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Old 03-05-2020, 06:53 AM   #1
Sweetfoot
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Default Best mac purchase in 2020 for use with reaper?

I’m running reaper on a 2013 imac, and it’s ok, but it’s getting sluggish enough that it’s starting to be disruptive during sessions. What is my best option for an upgrade in the current landscape of macs? Should I put an SSD and more ram in my current machine and see if I can breathe more life into it? Should I get a used newer model? Is there anything in the most current generation of macs that is worth looking at?

Please do not recommend windows options, I used a beefy custom PC for 8 years as the main computer in my studio, and when I switched to this current base model iMac, I experienced 90% less headaches. My studio is my livelihood, so my highest priority is that my computer should never be an interruption while I’m in a session with a client, and I don’t feel that I can trust windows to provide that level of reliability.
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Old 03-05-2020, 08:33 AM   #2
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If you don't get an answer here, maybe try the Mac OS specific section of this forum:

https://forum.cockos.com/forumdisplay.php?f=34

Good Luck.
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Old 03-05-2020, 09:11 AM   #3
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My humble opinion is, if you haven't yet, get an SSD first. They're relatively inexpensive and make a huge difference in everyday use.

RAM would depend on how much you currently have and what your usage is. I use Windows, and I'd assume OSX is as good about RAM usage as Windows if not better, but I don't know for sure. But based on that assumption, I would consider 4GB the absolute minimum; 8GB for normal use with the possibility of the occasional constriction, and 16GB for "I can do pretty much anything I want".
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Old 03-05-2020, 09:38 AM   #4
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Get a new one, your old iMac has served you almost 7 years.
Cost you probably $1.20 per day if you look at it that way.

How about a MacBook Pro? The i9 with 1TB SSD and 32GB Ram is $3199.
You could use it with a USB-C dock to connect all your peripherals.

OR the 27“ iMac with 8-core i9, 32GB Ram and 512GB SSD (stay away from those Fusion Drives!)
would be $3399.

I went the Hackintosh route and build a beast for under $2000, but I understand if
the Hackintosh is not for everybody. It serves me very well and it‘s a production machine,
meaning I use it with paying clients.

Best,
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Old 03-05-2020, 09:45 AM   #5
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Kinda funny - my old 2011 Mac Mini server runs 99% as good as all but the fastest new ones, is a lot more flexible & better build quality & cost me £500. If your 2013 iMac doesn't have an i7 processor, you would do better with a 2011 or 2012 Mac Mini server. Dual hard drive slots, memory expandable to 15gb, solid aluminium case, too!
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Old 03-05-2020, 10:02 AM   #6
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Specifically which imac 2013 are you running? There are some very different CPU's in these models.

If you wanted to do an upgrade that would be on the inexpensive side and still official mac hardware, you could look into a dual x5680 or x5690 mac pro 5,1. Upgraded with an nvme hard drive on the pcie slot, you end up with a computer that is shockingly good for how old it is. I think you could do it all for under a thousand.

If you want to get something better than that, you would need to go for a newer imac, which could be pretty expensive. Just make sure you research the exact model you would be getting, find out the exact cpu and look at benchmarks for it compared to your current model.

But yea, honestly I would recommend the mac pro 5,1 still. Mine is very snappy.
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Old 03-05-2020, 10:03 AM   #7
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Quote:
Please do not recommend windows options, I used a beefy custom PC for 8 years as the main computer in my studio, and when I switched to this current base model iMac, I experienced 90% less headaches.
Exact same story for me in about 2012. I'm sticking with Mac.

I'm looking at a Mac Mini for my next, but kinda holding off as long as possible hoping they'll update processor options this year.
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Old 03-05-2020, 10:40 AM   #8
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Agreed on the mini, although I do a lot of video work so my next Mac will likely be the new Pro (which is also attractive due to user upgradability).

I would just point out that it's worth checking the online Apple Store's refurbished computers when you're ready to buy. I buy all my Apple products refurbished and have done so for the past 12 years or so with no disappointments. In many cases these refurbished machines were never used (e.g., a company ordered a few more Macs than they needed and returned them in unopened boxes). It's an easy way to save a few hundred bucks. The only downside is that you have to choose whatever configuration is available, but if you keep watching you might find just what you want (this strategy has worked well for me).

I bought a refurbished 2013 Mac Pro (trashcan model) last year and it's been great and will likely serve my needs for another 4-5 years. I do have an underpowered Mini for daily office-type use. I love the form factor and the new Mini is very capable for music work.
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Old 03-05-2020, 10:48 AM   #9
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Get a 2011 or 2012 i7 model and put a new SSD in it.
Probably run for another 10 years and be a faster machine than you would have settled for new (because of the price). The post-Jobs Macs are built to be disposable. Grifter stuff like soldering the SSD to the logic board. (I'm not making that up!)
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Old 03-05-2020, 12:24 PM   #10
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Quote:
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Get a 2011 or 2012 i7 model and put a new SSD in it.
Probably run for another 10 years and be a faster machine than you would have settled for new (because of the price). The post-Jobs Macs are built to be disposable. Grifter stuff like soldering the SSD to the logic board. (I'm not making that up!)
but you won't have any of the fast IO that the new ones have. Those old Mac Mini's can run hiDPI screens?

That would be a downgrade from my 2015 MacBook Pro.
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Old 03-05-2020, 02:28 PM   #11
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but you won't have any of the fast IO that the new ones have. Those old Mac Mini's can run hiDPI screens?

That would be a downgrade from my 2015 MacBook Pro.
What are you doing that requires thunderbolt 3 top speed?

If you DO need thunderbolt 2 or 3 or full pci for something needing impressive I/O, building Hackintosh would be the way to go. We're into HD video production now though. Thunderbolt 1 will cover anything you care to do with audio and then some. Do you have a thunderbolt audio interface currently?

The new Macs have nice screens (that are also fragile and expensive as all get out) and GPUs and TB3 but they went out of their way to insure no modding, maintenance, or repairs. Everything else is a downgrade vs the flagship Jobs Macs. So the best Mac for audio in 2020 is still a 2011 or 2012 Mac IMHO.
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Old 03-05-2020, 03:08 PM   #12
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most of my gear is connected through a thunderbolt 2 dock.

"the best Mac for audio in 2020 is still a 2011 or 2012 Mac IMHO"

I'd love to see proof of that.
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Old 03-06-2020, 06:02 AM   #13
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Quote:
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What are you doing that requires thunderbolt 3 top speed?

If you DO need thunderbolt 2 or 3 or full pci for something needing impressive I/O, building Hackintosh would be the way to go. We're into HD video production now though. Thunderbolt 1 will cover anything you care to do with audio and then some. Do you have a thunderbolt audio interface currently?

The new Macs have nice screens (that are also fragile and expensive as all get out) and GPUs and TB3 but they went out of their way to insure no modding, maintenance, or repairs. Everything else is a downgrade vs the flagship Jobs Macs. So the best Mac for audio in 2020 is still a 2011 or 2012 Mac IMHO.
I’m using an RME fireface ufx+, which has both USB3 and thunderbolt. I’m currently running it via USB, using 28 channels of i/o, which I may eventually expand with madi. I’ve heard that in practice it gets about the same latency through either connection. Should I worry about getting a model with thunderbolt?
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Old 03-06-2020, 10:07 AM   #14
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Don't worry about thunderbolt. Worst case you'll have to try a few USB-C to TB adapters, USB3 has almost the same performance, so why worry?

It's Apple's current line-up you should worry about...
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Old 03-06-2020, 08:11 PM   #15
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Did apple ever manage to fix the problem with the T2 security chip overloading the USB2 bus and causing audio dropouts?

If not, and you're using a USB2 interface then you will have problems. The solutions (assuming apple haven't managed to fix it, and I've seen no evidence that they have) are to use a USB3 interface, or to use a thunderbolt USB hub.


https://appleinsider.com/articles/19...20-connections

Quote:
Unchecking the time sync only reduces the dropouts. You need to also uncheck the location sync in the Time Zone tab, but even then you're only reducing the dropouts. Any time the T2 chip tries to sync, it will overload the USB2.0 bus, causing dropouts. There is no way any musician should go on stage with a 2018 [Mac] and a USB2.0 audio interface directly connected to it. The only solutions are 1) Get a Thunderbolt or USB3.0 audio interface, or 2) Use a Certified Thunderbolt 3 powered hub (not a bus-powered or cheap non-certified hub) - Cable Matters has a solution for $169 on Amazon, but most of those hubs are at least $200-300. Using a certified TB3 hub creates a separate external USB2.0 bus, in which you can run your USB2.0 audio interface. The cheap hubs do not work because they don't run on the TB3 bus, and therefore they don't create their own separate USB2.0 bus, which means you're going to get dropouts.

EDIT: Ah, should have read more carefully!

"I’m using an RME fireface ufx+, which has both USB3 and thunderbolt."

So, should be no problem.

Last edited by drumphil; 03-06-2020 at 08:20 PM.
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Old 03-08-2020, 03:08 AM   #16
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but you won't have any of the fast IO that the new ones have. Those old Mac Mini's can run hiDPI screens?

That would be a downgrade from my 2015 MacBook Pro.
Yes they can run Hi-DPI screens via thunderbolt or more mundane stuff via HDMI. I currently run 2 monitors on mine with no effort.
The Jobs-era ones are so robustly built, assuming you get the server model like I have. Solid machined aluminium billet case, two hard disk spaces that will run either HDD or SSD, easily upgrade-able to 16gb RAM, (no soldering required) and thus far mine will update to the very latest IOS. So really the major difference would seem to be that the newer ones are less configurable post purchase but do have lightning connectors. Which are apparently also compatible with thunderbolt. Horses for courses, till you look at the bang for the buck & relative reliability factors.
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Old 03-08-2020, 03:15 AM   #17
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most of my gear is connected through a thunderbolt 2 dock.

"the best Mac for audio in 2020 is still a 2011 or 2012 Mac IMHO"

I'd love to see proof of that.
Your quote is far too vague. I certainly wouldn`t say ANY Mac from that era was the best for audio, but it would be worth your while to explore the validity of what I said about my Mac Mini Server.

I "only " have the quad core i7 2.1, but there are still i7 2.6 machines out there that will keep up with pretty much anything newer short of the all singing, all dancing Mac Pros at their exorbitant prices.

But there again I am downsizing everything soon & the mac will be going, as will everything but my 15 year old PC case and its innards!
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Old 03-08-2020, 09:05 AM   #18
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Quote:
Your quote is far too vague.
it was Serr I was quoting. but thanks for replying

since I can't test it I can only go by the geekbench scores posted online.
2012 mac mini server with 2.6GHz i7 is 729

My 2015 MBP retina 2.2GHz i7 scores 795


"easily upgrade-able to 16gb RAM, (no soldering required) "

will need more than 16GB, and new Mac Minis do not need soldering either.
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Old 03-09-2020, 02:16 AM   #19
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Ah... I have never gotten close to memory shortage on either my i7 W10 box with 16gb or the Mac Mini with a lowly 8! Comes down to what you are using it for as usual. What is the limit for ram on the latest i7 Mac Minis?

re: the performance aspects, once again I am viewing this from a bang for the buck standpoint & it seems like an awful lot of money to pay for the slight performance increase quoted by you.
How much did you pay for your Mac, by the way? I am not doing this just to be bloody-minded, I am genuinely interested, as my daughter`s partner`s elderly Macbook Pro is on its last legs, so I am trying to help him to decide which mac to replace it with.

EDIT: Just to put this all in perspective, my Mini server from 2011 cost me £550 including a decent 1980x1200 monitor, a focusrite liquidmix32, three keyboards, a mouse, all the cabling/adapters, Office 2010 and Logic Pro!!
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Old 03-09-2020, 09:42 AM   #20
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I'm coming from bang for the buck perspective too.

The post-Jobs Macs aren't the same level of machines. Some of the higher spec ones might have a barely faster quad core i7 than my current 2011. The cheapest equivalent to what I have (that wouldn't be a processing downgrade) clocks in at $4200 new! It will have that modern 2nd "gamer" graphics package and a 4k screen. Since I'm focused more on audio, those features are a moot point. The downgrades really aren't good though. No more full compliment of ports. USB-C only. Ends up looking just like a dongled up Windows machine! Removed the magsafe charging port (one of their more innovative features) to reduce cost. Got to charge it through a USB port now. No optical drive bay anymore. The HD mat displays removed the screen shield (there was no choice). But there's no option at all for it anymore.
Then we get into the glaring intentional stuff aimed at making these disposable like soldering the SSD to the logic board!

OSX still works. You still have kind of the Mac experience. Big cracks in the surface though. All the cost reduction stuff is trashy. These all feel like downgrades if you were used to the Jobs-era machines and the direction Apple was going then.

An app the genuinely uses more that 16GB ram is still an outlier. There's 4k raw video editing with ram buffering. Samplers that load samples into ram for audio work. The SSD pretty much removes the bottleneck the ram buffering was working around. At any rate, if you're really doing something that uses more than 16GB ram (and it's all proper configurations and everything and nothing stupid going on)... you're shopping for a custom monster Hackintosh build for whatever it is you're up to!

If you're doing that... Perfect!
Otherwise don't spend a small fortune on a new machine right now. These are "in-between" times for computer tech. Scavenging on the used market right now is huge bang for the buck. Those Jobs-era Macs were an anomaly and ahead of their time excellent products. The flagship models are still more than relevant today.

Downgrading to Windows would seem absurd.
Buying new hardware that feels like a downgrade is even more absurd.
Linux seems like the path forward but... OSX is still doing the "just works" thing.

Maybe there's a similar comfort zone if you got comfortable with Windows and the DIY needed a while back? The 2011/2012 Macs are the comfort zone for Jobs-era Mac users that don't want to downgrade to the newer style machines.
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Old 03-09-2020, 11:52 AM   #21
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Looks like we've completely hijacked the thread now

its not about a single app that needs 16GB of RAM. it's multitasking. I'm running a reaper session while screen capturing in OBS and monitoring my stream in Firefox.

"What is the limit for ram on the latest i7 Mac Minis? "
64

"How much did you pay for your Mac, by the way?"
For my 2015 2.2GhZ Retina 15" bought in Nov 2017 it was $2079 (CAD) including 12% tax. That was for a refurb direct from apple.

I'm not really bothered by that price considering how many hours per day I use it. It's like $75/mo. I'm seeing local resale prices above $500. Don't want to wait too long to resell.

My other alternative is a completely separate windows system for capturing and streaming, that will still be like $800 min with a monitor and another capture card… the space for it, the hassle of transferring files back between windows and mac systems.
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Old 03-09-2020, 12:47 PM   #22
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I feel for you. E.S.
FWIW, I am sticking with my "old" windows i7 4770 based box, which has been running since windows 7 with very little problems and eats the Mac Mini alive when running Reaper, whci definitely seems to run better than on the Mac. Not sure why...

I am definitely of the "run it till you cant fix it any more" school, though & obviously not working at the sort of intensity that you are. BUT I still think the 2011/2012 Mac Mini Server versions take a lot of beating. Certainly my Mac running Logic Pro is blindingly fast & smooth.
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Old 03-18-2020, 01:48 PM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sweetfoot View Post
I’m running reaper on a 2013 imac, and it’s ok, but it’s getting sluggish enough that it’s starting to be disruptive during sessions. What is my best option for an upgrade in the current landscape of macs? Should I put an SSD and more ram in my current machine and see if I can breathe more life into it? Should I get a used newer model? Is there anything in the most current generation of macs that is worth looking at?

Please do not recommend windows options, I used a beefy custom PC for 8 years as the main computer in my studio, and when I switched to this current base model iMac, I experienced 90% less headaches. My studio is my livelihood, so my highest priority is that my computer should never be an interruption while I’m in a session with a client, and I don’t feel that I can trust windows to provide that level of reliability.
as a Mac user here,
I would really suggest u get a hackintosh...
I'm using Apple product for 5 years, and then i switched to hackintosh.
the main reason is..
mac's cpu doesn't wrk well on audio processing..
it got multiple-core for sure,
but look closely ,its solo core just too weak to handle heavy audio mixing project.
a powerful solo core cpu is the king for audio processing.
i'm using i9 9900KS on my hackintosh, happy wrking with all my heavy processing plugins like
Acustica Audio etc... no sweat.

check out this video, I hope it can help u out.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HFL3wOfPx9s
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