Coil Whine - Only in Reaper

[sameekou]

Bought a new PC (separated gear and mountd it myself).
Everything works fine, but I've got coil whine only when I open Reaper.
Tried already disconnecting all interfaces, open Reaper with in-built Windows drivers but it continues.
Everything is quiet. Open Reaper, coil whine begins!
How come a piece of software interfere in a Power Supply that much?

PS = Red Dragon RGPS GC-PS003 600W Full Module Gaming PC Power Supply
https://www.redragonzone.com/collect...c-power-supply

Thanks for any support.

[ivansc]

Are you sure it is the main power supply that is givcing you the noise?

What are you using for a Audio/MIDI interface?

This sounds more like you have an issue with reaper actually using the interface & picling up interference from the PSU if that really is the cause.
Silly question, but do you have a guitar with single coil pickups plugged into your interface?

It would help if you gave us a full description of your computer system & told us what version of Windows and Reaper you are using, as well.

And of coruse welcome to the forums!
If you didnt already, you might want to check out the free user guide especially with reference to settign up a new system, plus check out the free Video Tutorials, both at reaper.fm

[DVDdoug]

Usually, electrical noise gets into the preamp inside the interface. The preamp is most vulnerable because the weak signals give you a poor signal-to-noise ratio and the noise gets amplified along with the signal, and/or high impedance instrument inputs are vulnerable because of the impedance.


With a USB powered interface switching noise can get in through the USB power.


The USB power in some computers is worse than others and some interfaces are better filtered than others so it's hard to know which one to blame. An interface (or preamp or mixer) with it's own power supply is "safer".

[Tomm]

throwing another idea out there:

do you have any tracks record-armed? maybe you are monitoring a noisey input signal?

also, open task manager, does CPU sky rocket when opening REAPER?

[sameekou]

Replying the comments. Thanks for now!

Yes! I am pretty sure it is the PS! I put my ear literally inside the PC and could tell clearly that it is definetly from the Power Supply.
I am using a Blue Yeti Mic via USB but the problem happens without it. The same with my NanoKONTROL studio. I also have a YAMAHA AG06 but clearly none of them is interfering in the problem.
Using Win 10 and Reaper 6.02.
I am a Reaper User since 2008. I was responsible for translating software manual into Portuguese, so I can use it fairly well. This is the first time I face this issue.
About cabling, I already tried 4 different units, same issue!
In summary, the noise kicks in immediately after Reaper is open and stops immediately after when Reaper is closed.
I can't even ask for RMA because it only happens with Reaper.
About instrument and monitoring. No, no instruments plugged in, I am a voice artist, so mostly I use Reaper for dubbing videos, using only mics.

Thanks for your attention.
Looking forward to fix it soon and hopefully help any other people with the same problem in the future.

If you want to hear the sound, link below (Youtube). The click you hear is not from the PC, so, not related with the issue.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tWMzDiipybk

[Kejnel]

I have the exact same issue as the OP. Reaper is the only software in my computer that causes this. The coil whine comes from my CPU (I have a passively cooled computer so I can hear it very clearly).

Maybe it has something to do with how Reaper uses the CPU?

This is quite an issue because the coil whine gets transfered also to my speakers as an interference.

Can the developers look into it?

Ableton Live does not seem to have this problem even when working with large projects.

EDIT:

A somewhat of a workaround is to disable turbo mode for my Intel CPU. While this will completely silence the coil for all the other programs in my PC, for Reaper it only makes it quieter but still apparent.

[ivansc]

Just a thought: Do both of you happen to live in countries with less than optimal mains electricity supplies? It could be as simple as your supply voltage being at the bottom limit of what the power supplies can run on & running reaper (especially with a bunch of other ancillaries that take extra power, like monitor speakers) is enough to provoke the hum. Trey putting a volt meter across your mains supply & see what you get, Euro standard is 235 to 255 volts AC, IIR

[Kejnel]

Originally Posted by ivansc

Just a thought: Do both of you happen to live in countries with less than optimal mains electricity supplies? It could be as simple as your supply voltage being at the bottom limit of what the power supplies can run on & running reaper (especially with a bunch of other ancillaries that take extra power, like monitor speakers) is enough to provoke the hum. Trey putting a volt meter across your mains supply & see what you get, Euro standard is 235 to 255 volts AC, IIR

The coil whine comes from my CPU (Central processing unit), not PSU.

[bolgwrad]

Does it happen whichever audio interface you select in the preferences?

[Kejnel]

Yes and only (!) in Reaper. Ableton Live, no problem - no coil whine.

If I disable CPU idle state (via regedit) the coil whine goes completely away even within Reaper but the side effect is 100% CPU state and increased temps so I don't want to use this workaround.

So basically Reaper + any form of CPU power saving = the coil whine.

I wonder if it is caused by Reaper's usage of CPU for GUI rendering...

[bolgwrad]

Originally Posted by Kejnel

I wonder if it is caused by Reaper's usage of CPU for GUI rendering...

Interesting. Being an ex video 'technician', I'd see if the whine sound is affected if you switch your theme between a 'virtually black' one and a very white one.

[ivansc]

Originally Posted by Kejnel

The coil whine comes from my CPU (Central processing unit), not PSU.

Yes but the PSU supplies the needed voltage/current to your cpu!

I have known hard drives whine like dying cats when the voltage & amperage supplied to them dropped too fsar.

[ernzo]

You guys keep on having the strangest bugs!

It's been ages since I've had weird static noises,
but it happened here whenever I plugged a Line6 POD-HD500 mofo through USB..

It was a relatively similar high pitched digital/electric noise I could hear through the M-Audio Delta 66 soundcard,
but it didn't get recorded on the audio Tracks themselves. (it was much more subtle tho..)

One day the MSI Mobo I had just died for no reason..
(with alleged military-grade caps)

Swapped it for a twice the cost ASUS mobo, and it's been dead Silent ever since.

I also had a theoretically proper Templarius PSU die a couple years afterwards,
swapped it for a (less fancy) Thermaltake Hamburg, and it's been rolling nicely ever since.

[brynolf]

I also have this "problem". Every time I start Reaper -with my Zoom UAC-8 audio interface on- something inside my (brand new) computer starts to whine. Haven't bothered to open up to check where the sound comes from.

If I turn the interface off, the whine stops.

But it is not a Reaper issue, if I open a standalone instance of Kontakt and flip between audio outputs, the whine appears the moment I select the Zoom interface and disappears when I select something else.

[Glennbo]

If it's happening inside the computer, it's probably the CPU fan. Mine spins up where I can hear it when I launch REAPER, and the moment I close REAPER, I hear it spin back down.

[Kejnel]

Originally Posted by ivansc

Yes but the PSU supplies the needed voltage/current to your cpu!

I have known hard drives whine like dying cats when the voltage & amperage supplied to them dropped too fsar.

OK, please, clarify it for me. Are you saying that insufficient power supply from PSU to the CPU could cause the CPU to whine? Thanks.

[Kejnel]

Originally Posted by Glennbo

If it's happening inside the computer, it's probably the CPU fan. Mine spins up where I can hear it when I launch REAPER, and the moment I close REAPER, I hear it spin back down.

I have no CPU fan. I have a completely fan-less PC and the coil whine can be heard in the case (CPU area) and also in the speakers.

[ivansc]

Originally Posted by Kejnel

OK, please, clarify it for me. Are you saying that insufficient power supply from PSU to the CPU could cause the CPU to whine? Thanks.

It`s basically a crap shoot. Inadequate psu can cause all sorts of fun problems. First time I came across one was on a laptop with a dying external psu supply, where the hard drive started squealing like a stuck pig. I had experienced this before on my wifes laptop & in her case it was caused by overheating, which I fixed by disassembling the laptop & cleaning the cpu fan & all the ducting. It was almost completely blocked with dog fur, carpet fluff, etc. since you are running fanless - presumably water cooled - it might be worth checking that the heat sink paste is still OK.

[Kejnel]

I have noticed that a buffer size plays a massive role in the amount of coil whine audible from the speakers. While 2048 causes a very noticeable coil whine in speakers in Reaper, buffer size of 64 makes it practically inaudible.

Try it out, guys, if you have this problem.

EDIT:

OK, not practically inaudible, but significantly less audible

[sonofmickel]

Same, coil whine ONLY in Reaper, mine comes through the speakers.
Buffer set to 32 is the loudest, 1024 is still there but not as noticeable.

Fix?
Thoughts?

[ivansc]

I feel sorry for you guys if you have already tried all the suggested fixes & are still stuck with the whine.

Maybe there is a common cause that has not been tracked down yet? It does seem like it is more likely to be a hardware issue than anything else now.

How about all of you experiencing this problem post your FULL hardware setup, including what Audio/MIDI interface you are using? Might provide a better clue.

[Icchan]

Coil whine is ALWAYS hardware issue, never software issue.

If the whine comes from your speakers/headphones, and not physically from within the computer itself, then you have RF-interference issue with your system and it's still a HARDWARE issue.

[ivansc]

Originally Posted by Icchan

Coil whine is ALWAYS hardware issue, never software issue.
.

... unless there is a software issue that is affecting the hardware, which really DOES happen from time to time.

[Icchan]

Originally Posted by ivansc

... unless there is a software issue that is affecting the hardware, which really DOES happen from time to time.

Nope, if some very particular load introduces coil whine in your particular unit, or interference, your hardware is at fault.

I've had same exact piece of hardware where the other had no issues, but the other screamed like a banshee when you opened Chrome.

So it's a hardware issue. Bad quality control, design issue with filtering or bad component choice or a bad component, old components... what ever.

[Allybye]

I'll throw my two pence/ten cents worth in.
Mainly to carry on what has been written and support Bolgwrad and
Icchen and I suppose Ivan too.

Some info to understand coil whine and suggest some things that might effect a reduction (other than remote use, using earplugs or building an anechoic chamber round your computer ).

As Iccen wrote two main methods of hearing coil whine.

Via your monitoring (speakers/headphones) and that is an electromagnetic interference cause and so we should be looking at the electrical items interconnects, grounding, screening and noise rejection circuits.

Other methods of transmission to ears i.e. physical vibration producing sound waves not via monitoring. That comes from something vibrating.
(Just a quick not that speakers can and do vibrate in unintended ways such as cabinet or fixings etc that then can be considered a noise such as a rattle, colouration or resonance etc. and that might be confused with the former!)

The latter physical vibrations stem almost entirely from magnetic effects producing forces on components that tend to make them move/vibrate. This is linked to the magnitude of the currents, their frequency and sometimes the resonant frequency the the bits affected. This can be wiring, pcbs but most often inductors and transformers.
There is quite a lot written (and on videos) regarding vibrating inductors in computers i.e. coil whine which does sometimes sound like noise from air movement and fans that too vibrate.
Ideally electrical components should be made such as their vibration is negligible by design. That is not always possible especially in circuits designed and produced to low cost.....not the same as selling price!

There seem to be plenty of concerns regarding the video cards and the quality of inductors used in some. So Bolgwrad is right to suggest a few video tests.
Much of the high current aspects affect the power rails a d their inductors...and how the PSU responds to the often transient peak loading. So Ivan's suggestion that different PSUs can affect is quite possible even if they do not contain the vibrating components. Apart from good engineering diagnostics and understanding the reaction between part of the system it is then just trial and error or from recommendations.

So looking at the causes what can be done relatively easily.
First thing to try is amend the frequencies of possible causes. Reducing (or just changing) your computer's video Frame rate in the graphics controller might help. High frame rates often used by gamers do seem more problematic -they push the boundaries and hence peak currents and frequencies.
Another suggestion I have seen is to use Vsync, Freesync or Vsync if your GPU supports it.
Also physically fixing or damping the vibrating source components can be employed. This can overcome some of the inherent problems with differing inductor/transformer design.
Suggestions are dampen vibrations on individual inductors with high temperature silicon. If you do this only use non corrosive variants and allow to fully set before repowering.
High temperature hot melt glue.
Epoxy resin to support inductors physically where they are sealed packages
Super glue where the inductor coils are accessible.

If you try any of that it is at your own risk!!! Note that some of the component in video circuits can be quite powerful and get hot so do not completely cover them. Allow cooling to take place.
Interestingly although fans are generally acoustically noise it was claimed that water cooled circuits can be more problematic!

I would hope that the better builds have less whine rather than those with better computing performance.

Lastly I do not know how much software spreads CPU load via the available cores but that might have a current averaging affect. It has been in at least one thread that Reaper tends to use a single core (CPU speed giving best performance) and thus perhaps little averaging of current. Further I wonder if video updating might be more prevalent with Reaper but I would then have thought video and games would cause as much or more of an issue. Not according to earlier posts on this thread though!

[ivansc]

Ally: I bought a large tube of silicon gasket former a while back & it is great. Claims to be chemically inert and, most importantly, doesn`t heat up much at all when "setting". I will rummage it out & post the name etc in case anyone wants to try it for this and other reasons. I already used it to dampen body resonance in a condenser mic and it worked a treat. Cheap, too.

EDIT: Found it.
V-tech Vital Red RTV silicone gasket maker. 85gb tube is what I bought & it is still going strong & its warranted up to 650 degrees Fahrenheit, 343 Celsius.

[ivansc]

Originally Posted by Icchan

Nope, if some very particular load introduces coil whine in your particular unit, or interference, your hardware is at fault.

I've had same exact piece of hardware where the other had no issues, but the other screamed like a banshee when you opened Chrome.

So it's a hardware issue. Bad quality control, design issue with filtering or bad component choice or a bad component, old components... what ever.

Yeah, if you are viewing this entirely from the standpoint of proximate cause, but the ROOT cause can be - and often is - OS and/or software application-generated.

This kind of stuff is always like nailing jelly to a wall, so I guess we should all stop playing around with semantics & concentrate on what the possible causes are in terms of what actually causes the hardware to start whining.

Also, this sort of whine isn`t exclusively limited to coils, inductive or resistive. Bit of a head-scratcher.

[Allybye]

Yes not limited to those inductive thingies etc because an electrical current also has associated with it a magnetic field. It will cause any other 'magnetic' or electrically conductive material in close proximity to be subject to the magnetic forces in a very similar way to solenoid action. Can cause all sorts of apparently 'inert' things to buzz!
........my ears are doing it now, not sure if it's my ears or brain that is the inert bit!


On the cause however I agree with Icchen. There are several things that might trigger the vibration (proximate) but the fault (root) is the susceptibility to the forces causing movement, n'est ce pas?..or something...

[Icchan]

IcchAn... please ;D

[Allybye]

Apologies!! Old brain....

[ciros]

same to me:
I hear coil whine ONLY when using reaper: i didn't found another software capable to makes my pc produce the same noise, i also tried cpu-gpu benchmarks but without results: reaper only.
It doesn't came from speakers but from the pc case directly. i tried to isolate the problem disconnecting the hdd but the noise persists.

The interesting facts are:

Coil whine starts when reaper starts, and stops instants or seconds after reaper closes, this is related to project load (number of plugins to kill, etc).

With a new/blank project the coil whine stops if reaper is minimized or the reaper window looses the focus (ie opening windows start menu during reaper usage), but if reaper is in play mode then coil whine continue also if reaper is minimized.

With a project (ie with plugins) coil whine doesn't stop when reaper is minimized or looses the focus. In this scenario, if i both kill the reaper 32&64bit hosts tasks and disarm every track, then i minimize reaper windows or change focus, the coil whine will stop; but if daw is in play mode no chance for my ears: the coil whine continues.

Changing buffer size and thread prority (from reaper settings or taskmanager) don't affect coil whine loudness of my pc.

The only software tweak I found for avoiding coil whine while using reaper (for reaper usage i mean that the reaper window is focused, some plugins are loaded, there are armed tracks and the daw is in play mode) is through changing cpu affinity of reaper.exe from task manager: the more cores are selected then louder will be the coil whine. but isn't seem an acceptable solution...

I supposes that the only acceptable manner to really avoid or reduce coil whine is acting via hardware: with a little lucky it's possibile find the responsable electrical component (maybe a capacitor) localizing the noise with ours ears, then apply a wax or silicon on it (there are interesting guides on the net)...
... or simply move pc away from your ears (that is an evergreen hint, also for reduce perceived fans loudness).

[Icchan]

Originally Posted by ciros

I hear coil whine ONLY when using reaper...

What's actually going on is that your motherboards power delivery is "faulty" and the coils start to whine when there's very particular load on the CPU.

So again, it's hardware issue, not software issue.

No matter the load, coil whine should not happen.

That's why you don't buy the cheapest of boards and when you get it, you test thoroughly and return it if any coil whine is detected.

[ciros]

Originally Posted by Icchan

What's actually going on is that your motherboards power delivery is "faulty" and the coils start to whine when there's very particular load on the CPU.

So again, it's hardware issue, not software issue.

No matter the load, coil whine should not happen.

That's why you don't buy the cheapest of boards and when you get it, you test thoroughly and return it if any coil whine is detected.

I have an high quality hardware setup (including power supply, motherboard and fans) that doesnt' makes coil whine even with benchmarks, games or cpu burning tools. I didn't found any other software capable of produce that noise, reaper only.. this is quite strange: installing a fresh copy of reaper, open it with a new project and coil whine starts..

What me and other users that have the same issue are trying to say isn't that reaper is bad or bugged, but only make clarity about this strange behvaiour, for love of truth and for informing other users that fall in the same situation (and starts to think they are crazy until they foind this thread)...

One interesting think i've found is that maybe it's relate to the number of thread used and it's behaviour. Tweaking the number of thread used by reaper in setup ---> audio ---> buffering section to 1 stops the noise. Also change the behviour to "0 - relaxed" also affects noise.

[karbomusic]

Forgive my TLDR but does this happen with no tracks record armed? For example you open reaper, you don't add any tracks and you don't open a project, just a blank project with zero tracks. Does it do it then?

[ciros]

Originally Posted by karbomusic

Forgive my TLDR but does this happen with no tracks record armed? For example you open reaper, you don't add any tracks and you don't open a project, just a blank project with zero tracks. Does it do it then?

In my personal experience, opening reaper with a new/blank project (no tracks and 0% cpu use from daw performance meter and task manager) makes the the coil whine noise. The noise stops only if reaper is minimized or the reaper window looses the focus (ie opening windows start menu during reaper usage), but if reaper is in play mode the noise continue also if window is minimized.

[karbomusic]

Originally Posted by ciros

In my personal experience, opening reaper with a new/blank project makes the the coil whine noise. The noise stops only if reaper is minimized or the reaper window looses the focus

Is the option to release the audio driver when reaper doesn't have focus enabled in Reaper? If so, that would explain that piece.

[ciros]

Originally Posted by karbomusic

Is the option to release the audio driver when reaper doesn't have focus enabled in Reaper?

yes it is.

btw, i've noticed also that setting the audio device to a not working one (like wdm kernel streaming) stops the noise

[karbomusic]

Originally Posted by ciros

yes it is

OK, so that answers that. It's releasing the audio driver, and the whine subsides because of it. So we know 100% at this point that reaper's initialization of the audio driver via ASIO aggravates whatever the underlying issue is.

And since ASIO could be involved, just the sanity check this is the device drivers and ASIO, nothing like ASIO4ALL is the picture correct?

[ciros]

Originally Posted by karbomusic

OK, so that answers that. It's releasing the audio driver, and the whine subsides because of it. So we know 100% at this point that reaper's initialization of the audio driver via ASIO aggravates whatever the underlying issue is.

And since ASIO could be involved, just the sanity check this is the device drivers and ASIO, nothing like ASIO4ALL is the picture correct?

im appreciating ur interest instead the quick (and rational) "isn't a reaper issue but hw" reply..

The coil whine appears with every working audio device selected in reaper settings (dummy audio also). Only with not working ones (like wdm kernel streaming on my system) there is no noise. I don't have asio neither asio4all. so selecting ASIO from settings makes the coil whine disappear

[karbomusic]

Originally Posted by ciros

The coil whine appears with every working audio device selected in reaper settings (dummy audio also).

Well that changes things because dummy audio = no audio driver at all. It is still possible it's a hardware problem, but the definition of problem might be a tad up for grabs right now.

I'll keep my thinking hat on, I can think of methods to investigate but all of those are so deep and nasty, I hesitate to suggest them here, not to mention the low-level expertise needed to review the data. If I can think of something easier I'll chime back in - best idea is to find some way to create similar conditions outside of reaper but we don't truly know the conditions yet.

Justin??