Old 01-28-2016, 11:27 AM   #281
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Perhaps you have to consider the 'purpose' of pop music since the 70's. Perhaps the purpose has changed - mutated into something else.
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Old 01-28-2016, 11:32 AM   #282
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Who's to say that pop and recorded music won't go the way of other once-popular pursuits like embroidery or rabbit hunting?
What would the populous listen to if that occurred because whatever that is then becomes pop. That's a sincere question btw because I think many of us as musicians don't truly understand what non-musicians care about or rather we place importance on things that are truly irrelevant to everyone else much of the time.

A small example... I saw a cover band in a club, they were magnificent and I loved the show as a musician. A non-musician friend of mine saw the band a couple weeks later and came back with this literal comment: "That band sucked!". Knowing how great they played I asked why they thought so to which they replied... "They sucked, they didn't play a single song I like".
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Old 01-28-2016, 11:35 AM   #283
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Perhaps you have to consider the 'purpose' of pop music since the 70's. Perhaps the purpose has changed - mutated into something else.
It's really simple, pop is popular because the general population likes it there is nothing more to it. We as musicians seem to have this misguided idea that people are spoon-fed and they'd all be listening to Jazz and Avante Garde without marketing and that is not the case as far as I'm concerned. We are musical geeks and pop is not for musical geeks in the way it is for the general public and the population who listens to pop is what affords us all to be here. And simple should not be regarded as sub-standard, I think that is mistake.
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Old 01-28-2016, 12:19 PM   #284
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The world changes - so too does the art that reflects it.
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Old 01-28-2016, 01:48 PM   #285
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...
Recorded music has been accessible for all of 100 years, and "pop" music for maybe 70.

...
the part with the recorded music is right, partly. but that pop-music is around for 70 years is false.

recorded or not recorded, pop-music was always around. the traditional way of "recording" music was the elder teaching the younger the songs. what songs? pop-music.

what is correct is, that the great diversity of pop-music came with the mass-media. and thats a hint, that pop-music will never decease or fade away. the more mass-media expanded the more pop-music was made. its human nature. simple as that. other leisure-time activities may come and go, but not music.

music is obviously inherent in the human gene. and therefor all music is pop-music, regardless that any elitists deny that. "art"-music is an extreme, pop is the "normal".
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Old 01-28-2016, 02:03 PM   #286
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What would the populous listen to if that occurred because whatever that is then becomes pop.
The popular model might evolve into something where the music is background or incidental, and possibly not even identifiable or necessarily repeatable - computer generated stuff, for example.
You might be able to pick a mood from a dropdown, including the type of mix.....which would of course be computed too, so no mixers or musicians required (at the front end anyway).

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That's a sincere question btw because I think many of us as musicians don't truly understand what non-musicians care about or rather we place importance on things that are truly irrelevant to everyone else much of the time.
otoh - the evolutionary aspects of music come from musicians and geeks, and much of it can be traced back to the not so distant past in experimental or "art" music.

For example - the current huge trend for "loops" was decades old by the time it hit the awareness in popular culture. afaik Steve Reich wasn't the very first, but he's probably the one who most people credit with bringing loops into the art-performance world. So whether current musicians/composers or listeners are aware of it or not, a lot of the territory has already been explored and gradually seeps into the pop culture.

Also, I'm not sure how pop listeners get to listen to stuff other than what's served up to them by musicians/producers?
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Old 01-28-2016, 02:18 PM   #287
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Also, I'm not sure how pop listeners get to listen to stuff other than what's served up to them by musicians/producers?
I hear them (simple memorable melodies aka hooks) when some birds sing. I don't think any human gets credit for our tendency to like melody per se no more than someone should get credit for inventing discovering the wheel.
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Old 01-28-2016, 02:32 PM   #288
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I hear them (simple memorable melodies aka hooks) when some birds sing. I don't think any human gets credit for our tendency to like melody per se no more than someone should get credit for inventing discovering the wheel.
Sure, everyone hears birds whistling. I often sing along with the washing machine, or the rhythms and noises of engineering machinery at work. I assume people will always do that, even in the event of anything describable as pop music vanishing from the face of the earth.

But we're talking about pop music here - the commodity that's promoted and sold in mass media - so I'm not sure what point you're making?
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Old 01-28-2016, 02:47 PM   #289
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Sorry I'm apparently late to this party, and sorry to actually post anything relating to the original topic, but... yes you can record music like the 70s in Reaper if you want to, and if you have people around with the necessary talent. Here are a few covers of 70s songs I have done with friends/bandmates for the hell of it. All done with Reaper.

Golden Years - David Bowie
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WC7APR-Gn3o

Time Waits for No One - Rolling Stones
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VH7XecrjO0M

Love Reign O'er Me - the Who
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bCHXw7nqw2s

Baby Loves to Rock - Cheap Trick
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rCCHrHewK1w

... there's more, but you get the idea. No apologies for any fun we may have been having.

Also, people can and should like whatever the hell music they want to like/listen to/create, whether it's new, old, "true" punk, or whatever BS labels other people want to put on it. If you love it, do it. So there.
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Old 01-28-2016, 02:50 PM   #290
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But we're talking about pop music here - the commodity that's promoted and sold in mass media - so I'm not sure what point you're making?
If you look up in the thread in general you'll notice inferences that look down on pop as if it is a waste of humanity's musical time with a bit of a no true Scotsman attitude. I mentioned that without it, much of what we enjoy today as musicians would not exist (pop paid for it) and just because it is popular, repeated and simple doesn't remove it's value - We as musicians think so in a bit of elitist way but are really just chopping our noses off to spite our faces.

We also tend to preach that the general population likes pop because they are spoon-fed, I think it is more natural, no spoon feeding needed...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7t-m4x92Nvg

Will ^they dance to Avant-garde? Might have to do a little test.
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Old 01-28-2016, 04:21 PM   #291
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I have loved some pop across the decades, but the majority of the stuff dominating the industry today is something else, from what is marketed as pop, to country, folk, rock, metal, hip hop, etc. There is a lack of diversity in character, a shallowness, over-produced sound, formulated songs, and a reflection of the corporate artificiality that has canvased modern society and is defining it in it's image. Pop has become very much like the corporate news of our consumer society, where artificial narratives saturate the media and define what is the correct way to think and feel. Both are sisters of the same corporate mother - profit, over humanity. The celebration of human character, thought, and expression in music has been replaced with a science of music as a product.

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The world changes - so too does the art that reflects it.
Yes it does.
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Old 01-29-2016, 09:49 AM   #292
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I have loved some pop across the decades, but the majority of the stuff dominating the industry today is something else, from what is marketed as pop, to country, folk, rock, metal, hip hop, etc. There is a lack of diversity in character, a shallowness, over-produced sound, formulated songs, and a reflection of the corporate artificiality that has canvased modern society and is defining it in it's image. Pop has become very much like the corporate news of our consumer society, where artificial narratives saturate the media and define what is the correct way to think and feel. Both are sisters of the same corporate mother - profit, over humanity. The celebration of human character, thought, and expression in music has been replaced with a science of music as a product.
http://thetalkhouse.com/music/talks/...e-hit-factory/
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Old 01-29-2016, 11:07 AM   #293
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I have loved some pop across the decades, but the majority of the stuff dominating the industry today is something else, from what is marketed as pop, to country, folk, rock, metal, hip hop, etc. There is a lack of diversity in character, a shallowness, over-produced sound, formulated songs, and a reflection of the corporate artificiality that has canvased modern society and is defining it in it's image. Pop has become very much like the corporate news of our consumer society, where artificial narratives saturate the media and define what is the correct way to think and feel. Both are sisters of the same corporate mother - profit, over humanity. The celebration of human character, thought, and expression in music has been replaced with a science of music as a product.
I'd suggest that the "better older pop music" was the anomaly.

Now that it's possible to hit the mark with a computer, you as a producer no longer have to put up with these damn musicians that are so interested in putting their "art" or "technique" into the mix. You can just program your simple pop songs without distraction.

I think the artful additions to older pop music were only important to a small niche audience of fellow musicians. They didn't detract from the simple hook or whatever in the pop song for the main audience. But they were only there as an artifact of having to use musicians to construct the music.

It's obvious from reading that bit that I'm in the niche audience for artful music for art's sake (whatever I think that is). I'm not even offering that as an insult to the masses although I'm sure it sounds exactly that way.

I think for pop entertainment that includes musical content, simply the fact that you can produce legitimate content without fussy annoying musicians is the complaint. To put it another way... Some of you didn't actually care for the older pop song all that much. You were actually attracted to the bits of artful indulgence one of the hired musicians snuck into the song.

That's a pretty black and white description but I think that's what the complaint is.

Now, if it is still true that a "better" pop song also includes elements of musicianship and thus includes that additional target audience attracted to such... well look at all the opportunity to shine these days right?
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Old 01-29-2016, 11:31 AM   #294
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I'd suggest that the "better older pop music" was the anomaly.
Percentage wise, likely so. The problem is there were so many not so good pop songs in previous decades that they don't survive making it appear as if they never existed. Only takes a moment of listening to "Billy don't be a hero" or "Disco Duck" to realize this. Look 'em up, I can find plenty more if needed.
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Old 01-29-2016, 11:50 AM   #295
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Compare one person sitting in isolation, trying to be a virtual Beethoven or Mozart - composing everything on their own, playing every instrument - virtual or otherwise, mixing and arranging, producing - doing everything. This is today's musician.

Now flash back to the 60's 70's before all of this happened, when musicians were vagabonds that traveled around, experienced life, got inspired, played an instrument, played that instrument with other like minded people who also played instruments - they collaborated, wrote and performed music went into a studio where there were people who did nothing but dealt with the recording and production processes - each and every person involved were where they were because they were talented at whatever it is that they were actually doing.

We had overdubs, re-tracking etc but it wasn't common practice to replace the sounds that humans made - we didn't replace a drummers drums with canned samples, we didn't retune vocals just because it was some kind of standard practice, we didn't choose a plastic alternative over the real thing.

This is why I work in the live music industry, because I like mixing, and I like music and the whole interactive experience. I've often heard people state that live music doesn't sound as good as recorded produced music - I understand what they are saying, I just think that they don't get it.

I work with bands all the time that play 'today's music' and I don't have any issue with it - it just appeals to me more when there are actual real musicians playing it for some reason. Maybe I'm crazy like that.
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Old 01-29-2016, 12:30 PM   #296
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Well said, Andy Hamm.
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Originally Posted by karbomusic View Post
Percentage wise, likely so. The problem is there were so many not so good pop songs in previous decades that they don't survive making it appear as if they never existed.

Only takes a moment of listening to "Billy don't be a hero" or "Disco Duck" to realize this. Look 'em up, I can find plenty more if needed.
One minute you're saying (repeatedly) that music shouldn't be grouped and denied; that looking down on pop music is elitist; that people who deny one kind of music are damaging their reputation as music lovers because there should be no boundaries.

Those are fine words.

If they're true.....then how does the "Billy Don't be a Hero" joke or the "Disco Duck" joke work?

If your "looking down on music is always bad" maxim is true, then why would you look down on Billy or Disco Duck?

Serious question.

It would appear that you do categorise and look down on certain music.

Chances are we all do that - but no-one else has written so much to the contrary.

If you can think of a good reason why the Billy and Disco Duck reference works as a joke or putdown - maybe there's a clue as to why others might join you and also form valid opinions of their own, rather than be "ruining their reputations as true music lovers"?

In other words, I said before I was suspicious of the claims you made in this regard - whether they're unconscious or not.

I'd be interested if you would use the Billy and Disco Duck reference to explain why you are entitled to choose songs to laugh at (or to label as "not-so-good songs") while at the same time repeatedly warning us against "being elitist, categorising, denying, belittling, looking down on" etc etc.

How exactly does your categorising work?

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Originally Posted by karbomusic View Post
.

Denying pop is as elitist as denying anything post '70s and to be blunt this entire thread is elitist from both the for and against '70s mindset.

IMHO the minute one starts denying any music by grouping it, they are damaging their reputation as a real music lover because there should be no boundaries.


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Surely, I wouldn't sit around quantifying that pattern then experiencing whatever dislike or disgust that goes with it - I feel that hinders my listening and biases it unecessarily. I'll listen to whomever as long as I enjoy what hits my ears sell out or otherwise (not that you wouldn't).

My musical ear is oblivious to such underlying themes and for me personally it would be a bit of a poisonous exercise both as a listener and a maker of music.

That doesn't mean that when it does happen my ears don't notice and stop listening though, it's just that I give the ear priority and don't let the underpinnings get in the way.


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I still have a hard time separating such things.

Meaning, even as a musician and the bias that comes with it, my brain really doesn't separate commercial vs groundbreaking vs Avant-garde vs 'real art' etc.

It's not that I don't occasionally dissect it but whether it's commercial or whathaveyou really doesn't get realized by the musical side of my brain which for the most part has little or no musical snob tendencies, I just hear music.

For example, if it were a simple sing along with a zillon units sold or some cool ass underground piece that only a few have heard, I value both the same if both resonate with me.


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Originally Posted by karbomusic View Post
If you look up in the thread in general you'll notice inferences that look down on pop as if it is a waste of humanity's musical time with a bit of a no true Scotsman attitude.

I mentioned that without it, much of what we enjoy today as musicians would not exist (pop paid for it) and just because it is popular, repeated and simple doesn't remove it's value -

We as musicians think so in a bit of elitist way but are really just chopping our noses off to spite our faces.

We also tend to preach that the general population likes pop because they are spoon-fed, I think it is more natural, no spoon feeding needed...


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Originally Posted by karbomusic View Post
It's really simple, pop is popular because the general population likes it there is nothing more to it.

And simple should not be regarded as sub-standard, I think that is mistake.

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Old 01-29-2016, 01:30 PM   #297
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One minute you're saying (repeatedly) that music shouldn't be grouped and denied; that looking down on pop music is elitist; that people who deny one kind of music are damaging their reputation as music lovers because there should be no boundaries.
Yea, as usual you don't get it... demonstrating that pop songs are no better/worse today than decades before hasn't a thing to do with being too elite or refined to enjoy pop nor is it grouping or denying genres or decades - if anything it is the opposite. I do enjoy your living every day with the apparent goal of trying to find and use contradictions that only exist in your mind because inferring them is far more important to you than understanding what is being said. Wouldn't it be better if you could come up with your own thoughts minus riding on everyone else's coattails or quoting links and books you've read? Can't you be a little more original than that?

I actually like everything Andy said, but since I'm not out to win some forum debate there is no side for me to actually live on which is probably going to confuse someone like you greatly. Nice try though.
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Old 01-29-2016, 01:46 PM   #298
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I do plenty of thinking for myself - that's what I'm doing right now.

I'm thinking about the claims you made about categorising, elitism, looking down on certain types of music....and I'm wondering how you can claim all that and then look down on certain songs and claim they are not-so-good.

(iirc last time you advised me not to post on forums but to go and make music instead (while posting away yourself).

You didn't answer me then, and you're not answering now, but instead stooping to personal attacks in an attempt to ignore a serious question.

The question again is :

why does your categorising get a free pass, while others' categorising is "elitist" and "damaging their reputation as music lovers" etc etc ?

_

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Yea, as usual you don't get it... demonstrating that pop songs are no better/worse today than decades before hasn't a thing to do with being too elite or refined to enjoy pop nor is it grouping or denying genres or decades - if anything it is the opposite. I do enjoy your living every day with the apparent goal of trying to find and use contradictions that only exist in your mind because inferring them is far more important to you than understanding what is being said. Wouldn't it be better if you could come up with your own thoughts minus riding on everyone else's coattails or quoting links and books you've read? Can't you be a little more original than that?

I actually like everything Andy said, but since I'm not out to win some forum debate there is no side for me to actually live on which is probably going to confuse someone like you greatly. Nice try though.

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Old 01-29-2016, 01:52 PM   #299
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Yea, as usual you don't get it...
yes. sigh. his goal is to find anything semantic so he can be right. sigh. kindergarten on his side. as I said, he derailed the whole thread because of some ego-issues. sigh.
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Old 01-29-2016, 01:53 PM   #300
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The question again is :

why does your categorising get a free pass, while others' categorising is "elitist" and "damaging their reputation as music lovers" etc etc ?
I can't answer to something you aren't getting and didn't occur outside your own mind sorry, it really is that simple. If you presented me with something that wasn't fabricated due to your misinterpretation I'd have answered but your current motives don't deserve an answer beyond what I already provided.

Go back and read what I said minus your tendency to search through threads trying to find quotes in order to attempt to turn peoples words on them and instead try to see what was actually being said vs what you are trying to turn it into. If you can't do that you get no answer because there is no answer to give. As long as those, what I call trollish motives exist, no reason to discuss with you at all really.
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Old 01-29-2016, 02:00 PM   #301
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I can't answer to something you aren't getting and didn't occur outside your mind sorry, it really is that simple. If you presented me with something that wasn't fabricated due to your misinterpretation I'd have answered but your current motives don't deserve an answer beyond what I already provided.

Go back and read what I said minus your tendency search through threads trying to find damming quotes trying to turn peoples words on themselves and instead try to see what was actually being said instead of what you are trying to turn it into. If you can't do that you get no answer because there is no answer to give.
Let's just say that it's some people's hobby to make claims about themselves, and one of my hobbies to examine those claims.

Which tendency or hobby is least worthwhile is for the individual to work out.
_

Again - how is it that you are able to be so open minded, lecture others on their faillings like elitism and snobbery......and then categorise certain songs as not-so-good?

You could at least give us the rulebook so we can look down on the things that are approved for looking-down-on.
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Old 01-29-2016, 02:19 PM   #302
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You could at least give us the rulebook so we can look down on the things approved for looking-down-on.
Like I said, you don't get it and that's not my problem..

You can't seem to understand 'not so good pop song out of all pop songs' and 'looking down on pop as a genre' aren't even remotely the same thing. That's where you missed the boat. I'll quote myself from your cherry-picked quotes to show it one last time and stop replying to you...

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Denying pop is as elitist as denying anything post '70s and to be blunt this entire thread is elitist from both the for and against '70s mindset
^Meaning genre; dis the genre become an elitist.

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Surely, I wouldn't sit around quantifying that pattern then experiencing whatever dislike or disgust that goes with it - I feel that hinders my listening and biases it unnecessarily. I'll listen to whomever as long as I enjoy what hits my ears
^Means I liked what I heard while not allowing which genre it is to influence that decision.


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If you look up in the thread in general you'll notice inferences that look down on pop as if it is a waste of humanity's musical time with a bit of a no true Scotsman attitude.
^Again, don't look down on a genre, that's elitist.

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It's really simple, pop is popular because the general population likes it there is nothing more to it.

And simple should not be regarded as sub-standard, I think that is mistake.
^Again, don't dis something due to it's genre..

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Percentage wise, likely so. The problem is there were so many not so good pop songs in previous decades that they don't survive making it appear as if they never existed
Hmm... ^strangely not the same thing... not talking about dissing a genre but speaking of songs within a genre that may not be as good as the others within that same genre and also a reply to a completely different point (not to mention it was in jest). Nowhere did I ever say anything in any way about every one must like every song, but you glossed over that because you don't care what I meant, only to argue and thusly, offer very little value. Fortunately, you don't get to decide what I meant and even if I typed it poorly (which I didn't), I still retain the rights to what I meant once I clear up the confusion which I just did.

So are you going to offer up your own thoughts on the subject of pop songs being better then/now without piggybacking on or constantly twisting mine or not?
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Old 01-29-2016, 04:10 PM   #303
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"Piggybacking" lol

Is that what responding to someone's claims about himself is called now?
_

To put it simply - you are categorising what a good vs a "not-so-good" song is.

What you are now saying is effectively this :

It's snobbery and elitism to categorise whole groups of songs just because of genre.

Instead, listen to everything with no preconceptions ... then magically switch on your filters and categorise those songs into

the good ones and

the ones which can be looked down on.

_

What interests me is : how you imagine that you listen with no preconceptions.
I already pointed this out to you (and was called a "troll" )

It's not possible to listen without any preconceptions.
If you can, then you're uniquely able to sever new music from all emotional urges, all memories, all similarities and references from every sound you ever heard.

And then switch that perfect detachment back off at will, and compile a judgement (based hopefully on purely scientific laws) on whether "Billy Don't Be A Hero" might be a good or "not-so-good" song.

_

Is it not more likely that you - like almost everyone else on the planet - do have preconceptions, emotions you can't switch off, things you like and don't like, judgements which are constantly running in the background.

It's normal, and not something to be ashamed of.
You built up your preferences with at least some good reasons after all, presumably.

Is it not also almost certain that you do gravitate to what you have come to like - that you don't listen to the millions upon millions of possible choices purely arbitrarily? That you do categorise. That you can't explain without difficulty how you categorise?

That you'd rather claim to be completely unbiased than to examine why you tend to like what you like.
_

When the first few verses and choruses of Paper Lace's new song are playing.....are you honestly fixed in a Zen-like attitude, waiting until the very last chord finishes before daring to snap out and form an opinion?

What can possibly be going through your mind all the while, if you're not linking emotionally, or unconsciously comparing the instruments and melody and chord sequences with emotions and feelings and faint echoes of stuff you heard before (and liked or disliked).

And how then is your opinion formed?

Is it only then that you switch back on your filters, emotions, memories....and remember and engage what basis you have for descriminating a good song from a bad one?
_

Most people can do this in real time.


What's more - most people would tend not to spend their time giving Black Lace, Renee and Renatto, Paper Lace, Father Abraham and the Smurfs, The Barron Knights etc etc the benefit of the doubt - based on their past performances.

And imo they have every good reason to be "elitist" and not listen dutifully to every last internet offering with the same expectations as the things they might reasonably reckon are "better" by their own experience.
_

Given that we can't hope to listen fairly to absolutely everything, it's reasonable and unavoidable to categorise, even just to whittle down the possibilities.

In doing so, most of us are prepared to risk missing out on something mind blowing from Justin Beiber or Robbie Williams or the Smurfs.
_

So we categorise and avoid it, and risk being labelled "elitists and snobs" by trusting our experience to maximise our pleasure.
_

And I'm certain that you do the same to some extent, whether you realise it or not, or would like to admit it.

And you categorise everything by your own benchmark, and avoid stuff, and look down on stuff, just like everyone else.
_

Just because you claim to respect all music equally doesn't mean you won't run it through your filters, and dismiss it as you please based on what you've worked out as "good" or "not-so-good".

Some people are undoubtedly less set in their ways than others.
However, that doesn't justify the delusion that they are completely without bias or prejudice.

But meanwhile you undoubtedly have to give a fair and equal listen to absolutely everything - which must be very time consuming and must take some kind of toll.

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Old 01-29-2016, 04:43 PM   #304
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Some of the above posts made me think of that John & Yoko Two Virgins album for some reason...

That was sort of mainstream right? Not with radio play obviously but everybody knew about it.

Is anything just messed up like that released nowadays by anyone "mainstream"? Seems like something like that could never happen again. I'd love to see Taylor Swift release something like that.
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Old 01-29-2016, 04:45 PM   #305
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Excellent article. If anyone of you has a stake in the discussion of 'music today', go read it.
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Old 01-30-2016, 03:02 AM   #306
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Evidence please?

Why aren't kids playing Chopin in kindergarten then?

To compare playing a musical instrument to modern athletics is a completely false equivalence. Athletes are getting better because of the advances in biology that inform training. This will plateau, and humans won't just miraculously keep getting better until the Olympics resembles a Marvel comic.

The only time you get apparent increases in musical skill is when a new style, technique or technology comes into play, but that is not the same thing at all as stating that humans are somehow born with more musical talent with each passing decade. It makes no sense, has no evidential basis, and is utter bullshit.
Kids aren't playing Chopin in kindergarten (excepting child podigies who perhaps maybe) for the same reason kids aren't running the sub ten second 100m: because they are kids. But I bet there are plenty of kids sitting in class rooms who will be playing Chopin in the future.

I made an assertion that the sum of human endevour has been towards progress and improvement and used the illustration of athleticism as analog. I didn't say that musicianship had improved in the exact same way so I dont need to provide evidence. However, if you wan't to make the positive assertion that musicianship has decresed then you will need to provide evidence.

I used a general analogy to attack the idea that the level of musicianship has descreased and in doing so stated my postion that it hasn't.

I'm not sure what your position is on this since your response didn't provide an indication either way.
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Old 01-30-2016, 05:49 AM   #307
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great read.

"musical Stockholm syndrome" struck me. that is what we all suffer from. ok, nearly all musicians.

why do we care about "hits" if we dont agree with the "industrial" method of making money from music? let the radio play meaningless and stupid and boring pop-songs. why do we care? because we suffer from the "musical Stockholm syndrome". we want to do it different, not the industrial way, but we love "the enemy"?

so, do what you like most and dont care about what you dont like. its your only chance.
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Old 01-30-2016, 07:17 AM   #308
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I used a general analogy to attack the idea that the level of musicianship has descreased and in doing so stated my postion that it hasn't.
It's not so much whether the level of musicianship has decreased.

It's more the importance in which the existing musicianship is held, and its significance going forward.

Back in the 1900s, a similar argument could be made over the role of the horse in society with the advent of the car. Horses weren't gettin any "worse"; horses didn't disappear, there's still millions of them.

But that only obscures the fact that the horse no longer plays a central role in our civilisation.

So to claim that horses are still as good; and that far from dying out they're still bred in huge numbers misses the point in the same way that counting numbers and quality of musicians misses it here.
_

Again, I use automation and a lot of my musical creations rely on the computer.
There's no doubt that this is the overwhelming trend, whether it's viewed as a good or a bad thing.

Arguably, the majority of people now imagine their song as a finished production on a wav file alongside photoshopped artwork....that's the product....to be optionally reproduced live (with all samples/effects etc) - rather than using recording as a secondary tool to capture what they already created and/or gigged.

Musical instruments are no longer required to manufacture hit records.
Neither is singing skill required.
There's been a massive paradigm shift towards automated recorded music and the realisation that musical performance can be completely fabricated ITB, along with its visual image, packaged for online consumption.

How many people getting into recording don't buy and use VSTis?
For many people, VSTis are the first port of call, maybe even the original attraction.
How many can actually play all of those real instruments emulated by the virtual instruments they use?
Not many I expect, myself included.

So it's all very well to say that more guitars than ever were sold recently.

What's playing on the film you watched, or the tv program, or the latest "hit"?
A real orchestra or harp or guitar or drum kit, or a VSTi?
Where's the money at?

If a car can do the work of many horses, and more cheaply and efficiently, then horses become surplus to requirements.
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I'm not even complaining, just pointing out the obvious.
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Old 01-30-2016, 08:24 AM   #309
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facepalm.

takes up the most space in the thread and has the least content.
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Old 01-31-2016, 09:11 AM   #310
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Originally Posted by LightOfDay View Post
great read.

"musical Stockholm syndrome" struck me. that is what we all suffer from. ok, nearly all musicians.

why do we care about "hits" if we dont agree with the "industrial" method of making money from music? let the radio play meaningless and stupid and boring pop-songs. why do we care? because we suffer from the "musical Stockholm syndrome". we want to do it different, not the industrial way, but we love "the enemy"?

so, do what you like most and dont care about what you dont like. its your only chance.
Agree, it was a good read.
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Old 01-31-2016, 10:43 AM   #311
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I'd say that everything's gone slowly downhill since 'I'm walking backwards for Christmas' by The Goons in 1956.
At last, the first relevant post in God knows how many pages of people blowing smoke up each other's arses instead of getting in their studios and making their own version of music. And before you respond, yes my posting here makes me as guilty as the rest! I shall have to go and construct another seriously mediocre recording to make atonement. Farewell, my public awaits.
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Old 01-31-2016, 10:51 AM   #312
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I just listened to the 24/96 HD master of the original stereo mix of The Doors - Waiting For The Sun and goddamn that mono drum track sounds good! Way too good for a 1 track recording of a drum submix! Bastards...
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