Old 05-24-2021, 04:08 PM   #1
matt_t
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Default v6.29+dev0524 - May 24 2021

v6.29+dev0524 - May 24 2021
  • * Includes feature branch: render normalization
  • * Includes feature branch: MIDI editor note reordering
  • * Includes feature branch: EEL2 x86_64/SSE
  • * Includes feature branch: VST3 bridging
  • * Includes feature branch: media item lanes
  • + Actions: cycle folder collapsed state will not modify state of selected non-folder tracks
  • + Render: allow rendering to primary/secondary of the same type (e.g. wav 16-bit and 24-bit, $bitdepth recommended in wildcard)
  • + Render: apply dither/noise shaping to secondary render format if enabled and format supports
  • + Render: disable audio normalizing for video renders
  • + Render: display peak, rms, and overs when normalizing
  • + Render: improve render speed when normalizing
  • + Render: show first actual file used when rendering to multiple files that are autodisambiguated
  • + Super8: allow controlling loop length via automatable parameter
  • + Super8: fix off-by-one-sample error in first-pass recording
  • + Super8: per-channel length-division setting
  • # Render: display render meters post-normalization for greater-than-mono tracks
  • # Render: if normalization would require adding more than 60dB, don't normalize
  • # super8: fix sync mode reset bug added with hidden parameter
This thread is for pre-release features discussion. Use the Feature Requests forum for other requests.

Changelog - Pre-Releases

Generated by X-Raym's REAPER ChangeLog to BBCode
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Old 05-24-2021, 05:03 PM   #2
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Is there any hope of MIDI Editor note re-ordering being made to work at a track-level (versus item) and recallable with Track Templates? I recognize I'm likely in the minority, but that would be way more useful to me than rending to a set output level as I use drum software in Reaper daily and would love to better organize the editors.
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Old 05-24-2021, 06:06 PM   #3
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Is there any hope of MIDI Editor note re-ordering being made to work at a track-level (versus item) and recallable with Track Templates? I recognize I'm likely in the minority, but that would be way more useful to me than rending to a set output level as I use drum software in Reaper daily and would love to better organize the editors.
You aren't in the minority at all. I think most of us want note re-ordering to work on a track level.
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Old 05-24-2021, 06:52 PM   #4
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Recalling the note reordering from file still doesn't seem to work here (as reported e.g. here).
Well it does work for me when loading the note names file in the same MIDI editor I've saved it with, but e.g. not when restarting Reaper and loading it then.

Re: re-ordering per track
Agreed. I gotta say the note reordering is currently not really useable for me with using one MIDI editor per project, because it persists across tracks and (imo) doesn't make much sense for tonal instruments (mentioned here also), or I don't understand its intended use.
And seems I can't switch back to (non-reordered) piano keys for these tracks either because then it resets the reordering.
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Old 05-24-2021, 08:22 PM   #5
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Originally Posted by matt_t View Post
v6.29+dev0524 - May 24 2021
[list][*] * Includes feature branch: render normalization
[*]+ Render: allow rendering to primary/secondary of the same type (e.g. wav 16-bit and 24-bit, $bitdepth recommended in wildcard)

Generated by X-Raym's REAPER ChangeLog to BBCode
is the render normalization independent for each render (primary/secondary)?

e.g. can you render 24 bit file with no normalization whilst also rendering a 16bit file that is 6db hotter?
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Old 05-24-2021, 08:47 PM   #6
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Re: re-ordering per track
Agreed. I gotta say the note reordering is currently not really useable for me with using one MIDI editor per project, because it persists across tracks and (imo) doesn't make much sense for tonal instruments (mentioned here also), or I don't understand its intended use.
And seems I can't switch back to (non-reordered) piano keys for these tracks either because then it resets the reordering.
Yeah, this just wasn't very well thought out imho. I think the disconnect here is most people doing serious midi work are using one midi editor per project. And it's as if the devs think most users are using one per item, which is basically unusable for serious midi editing work.

If you are re-ordering notes, you are doing it for a specific instrument, e.g. a specific track. Specific drum kit on this track? You want to re-order the notes for that track. Specific percussion instrument on this track? Same thing. There's almost no point having the feature unless it is tied to a specific track as that is the use case for this feature - reordering the notes of a specific instrument, not of an item. And certainly not re-ordering notes for every single instrument in your project when using one midi editor per project. That makes zero sense.

Devs, you really might want to listen to the feedback you're getting on this.
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Old 05-24-2021, 10:43 PM   #7
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Default # Render: if normalization would require adding more than 60dB, don't normalize

I think, it also would be great to have a maximum adjustment value, which user could change.
So if this value is 10db, sounds need more value to be normalised will adjusted only for 10.
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Old 05-25-2021, 01:58 AM   #8
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Originally Posted by Klangfarben View Post
Yeah, this just wasn't very well thought out imho. I think the disconnect here is most people doing serious midi work are using one midi editor per project. And it's as if the devs think most users are using one per item, which is basically unusable for serious midi editing work.

If you are re-ordering notes, you are doing it for a specific instrument, e.g. a specific track. Specific drum kit on this track? You want to re-order the notes for that track. Specific percussion instrument on this track? Same thing. There's almost no point having the feature unless it is tied to a specific track as that is the use case for this feature - reordering the notes of a specific instrument, not of an item. And certainly not re-ordering notes for every single instrument in your project when using one midi editor per project. That makes zero sense.

Devs, you really might want to listen to the feedback you're getting on this.
Yup, agreed.

But I think the issue here stems from the fact that MIDI editor in Reaper is tied to the item FIRST, rather than project FIRST. So one ME per track/per project options are kind of additional scaffolding around that. So devs would need to add this same scaffolding to work properly in one ME per track and one ME per project scenarios.

Either way, these things should get fixed so that the feature works how users expect it to work (which is - one remapping per track, and cannot change remapping per item - it would still be stored in each individual item, but that should just be a pointer to the one remapping used by all items of the same track).
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Old 05-25-2021, 02:45 AM   #9
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it would still be stored in each individual item, but that should just be a pointer to the one remapping used by all items of the same track).
Makes sense.
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Old 05-25-2021, 03:13 AM   #10
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Originally Posted by d. gauss View Post
is the render normalization independent for each render (primary/secondary)?

e.g. can you render 24 bit file with no normalization whilst also rendering a 16bit file that is 6db hotter?
Not at the moment. That wouldn't be difficult to add, but it doesn't seem like a typical use case?
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Old 05-25-2021, 03:30 AM   #11
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Originally Posted by EvilDragon
I think the issue here stems from the fact that MIDI editor in Reaper is tied to the item FIRST, rather than project FIRST. So one ME per track/per project options are kind of additional scaffolding around that.
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Originally Posted by Klangfarben View Post
the disconnect here is most people doing serious midi work are using one midi editor per project... it's as if the devs think most users are using one per item, which is basically unusable for serious midi editing work.
the sooner this gets heeded, the better. these quotes could be referencing a number of REAPER MIDI editor issues, not just note reordering.

even while using one-editor-per-project: viewing the entirety of a project's MIDI through the peephole of a single item at a time is the MIDI editor's last/greatest weakness.
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Old 05-25-2021, 03:44 AM   #12
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Not at the moment. That wouldn't be difficult to add, but it doesn't seem like a typical use case?
I'd find it useful - for example, rendering a 24 bit wav for archiving plus an mp3 boosted up to hit a web delivery loudness target (obviously more useful if/when rendering to a LUFS value is added).

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Old 05-25-2021, 06:55 AM   #13
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Yes, since it seems to fit here, another issue I ran into with the current item centric approach (unless me and the other posters missed something):
How to change note shape (rectangles/triangles) of multiple MIDI items at once?

While if we could have a track centric approach I could have just set that track to the desired view and be done with it.

Last edited by nofish; 05-25-2021 at 07:56 AM.
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Old 05-25-2021, 06:59 AM   #14
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Quote:
Includes feature branch: render normalization
Is it possible to normalize many audio files in many folders including subfolders with Batch File/Item Converter?

Is it possible to normalize to a specific value, e.g. -1 dB or -6 dB?

Would it be possible to normalize with Replay Gain?

Last edited by mawi; 05-25-2021 at 07:09 AM.
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Old 05-25-2021, 07:24 AM   #15
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Yes, since it seems to fit here, another issue I ran into with the current item centric approach (unless me and the other posters missed something):
How to change note shape (rectangles/triangles) of multiple MIDI items at once?

While if we could have a track centric approach I could have just set that track to the desired view and be done with it.
Again, part of the disconnect imho. The above IS the most common use case. Set your track with this specific drumkit loaded to triangle note-heads. Move on to another track with regular note-heads and when you move back to that drum track, it is still triangle note-heads in the ME. Because the devs don't regularly use midi, I don't think they understand what the use case actually is. I mean no offense whatsoever by that.

I also think in the case above and with note re-ordering that the devs might think, "well, this will work for most users" which is certainly their prerogative, but in this case incorrect. You need to go off the assumption that most people doing serious midi work are using one editor per project. Which means those two examples, the one above and note reordering, will not work for anyone doing serious midi work, making it useful for people who really only use midi occasionally. Thus meaning, the note reordering feature as-is will NOT work for most users. I would hope that would be a compelling reason to both listen to the feedback here and change it, even if that means it takes more time.
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Old 05-25-2021, 07:28 AM   #16
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Not at the moment. That wouldn't be difficult to add, but it doesn't seem like a typical use case?
very typical here. currently it is a 2 step process for me here:

1 - I render 24bit file to send to mastering (with 6db headroom)

2 - I then render a 16bit file at .03db below zero to give to the client on burned CD for reference
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Old 05-25-2021, 07:51 AM   #17
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Originally Posted by matt_t View Post
v6.29+dev0524 - May 24 2021[*]+ Render: improve render speed when normalizing
Aaah wonderful, thanks a lot! "Improve render speed" is an understatement, it is almost instantaneous now!

Quote:
Originally Posted by matt_t View Post
v6.29+dev0524 - May 24 2021[*]+ Render: disable audio normalizing for video renders
Hmm.. what is the reason for this?

Quote:
Originally Posted by matt_t View Post
v6.29+dev0524 - May 24 2021[*]+ Render: display peak, rms, and overs when normalizing
This would be nice to always have when rendering, not only when normalizing.

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Originally Posted by matt_t View Post
v6.29+dev0524 - May 24 2021[*]# Render: display render meters post-normalization for greater-than-mono tracks
This seems to work only for files or renders of a certain duration. When rendering a a file of 12 seconds (without any processing) it showed only the non-normalized peaks. When I had it render a file of 16 seconds it showed also the normalized peaks. I suppose, when the render is faster than a certain speed threshold it doesn't have the time to draw the peaks.. or something like that?

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Originally Posted by matt_t View Post
v6.29+dev0524 - May 24 2021[*]# Render: if normalization would require adding more than 60dB, don't normalize
Hmm... on one side it makes sense because it otherwise could unintentionally create files with extreme noise.. but I could also see use cases where someone might want to render a very quite sound to bring up the noise floor and do whatever weird things with it. Not that I care all too much tough.

Other related feedback

1) CRASH
This is a weird one.. maybe unrelated but I figured I better mention it as it was the first time it happened. While I was rendering a heavier project with Normalizing ON, Reaper just quit mid-render without any crash report. This happened twice in a row. With Normalizing OFF it never happened.
Also I suspect it has to do with MacOS overheating because it only happened when native Turbo Boost is enabled (CPU heat can go up to 99°C when rendering). Most of the time I use Turbo Boost Switcher to turn it off tough and as said, in that case it didn't crash.
System: MacOS High Sierra with a Mid 2015 MBP i7 2,2GHz

2) dB OVERS?
Sometime (on several projects) when normalizing to 0dB it shows clipping at 1 point, stating "Over +0dB: 1" as shown in this example:

What does this mean? Shouldn't it prevent all overs if I normalize to 0dB?

3) NO NULL WITH ITEM NORMALIZTION
I have tried a nulltest between 2 versions of the same file, one normalized on render and the other one normalized with the inbuilt normalization in item properties. The master peaked around -80dB.
When I boosted the gain of the item with the normalization from item properties by +0.01dB, I got down to -100dB. Closer but still no actual null.
Shouldn't normalizing be a consistent process with predictable result, at least within Reaper?
Of course this test has been done on files with no FX processing.

4) WEIRD RENDER PEAKS
It seems that peaks on rendering look different in the dev version as opposed to the official v6.29. Seems like 0dB is actually outside the visible range. Here a comparison:

-12dB peak @ v6.29


-12dB peak @ v6.29+dev0524


0dB peak @ v6.29


0dB peak @ v6.29+dev0524


5) ACCESIBILITY SUGGESTION
Maybe this is more of the nitpick but wouldn't it be possible to make normalization a bit more quickly accessible by putting it on the main render dialog? Somewhat like this:



Thanks lot for the work on the Normalization feature which I have been waiting for a long time! Hope my feedbacks are useful and appreciated.
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Old 05-25-2021, 07:53 AM   #18
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Originally Posted by mccrabney View Post
even while using one-editor-per-project: viewing the entirety of a project's MIDI through the peephole of a single item at a time is the MIDI editor's last/greatest weakness.
Agreed but MIDI Editor's greatest weakness is the lack of Razor Edits in the MIDI Editor, and general inconsistency/disconnect between MIDI Editor and Arrange View.

Our current options:
1. Requiring ReaControlMIDI to edit CCs in Arrange View (to take advantage of Razor Edits), which means you need to bounce between MIDI Editor and Arrange View to effectively work on MIDI.

2. Using MIDI Editor exclusively, no Razor Edits, CC editing is not consistent with point/line/curve drawing in Arrange View.

Both workflows are incomplete.

Any focus on MIDI Editor (while note reordering is being looked at) would help alleviate this glaring weakness not present in the other DAWs.
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Old 05-25-2021, 07:56 AM   #19
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+ Render: improve render speed when normalizing
Second pass (the actual normalizing) is now significantly faster than first pass here.
Using file conversion instead of an actual second render?
Anyway, seems like well done.
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Old 05-25-2021, 08:10 AM   #20
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Re super 8 per channel length division tweak,
It's V cool, would be cooler if automatable so user can control externally.

-

I suppose the ability to do some slot *pitch* tweakery is out of the question? (Helps with the drag drop aspect)

Thanks anyhow
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Old 05-25-2021, 08:30 AM   #21
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Second pass (the actual normalizing) is now significantly faster than first pass here.
Using file conversion instead of an actual second render?
Anyway, seems like well done.
However they have done it, I am sure they have settled for the best possible way
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Old 05-25-2021, 12:28 PM   #22
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Agreed but MIDI Editor's greatest weakness is the lack of Razor Edits in the MIDI Editor, and general inconsistency/disconnect between MIDI Editor and Arrange View.

Our current options:
1. Requiring ReaControlMIDI to edit CCs in Arrange View (to take advantage of Razor Edits), which means you need to bounce between MIDI Editor and Arrange View to effectively work on MIDI.

2. Using MIDI Editor exclusively, no Razor Edits, CC editing is not consistent with point/line/curve drawing in Arrange View.

Both workflows are incomplete.

Any focus on MIDI Editor (while note reordering is being looked at) would help alleviate this glaring weakness not present in the other DAWs.
Point 2 is a bummer for my worklflow, and there's no easy flow in point 1.
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Old 05-25-2021, 02:23 PM   #23
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No normalization feature in the batch file/item converter? (maybe that is an upcoming feature)

The "normalize to peak" option, is that sample peak or true peak ("inter-sample peak")? I would like to see an option where both those options would be available (but for me true peak is probably the most important option I guess..)
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Old 05-26-2021, 03:48 AM   #24
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Originally Posted by ferropop
MIDI Editor's greatest weakness is the lack of Razor Edits in the MIDI Editor
hm, i think you'd be pretty disappointed if hypothetical MIDI editor REs only worked on the active MIDI take - which might be the case, unless the single-editor scaffolding issue gets addressed! but yes, i agree about the CCs from arrange.
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