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View Poll Results: Do you need Groove Templates?
Yes I need them 15 88.24%
Never needed them 2 11.76%
I don't know 0 0%
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Old 04-15-2018, 04:38 AM   #1
enroe
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Default [suggestion: MIDI] Groove Templates

[suggestion: MIDI] Groove Templates

After a look at Reaper and a first glance into
the manual one important missing feature
struck me:

Midi: Groove Templates

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Midi: Groove Templates
---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Besides the standard quantizations 8, 16, 12 and 24
it is necessary to have other, less regular Quantization
grids.

Imagine a drummer playing every "2" a tick later,
but the "2 and" and the "3" very slightly earlier. The
"4" is again a little later and the "1" is very exact on
the grid.

Can you define a grid that has such a character?
No you can't do that in Reaper, but in almost every
other DAW it is possible.

Basically every drummer has it's own individual
character - and thus every song get's an
individual character by it's non-regular micro-
timing. But we can't achieve this micro-timing
in Reaper.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Is there a workaround in Reaper?
---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Of course you can edit every single midi-item, but
that's not a smart solution. Such a procedure will be
very very tedious. How many years do you want to
work on one song?

---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Conclusion + Solution
---------------------------------------------------------------------------

"Groove-Templates" are the solution! "Groove-Templates"
are midi-items of 1 or 2 measures. They have only
a few midi-notes which define a custom-quantization-
grid.

These custom-quantization-grids can be selected
in the "Snap/Grid settings":



Or in case you want snap-settings only
to be your quantization:



(If I didn't oversee something or somebody has
a better suggestion ... )
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Last edited by enroe; 04-16-2018 at 09:57 PM. Reason: make images visible
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Old 04-15-2018, 04:55 AM   #2
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SWS extensions have the groove tool there, perhaps check it out.
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Old 04-15-2018, 05:45 AM   #3
enroe
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EvilDragon View Post
SWS extensions have the groove tool there, perhaps check it out.
I did a search in the SWS-manual for "groove". The
result was: "Nothing found" (SWS 171).

But the search over the forums has matches, and
it seems that the way for "custom grooves" is
a little "difficult", but after all it seems possible.

Thanks for your fast reply!
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Old 04-16-2018, 10:36 PM   #4
enroe
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Default Second look: Midi Groove Templates

Now let's look again at this issue:

The SWS-extensions are a great tool, but since
quite a time they are not developed any longer - and
so they don't keep pace with the current reaper
versions.

I am hestitant in installing the whole SWS-package only
for "groove templates".

Another solution would be writing a script. But this
is not an easy way at all costs.

Still I am convinced that my suggestion (see above)
would be a nice step in the evolution of Reaper - although -
sigh - I see: It has been debated to death in the past.

Any thoughts?
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Old 04-17-2018, 12:13 AM   #5
EvilDragon
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Quote:
Originally Posted by enroe View Post
Now let's look again at this issue:

The SWS-extensions are a great tool, but since
quite a time they are not developed any longer - and
so they don't keep pace with the current reaper
versions.
That is incorrect. Just install them.
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Old 04-17-2018, 05:26 AM   #6
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While I'd also like native groove quantisation, apart from what's in SWS there's also mpl's Quantize tool script which can work with grooves.

https://forum.cockos.com/showthread.php?t=165672
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Old 04-26-2018, 03:29 AM   #7
farjedi
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Yes there is SWS but it's clunky to me not being built into the midi editor or Grid Quantise button on the arrange page.

It was a really easy creative process to store midi grooves in Cubase all easily accessible from a drop down menu within the midi editor. You could also very easily extract them from recycle loops or splitting drum breaks, a easy way of trying different grooves of drummers and always gave an interesting result.

I have to say it's the only feature I really miss.
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Old 02-16-2020, 09:59 AM   #8
enroe
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--> Some additional
thoughts about "Groove Templates":

In capital DAWs like Logic, Cubase or Cakewalk,
"Groove Templates" are crucial if you want to generate
a good midi-groove.

Of course the most authentic way is to just do a
recording of a drummer, of an wurlitzer or of a piano player
directly. But if you wanna change or adapt something it
gets difficult!

The advantage of MIDI is just hat you use MIDI and
so you can move every single note. This "mobility" enables
the composer to change whole regions, change the entire
composition or only change small pieces or change the groove
feeling. If you work in MIDI on grooves and microtiming then
"Groove Templates" are essential!

"Groove Templates" can make the hihat-line breathe,
it can make the snare be pushing or be laid back. It can make
a e-piano riff groovy and snappy.

Often "Groove Templates" are the difference between
a hard quantized boring square riff and a living agile
organic riff!


That is why I plead for implementing "Groove Templates"
in Reaper natively!
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Old 02-16-2020, 10:40 AM   #9
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I just heard a podcast feature a Canadian research project using AI that would allow you to "feed" it recordings of a particular drummer or beat style and then it would generate exactly the type of groove map you describe, for example if Motown drummers slightly drag the snare beat a hair, or krautrock "motorik" drummers are subtly accenting an 1/8th note pattern on the bass drum rather than playing with a constant velocity.

Similar projects are trying to ape the interpretation styles of classical pianists into algorithms, but as you can imagine when you get into tones, chords, and non-fixed tempos, things get exponentially more complicated than just percussion timings.

From the examples they played, it sounds like such technologies are still somewhat in the future for practical use, but they're definitely coming.

As a drummer for over 30 years, I can definitely say that in human percussionists, these types of subtle shifts in timing are far more intuitive than they are carefully studied. I don't think for a minute that Bonham spent hours in his garage working out his particular behind-the-beat swing. Rather, it was just an extension of who he was and how he heard music, sort of like someone who has a strange cadence to the way they walk or speak.

It *can* be studied, for example if you're drumming in a cover band and want to ape a certain style, but it's very hard to change your natural feel.
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Old 02-16-2020, 12:40 PM   #10
enroe
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Quote:
Originally Posted by billybuck View Post
I just heard a podcast feature a Canadian research project using AI that would allow you to "feed" it recordings of a particular drummer or beat style and then it would generate exactly the type of groove map you describe, for example if Motown drummers slightly drag the snare beat a hair, or krautrock "motorik" drummers are subtly accenting an 1/8th note pattern on the bass drum rather than playing with a constant velocity.
Hello Billybuck, thank you for your thoughts about groove
maps!

You're absolutley right about the fact the entire subtlety
and all details of a groove will be inaccessible to a rational
analysis. And yes - also the known groove specialists do
not a ratianal analysis. No! They just perform the groove - on
a gut level.

Here however we consider just a little helper which can enable
every composer to coarse-sketch basic groove lines. The aim is
NOT to reproduce every subtle detail of a human drummer or
human percussionist. The aim to is to create basic grooves like
"motown" or "fast driving" or "sleepy and relaxing". The aim
is to print through the dynamic of the piano-overlead of "Janina
Berg" (famous pianist) - for instance.

-------------------------------------------------------------------

The practice in a studio might look like this:

The performer plays a solo over 12 bars. He repeats his
Solo-playing ten times. At the first step we choose the best
take from these ten pieces.

But the chosen best take still lacks "something". So at the
second step we apply different groove-templates and listen
to the result.

In most situations one of the Groove-Templates "does it" if
applied only to 60%.

-------------------------------------------------------------------

So Groove-Templates are just a helper, a tool, a tessera -
for achieving an aim. Thus Groove-Templates are important
for any midi-based song production when it comes to the
optimization of a performance or recording.
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Old 03-07-2020, 02:46 PM   #11
Greg Savage
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Would love this feature, as old as it is, its very useful
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