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Old 12-03-2016, 09:17 AM   #1
tack
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Default Strange doubling of MIDI events at top of FX chain when certain VSTs are added after

I've run into what I think is very strange behavior (Reaper 5.29/x64).

See post 6 for better details.

I have a track with a Kontakt instance at the top of the FX chain. I have this FX set to merge output with the MIDI bus instead of the default to replace.

Now I throw on ReaControlMIDI in front of that to log the events. Play a note, see a note. All is good.

Next, I toss on an instance of one of the Lexicon PCM Native reverbs at the end of the chain. Suddenly, ReaControlMIDI (which is the first FX) is showing all MIDI events are being duplicated. Kontakt's own MIDI logger confirms this.

If I tell Reaper to have Kontakt's MIDI output replace the MIDI bus rather than merge it, or disable MIDI output outright, then the MIDI event doubling ceases.

How is it that the Lex PCM instance at the bottom of the FX chain is affecting the MIDI that's going into the top of the chain?

Last edited by tack; 12-06-2016 at 12:43 PM.
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Old 12-03-2016, 09:20 AM   #2
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It might be that Lexicon's plugin receives the MIDI from the original (input) bus, which then dupes the events.
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Old 12-03-2016, 09:25 AM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EvilDragon View Post
It might be that Lexicon's plugin receives the MIDI from the original (input) bus, which then dupes the events.
But then shouldn't that only affect whatever follows the Lexicon?

Also note that disabling MIDI input/output on the Lexicon instance altogether doesn't affect this. So Reaper if isn't even sending events to the Lexicon, there would be nothing for it to double.

If this isn't a bug I'm missing something fundamental about how events are handled within an FX chain. Entirely possible, mind you.
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Old 12-05-2016, 01:46 PM   #4
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Quick bump to see if there are any other ideas, before I go quietly into the night.
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Old 12-06-2016, 03:04 AM   #5
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1 Does it happen only with that particular plug-in?
2 Does it happen only with that particular project?
3 Perhaps you could compress a simple problem project file (no audio samples needed) into a ZIP file and post it here as an attachment so that we can have a look at it and see what's (not) happening?

How to post attachments (in Post #1)
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Old 12-06-2016, 12:42 PM   #6
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Thanks DarkStar.

I actually managed to reproduce this phenomenon with purely Reaper plugins. I found that adding ReaFir at the end of the FX chain would cause this MIDI event doubling, even if MIDI input/output was completely disabled in ReaFir. In this sense it behaves just like all the Lexicon PCM verbs. Not all VSTs behave like this.

The project is attached. (It's tiny so I didn't bother compressing it.)

Steps to reproduce:
1. Create track armed for MIDI
2. Insert ReaControlMIDI, ReaSynth, and ReaFir in that order.
3. Configure ReaSynth to merge MIDI output on MIDI bus (right click "2 out" button in FX window, select "Merges with MIDI bus" under MIDI output)
4. Observe MIDI events in ReaControlMIDI logger are duplicated while ReaFir is not bypassed. Disabling MIDI input/output on ReaFir also has no effect.

Attached Files
File Type: rpp midi-event-dupe-bug.rpp (3.9 KB, 246 views)
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Old 12-06-2016, 02:33 PM   #7
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Weird - your track creates duplicates here too.

But ... I added a second track and the 3 FX and that did NOT show any duplicates, no matter what I tried.

Your test project should the devs enough to go on.
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Old 12-06-2016, 02:38 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DarkStar View Post
But ... I added a second track and the 3 FX and that did NOT show any duplicates, no matter what I tried.
The same 3 FX?

As far as I can tell, the VSTi doesn't matter, only that the VSTi is configured to merge MIDI output with the midi bus. The FX after it is hit and miss. Most of the Reaper VST FXs don't do this, but ReaFir is one that does, and it behaves like the Lexicon PCM verbs that way.

The most perplexing thing about this isn't that the FX at the end of the chain might be injecting duplicate MIDI events (although we know that's not what's happening because there's no change if I disable all MIDI output on the last FX), it's that the MIDI logger at the top of the FX chain would see them.
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Old 12-06-2016, 03:12 PM   #9
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Yep, the same 3 FX.

But when I Bypassed ReaSynth and added Dune CM, it was OK - no duplicates.

Then I removed both ReaSynth and Dune CM, and inserted ReaSynth back in. All OK - no duplicates
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Old 12-06-2016, 03:15 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DarkStar View Post
Yep, the same 3 FX.

But when I Bypassed ReaSynth and added Dune CM, it was OK - no duplicates.

Then I removed both ReaSynth and Dune CM, and inserted ReaSynth back in. All OK - no duplicates
When you added the VSTis back, did you take care to reconfigure them to merge the MIDI output with the MIDI bus? (Step 3 in my list above.) Because that's not default -- the default is to replace the MIDI bus and this is working.
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Old 12-07-2016, 07:57 AM   #11
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Oops, I had forgotten that. But at one stage I was getting duplicates even with the MIDI Output default (Replace) selected for ReaSynth.

In another MIDI Monitor I saw that the duplicates had exactly the same position as their originals.

I'm stumped,
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Old 01-01-2020, 10:08 AM   #12
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I was able to reproduce this issue on Reaper v6.02 and v5.99.

Looks like "Merge with MIDI bus" option does not work properly together with plugins that report PDC (plugin delay compensation).
It does not matter where in the chain the PDC-plugin is. It seems to always cause the double MIDI events.

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Old 01-01-2020, 10:11 AM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jnif View Post
Looks like "Merge with MIDI bus" option does not work properly together with plugins that report PDC (plugin delay compensation).
It does not matter where in the chain the PDC-plugin is. It seems to always cause the double MIDI events.
Ah! This is a great discovery. Indeed, PDC does seem to be the missing piece of information for this bug. Thanks jnif.
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