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Old 07-06-2010, 07:42 PM   #41
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Originally Posted by Lokasenna View Post
Since the Bible and Quran are sadly a bit lax on grammar commandments, whether God/Jehovah/Allah gives a crap about g/G is left up to interpretation.
Semitic languages don't have capital letters so the point is effectively moot in the context of those texts.
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Old 07-13-2010, 06:18 AM   #42
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Total atheist here. I used to be agnostic, but the more one reads about physics, biology, geology, paleontology, anthropology, astronomy, cosmology and pretty much all other sciences (some of which predicted and resulted in lasers, transistors, processors and all the other things contained in the box you're using to read this), the more one comes to accept that the Universe (har!) has been around for some 15 billion years and the the earth has been around for billions and that life has been around for countless millions (actually I think simple cells have been around for over a billion) and that man is a relatively new development which evolved from said life. To accept that an intelligence put us here a few thousand years ago (and all which that entails) reduces to lies pretty much every scientific discipline -disciplines which have given us the scientific principles we have discovered and proven time and time again.

Anyways, all that being said, I'm still guilty of saying "Thank God" or "Oh my God" of "God damn it!" Doesn't mean there's any doubt, it's just that "Heavens to Betsy" doesn't always have the same emotional Oomph, and "Fuck" doesn't always go over so well in certain company, but thank Fuck I can say it at least some of the time.

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Old 07-13-2010, 07:18 AM   #43
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or is there holy shit? if Jesus takes a shit is that shit holy? or maybe the pope can take holy shits.
Well let us hope that if the Pope does do Holy shits, he doesn't bless people with them
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Old 07-13-2010, 03:23 PM   #44
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Lot's of people have assumed I do not believe in god or God, but they have yet to explain what it is they think I do not believe in.
I had to laugh at this; it's pretty much how I see things too. On the odd occasion that I have ever been asked if I "believe" in God, I have simply responded, "define 'God'". I have yet to hear a definition of God that I could say I "believed" in.
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Old 07-13-2010, 10:30 PM   #45
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Why should we capitalize the word "god"? It's not a surname, even monotheistic religion have surname for their god, like "Yahweh" for most of the different flavor of Hebraic religion. I would think it would be grammatically incorrect to spell "god" with an uppercase "G" in the middle of a sentence.
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Old 07-15-2010, 07:56 AM   #46
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I had to laugh at this; it's pretty much how I see things too. On the odd occasion that I have ever been asked if I "believe" in God, I have simply responded, "define 'God'". I have yet to hear a definition of God that I could say I "believed" in.
So you want someone else to define "god" for you and then you can say i bealive in that one, or no I dont? So a god that does not suit you or makes you uncofortable is not a god? but everything that explains and compliments your actions and your way of life and if that god fits into your category then its a god? Just asking!!!
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Old 07-15-2010, 08:00 AM   #47
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Why should we capitalize the word "god"? It's not a surname, even monotheistic religion have surname for their god, like "Yahweh" for most of the different flavor of Hebraic religion. I would think it would be grammatically incorrect to spell "god" with an uppercase "G" in the middle of a sentence.
you are entirely right.
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Old 07-15-2010, 08:28 AM   #48
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So you want someone else to define "god" for you and then you can say i bealive in that one, or no I dont? So a god that does not suit you or makes you uncofortable is not a god? but everything that explains and compliments your actions and your way of life and if that god fits into your category then its a god? Just asking!!!
Considering that the definition and attributes of gods has changed drastically throughout the course of history, so much that today there are as many definition as there are people who believe in deity, asking for a definition before answering such a question make sense; in fact, it wouldn't make sense NOT to ask, not if you want your answer to be accurate at least.

I chose the simple route and just answer "no", but this route reflect laziness rather than accuracy.
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Old 07-15-2010, 08:58 AM   #49
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O M g
LOL!!
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Old 07-15-2010, 09:42 AM   #50
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We make god in our own image that's why he comes across as a psychopath in the old testament and someone with passive aggressive tenancies in the new also what kind of god would need his son to tell him to forgive them they know not what they do when surely he knows all! Lol anyway jokes aside...

All religions are just straw houses of contradictions, it's only people's fear of death/the unknown that keeps them maintained and therefore ignorant to the advances in science and philosophic reasoning that allow the rest of the world to enjoy the kind of independent reasoning that ironically, wants to get everyone in the world together rather than have the divide and conquer tactic the power players of this world use to stop us working things out. Put it this way.. if religion didn't work in their favour it would have been wiped out along time ago and i truly believe not one of the worlds "localised gods" would have done a thing about it.. after all.. where were the gods for the sumerians etc.. oh yeah i forgot.. they were all "false gods". how christians cant see the lesson behind that is beyond me. Rant over
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Old 07-15-2010, 12:18 PM   #51
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So you want someone else to define "god" for you and then you can say i bealive in that one, or no I dont? So a god that does not suit you or makes you uncofortable is not a god? but everything that explains and compliments your actions and your way of life and if that god fits into your category then its a god? Just asking!!!
Not at all - nor does Simple Simon ask you for anything more that clarification, it's a false call. We both made the observation that we have never had a satisfactory explanation from someone making a claim about god. The onus is still on them.

I don't want anyone to do anything.

I said "Lot's of people have assumed I do not believe in god or God, but they have yet to explain what it is they think I do not believe in".

I didn't start anything, to me there is nothing to discuss, only for those that assert something about me. So I ask the question - what are you talking about?

Lets say I happen to believe in something that defies description (not god but something else). I call it Itzosdilt.

I assume you don't believe in Itzosdilt.

It's really not giving you a fair chance if I don't tell what Itzosdilt is.

Won't you find it somewhat annoying if I am aloof, condescending and conceited about the fact that I know Itzosdilt and you are not able to understand, when I havent told what on earth I am talking about?
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Old 07-15-2010, 03:30 PM   #52
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Originally Posted by Tedwood View Post
I said "Lot's of people have assumed I do not believe in god or God, but they have yet to explain what it is they think I do not believe in".
Precisely. Thank you Ted.
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So you want someone else to define "god" for you and then you can say i bealive in that one, or no I dont? So a god that does not suit you or makes you uncofortable is not a god? but everything that explains and compliments your actions and your way of life and if that god fits into your category then its a god? Just asking!!!
It's a fair question since it clearly illustrates that you didn't understand my point, and that means I didn't explain my point clearly enough.

I ask others to define what this "God" is that they are asking about in order that I am better able to respond to their question. The kinds of responses I get tend to vary greatly, but the atheist response is generally along the lines of the stereotypical "old guy in the sky with a beard" kind of thing*, whereas the response from Christians tends to be more along the lines of the "as manifested in his only son, Jesus Christ" kind of Constantinoplian conception. Neither of these perceptions makes me "uncomfortable" at all; they simply don't accord with my own experience or understanding of Divinity(which, incidentally, I find impossible to adequately describe or define in words, as the very attempt to do so inherently results in limiting It's nature to my small, human, mental perceptions and the intrinsic constraints of thought and language).

Coincidentally, I was talking with an old friend of mine yesterday - a man who adopted Christianity around 30 years ago. He was speaking of the many doubts and questions that he has been experiencing lately and how they were threatening and undermining his faith. My response was to suggest to him that all those doubts and questions were threatening were his beliefs, and that it is important not to confuse beliefs with faith. Beliefs are of the mind; they are things held to, defined, discussed, debated and enshrined in dogma and doctrine. Faith is being willing to let go of the mind and thoughts and beliefs and, simply, unconditionally, trust. Confusing faith with belief, as I understand it, is somewhat analogous to confusing God with religion. I hope that helps to clarify.

Simon

*An apt illustration:
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...they are referring to that dude in the sky...

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Old 07-15-2010, 09:37 PM   #53
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Why should we capitalize the word "god"? It's not a surname, even monotheistic religion have surname for their god, like "Yahweh" for most of the different flavor of Hebraic religion. I would think it would be grammatically incorrect to spell "god" with an uppercase "G" in the middle of a sentence.
Well, "God" is a proper noun in the way that most Christians use it; they are referring to that dude in the sky, so there is nothing wrong with capitalizing it. From that point of view at least.
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Old 07-16-2010, 01:14 AM   #54
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*An apt illustration:
What exactly is that an illustration of?
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Old 07-16-2010, 03:19 AM   #55
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What exactly is that an illustration of?
Back-reference the asterisk.
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Old 07-16-2010, 11:40 AM   #56
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Of course I already did, but I was hoping you'd explain yourself a bit more. So I guess my reply illustrates that I am an atheist who conceives of god as an old man in the sky? If so, I think you have made a mistake in assuming that there is any good information to be gained about what my own conception of god what could be in my post; I was talking about Christian beliefs. A dude in the sky is a valid way of describing the "God" that most Christians believe in. He is the father, he has a son, he talks to people, he made man in his image. Of course it is more complex than that to many (or most, who knows) people, but the point of my post was just to point out why the capitalization has merit: because it is a proper name. It's a bit rude and arrogant to hi-jack my simple statement to support yourself without addressing me.

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Old 07-16-2010, 01:11 PM   #57
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It's a bit rude and arrogant to hi-jack my simple statement to support yourself without addressing me.
You're right, and I apologise. I was wrong in making such an assumption. I guess I have just been used to the "dude in the sky" conception of "God" being more of an of atheist one.
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Old 07-18-2010, 01:58 PM   #58
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You're right, and I apologise. I was wrong in making such an assumption. I guess I have just been used to the "dude in the sky" conception of "God" being more of an of atheist one.
No problemo.
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Old 07-19-2010, 03:06 AM   #59
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I think what is funny is that people are actually complaining about potential capitalization mistakes but they themselves aren't even capitalizing correctly nor does the one accused of mis-capitalizing capitalize even simple words such as "I" correctly. So what is the point of this whole thing?

If you are referring to the single god of various monotheistic religions then use "God". For everything else use "god". Also there is no Gods but gods. There is also a verb "god", e.g. some people god God way too much.

Anyway I think when you use the phrase "Thank God." you should capitalize because you surely must mean the or any for that matter specific single one otherwise it wouldn't make much sense like "Thank dog." - what dog? "Thank the dog." would make more sense.

Also let's not forget that the Church[1] capitalized mightily on God. Think about that. They've done well with that so maybe you should capitalize too?

References:
http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/god#Noun
http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/God#Proper_noun

[1] right I capitalize that because I mean the institution Church and not the building church
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Old 07-19-2010, 10:52 AM   #60
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Anyway I think when you use the phrase "Thank God." you should capitalize because you surely must mean the or any for that matter specific single one otherwise it wouldn't make much sense like "Thank dog." - what dog? "Thank the dog." would make more sense.
that's why i Started the Thank Fuck thread
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Old 07-20-2010, 07:09 AM   #61
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Why should we capitalize the word "god"? It's not a surname, even monotheistic religion have surname for their god, like "Yahweh" for most of the different flavor of Hebraic religion. I would think it would be grammatically incorrect to spell "god" with an uppercase "G" in the middle of a sentence.
I don't care about the fight that has built up in this thread, but the Brainy Smurf in me can't help but address this. The situation is that in relation to most Christianity, God has no name besides God. So "god", is any god. "God" is specifically the monotheistic Christian God in this context and that's his name... God. Proper noun. The religion didn't call the god named God Chester, so God it is. It is like the word daisy. Daisy may refer to a flower or a specific person named Daisy. Or, if you want to argue existence, Santa Claus is accepted as imaginary by most everyone over the age of 8, but we still capitalize his name as it is a proper noun. How's that for pedantic?
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Old 09-20-2010, 02:05 AM   #62
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Thank god for the life.
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Old 09-20-2010, 07:57 AM   #63
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Thank God my taste buds are on the top side of my digestive system.
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Old 09-20-2010, 12:43 PM   #64
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Reading through this thread that smacks full of arrogance, disrespect and self appointed authority worries me a great deal. I believe in God and that he sent Jesus his only son to die for our sins. If you don't believe that, please remain respectful. It is a common thread with people who don't believe, they are usually argumentative, and disrespectful. Any way you measure those two characteristics, they usually don't show up on the nice good side of the ledger. John 3:16 is all one needs to do.
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Old 09-20-2010, 01:44 PM   #65
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I don't care about the fight that has built up in this thread, but the Brainy Smurf in me can't help but address this. The situation is that in relation to most Christianity, God has no name besides God.
Well, isn't "Yahweh" the name of the god of Chistianity?
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Old 09-20-2010, 01:47 PM   #66
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It is a common thread with people who don't believe, they are usually argumentative, and disrespectful.Any way you measure those two characteristics, they usually don't show up on the nice good side of the ledger.
It is a common thread with people of religion that they are usually intolerant, insulting and smug. Any way you measure those three characteristics, they usually don't show up on this side of reality.
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Old 09-20-2010, 02:04 PM   #67
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Hey! Who the f*** just spit on me? :|
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Old 09-20-2010, 02:14 PM   #68
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Hey! Who the f*** just spit on me? :|
Joe Pesci?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gPOfurmrjxo
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Old 09-20-2010, 02:33 PM   #69
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Your religion relates to nothing more than your place of birth. You could of just have easily been born to one of the "false god" religions around the world that do not believe in the "one true god". Bit presumptuous to believe you were chosen from birth to be born to the "real" religion? This is LOGIC at it's finest

If you can not see the absolute logic in this then I have no further comment other than give it a few more generations and your religion will no longer fit in with the pyramid of needs etc and die out like the religions you stole all your stories from in the first place. Did you ever stop to read up on those ancient religions or I suppose god put them there to test you?

Rome never fell, it just found a better way to rule the people. Invisible man watches everything you do, much harder to get out of that one!

Religion may have actually done a lot of good for the human race as we were still developing socially just as the momentary system has for a global infrastructure. But both are now so inefficient and out of date that they will destroy us and we will either change or carry on this decadence to the messy end

amen.. (or should I say "amun".)
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Old 09-20-2010, 02:41 PM   #70
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Good one.
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Old 09-20-2010, 03:07 PM   #71
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...
It is a common thread with people who don't believe, they are usually argumentative, and disrespectful...
Which is why every totalitarian regime has tortured and executed its "enemies of the state." That is how all manners of "faith" are kept alive in many cultures. Visit North Korea. You'll see.

A good argument is defined by clear thinking and a willingness to disrespect what others claim yet cannot prove. When we lose faith in our own curiosity and settle for the prefabricated truths of others to ease our emotions then we also make room for abusers and heretics to step into the role that our mind is meant to fill.

History is our proof that far too many sheep have been willingly led to slaughter for what they have come to accept as "the truth."

[btw, Buddha would kick Jesus' ass. It's not even a fair fight. Look at the weight difference].

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Old 09-21-2010, 01:09 AM   #72
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It is a common thread with people of religion that they are usually intolerant, insulting and smug. Any way you measure those three characteristics, they usually don't show up on this side of reality.
Please find insulting or intolerant related sentences in this thread for me. Reaper's search engine isn't picking them up by the believers. You must have meant the non-believers.

One another note - I am still waiting on science to describe to me the beginning before the beginning. Should be any day now. Probably show as as a vst. Some kind of eternal plugin with no reference to time and space. Ouch, reminds me, how did space get here for it all to start before it started... Now we need a vst like pre-eternal. But then what about before that... I give up, I'll let a human write me a book about it.
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Old 09-21-2010, 03:31 AM   #73
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...it's Friday!!!
but it's not...... it's only Tuesday....
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Old 09-21-2010, 03:55 AM   #74
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So musicroom, imagine you were born before we found that the earth is not the centre of the universe and that the earth is not 4000 years old and dinosaurs were not put here to test us.

So your just going to assume that your particular religion (related solely to your place of birth) is correct rather than realise that science will one day most likely answer this question.

You haven't took on any of the previous points I made and instead have just replied with the standard rhetoric I recall myself doing when I was 18 and a Christian for two years whilst "looking for answers", it seems to me to come down to fear of ceasing to be which I can understand but the further you look into science (which is forever changing but still far more valid) the more things become interesting and it does not rule out other possibilities of life after death.

I for one cannot take comfort in a God made in man's image, I think things are far more interesting than that, they may not be smoke without fire but a religion that doesn't see the earth and sun as important (even though your Bible is full of covertly astronomical sentences) is ridiculous to me.

Why don't you really test your faith, I did, it really frees you and forces great responsibility upon your ego and brings this only life we get into perspective, it also made me see that morals were not an extension of a fear of being judged by an invisible psychopath.
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Old 09-21-2010, 04:05 AM   #75
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Also if the universe is proven to be infinite that means that our life's have happened and infinite amount of times before and also in infinitely different ways so at least reincarnation has some basis that's if entropy doesn't get in the way! Lol

I also like the concept of singularity and that we may be able to augment ourselves with technology which we can then use to improve said technology and ourselves in a feedback loop which very quickly becomes an almost simultaneous experience allowing us to advance very quickly to a higher state, perhaps even pure energy.

As far fetched as it seems it's far more likely to happen

Oh did I mention I have seen a ghost that also gave me predictions that came true so I'm not discounting an afterlife, just really don't see any earth religion as the answer or salvation.
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Old 09-21-2010, 05:48 AM   #76
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Also if the universe is proven to be infinite that means that our life's have happened and infinite amount of times before and also in infinitely different ways so at least reincarnation has some basis that's if entropy doesn't get in the way! Lol
An universe infinite in space implies that it is also infinite in time, and the conclusion one can derive from such an universe don't agree with observation; an example of that: a universe infinite in time means that all the light emitted from all the objects within it would have had time to reach us. We'd literally be bathed in light, night and day. But that isn't what we observe.

One funny side effect of an infinite universe thought, if we were to do away with the necessity to attach time to it via some yet unknown cosmic law, is that there would be an infinite amount of exact copy of our solar system and everything it contain, right down to the people in it including me writing this forum post. A physicist even calculated the maximum distance before we would be sure to find this exact copy.

A fascinating subject anyway, way more fascinating once it is freed of religion.
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Old 09-21-2010, 07:10 AM   #77
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Originally Posted by musicbynumbers View Post

So your just going to assume that your particular religion (related solely to your place of birth) is correct rather than realise that science will one day most likely answer this question.

...fear of being judged by an invisible psychopath.
So faith in science or man is what you are asking me to do versus God. I have felt and witnessed God's presence in my everyday life. To deny that because it is not cool to some, I can't and I won't. Your right and my right to believe what and how we want is a wonderful thing. Choice. I choose to believe and you choose not. It appears subtly, that you may be more evangelical than I about not believing. I find that interesting.

My beliefs are proven to me every time I walk out the door, or look to the sky. Do Christians have it all figured out - not by a long long long shot. There is so much we don't know. But to shrug what we know and see as chance and a big bang. Not good enough for me. Scientist will never be able to figure out a beginning that always was.

I do ask that why we talk back and forth, that you don't disrespect my God by calling him an "invisible psychopath". Disrespectful and you have to wonder, what drives such anger within to even form such a thought?
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Old 09-21-2010, 07:20 AM   #78
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Originally Posted by musicroom View Post
So faith in science or man is what you are asking me to do versus God. I have felt and witnessed God's presence in my everyday life. To deny that because it is not cool to some, I can't and I won't. Your right and my right to believe what and how we want is a wonderful thing. Choice. I choose to believe and you choose not. It appears subtly, that you may be more evangelical than I about not believing. I find that interesting.

My beliefs are proven to me every time I walk out the door, or look to the sky. Do Christians have it all figured out - not by a long long long shot. There is so much we don't know. But to shrug what we know and see as chance and a big bang. Not good enough for me. Scientist will never be able to figure out a beginning that always was.

I do ask that why we talk back and forth, that you don't disrespect my God by calling him an "invisible psychopath". Disrespectful and you have to wonder, what drives such anger within to even form such a thought?
Disrespect is still far greater consideration than the theists have given the non-theists in circumstances when they were in charge. Now that the mythically minded have started to be dethroned in certain arenas, be happy that disrespect and snark is the worst you have to contend with. There are those of us with long memories who would be more than happy to see the favor of stake-burnings returned upon the original perpetrators.
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Old 09-21-2010, 07:56 AM   #79
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Originally Posted by musicroom View Post
I do ask that why we talk back and forth, that you don't disrespect my God by calling him an "invisible psychopath". Disrespectful and you have to wonder, what drives such anger within to even form such a thought?
Can't speak for musicbynumbers, but I also consider the god character described in the bible as a psychopath. Not out of anger, anger against a fictional entity would be ridiculous, but simply going by the description and action of the character as written in that book as if it was any other book. For instance, there are many characters in Stephen King's books that I would describe as psychopaths, and I can make that assessment without getting angry, or believing the characters to be real.

If you decide to view this as disrespect to you personally, well, seems to me that this is your problem.

And yes, contrary to what you might assume, a lot of people who don't believe in deity have actually read and studied the bible, the whole thing and not just small passages that make us feel good, and that include me.
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Old 09-21-2010, 08:02 AM   #80
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Originally Posted by ngarjuna View Post
Disrespect is still far greater consideration than the theists have given the non-theists in circumstances when they were in charge. Now that the mythically minded have started to be dethroned in certain arenas, be happy that disrespect and snark is the worst you have to contend with. There are those of us with long memories who would be more than happy to see the favor of stake-burnings returned upon the original perpetrators.
The above statement will do as my remark too.

Your faith (as many others) has done a lot of damage in the past and I'm thankful that quite a few people have a choice now, It just saddens me that many do not and again are victims of were they were born. Science on the other hand deals in the evidence we have at the time so you could say that most faiths were once a scientific theory and although we have not completely disproved them (surely one of the reasons faith hangs on still) they definitely don't stand up to logic much.

I have seen people speak in tongues in church and a few other interesting things but most have been explained (satisfactory to me) as nothing more than an example of how powerful the mind can be in convincing us.

It's not to say I don't have faith, just my mind is not made up yet and I don't intend to narrow my view point to one religion in the hope that it's the key to our narrow minded view of salvation.

And yes, technically if you go by definition and use the old testament as evidence "he" (leave it to men to state that god is a he) is a psychopath by the way he behaves. Again, that's interpretation but as you say I'm glad I have the right to have one.


It's nothing personal and I can respect your right to believe what you want but if you don't like what I say, forgive me.
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