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Old 04-07-2014, 12:38 AM   #1
Remco Z
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Default Sustain Midi Issue (cc64) driving me nuts . Help/explanation please...

Hihoo

I have a cc64 issue that drives me crazy , as I can't seem to find out the "why"of it .

A short setup description :
WinXP Pro SP3 , STAudio DSP2000 Audio/midi interface with 88-keys-Master Keyboard connected + Behringer UMA25S mini keyboard with its own USB-midi interface/port (used as transport control + occasional synth line), Steinberg Nuendo 3 & various VSTi's .
I know my rig is old , but working fine for my uses .

But I want to switch DAW , (I need some ..."freshness") and I demo-ed Studio One 2.62 , and demo-ing Reaper 4.61 now , which seem both to correspond to my needs/vibes .

But in those 2 DAW's , 3/4 of my vsti's don't react to Sustain pedal (cc64) .
Their internal Instruments work ok , but Kontakt , Sampletank , Truepianos , AAS stuff (except Tassman which works ok) + others don't .
Midi monitoring shows activity when the pedal is pressed/depressed , but the sustain isn't heard .
And even without cc64 pressed , some sounds sound "cut" when I release note (like decay/release inexistent).

In Nuendo 3 , all the vsti's react like they should to my sutain pedal .

(Strange thing , if I set input to "all midi inputs" and I trigger the notes (piano f.ex) on the behringer mini keyb. and press the sustain pedal on my main keyb connected to DSP2000 midi in , the sounds sustains normally .
(This also occurs in Nuendo 3 btw)
How could a sustain-pedal on one physical midiport affect the notes/sounds on another keyboard that's on a different physical port ?)


I can't imagine a driver issue ... if it was so , then Nuendo 3 would also reject/bug with the cc64 information/audition .
Can't imagine a pedal-polarity thing either . If so , all my un-pedaled notes should be sustained & shortened when I press pedal .

Now , my big hair-grabbing question :

Since Midi is a standard , and sustain cc64 is essential , ..... How come that some DAW's function normally , and some don't ?
I really don't get it .
What is different about Midi sustain-pedal implementation between Steinberg/Presonus/Cockos ?
Why does it occur with only certain vsti's , and not with others ?

Please , any hint that could help me understand this issue would be highly appreciated .

I'd really love to switch to Reaper for good , and this sustain-issue is the last thing keeping me from taking the leap . ( If I can't hear the sustainpedal while recording a piano-part ...^^)

Thanks

Remco Z

Last edited by Remco Z; 04-07-2014 at 01:15 AM.
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Old 04-07-2014, 01:13 AM   #2
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Is your sustain pedal sending continuous controller messages or just sustain on/off?

In other words, if it is a simple switch pedal it should send only 0 for off and any other value for on.

There are plenty of other pedals that send continuous controller messages to enable partial damping, etc. If you have one of those, maybe Nuendo etc are sensing it and Reaper is expecting only 0 or 1+?

Doing the sustain values from memory which is pretty rusty, so it may be something other than 1 or above for "on".
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Old 04-07-2014, 01:55 AM   #3
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Hey Ivansc

Thanks a lot for your suggestion ... it's the first one in weeks that seems to get somewhere

An interesting hint/path you're pointing out here ...
In Nuendo , controller lane for sustain seems to be 0-1 (on-off) .
A big red "block" that I can only re-draw/narrow/widen to Left & Right (sustain start-end) .
No way to draw up & down ... Block ON , or Block OFF + length of On/off .

While playing in Reaper & drawing sustain in midi editor , I noticed that I could draw up & down (like velocity) , thus looking like partial damping, and that the "picture" wasn't a "block" that stretched across the whole measure, but a thin line having the length of the note .

Not sure , but it looks like the exact opposite of your description :

Nuendo seeing and treating my sustain pedal correctly as 0-1 , and Reaper (and supposely Studio One also , but haven't opened it since a while) , both see by default my 0-1 pedal as a continuous one with intermediate positions . Thus not knowing/being able to interpret a simple On/off command .

If that's the case , how can I tell Reaper to consider by default sustain as 0-1 ?
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Old 04-07-2014, 02:00 AM   #4
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Let's do some diagnosis:

Can you post a screenshot of your Preferences / MIDI devices?

Please add ReaControlMIDI (right-click the TCP >> MIDI track controls >>...) to the track, RecArm it, select the main keyboard, open the ReaControlMIDI Log, and play a couple of notes and press the sustain pedal. Post the Log screenshot too.

In Kontakt and SampleTank, to what did you map the sustain pedal messages?

And exactly which plug-ins in Reaper does it work?
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Old 04-07-2014, 02:15 AM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DarkStar View Post
Let's do some diagnosis:

Can you post a screenshot of your Preferences / MIDI devices?

Please add ReaControlMIDI (right-click the TCP >> MIDI track controls >>...) to the track, RecArm it, select the main keyboard, open the ReaControlMIDI Log, and play a couple of notes and press the sustain pedal. Post the Log screenshot too.

In Kontakt and SampleTank, to what did you map the sustain pedal messages?

And exactly which plug-ins in Reaper does it work?

Yup Darkstar

Good diagnose/test suggestions . Didn't know 'bout the ReaControlMidi Log.
I'll try that as well as screenies/logs reports and re-post results & VSTi "working/not working"-list here .
(btw , reading thru the Sticky "working.not working vst's" thread right now )

About the Kontakt & Sampletank remap question , I don't recall ever making any changes to the vsti's themselves (Not even sure where to do that )

Cya later after testing .... and Thank you !
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Old 04-07-2014, 02:36 AM   #6
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I asked about those two plug-ins as they respond differently to CC#64 messages:

Kontakt - see 7.1.3 in the Reference Manual
Sampletank - does not respond unless the CC#64 is mapped to a control, User Manual 3.6.
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Old 04-07-2014, 04:48 AM   #7
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Dunno which codes to wrap around the list to make it "Spoiler-button-like", sorry in advance for the length of this post ...

I'll test the ReamoteMidi (with log-check) + eventual Sampletank/Kontakt 5 remappings a bit later today (I have to work a bit ^^)

Reminder :
Not working sustain in my case means :
vsti's triggered via Main keyboard (88-keys Technics PR-60 E-piano (with it's own incl.sus-pedal) and/or 61-keys Roland D-50 (with a Roland sus-pedal) connected to DSP24 midi-in port .

For all the same vsti's , when notes are triggered via Behringer UMA-25S (UMA25S midi in port USB) while sus-pedalling on the 2 DSP24 midi-in port keyboards , they are sustained correctly .


Here's already a detailed list of the sustain working/not working vsti's , all tested 1by1 without any tweaks , to be sure which ones work "out of the box" and which ones don't (default install's of Reaper & vsti's) :

VSTI's sustain not working in Reaper:
****************************
4Front:
-TruePianos
-Bass Module
-E-Piano Module
-Piano Module
-Rhodes Module

AAS:
-Lounge Lizard EP-3
-String Studio
-Ultra Analog 1
-Ultra Analog VA-2

GForce:
-M-Tron Pro

IK Multimedia:
-Sampletank 2.5

Korg:
-Legacy Cell
-MS-20
-Polysix

NI:
-B4 II
-Pro 53

Plugsound Pro:
-PS01-Keyboards
-PS02-Fretted
-PS03-Drums & Perc
-PS04-Hip Hop
-PS06-Global

Simple Media:
-Spook Keys
-Super Spook Keys
-The Sheperd

Waves:
-Element


VSTI's sustain working in Reaper:
*************************
AAS:
-Chromaphone
-Lounge Lizard EP-4
-Strum Acoustic GS-1
-Strum Electric GS-1
-Tassman 4

Korg:
-M1
-MonoPoly
-Wavestation

NI:
-FM7
-Vokator

Plugsound:
-Plugsound Free
-PS05-Synths

Waldorf:
-PPG Wave 2

XLNAudio:
-Addictive Keys


VSTI's sustain partially working in Reaper:
*********************************
NI Kontakt 5 :
1st chord/Note + sustain = OK , but as soon as
another chord/note is hit while keeping pedal pressed , the
first one's sustain is cut and only the new one sustains ...)

Notice that some instruments from same developper(NI,AAS,Korg,Plugsound) work ,while others don't
... interesting ...

NI,AAS,Korg are vital for me,and the Plugsound's nearly as much .
I don't mind dumping the others if no solution for them.

Last edited by Remco Z; 04-07-2014 at 05:01 AM.
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Old 04-07-2014, 06:16 AM   #8
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Reacontrolmidi test 1 (screenshots attached):

Midi input set to all devices
NI Kontakt 5 with a piano sound
hitting a chord * press & keep sustain * hitting low note * release sustain

Fig1:
Notes + sustain triggered from D-50/PR60 on DSP24 midi in port.

Fig2:
Notes triggered from UMA25S on UMA25S midi in port & sustain on D50/PR60 on DSP24 midi in port.

There are 2 cc123's (AllNotesOff) in Fig1 ... which aren't in Fig2 .
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Old 04-07-2014, 07:13 AM   #9
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Phew, that's a comprehensive plug-in list - did you check each one?

Anyway, the Logs show that the pedal is sending one message (on channel 01, value 127) when pressed and a second (value 0) when released. All looks Ok there.

Hold on, I didn't grasp this before:
Quote:
Not working sustain in my case means :
vsti's triggered via Main keyboard (88-keys Technics PR-60 E-piano (with it's own incl.sus-pedal) and/or 61-keys Roland D-50 (with a Roland sus-pedal) connected to DSP24 midi-in port .

For all the same vsti's , when notes are triggered via Behringer UMA-25S (UMA25S midi in port USB) while sus-pedalling on the 2 DSP24 midi-in port keyboards , they are sustained correctly .
Are you saying that the sustain pedal does causes a correct sustain for notes form a USB-connected keyboard but not for a MIDI-port_connected keyboard? If so, then are those "All Notes off" tripping things up? (They shouldn't but you never know.)

Next diagnosis: use insertpizhere's MIDI monitor on the track and enable "Time", click Play and play the keyboard to see WHEN the "All notes" off" occurs. Any idea why it is sent by the keyboard?

Also, Record some MIDI playing and sustaining into a MIDI clip and see if playing back those clips results in the correct sustain.
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Old 04-07-2014, 07:21 AM   #10
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According to the MIDI Spec:

Quote:
4.39 All Notes Off
Number: 123

Effects:
Turns off all notes that were turned on by received Note On messages, and which haven't yet been turned off by respective Note Off messages. This message is not supposed to turn off any notes that the musician is playing on the local keyboard.

So, if a device can't distinguish between notes played via its MIDI IN and notes played on the local keyboard, it should not implement All Notes Off. Furthermore, if a device is in Omni On state, it should ignore this message on any channel.

Note: If the device's Hold Pedal controller is on, the notes aren't actually released until the Hold Pedal is turned off. See All Sound Off controller message for turning off the sound of these notes immediately.
Perhaps those plug-ins are mistakenly treating "All Notes off" as "All sound off".

Quote:
4.36 All Sound Off
Number: 120
Effects:
Mutes all sounding notes that were turned on by received Note On messages, and which haven't yet been turned off by respective Note Off messages. This message is not supposed to mute any notes that the musician is playing on the local keyboard. So, if a device can't distinguish between notes played via its MIDI IN and notes played on the local keyboard, it should not implement All Sound Off.

Note: The difference between this message and All Notes Off is that this message immediately mutes all sound on the device regardless of whether the Hold Pedal is on, and mutes the sound quickly regardless of any lengthy VCA release times. It's often used by sequencers to quickly mute all sound when the musician presses "Stop" in the middle of a song.
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Old 04-07-2014, 09:03 AM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Remco Z View Post
Reacontrolmidi test 1 (screenshots attached):

Midi input set to all devices
NI Kontakt 5 with a piano sound
hitting a chord * press & keep sustain * hitting low note * release sustain

Fig1:
Notes + sustain triggered from D-50/PR60 on DSP24 midi in port.

Fig2:
Notes triggered from UMA25S on UMA25S midi in port & sustain on D50/PR60 on DSP24 midi in port.

There are 2 cc123's (AllNotesOff) in Fig1 ... which aren't in Fig2 .


Hi,

I did a quick read thru of the whole thread, and the thing that sticks out immediately to me is the use of "All midi inputs". I'm not say in this is the prob, but can u plz put the tracks input to the actual midi in used. To much room for variables IMHO.
Good luck.

Guido

PS if I remember correctly the d50 handles the sending of all notes off a lil differently....I haven't used my beloved d50 in years, but I seem to remember something about Cc 123 oddities. But that could be an early onset oldtimers.^^
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Old 04-07-2014, 10:18 AM   #12
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@Darkstar :
Thank you so much for the time you spend , highly appreciated !

Quote:
Are you saying that the sustain pedal does causes a correct sustain for notes form a USB-connected keyboard but not for a MIDI-port_connected keyboard? If so, then are those "All Notes off" tripping things up? (They shouldn't but you never know.)
Yes . That's odd .
Quote:
Quoting myselfFor all the same vsti's , when notes are triggered via Behringer UMA-25S (UMA25S midi in port USB) while sus-pedalling on the 2 DSP24 midi-in port keyboards , they are sustained correctly .
Could be seen as a kinda workaround , but playing a piano-part on 25 keyboard is a challenge I'd rather avoid

Quote:
Next diagnosis: use insertpizhere's MIDI monitor on the track and enable "Time", click Play and play the keyboard to see WHEN the "All notes" off" occurs. Any idea why it is sent by the keyboard?
Have to grab that . JS plugin to be found on the stash ?
And no , no idea why these 123 's occur .

Quote:
Also, Record some MIDI playing and sustaining into a MIDI clip and see if playing back those clips results in the correct sustain.
Tried . Sustain is recorded in lane , but dark green events(unselected) and not played back @ 1st ...
But if I select these events in lane (light green) , then the sustain is played back & heard .
Also kinda workaround , but not monitoring sustain while recording and editing this afterwards is ... ouch! ... on a daily basis .

Interesting read on Midi reference . I'll look into that .


@ Guido :
Thanks for stopping by . Want a coffee ?

Quote:
but can u plz put the tracks input to the actual midi in used. To much room for variables IMHO.
Had tried that indeed : UMA25 disconnected , just DSP24 midi in , track input set accordingly to that single input/single channel.
Same result . Whether it's the D50 or the PR60 that's connected to it .

Well all that being said , whether it's the D50 , the DSP24 midi port , or the various plugins implementation ... that doesn't explain us why the various Steinberg versions/updates I've had over the years (Nuendo 2 to 4 + Cubase SX1 to 5 back then) , seem to "magically" solve the issue .

Well , have to work on a mix now , I'll check back tomorrow .

Thanks again for your help , guys ! Sup
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Old 04-07-2014, 02:56 PM   #13
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insertpizhere's MIDI monitor: http://www.thepiz.org/plugins/?p=midiMonitor

Grab his midipack too and make a donation, well worth it.

Can we see screenshots of the recorded MIDI clip? Or, better, attach the zipped-up project.
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Old 04-08-2014, 03:59 AM   #14
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Hey ,

Here are some Nuendo midi-settings screens in attached zip.
By default , in general prog-pref's , midifilter is set to filter cc123 .
Also included both screens of D50 + PR60 conn. to DSP24 midi In port with piz-midimonitor log (in Nuendo) ... No CC123 here .

This might be it , no ?
I'd like to test in Reaper with setting a permanent "only-CC123" midi-filter active .
Is this easily done ?


Just need to re-install Reaper again :
After inserting piz Midimonitor and testing with D50 (showing the same cc123's as reacontrlmidi) , I connected PR60 instead , and had a continuous income of midi data (some short text with "...entry...") hadn't time to read it because ... BSOD "Hardware failure , parity error...system halted".
1st one in years ...
Anyway , cold-boot again , but each launch of Reaper gives me that same BSOD . So I'm un & re-installing clean right now , and see if I can find how to set the midi filter to reject cc123 .

Back later
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File Type: zip N4 Midi settings jpg's.zip (699.3 KB, 245 views)
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Old 04-08-2014, 04:42 AM   #15
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I do not know what the filter does; can you describe its function?

In the N4 PR-60 con.to DSP24 Midi In.jpg screenshot, each sustain-pedal CC is duplicated. Odd?

If you want to filter the CC123 messages, try Insertpizhere's midipack - one of those plug-ins, as an Input FX should do it.

Continuous MID from the PR60 does not sound good. Can you Record it in Reaper, and attach the (Exported) MIDI clip or project?
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Old 04-08-2014, 06:46 AM   #16
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Hi,

Yes...more sugar...

Man this sounds like a midi feedback loop...I hope u get it sorted.
In ur earlier post u mentioned recording sus messages w reaper , but u were using takes...and those take play one at a time. I think u need the manual to understand reapers midi.

Plz try and bring the test rig to a minimum....1 controller,midi out only into midi interface, no other USB guys connected. And if anyone can suss this out its DS.

That's really all I got....sounds like a midi loop.

Guido

Edit...OK.. I feel guilty...will hook up the d50 today and press some cc64s

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Old 04-08-2014, 07:00 AM   #17
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Basically , It allows to filter out any of the incoming (128?) CC's .
Useful for removing ... cc123's ... *cough*
Or aftertouch data ... or Prog.Change (hit accidentally while enervated hammond-solo-ing ^^) ,
well anything pretty unused/useless that may "pollute" a midi track .
Since it's implemented in main program as default feature ... it just applies to any midi part/track/event , thus no need to insert a plugin on each track before the vsti .

Here's an old Cockos-topic i found about the subject (Thalamus 's post)
http://forum.cockos.com/archive/index.php/t-101311.html

*About PR60 if midi input is set to all/allchnls , it sends double hold-on/off on midich 1&2 . If input is set to only dsp24 ch 1 , single on single off .
Maybe a L hand/R hand right thing , sometimes found on those old clavinova-alikes with very basic midi-implementation... dunno .

*Bout the continuous data/BSOD ... Maybe due to hot-plugging while Reaper was open & ... track armed (I know .... not smart )
Didn't occur when I re-installed .
didn't try to hot-plug again to reproduce it .

I'll check piz's place again , but from a quick read , haven't really seen a midifilter in his plug's .
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Old 04-08-2014, 07:14 AM   #18
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Quote:
Hi,
Yes...more sugar...
Hey , ... Sure

Quote:
In ur earlier post u mentioned recording sus messages w reaper , but u were using takes...and those take play one at a time. I think u need the manual to understand reapers midi.
Yep , seen that works in a different logic .
But I recorded a single,not looped & punched-in/out take , with notes + sus events both there ... Not like the sus was recorded on a 2nd take take lying underneath the 1st .

Quote:
Plz try and bring the test rig to a minimum....1 controller,midi out only into midi interface, no other USB guys connected. And if anyone can suss this out its DS.
Ye , 1 midi input , though the 2 keyboards connected to it (in alternance) need both to function normally with sustain . But the USB minikey is out of the picture . that one works ok anyway .

Yup , it's good to have DS around
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Old 04-08-2014, 07:33 AM   #19
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Hey guys,

Just Google all notes off and d50...seems u are not alone! Did a quick read on some results.....I am seeing your issue with plugs and cc123. The fix seems to be filtering cc123, but one guy filtered cc20? That was at gear slutz.

Will hook up the d50 ...I don't have the same plugs tho....


But the thought of a cappuccino just north of lake garda sounds fantastic!

Edit. Could the spurious data comming from the technics be active sensesing? Midi manufactures seemed a lot more scared of hung notes in a live scenario years ago.^^ hey u there? Yeah I'm here...hey u there? Yeah I'm here...^^

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Old 04-08-2014, 08:31 AM   #20
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YAYYY , Solved !!!

At least a workaround ...

http://www.niallmoody.com/ndcplugs/ndcmidi.htm

CCRangeFilter .
1st insert before any vsti . choose cc123 - Default setting 0L - 127R .
Damn cc123 is out of the picture & both keyboards work well with sustain !!!

Ok , still puzzled that it isn't implemented by default into any midi seq/DAW on the market . It's so ... basic .
It was already on Steinberg Pro24 (or 1st Cubase) on Atari begin 90's .
(Just looked into Studio One Midi pref's ... you can filter out Prog change , aftertouch , pitchbend & chase long notes . That's it )

Now I can start playing a bit more seriously with Reaper .

Darkstar especially , and Guido (have a coffee) , Guys , thank you very much for your time & efforts .
Though the issue was simple , without your suggestions , I might still be pulling my (last) hairs out ^^.
Highly appreciated !

I'll add myself also to feature-requests/complete midi filter .
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Old 04-08-2014, 08:45 AM   #21
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Good oh!

insertpizhere's midiNotchFilter would whack them too.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DarkStar View Post
...If so, then are those "All Notes off" tripping things up? (They shouldn't but you never know.)...
This does lead to the question - how are the plug-ins dealing with these messages?
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Old 04-08-2014, 09:18 AM   #22
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Plugins seem to play ok . Reacontrol after them shows what should pass thru .
CCrange
VelocityAmplifier (PR60 has a weak velocity and no adjustable velo-curve)

They weigh nothing in terms of cpu , and no issues so far ...
... except the normal crackles when I reach the 96-voices sustained multilayers piano samples limit

Can't find the 2 latter Piz plugs you mentioned . This pic shows his plugin-menus ... different name ?


EDIT : OK Seen it in midi collection . my bad .
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