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Old 09-02-2008, 04:32 PM   #1
357mag
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Default A problem we will all have to deal with...

I just had my computer rebuilt. Love it. Works great. And to try to plan for the future I got this idea. Since motherboards only last about 4 years before the caps start to show signs of failing, I thought it would be a good idea for me to buy another motherboard now, the exact same kind that I just put in, to have so 4 years from now when my board starts to fail, all I will have to do is put in the new one that I've had in storage and I will be able to continue to use all my hardware, Windows XP Pro, and all my software.

So I rolled my idea by my tech friend at the shop where I work, and he said the only downside to that way of thinking is that motherboards have capacitors in them, and these capacitors have a limited shelf life. What this means is even if I picked up a spare board now and just kept it in storage for the next 4 years, when the time comes for me to install it, some of the caps may already be starting to go. He said I may only be able to get 2 years out of that motherboard. Or I still may be able to get 4, it's kinda hard to tell.

Then he told me about the next operating system that Microsoft is working on. Windows 7. And what sucks is that 4 years from now, most motherboards that will be available to buy will not run XP anymore. So I will have no choice but to start using either Vista or Windows 7.

Which also means I will have to buy new versions of all my software. Doesn't all this suck? How these companies force us consumers to always be upgrading and upgrading even when we are perfectly happy with our current systems?

And it's a real problem for us all...
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Old 09-03-2008, 09:25 AM   #2
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This is the first I've ever heard of a cap with a shelf life. I wonder what type it is?
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Old 09-03-2008, 09:35 AM   #3
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Default not sure about that info...

4 year life? hmmm, that doesn't sound right. Maybe caps from the 1950's. That said, you could check out Gigabyte boards, they supposedly use solid caps http://www.gigabyte.com.tw/FileList/..._all_solid.htm

I figured what the hell and used a GA-EP35-D3SL for my latest computer. They claim 23 years....

As for Windows 7 - yeah. I'll believe it when I see it. Hopefully there will be opensource Linux that will run all your stuff by then and you can just ditch MS.

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Old 09-03-2008, 10:15 AM   #4
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Used along their specifications caps fail very rarely. If they are stored without even using them they fail even more rarely.
BUT: Nowadays for example electrolytic caps fail relatively often because of poor circuit design (e.g. caps mounted directly near heat sinks) and/or wrong use (because they are cheaper caps with low switching capability are often used in switching power supplies->guarantee to fail sooner or later). Also ceramic caps (used to block spikes) with a low electric strength are used because they are cheaper for the manufacturer.

I am consistantly surprised that such design flaws happen in modern professionally designed circuit boards.
Sometimes it seems they are designed to survive the warranty period by just some days.
On the other hand: As long as people buy 'cheap, cheap, cheap' instead of quality, things will not change and undersizing of components will continue.
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Old 09-03-2008, 05:52 PM   #5
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My previous motherboard was an Intel D865PERL. I had it put in when Doom 3 came out, which I believe was around 2004. Sure enough, my tech friend pointed out the caps in that board. You could see they were starting to look bloated, which means they are getting ready to burst. When that happens, the board has limited life left.
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Old 09-04-2008, 12:39 AM   #6
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Chances are Mag, that in four years time you will have forgotten your concerns about running XP on an old mobo and will want to upgraded to one of the new inexpensive eight core chips that will only run on a new mobo, by which time all of this technology will be available at half the price of a quad core now.

PS: MSI boards use solid caps for extended life
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Old 09-04-2008, 03:17 AM   #7
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Not really a problem since this has been going on with electronics since their invention. Anything bought today is obsolete before you leave the store or recieve it in the mail,
if it's on the consumer market that pretty much means obsolete.

Sorry if that sounds rather cynical.
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Old 09-04-2008, 06:47 AM   #8
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I used to think this way too. I remember purchasing 2 mobos and 2 Athlon Tbird 900s when they were all the rage, figuring I'd be one step ahead of the game when something went out on me.

Here we are N years later...that second Tbird never left the anti-static bag (it is still on my spare parts shelf) and the mobo got sold to a pal when I realized, after a couple years, that it wasn't going to get used. Both parts were a waste of money, especially the chip which has done nothing but sit on a shelf looking pretty.

When something dies in my computer, I don't want to rebuild that exact computer; that's my chance to upgrade. By the time newegg ships me whatever latest and greatest product I just ordered, there's always something better moving down the pipe anyway. If you're looking years into the future and planning on using equipment that is anywhere from very current to last year's model now, I think you will be disappointed when you get there; there will be much better available and for the same price (or even less) than what you paid for this year's model.
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Old 09-04-2008, 08:23 PM   #9
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Yeah you may be right. I guess what I'm really trying to do is postpone the inevitable. I worry about using a newer Microsoft operating system, that doesn't work as good as XP does for us recording people. But maybe 4 years from now Microsoft will have worked out some of the bugs and issues with Vista and Windows 7.

I guess sooner or later, everyone has to upgrade to a newer OS.

I mentioned motherboards with solid caps to my tech friend, and he still said that it doesn't really matter. You're still talking limited life, especially if the board is just going to be sitting on the floor for 4 years before it even gets installed. So I would just be kinda taking my chances as far as how much life I could get out of it.
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Old 09-04-2008, 08:44 PM   #10
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An anecdote to add:
About a year ago my power supply went boom. No drama, bought a new one, installed it, switched it on, boom. Turns out it was dodgy caps on the mobo. Bought another power supply and a new mobo.
Catch: also had to buy new ram and video card coz nothing was compatible.

Summary: after 2 new power supplies, new mobo, new ram and new video card, my computer is no faster than before.
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Old 09-08-2008, 05:06 AM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 357mag View Post
I mentioned motherboards with solid caps to my tech friend, and he still said that it doesn't really matter. You're still talking limited life, especially if the board is just going to be sitting on the floor for 4 years before it even gets installed. So I would just be kinda taking my chances as far as how much life I could get out of it.

Um, I dont think your friend is quite right.... There is a thing called hermeticty that life limits caps. But the main effect is heat, especially when you look at the aluminum/polymer solid caps. Geez, even the old wax coated caps in the tube amps last more than a few years.

Not trying to be a shrill for Gigabyte. But seems like he's a little too pessimistic. In mfg/production environmnent, we have freakin 486 computers that have been in service for 20+ years. Anecdotal evindce for sure, but that's kinda pusing it !!
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Old 09-08-2008, 07:28 AM   #12
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There is a TINY bit of truth to this, but only for certain caps - not all of them - and it has to do with cap suppliers trying to cut corners.

If you do a google search for "bad caps" or "capacitor plague" you will find the following:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capacitor_plague

And the following place will re-cap your board for a reasonable charge:

http://www.badcaps.net/

A small reprint from badcaps.net:

The reason this problem exists is because of a large-scale industrial espionage foul-up. Some companies decided to steal an electrolyte formula from another competitor. Little be known to them, the stolen formula was incomplete and flawed. They didn't discover this until it was too late and they had manufactured and distributed literally MILLIONS of these flawed capacitors. It was way too late for any kind of recall, and even today, these crappy components are being used in new boards. As I mentioned before, I believe this problem runs much deeper than simply an industrial espionage screw-up, as that incident was exposed years ago, and the problem still exists today. Nowadays, it just boils down to corporate bean counters cutting corners to save money by using shoddy components.

The cause...
This inferior and flawed electrolyte formula was used by a number of component manufacturers that sold to many different, reputable, and well known motherboard manufacturers. This problem isn't isolated to one particular brand of motherboard, and not even isolated to motherboards alone......



Also..... it's not just motherboards you need to worry about with this.... I just re-capped the power filtering sections on both of my M-Audio Delta 1010's which are known to suffer from cap failure. The wanted too much money and time to repair them out of warranty so I decided to just do it myself. Took me about 30 minutes per unit and cost about $15.00 total in parts. It's not that hard to do yourself on a 1 or 2 layer board, but motherboards can have a lot of layers that makes it a bit tricky and probably worth the expense of having a professional do it. It's definitely cheaper than replacing the whole board.....




hm
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Old 09-09-2008, 05:17 PM   #13
357mag
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Well I bought a Crown power amp for a band I was playing in many years ago. We used the amp about twice. The band broke up and my singer stored the amp in his garage for about 4 or 5 years. I got the amp back and it would not even power up. Dead.

When it was at Crown for repair, I spoke with a technician there. Even he said that it's healthier for equipment to always be on than just sitting while it's off. It's healthier for the caps.

So if your equipment is just sitting idle for a long period of time, there is a good chance damage will occur.
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