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03-15-2012, 06:25 AM
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#1
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Mar 2012
Posts: 13
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Reaper MIDI output to lighting control
Ok, so I've browsed and searched the forums for a while but as yet haven't managed to come up with anything like the answers I need, so I'll dive in with the question.
Reaper was recommended to me as a possible tool to be able to modify audio tracks with MIDI timecode signals to drive my theatre's lighting desk (an ETC Ion) by using the MIDI to trigger cues on that desk.
As a Reaper virgin I'd like to know if there are any tutorials out there that will show me the basics of doing this.
So - any thoughts guys n gals??
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03-15-2012, 09:00 AM
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#2
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Lincoln, UK
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ynot
Ok, so I've browsed and searched the forums for a while but as yet haven't managed to come up with anything like the answers I need, so I'll dive in with the question.
Reaper was recommended to me as a possible tool to be able to modify audio tracks with MIDI timecode signals to drive my theatre's lighting desk (an ETC Ion) by using the MIDI to trigger cues on that desk.
As a Reaper virgin I'd like to know if there are any tutorials out there that will show me the basics of doing this.
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As in your console has a MIDI input and if you send it MTC it can synch its internal sequencer to the timecode?
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03-15-2012, 09:34 AM
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#3
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Mar 2012
Posts: 13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by planetnine
As in your console has a MIDI input and if you send it MTC it can synch its internal sequencer to the timecode?
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Yep - that's about the size of it.
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03-16-2012, 01:32 AM
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#4
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Lincoln, UK
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There seems to be an option to send MIDI clock and SPP through the MIDI output (p382 in the v4.11 manual, thereabouts in the 4.15?). REAPER can slave to MTC or SMPTE, but not sure it can send it out (not looked at this for ages)
I'm posting this on my BB, not in front of my workstation, sorry.
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03-16-2012, 12:34 PM
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#5
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Nov 2008
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Can you read Lighting Plots...?
If so create one and you'll know if you need additional dimmers or an Eos Client.
Will you be using ETC Sensors or ETC Smart Switches....?
If you draw me up a plot I can make some suggestions.
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03-16-2012, 02:15 PM
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#6
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Mar 2012
Posts: 13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by XITE-1/4LIVE
Can you read Lighting Plots...?
If so create one and you'll know if you need additional dimmers or an Eos Client.
Will you be using ETC Sensors or ETC Smart Switches....?
If you draw me up a plot I can make some suggestions.
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Hmmm...
I think you may have misunderstood what I mean.
I want to use some form of Time Code or Show Control from within Reaper to trigger lighting cues on my ETC Ion desk. It has absolutely nothing to do with what dimmers I have, or need because the desk will just drive what the cues are telling it to drive.
In it's very basic form, I'd want, for example, cue 1 on the desk to be triggered at the start of the music track, so a MIDI GO signal needs to be derived within Reaper and read by the Ion. Then LX cue 2 will be fired by the next MIDI trigger point on Reaper and so on.
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03-16-2012, 05:29 PM
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#7
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Oct 2007
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I'm sure REAPER will happily fire MIDI notes and CC messages at your lighting desk, but I couldn't find anything in the manual about sending MTC.
I'll have a look at it after the weekend...
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03-17-2012, 03:34 AM
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#8
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-blänk-
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 11,359
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As far as I know Reaper can only output MIDI clock and Song Position Pointer. You can enable that in Preferences -> Audio -> MIDI Devices: Double- or right click on an output device to get to the "Configure" dialog.
MTC is as slave only I'm afraid (right click the play button in transport).
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03-17-2012, 09:21 AM
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#9
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 674
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gofer
As far as I know Reaper can only output MIDI clock and Song Position Pointer. You can enable that in Preferences -> Audio -> MIDI Devices: Double- or right click on an output device to get to the "Configure" dialog.
MTC is as slave only I'm afraid (right click the play button in transport).
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Hi..
Normaly u can take anything gofer says about Reaper to the bank...but i think he's in too deep with Reascript and such!! jus kiddin bro!!
to generate Timecode from Reaper go top menu Insert/Timecode generator...and then drag out the right end of the "item" to the length required. Been there forever.
The funny thing is , the only thing i cant do is synchronize Reaper to ext midi clock..but I think it may be due to somethin else in my midi system.
guido
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03-17-2012, 10:41 AM
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#10
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Mar 2012
Posts: 13
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Cheers.
Found that but still no wiser on how to create time code triggers that can be read by my LX desk...
Like I say - BIG newbie when it comes to this sort of thing so could do with any sort of tutorial or step-by-step guidance on how-to...
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03-17-2012, 11:59 AM
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#11
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-blänk-
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 11,359
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Cool, I didn't know it does MIDI timecode. I sure am not bank when it comes to syncing (in whatever way) .
Right click the Timecode Generator item and open "Source Properties" to set up what it sends.
Nice, thanks Guido (can't test whether it works, tough).
EDIT:
How is should work step by step assuming an empty project:
- Position the edit cursor at the start of project
- Insert menu: "SMPTE LTC/MTC Timecode Generator", a Track with an item called Timecode Generator is created. Grab the right edge of the item and drag it to cover the entire desired project range
- Right click the item: "Source Properties", set to MTC or whatever your device understands. I have no idea about the correct frame rate and the other stuff on that dialog, hopefully you or someone else knows more
- On the track header left click on the track's I/O button. In the I/O window click on the empty field under "MIDI Hardware Output" and select the MIDI port that is connected to your device. I assume for SMPTE or LTC you'll need an audio hardware output instead.
That should be all there is to it. But I couldn't test it. I wish you good luck
Last edited by gofer; 03-17-2012 at 01:09 PM.
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03-17-2012, 01:56 PM
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#12
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 674
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gofer
Cool,......(can't test whether it works, tough).)
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Hi,
Yes it works..used to use it to sync my d8b digital boards's automation when i was still mixing throught it.. Just make sure u lock the MTC item...so it doesnt get split or edited when ripple editing^^.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ynot
......
In it's very basic form, I'd want, for example, cue 1 on the desk to be triggered at the start of the music track, so a MIDI GO signal needs to be derived within Reaper and read by the Ion. Then LX cue 2 will be fired by the next MIDI trigger point on Reaper and so on.
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I think there is some confusion goin on^^...MTC is just a way of sending SMPTE over MIDI. Time of day stuff..precice to the subframe..i think. what u refer to as MIDI go commands i guess means midi start..but i doubt that is the type of midi command u need to trigger ur lighting console cue function. Look in ur consoles manual for the part that describes exactly what midi commands are recognized by the lighting console to trigger ur cues. It is very possible that u need to send MTC to the console from reaper..so they both know what time it is ..AND send the appropriate midi message from Reaper also to trigger ur cues.
I hope this helps^^
Guido
EDIT====
I took a look at the ion's manual and, wow..impressive. I now see that there is a command in the midi Show Control spec called Go..ha sorry..anywho I dont think you need that.
Just send MTC from Reaper and the rest is programmed in the ion. pg 281 of the manual. Although I wouldnt want to have to learn that device in a hurry tho^^ that shit is DEEP, but I think this will get ya goin.
Last edited by Guido; 03-17-2012 at 04:17 PM.
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03-17-2012, 05:16 PM
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#13
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Mar 2008
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From the thread title I thought it may have had something to do with DMX, but the issue here is only about sync, right?
(i.e. not about converting DMX <--> MIDI, OSC, etc.)
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03-17-2012, 05:54 PM
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#14
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Mar 2012
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Guido
I took a look at the ion's manual and, wow..impressive. I now see that there is a command in the midi Show Control spec called Go..ha sorry..anywho I dont think you need that.
Just send MTC from Reaper and the rest is programmed in the ion. pg 281 of the manual. Although I wouldnt want to have to learn that device in a hurry tho^^ that shit is DEEP, but I think this will get ya goin.
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Yeah, the Ion as a lighting control desk is indeed a cracking piece of hardware. We've had the desk around 9 months and I'm even now only scratching the surface!
I'm not convinced (yet) that MIDI Show Control is something that Reaper can derive and send out, so yes, I think that it's MTC that I need to look at. I need to figure out how (if possible) I can mark the audio track with specific trigger signal points that can be sent out within MTC perhaps and interpreted by the Ion as specific cue 'GO' commands - as I tried to describe in one of my earlier posts here. But I don't yet know if that's feasible.
I have a topic running over in the Ion support forum as well,
http://www.etcconnect.com/Community/...664.aspx#37664
which does have a couple of possible solutions.
I won't be at the theatre with both the Ion and the PC running Reaper til Monday at least though I do have an off-line editor here on my own PC to play with.
And @Banned - no it's not about converting anything from Reaper to DMX. The Ion does that, and all the relevant LX cues would be built on there - I just want to fire those cues at predetermined specific points on an audio track.
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03-18-2012, 04:48 AM
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#15
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Lincoln, UK
Posts: 7,942
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I knew I'd had a bank of hard disk multitrackers slaving off REAPER for a production meeting/brainstorm session, I used LTC for it (I think :/ ), but MTC should work just as well from that timecode track.
Irrelevant to you, but interesting:
We printed the LTC track and sliced it up so that a large (possibly 72-track) live session could be aligned with links, commentary and video. The client brought the sessions in and we knocked it together without having to import all the files to our data drives and set up and annotate (takes more than the 20 mins during coffee we set the hardware and two M7 consoles up in). One SMPTE track is a lot easier to slice than those audio tracks and HDD machines jump around a lot easier than 2" tape
Four hours or so later, funding and a provisional go-ahead was acheived before we wrapped it all up. We copied the data that night and did the job properly over the next few weeks.
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03-18-2012, 08:25 AM
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#16
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Mar 2012
Posts: 13
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AHA!
Wel, reading this topic and the one I started over in the Ion forum and I think it's finally starting to make sense to me!
I now understand a bit more about MTC and that it's just a clock ticking away in reaper sending tbasic timing to my Ion.
I've now got to look at setting the relative cue timings on the Ion to suit the track, which now seems quite straightforward.
One question for Reaper - assuming I have more than one track I want to use this way, I can't really have them all starting at time code 00:00, so is there a way I can change the start point on the MTC track to, say, 05:00 for track 2, 10:00 for track 3 etc?? Then I set the ion to start at those times to suit each track as I need them.
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03-18-2012, 01:21 PM
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#17
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Lincoln, UK
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Just for clarity, is REAPER sending the cues as MIDI notes or CC parameters, or are the cues programmed against timecode inthe Ion and REAPER just supplies timecode via MTC?
If the former, then cues could be entered in the MIDI Editor. If the latter, then you might want Markers to jump to (possible during playback) and the use of the "pause" key.
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03-18-2012, 02:07 PM
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#18
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 674
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ynot
AHA!
Wel, reading this topic and the one I started over in the Ion forum and I think it's finally starting to make sense to me!
I now understand a bit more about MTC and that it's just a clock ticking away in reaper sending tbasic timing to my Ion.
I've now got to look at setting the relative cue timings on the Ion to suit the track, which now seems quite straightforward.
One question for Reaper - assuming I have more than one track I want to use this way, I can't really have them all starting at time code 00:00, so is there a way I can change the start point on the MTC track to, say, 05:00 for track 2, 10:00 for track 3 etc?? Then I set the ion to start at those times to suit each track as I need them.
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Hi,
Ur getting warmer^^
MTC is hrs;min;secs;frames;subframes. In reaper project settings set the smpte{MTC} start time ..lets say 00;00;10;00. now right click in the transport and set it to view Measures/Time...If ur first piece of music starts right at say bar 2..move the cursor to bar 2 and look at what time u see.
Im assuming ur first cue in the IOn happens at the start of the first piece of music....enter the time in the ion that u see at bar 2 in Reaper..as per pg 281 in ion manual.
In Reaper start ur second piece of music after the first piece..say bar 180....put Reapers cursor on the start of the second piece of music... look in the transport see what time...and so on.
OK...now ur on ur own^^
Guido
PS In the Reaper User Guide..look at how to set snap settings..and how to do basic item movement and such..it simple really,,,gl!
Last edited by Guido; 03-18-2012 at 02:12 PM.
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03-18-2012, 02:16 PM
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#19
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Nov 2007
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Quote:
Originally Posted by planetnine
Just for clarity, is REAPER sending the cues as MIDI notes or CC parameters, or are the cues programmed against timecode inthe Ion and REAPER just supplies timecode via MTC?
If the former, then cues could be entered in the MIDI Editor. If the latter, then you might want Markers to jump to (possible during playback) and the use of the "pause" key.
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Hi,
Good call Planet nine..based on the op ..but if u look at his light boards maual it has like an EDL..where he can enter at what SMPTE time his cues are to fire..and that EDL can sync MTC...done deal^^
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03-18-2012, 03:19 PM
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#20
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Oct 2007
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Guido
Hi,
Good call Planet nine..based on the op ..but if u look at his light boards maual it has like an EDL..where he can enter at what SMPTE time his cues are to fire..and that EDL can sync MTC...done deal^^
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That's what I thought from his original post. He won't need to send "cues" other than manage the MTC from REAPER to keep it on track with the live show -using markers most likely and advancing and pausing as might be needed. He might need to check how quickly the Ion responds if he needs to advance to a cue in a hurry.
Of course we might be all wrong and the show is strictly sync to click and automatically follows a set timed sequence. Audio and lighting fully automated -click and sit back
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03-18-2012, 03:30 PM
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#21
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Oct 2007
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ynot
AHA!
One question for Reaper - assuming I have more than one track I want to use this way, I can't really have them all starting at time code 00:00, so is there a way I can change the start point on the MTC track to, say, 05:00 for track 2, 10:00 for track 3 etc?? Then I set the ion to start at those times to suit each track as I need them.
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You could leave big gaps between your songs and jump to them using markers or you could use a separate project and set the start time of each at a different, non-conflicting time-value in the project settings.
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03-18-2012, 03:41 PM
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#22
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Human being with feelings
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Guido
The funny thing is , the only thing i cant do is synchronize Reaper to ext midi clock..but I think it may be due to somethin else in my midi system.
guido
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You will have to clock your sending device and your soundcard together -MTC will set the position, but Wordclock is needed to determine the rate.
Without WC I think REAPER will drift and unsubtly correct. Only done this with LTC and clocked sources, I might be wrong...
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03-18-2012, 04:11 PM
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#23
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Mar 2012
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I am starting to get a handle on the principles guys - thanks to those posting here as well as over on the Ion forum.
I should be in front of both the desk and a PC loaded with reaper tomorrow so plan to have a play if the gear isn't in use for a rehearsal/setup for this week's show - I'll let you all know how that goes.
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03-19-2012, 01:15 AM
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#24
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Human being with feelings
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You may be pleased to know I've been discussing this with the author of the REAPER manual and he's considering adding this topic to it.
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03-19-2012, 02:25 AM
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#25
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Mar 2012
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Sounds good!
Thanks
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03-19-2012, 12:19 PM
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#26
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Human being with feelings
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You had any luck geting your lighting board to hear REAPER's MTC yet Ynot?
I've had my multitrack recorders happily chasing REAPER-generated SMPTE today, but I couldn't get them to respond to any REAPER MTC -I'm not sure REAPER is actually outputting any MIDI and I'm not sure why (I don't need to do this, but I hate it when I can't figure out why something doesn't work when it should).
Generating and Sending Timecode has also been added to the next release (v4.20) of the manual.
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03-19-2012, 12:43 PM
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#27
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Mar 2012
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No - we have a show in all week this week, and it's not the done thing to mess with the desk when someone else has programmed the lights! I had hoped to at least give it a go, but he's been busy all day today and will be tomorrow.
I'll hopefully get to play early next week.
Cheers
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03-19-2012, 06:00 PM
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#28
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Nov 2007
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Quote:
Originally Posted by planetnine
You had any luck geting your lighting board to hear REAPER's MTC yet Ynot?
I've had my multitrack recorders happily chasing REAPER-generated SMPTE today, but I couldn't get them to respond to any REAPER MTC -I'm not sure REAPER is actually outputting any MIDI and I'm not sure why (I don't need to do this, but I hate it when I can't figure out why something doesn't work when it should).
Generating and Sending Timecode has also been added to the next release (v4.20) of the manual.
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Hi,
U got me wonderin..so i just checked it out..sending MTC from Reaper to my board. Workin fine. It has a transport section w a SMPTE display and its matchin Reapers output shown in Reapers transport.
And thx Planetnine for bringing this up w Nicolas.^^
Guido
btw..when u right click on the timecode item...source properties..does the generator box say send MTC or LTC? Sorry if its a stupid question.
Last edited by Guido; 03-19-2012 at 06:06 PM.
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03-20-2012, 01:47 AM
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#29
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Lincoln, UK
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It says MTC, I have the MIDI output enabled for clock. The frame rates match, I'm getting nothing. Wondering what to prod next. I might even get my oscilloscope out and see what's coming out of the MIDI port.
Any ideas G?
EDIT: I sussed it, I'd got "MIDI Thru" selected on my Saffire audio/MIDI interface. I'd naively presumed it would thru anything going into the input and combine it with any simultaneous MIDI output. Duh!
All working nicely now: LTC and MTC. By printing LTC to track and then copying and slicing on different tracks with different outputs, I've had three 24-tracks all obediently slaving to different "time zones". Silly fun.
Wondering if the MTC can be "printed" in any way to sit on a MIDI track and fire repeat versions of Y-Not's EDL light cues by jumping around the Ion's timeline. Hope it isn't easy to confuse...
EDIT2: No need to! you can have multiple MTC generators in sequence on the same track, each with their own start time. He could save several repeated cues only once in the Ion's EDL if he wanted and jump around te timeline. Only immediate limiting issue is what does the Ion do in the half second or so it might take to go from one MTC time to another -hold sequence or blackout?!
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Last edited by planetnine; 03-20-2012 at 07:34 AM.
Reason: Eureka! hee hee..!
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03-20-2012, 09:02 AM
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#30
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Mar 2012
Posts: 13
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All looking good.
I'm looking forward to next week when I can have a play with the desk.
Also nice to know I've piqued other peoples' interest in the idea of using the Reaper output for MTC control etc.
Quick question - been searching around Reaper but haven't yet found an answer - is there any way of printing a list of the markers, and the times they're set at? Might be useful to help go through and set the event times on the Ion.
Cheers
Ynot
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03-20-2012, 11:49 AM
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#31
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Lincoln, UK
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ynot
All looking good.
I'm looking forward to next week when I can have a play with the desk.
Also nice to know I've piqued other peoples' interest in the idea of using the Reaper output for MTC control etc.
Quick question - been searching around Reaper but haven't yet found an answer - is there any way of printing a list of the markers, and the times they're set at? Might be useful to help go through and set the event times on the Ion.
Cheers
Ynot
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There is a marker utility in the SWS extensions (an add-on pack of Actions for REAPER), which will let you manipulate marker number order, save entire marker sets, etc. It also allows you to copy the marker list to clip board and to "export formatted marker list to clipboard" (whatever that means, I've not used it yet). This should allow you to get the whole list into other programs and print it out...
EDIT: Formatted marker list is the one you want.
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Last edited by planetnine; 03-20-2012 at 12:07 PM.
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03-20-2012, 02:27 PM
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#32
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Mar 2012
Posts: 13
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Cheers
Will try that later.
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03-21-2012, 07:36 AM
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#33
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Mar 2012
Posts: 13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by planetnine
There is a marker utility in the SWS extensions (an add-on pack of Actions for REAPER), which will let you manipulate marker number order, save entire marker sets, etc. It also allows you to copy the marker list to clip board and to "export formatted marker list to clipboard" (whatever that means, I've not used it yet). This should allow you to get the whole list into other programs and print it out...
EDIT: Formatted marker list is the one you want.
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Might be missing something here - I have installed the extensions pack, and can see the Marker List and Marker Utilities options but can't find anywhere to export the formatted marker list.....
Also if I copy the markers to clipboard then paste them into notepad the timings are somehow converted to decimal, rather than hh:mm:ss...
Last edited by Ynot; 03-21-2012 at 07:43 AM.
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03-21-2012, 08:14 PM
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#34
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 674
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ynot
Might be missing something here - I have installed the extensions pack, and can see the Marker List and Marker Utilities options but can't find anywhere to export the formatted marker list.....
Also if I copy the markers to clipboard then paste them into notepad the timings are somehow converted to decimal, rather than hh:mm:ss...
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Hi,
As in many things Reaper right click in the Marker list and a menu appears with the options u need. Right click everything^^
Guido
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03-22-2012, 01:42 AM
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#35
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Lincoln, UK
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There's an option to select the formatting type, and there's an option to export the formatted list to clipboard. This will let you set how you display the marker numbers, their time position and any description you added to the marker.
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03-22-2012, 01:58 AM
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#36
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Mar 2012
Posts: 13
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Excellent - thanks both.
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