfo will work? I can kind of imagine how it might work, but I'm not sure that I'm thinking the same thing that you are.

Originally Posted by V'ger

How about S-CC-Sustain-Lite in the first link?

Reaper doesn't even want to find that one.

[V'ger]

I'm thinking you use a hold CC plugin, then that sets the frequency of the following lfo plugin which in turn you have set to oscillate slightly (on the desired CC number).

So the LFO then sends to that CC value a constant steam to prevent the reset.

But not sure the hold plugin is necessary if you connect the LFO value to the mod wheel, so try again another LFO plugin and MIDI learn the mod wheel to the LFO value. (or use Reaper's native MIDI learn (Param - Learn button in the FX window) if the plugin doesn't have normal MIDI learn).

[brainwreck]

Since no one has mentioned anything yet about their own experience with controlling hi-hats in Reaper, I'm going to try Fl Studio to see if it behaves the same way - not saying that it is a Reaper issue, but it won't hurt to find out.

[brainwreck]

Originally Posted by V'ger

I'm thinking you use a hold CC plugin, then that sets the frequency of the following lfo plugin which in turn you have set to oscillate slightly (on the desired CC number).

So the LFO then sends to that CC value a constant steam to prevent the reset.

I was thinking along the same lines with the lfo, but it seems like the frequency would need to be pretty high in order to not get choppy switching between hi-hat articulations when on the edge of two cc zones......if that makes any sense.

[brainwreck]

Originally Posted by V'ger

But not sure the hold plugin is necessary if you connect the LFO value to the mod wheel, so try again another LFO plugin and MIDI learn the mod wheel to the LFO value. (or use Reaper's native MIDI learn (Param - Learn button in the FX window) if the plugin doesn't have normal MIDI learn).

I'll give that a try after this fl studio thing.

[V'ger]

Originally Posted by brainwreck

I was thinking along the same lines with the lfo, but it seems like the frequency would need to be pretty high in order to not get choppy switching between hi-hat articulations when on the edge of two cc zones......if that makes any sense.

Just make it the tiniest of oscillations, maybe just between 2 CC values. Doesn't have to be fast, but that would of course work too.

[brainwreck]

Originally Posted by V'ger

Just make it the tiniest of oscillations, maybe just between 2 CC values. Doesn't have to be fast, but that would of course work too.

Same result in fl. I found a js cc lfo in the stash, but it isn't giving up the goods - the output results in either no change or choppy switching.

This is almost comical.

[gofer]

I assume it has to do with how those e-HiHat pedals work in combination with the e-HiHat trigger pad itself (I think the note triggered by the e-drum pad changes with the pedal position, not sure really). It must make some sense or they wouldn't do it. I guess they are forced to do quite a bunch of MIDI trickery to simulate what happens on the real thing as close as possible.

In EzDrummer I found that if you trigger the HiHat from F#1 (2 octaves below the GM closed HiHat) it works more like you would expect from a non e-drum point of view. CC4 maximum is fully closed, CC4 minimum is fully open, in-between is in-between - and it stays like that . Don't know whether AD and the others have such a "keyboard drummer helper key" as well.

EDIT: F#1 is not working in all of EzDrummer's kits. Eg not in Nashville or DFH. Does work with Standard and Jazz and probably some more.

[carbon]

padKontrol for an example has a "hold" button for the XY pad to keep the last touched values.

[brainwreck]

Originally Posted by gofer

I assume it has to do with how those e-HiHat pedals work in combination with the e-HiHat trigger pad itself (I think the note triggered by the e-drum pad changes with the pedal position, not sure really). It must make some sense or they wouldn't do it. I guess they are forced to do quite a bunch of MIDI trickery to simulate what happens on the real thing as close as possible.

In EzDrummer I found that if you trigger the HiHat from F#1 (2 octaves below the GM closed HiHat) it works more like you would expect from a non e-drum point of view. CC4 maximum is fully closed, CC4 minimum is fully open, in-between is in-between - and it stays like that . Don't know whether AD and the others have such a "keyboard drummer helper key" as well.

EDIT: F#1 is not working in all of EzDrummer's kits. Eg not in Nashville or DFH. Does work with Standard and Jazz and probably some more.

Sweet! That is what I was looking for. It works with Vintage Rock and The Classic, too.

I wonder what these drum samplers are doing internally to hold the cc value. Someone here on the forum wrote a plugin called 'cc hihat controller', but I never could get it working because of this cc value issue.

Originally Posted by carbon

padKontrol for an example has a "hold" button for the XY pad to keep the last touched values.

I have a Padkontrol, and when I tried the hold function here, it didn't work so well. It seems like these drum samplers are doing something different than what the Padkontrol does.

[Guido]

Originally Posted by gofer

I assume it has to do with how those e-HiHat pedals work in combination with the e-HiHat trigger pad itself (I think the note triggered by the e-drum pad changes with the pedal position, not sure really). It must make some sense or they wouldn't do it. I guess they are forced to do quite a bunch of MIDI trickery to simulate what happens on the real thing as close as possible.

In EzDrummer I found that if you trigger the HiHat from F#1 (2 octaves below the GM closed HiHat) it works more like you would expect from a non e-drum point of view. CC4 maximum is fully closed, CC4 minimum is fully open, in-between is in-between - and it stays like that . Don't know whether AD and the others have such a "keyboard drummer helper key" as well.

EDIT: F#1 is not working in all of EzDrummer's kits. Eg not in Nashville or DFH. Does work with Standard and Jazz and probably some more.

Hi,

In my experience in ether Superior or BFD, u can set a global funtion regarding this. In BFD its called "All Hi Hats Variable"..which means that one midi note along with CC info runs thru all the articulations. eg. closed to open and in betwween. Most mid to high end drum brains allow u to change what notes are sent out per zone {say head not rim of HH pad} and they usualy send three..pedal down..chip hh...a closed and an open aong with settings for change point. What CC value to change notes. Some like the Yamahas send more notes per the 0-127 range of CCpedal info..

On my Roland I set it to send two notes...The pedal "chick" sound..and one note for the rest. The CC # 4 info does the rest. Same for rim or edge of the HH.

Sorry brainwreck I never could musicly do the modwheel thing but I do use a footpedal coonected to my Midi keyboard that seems to work fine..no bottom chick sound tho.

Originally Posted by brainwreck

In the semi-open position, the hi-hat is wayyy louder than in other positions, the open position being the lowest in volume, which sounds like the samples being put out are room mics only.

Dont know bout Eco but in BFD u go to the right in the main window ..select the picture of the HH first...about half way down on the right is a rectangle saying Articulations..its a flip menu..select the artic. u want and then turn down {or raise} the volume or the artics response to velocity. Sorry if I have misunderstood ur prob.

Guido

[gofer]

Actually I spent a bit of time and tried to emulate a part of what's happening in a Logic environment. My assumption was right that the HiHat pad sends different notes determined by the value of the pedal openness.

A few keys up from that F#1 you'll find a little group of HiHat from closed to very open (A#1 is closed edge, C2 a tad open, C#2 half open, D2 is open (plus a Foot Splash on B and the Pedal Chick on the A below).

I chose a single key and built a routing that mapped it to the different HiHat keys, depending on which CC value came in last. So if the pedal is closed my key triggers the closed sound and if the pedal is open the key triggers the open sound (and all of the variations nicely in between). The outcome is pretty good. Actually F#1 plus modwheel is sounding similar, but with the mapping magic it's more convincing when you open the HiHat while it sounds. It just feels a bit more variable.

The MIDI drum brains go further than that (apart from that the whole key shebang is probably doubled for HiHat edge and bell sounds). I think they calculate when (and with which velocity) a "Foot Splash" gets triggered by how long the pedal is closed before you re-open it. I couldn't emulate that with Logic.
I also couldn't do a convincing "Chick". All I could do is use the CC value 0 to trigger that key, but it's just a single velocity (and it needs to be on the low side, because it will also be triggered when the Controller is closed very slowly) .
While the splash could be done in software, the pedal chick is a hardware problem. Probably there is a velocity sensitive trigger under the hardware pedal triggering the note.


But I found this interesting program: edrum MIDI Mapper which seems to be able to pull the splash sound and the note mapping off. I didn't try yet, but I guess I will.

It would be very interesting to have a look at a MIDI file that's recorded using a top notch MIDI HiHat rig.


EDIT: Ah, it took a while to type this Interesting info from Guido in the meantime. I figure the F#1 in EzDrummer would be the key corresponding to BFD's "All Hi Hats Variable" then.

[Guido]

Originally Posted by gofer

Actually I spent a bit of time and tried to emulate a part of what's happening in a Logic environment. My assumption was right that the HiHat pad sends different notes determined by the value of the pedal openness.

A few keys up from that F#1 you'll find a little group of HiHat from closed to very open (A#1 is closed edge, C2 a tad open, C#2 half open, D2 is open (plus a Foot Splash on B and the Pedal Chick on the A below).

I chose a single key and built a routing that mapped it to the different HiHat keys, depending on which CC value came in last. So if the pedal is closed my key triggers the closed sound and if the pedal is open the key triggers the open sound (and all of the variations nicely in between). The outcome is pretty good. Actually F#1 plus modwheel is sounding similar, but with the mapping magic it's more convincing when you open the HiHat while it sounds. It just feels a bit more variable.

The MIDI drum brains go further than that (apart from that the whole key shebang is probably doubled for HiHat edge and bell sounds). I think they calculate when (and with which velocity) a "Foot Splash" gets triggered by how long the pedal is closed before you re-open it. I couldn't emulate that with Logic.
I also couldn't do a convincing "Chick". All I could do is use the CC value 0 to trigger that key, but it's just a single velocity (and it needs to be on the low side, because it will also be triggered when the Controller is closed very slowly) .
While the splash could be done in software, the pedal chick is a hardware problem. Probably there is a velocity sensitive trigger under the hardware pedal triggering the note.


But I found this interesting program: edrum MIDI Mapper which seems to be able to pull the splash sound and the note mapping off. I didn't try yet, but I guess I will.

It would be very interesting to have a look at a MIDI file that's recorded using a top notch MIDI HiHat rig.


EDIT: Ah, it took a while to type this Interesting info from Guido in the meantime. I figure the F#1 in EzDrummer would be the key corresponding to BFD's "All Hi Hats Variable" then.

Hi,

U are absulutely correct on all points...tho the part of the brain..at least in Rolands..that handles when to "crossover" to another note is not complicated..much of the changes in sound in response to pedal pos and velocity of hit..is done in the soundsource. The Yamahas tend to send multiple notes.

In regard to some software remapping for the op. I would go with Jeffos great cc hi hat controller. I haven't reproduced the cc reset ptoblem here yet.
I even use it to remap the positional sensing that the head of my old ride pad puts out..thanks to the brain. The exact middle of the head preditably produces a CC#16 value of 127 {besides the note on}, which I then use Jeffos awesome plug to convert to a third midi note for the pad..instant THREE way ride. Rim goes to a crash/ride sound, head...'cept middle.. goes to normal ride WITH position up to value 126^^..and on 127, the exact middle, bell!!YAY!That one took a while to find out.^^

I dont have a top flight hh setup..In my ekit I have a collection of mostly 10 to 15 year old pads..mostly Rolands, but I still use a couple from the second set of pads I bought in the 80's..German made Dynacords!! But I always try and stay up with the most current state of the art brain and snare pad I can afford^^ So I use an old Roland pedal... its an FD7 I think, and an old Roland Pd7 2Zone rubber pad. Nonetheless I would be happy to post a file..one thing Ive found tho..diff hihats ..even from the same library and same engine..need some response/volume tweeking. Maybe a little more on the BFD side over Superior or {the least tweekable }, the brains internal sounds. Sry no intent to hijack your post brainwreck^^

will try and emulate ur issue.

Guido

[Guido]

Hi,
brainwreck.. I just tried my midi keyboard with a footpedal sending CC#4 to superior in Reaper.Sorry but it works as expected here.

In superior in the construction page right click on the hh.On the bottom right under Instrument is a flip menu of articulations.. make sure edit articulation only is lit...in the flip menu choose hatsTrig..click the learn button and hit ,say, A#1. Sorry if u already did this.

otherwise Im stumped.

Guido

[brainwreck]

Originally Posted by Guido

Dont know bout Eco but in BFD u go to the right in the main window ..select the picture of the HH first...about half way down on the right is a rectangle saying Articulations..its a flip menu..select the artic. u want and then turn down {or raise} the volume or the artics response to velocity. Sorry if I have misunderstood ur prob.

Guido

Eco and BFD must differ on this. I think that the problem I was having was specific to the either the kit or kit piece. Then again, Eco acts strange here sometimes. I have noticed a few random bugs here and there.

Originally Posted by gofer

But I found this interesting program: edrum MIDI Mapper which seems to be able to pull the splash sound and the note mapping off. I didn't try yet, but I guess I will.

Yea, that looks worth a try. I think that I'll check it out, too.

Originally Posted by Guido

In regard to some software remapping for the op. I would go with Jeffos great cc hi hat controller. I haven't reproduced the cc reset ptoblem here yet.

I tried that plugin before, but I was getting the same problem with the cc value resetting. It looks like this is happening before any plugins. Basically, when moving the mod wheel, the cc value seems to only be relevant as long as the wheel is moving. I got the same result when using a knob or an expression pedal. I think that you can see how this would mess up how Jeffos' plugin works.

Originally Posted by Guido

Hi,
brainwreck.. I just tried my midi keyboard with a footpedal sending CC#4 to superior in Reaper.Sorry but it works as expected here.

In superior in the construction page right click on the hh.On the bottom right under Instrument is a flip menu of articulations.. make sure edit articulation only is lit...in the flip menu choose hatsTrig..click the learn button and hit ,say, A#1. Sorry if u already did this.

otherwise Im stumped.

Guido

When I tried this in Superior with my expession pedal, I got the same result as I did with the mod wheel. Can you post a little screenshot of the cc data from the MIDI editor as you move your expression pedal? I'm wondering if something is different in the incoming data between our MIDI keyboards. I posted a screenshot in post #3 of this thread of my mod wheel data, which is pretty similar to what I see from my expression pedal.

[Guido]

Hi,

Happy Easter..Passover..Sunday!

Man this has got to be frustrating for u..sry...i know u will get it sorted!




btw high purple bars a closed hh and low..o..open.

EDIT..My stupid yammy keboard sends out unwanted Channel aftertouch data when u hit the keys with some force..say 122 and up..and with Superior that aftertouch stuff was choking the decay of the hats. I say this becaue maybe some other CC data my be being put out on your system? another controller connected? just wild guesses now..sry bud. btw ur shot in post 3 looks "kosher" to me.

Guido

ps gofer..i am afraid to post a clip of a manual here..legal wise..but at the back of the BFD2 manual is an excellent explanation of hh strategies as relates to edrums. Whether or not to use multiple notes..easier to edit in sequencer..or one note per position..head or rim..and edit the CC pedal data. when programed right u end up with the same "sounds".

EDIT2 I forgot to put up the mid file of the above keyboard test..here...https://stash.reaper.fm/12234/CCtest.mid

[KevinW]

Originally Posted by brainwreck

Eco and BFD must differ on this. I think that the problem I was having was specific to the either the kit or kit piece. Then again, Eco acts strange here sometimes. I have noticed a few random bugs here and there.



Yea, that looks worth a try. I think that I'll check it out, too.



I tried that plugin before, but I was getting the same problem with the cc value resetting. It looks like this is happening before any plugins. Basically, when moving the mod wheel, the cc value seems to only be relevant as long as the wheel is moving. I got the same result when using a knob or an expression pedal. I think that you can see how this would mess up how Jeffos' plugin works.



When I tried this in Superior with my expession pedal, I got the same result as I did with the mod wheel. Can you post a little screenshot of the cc data from the MIDI editor as you move your expression pedal? I'm wondering if something is different in the incoming data between our MIDI keyboards. I posted a screenshot in post #3 of this thread of my mod wheel data, which is pretty similar to what I see from my expression pedal.

I realize I'm jumping in late to this discussion, but I just wanted to say that with AD, using either CC4 or CC1 (according to AD, CC1 is secondary HH controller), I get expected results. Note that I am just drawing in the CC's, not using a mod wheel or foot pedal. If there's any experimenting I can do for you, let me know. The CC's retain their value, as far as I can tell.

[Guido]

Hi,

sry i have no life^^

brain..if i may call u brain..^^one more wild goose..i mean possible explanation..lets just stay with Superior here.

I seem to remember when installing,i think, some option or Wizard to help setup the install. One of the options was whether u were using a keboard or edrums.
One of the keyboard options was auto pedal event.which i guess auto chokes open hats..hmmm?. And this could be from BFD's install. Just a wild flash while i was smoking^^

Did u try and play the test mid file i put up? does it do the same thing?

Good luck

Guido

[brainwreck]

Originally Posted by Guido

Hi,

sry i have no life^^

brain..if i may call u brain..^^one more wild goose..i mean possible explanation..lets just stay with Superior here.

I seem to remember when installing,i think, some option or Wizard to help setup the install. One of the options was whether u were using a keboard or edrums.
One of the keyboard options was auto pedal event.which i guess auto chokes open hats..hmmm?. And this could be from BFD's install. Just a wild flash while i was smoking^^

Did u try and play the test mid file i put up? does it do the same thing?

Good luck

Guido

'Brain' is nice. I probably just need to dig into Superior's settings a little more than what I have.