COCKOS
CONFEDERATED FORUMS
Cockos : REAPER : NINJAM : Forums
Forum Home : Register : FAQ : Members List : Search :
Old 04-07-2009, 09:29 AM   #41
Lokasenna
Human being with feelings
 
Lokasenna's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Calgary, AB, Canada
Posts: 6,551
Default

__________________
I'm no longer using Reaper or working on scripts for it. Sorry. :(
Default 5.0 Nitpicky Edition / GUI library for Lua scripts / Theory Helper / Radial Menu / Donate
Lokasenna is offline  
Old 11-26-2009, 06:00 AM   #42
rocaro
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: vorm Rechner
Posts: 125
Default Europeans? Americans? - I only know HUMANS, trying to stay alive on this planet !

I don`t know, what you are talking about. But i`m shure some of you need more sunshine, social contacts, bunnies, butterflies, and music like this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u6HqD4uUaOQ
rocaro is offline  
Old 11-26-2009, 11:14 AM   #43
Jeffos
Mortal
 
Jeffos's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: France
Posts: 1,969
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lokasenna View Post
hummm.. doesn't the barman look like the real troll in this picture
Jeffos is offline  
Old 11-26-2009, 11:35 AM   #44
JizmBrayinMoron
Human being with feelings
 
JizmBrayinMoron's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 42
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by visitor View Post
Hi,
The North Korea is very beautiful country where peoples are very simple and hard worker and these country people can not compromise with any one and perform all activities well without feeling shame to any one.
Well said old chap. North Korea is indeed a fine example of the utopia we are all headed for!
__________________
"Dependence begets subservience and venality, suffocates the germ of virtue, and prepares fit tools for the designs of ambition."
Thomas Jefferson
JizmBrayinMoron is offline  
Old 11-27-2009, 11:26 PM   #45
JizmBrayinMoron
Human being with feelings
 
JizmBrayinMoron's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 42
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by rocaro View Post
I don`t know, what you are talking about. But i`m shure some of you need more sunshine, social contacts, bunnies, butterflies, and music like this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u6HqD4uUaOQ
You forgot the Kool-Aid
__________________
"Dependence begets subservience and venality, suffocates the germ of virtue, and prepares fit tools for the designs of ambition."
Thomas Jefferson
JizmBrayinMoron is offline  
Old 12-06-2009, 01:47 AM   #46
Attic
Human being with feelings
 
Attic's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: California
Posts: 67
Default Anti Americanism is the new Cool - Shut the hell up Pink boy

North korea is trying to blackmail money from the US .... to bad were broke.

If you don't like America stop using its products or stealing them as a lot of foreign business's have done.

Midi was designed by Nasa to dock space craft.

Anti Americanism .... Its the new cool. Its the new pink.
Shut the hell up Pink boy.

The Tehran Symphony Orchestra
"Those who listen to music will have molten lead poured into their ears in hell," said Ayatollah Ruhollah Khomeini.
http://www.spiegel.de/international/...417923,00.html

Its amazing how the rest of the world can be pissed at a Nation of immigrants ... since we all came from them.
__________________
North Bay Music Attic
D. Prouty
designworxs@gmail.com
Attic is offline  
Old 02-05-2010, 04:36 PM   #47
Direwolf
Human being with feelings
 
Direwolf's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Dixie
Posts: 29
Default

First off, America has never used nuclear weapons on anyone. The bombs dropped at Hiroshima and Nagasaki were "atomic" bombs. Big difference. Secondly, Noam Chomsky is an a**hole. Thirdly, if the rest of the world had the balls to police itself, America wouldn't have to do it for them.
__________________
Semper Fi,
Doc
Direwolf is offline  
Old 02-05-2010, 04:52 PM   #48
Kundalinguist
Human being with feelings
 
Kundalinguist's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Toronto, Canada
Posts: 4,630
Default

I hate sweater vests. I blame them on Republicans.
__________________
Success is just one more plugin away! And happiness is as close as your next upgrade. (On the interweb: www.rolandk.ca / www.auroraskypublishing.com)
Kundalinguist is offline  
Old 02-05-2010, 05:10 PM   #49
Iokanaan
Human being with feelings
 
Iokanaan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Nemours (Paris), France
Posts: 260
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Direwolf View Post
Thirdly, if the rest of the world had the balls to police itself, America wouldn't have to do it for them.
What an incredibly arrogant and ignorant way to see the world ! If America did not put the world in fire when taking hold on nations under the moral cover of "policing them" to see its people accept and applause what is a constant imperial policy, the world would be a much better and safer place to live in. This is the truth. Wake-up guys ! The world is not as it is told to you in your propaganda and nationalist movies. Didn't you understand it with the ADM of Hussein which never existed - contrary to his oil which clearly does ! At the scale of nations, this is a hold-up made by the mafia, nothing more - but at the scale of nations, the innocent that are sacrified for that are millions ?

Open our eyes. Or one day you may have the very bad surprise to discover that you were the bad guys in the story, supporting the wrong side of the moral opposition. Everything is to be paid once. There will be a bill one day, for all this suffering. A bill that you are actually starting to pay with your crisis. Ask yourself the questions before it"s too late and before your nation drowns yourself into its decay. And instead of spitting on the anti-american feeling growing around the world with arrogance and pride (a feeling that I do not support but which is not raising from the void), you should ask yourself the reasons of its existence and what does feed it. When the entire world claims to you that you are wrong, there may be some more intelligent things to reply than "fuck you assholes".

Last edited by Iokanaan; 02-05-2010 at 05:54 PM.
Iokanaan is offline  
Old 02-05-2010, 06:20 PM   #50
Lokasenna
Human being with feelings
 
Lokasenna's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Calgary, AB, Canada
Posts: 6,551
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Direwolf View Post
First off, America has never used nuclear weapons on anyone. The bombs dropped at Hiroshima and Nagasaki were "atomic" bombs. Big difference. Secondly, Noam Chomsky is an a**hole. Thirdly, if the rest of the world had the balls to police itself, America wouldn't have to do it for them.
First off, atomic weapons are nuclear weapons. There is no difference unless you're thinking of thermonuclear weapons, which are no more different than a Blu-Ray disc and a DVD. Same concept, bigger bang.

Secondly, agreed, though at this point I don't entirely remember why I dislike him.

Thirdly, when is America going to start this policing? I currently see two wars in the Middle East that America started over American interests, and any number of conflicts that really DO need some outside help where the Americans are either nowhere to be seen or not doing any more than anyone else.
__________________
I'm no longer using Reaper or working on scripts for it. Sorry. :(
Default 5.0 Nitpicky Edition / GUI library for Lua scripts / Theory Helper / Radial Menu / Donate

Last edited by Lokasenna; 02-05-2010 at 06:27 PM.
Lokasenna is offline  
Old 02-05-2010, 06:42 PM   #51
Artbay
Human being with feelings
 
Artbay's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Fort Worth TX
Posts: 1,757
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Iokanaan View Post
Any look at a serious History book of the last 6 decades (a look at the website of someone like Noam chomsky woukld be a good start) would show you that the United states of America is the most dangerous, agressive, imperialist, intrusive, war making, plots organizing and terrible dictator supporting state of the whole world - and so, the very last one on this planet which should have the nuclear bomb. But it does not seem to disturb you, does it.
Any look at a Serious History book of the last 6 decades will also include the "dangerous, agressive, imperialist, intrusive, war making, plots organizing and terrible dictator supporting states" of Communist China and the Soviet Union, and should include some indication of the death toll each has inflicted. Anyone looking past your arbitrary 60-year deadline might begin to notice some bloodstains on the hands of, oh, how about Stalin & Lenin for starters? What's Islam's death toll up to this century? And are you racist enough to value the lives of Hiroshima residents more than those of Nanking? Or the residents of Dresden over the "guests" of Auschwitz?

Yes please, let's look at history. All of it. For the perspective you are so desperately lacking. There may be some more intelligent things for you to reply than "amerikkka suxxors".

And the next time someone wrongs you in any way, from cutting in line at the store to murdering everyone you hold dear, please follow your own advice and ask yourself what you have done to deserve it - you may have the very bad surprise to discover that you were the bad guy in the story!

p.s. I have read both Noam Chomsky and Karl Marx. Though some of their premises *may* be valid, their conclusions are a festering sewer of pickled weasel vomit. Also, I am no fan of Rush Limbaugh or Fox News. I just happened to be educated before the mush-brained chomsky-bots ruined the American educational system.

p.p.s. re atomic, nuclear, same concept bigger bang: The bombs dropped on Hiroshima and Nagasaki were fission-based, forcing uranium and plutonium nuclei to break apart. The later hydrogen/thermonuclear weapons used a fission-based explosion to trigger the fusion of tritium nuclei, releasing much more energy. Google "Tsar Bomba" to find out who built detonated the largest nuclear explosion in history.
__________________
www.valtraxysblue.com - www.reverbnation.com/valtraxysblue
"sometimes i like to sit by the fire, read some sheet music, and listen to a book on tape." - steven wright
Artbay is offline  
Old 02-05-2010, 06:58 PM   #52
Iokanaan
Human being with feelings
 
Iokanaan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Nemours (Paris), France
Posts: 260
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Artbay View Post
Anyone looking past your arbitrary 60-year deadline might begin to notice some bloodstains on the hands of, oh, how about Stalin & Lenin for starters? What's Islam's death toll up to this century? And are you racist enough to value the lives of Hiroshima residents more than those of Nanking? Or the residents of Dresden over the "guests" of Auschwitz?
We are in 2010. Hope you agree with that. the last past 6 decades start, therefore, in the 50's. Staline died in 1953. Lenine in 1924. Auschwitz is an episode from the second World World, so did the Dresden residents (1939 - 1945).

Maybe before giving to me lessons of History, and even before opening a History book, you should start by opening a Math one.

Talking about communism, you should take interests into the take of power of Lenine which started what we wrongly call the "communist" era. He made a revolution, you know, in 1917. And a revolution costs money. An incredible amount of money. Guess where did this money come from... Ohh, let's see, where do those names come from : Wall Street, the Rockefeller. OMG. America isn't it (God bless, am I correct ?) ?

Talking about racism as you did, are you, personnally, racist enough to consider that the life of 3000 American people are more valuable than the one of the million or Irak citizens (including 500 000 children) that the economic embargo entailed in 10 years or the other million of people that your "war against terror" entailed ? I would be very glad to have your answer, because I find you guys making far far far far far far far far far far far far far far far far far far far far far far far far far far far far far far far far far far far far far far far far far far far far far far far far far far far far far far far far far far far far far far far far far far far far far far far far far far far far far far far far far far far far far far far far far far far far far less noise for them than for your own people.

And talking about what you call "islamic death" (OMG are we in "True Lies" ?), the count does not overwhelm the one of any, I repeat, ANY dictatorhsip (Pinochet, Hussein for example (which was a LAIC one, not a religious one)) of the tens that your regime did support or put into power through CIA work because they were serving the interests of America. A woman stoned in a stadium by talibans in a video, it's a tragedy and a sordid thing, but from a global point of view, it remains one person. not millions. Enough to make you scream with the scum of rage at the lips and at the one of your warrior priests, but not enough to support the comparison.

It's absolutely terrifying to realize how brainwashed - therefore, dangerous - you are !

Last edited by Iokanaan; 02-05-2010 at 07:26 PM.
Iokanaan is offline  
Old 02-05-2010, 07:26 PM   #53
Artbay
Human being with feelings
 
Artbay's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Fort Worth TX
Posts: 1,757
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Iokanaan View Post
We are in 2010. Hope you agree with that. the last past 6 decades start, therefore, in the 50's. Staline died in 1953. Lenine in 1924. Auschwitz is an episode from the second World World, so did the Dresden residents (1939 - 1945).

Maybe before giving to me lessons of History, and even before opening a History book, you should start by opening a Math one.
If you were capable of comprehending anything past your pathetic Chomskybot excuse for a brain, you would have noticed that I deliberately was trying to show you examples from outside your puny and arbitrary 60-year time frame, to give you some actual perspective on the larger scope of history. You are familiar with set theory, correct? "Inside" is the opposite of "outside", outside typically being the larger of the two. And since you are so obviously perspective-challenged, please go watch some Sesame Street reruns to learn what the concepts of "large" and "small" mean. "Large" is like the entire world, "small" is like your intellect, only larger.

Your whining is just as annoying and pointless as that of a gnat who, born in the morning, begins to freak out that it's beginning to get dark that evening, and blames those evil arrogant imperial houseflies for the darkness.

You're welcome to join us adults out here in the real world, who can recognize America's faults and keep them in perspective of everyone else's. Or you can stay in your comfy little Chomsky-hole and never think again. Your choice - I'm done swatting.
__________________
www.valtraxysblue.com - www.reverbnation.com/valtraxysblue
"sometimes i like to sit by the fire, read some sheet music, and listen to a book on tape." - steven wright
Artbay is offline  
Old 02-05-2010, 07:40 PM   #54
Iokanaan
Human being with feelings
 
Iokanaan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Nemours (Paris), France
Posts: 260
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Artbay View Post
You're welcome to join us adults out here in the real world, who can recognize America's faults and keep them in perspective of everyone else's.
. I didn't see you recognize any of them. Any. That's my problem, precisely !

And oh, funny to see someone giving lessons of reasons and adult argumentation while saying dull and childish immature things like "small is like your intellect, only larger". Hearing that, you can be sure that I don"t have the feeling to be in the children garden in any way. .

Delightful...

And, oh. Talking about children, you did not answer to my question concerning the ones of Irak - you know this barbaric place of the world where you armies have gone to learn civilization to those savage and terrorist people while torturing them physically and mentally into US administrated prisons under the direct command of your administration - yes, the one, which, Light of Reason in a world of darkness, did put the torture legalized. We can talk about it, we have secret prisons of yours in Europe, into which such things happen too.

you can hide behind your tricks and puns which allow you to play the most clever and avoid you from answering to real questions, I still see you.

Hide and seek. Another proof of maturity - the one you were giving to me lessons of.

Delightful, as I said...
Iokanaan is offline  
Old 02-05-2010, 10:06 PM   #55
Direwolf
Human being with feelings
 
Direwolf's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Dixie
Posts: 29
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Iokanaan View Post

Talking about communism, you should take interests into the take of power of Lenine which started what we wrongly call the "communist" era. He made a revolution, you know, in 1917. And a revolution costs money. An incredible amount of money. Guess where did this money come from... Ohh, let's see, where do those names come from : Wall Street, the Rockefeller. OMG. America isn't it (God bless, am I correct ?) ?

Talking about racism as you did, are you, personnally, racist enough to consider that the life of 3000 American people are more valuable than the one of the million or Irak citizens (including 500 000 children) that the economic embargo entailed in 10 years or the other million of people that your "war against terror" entailed ? I would be very glad to have your answer, because I find you guys making far far...blah blah blah...far less noise for them than for your own people.
These are flat out lies. Show me the proof. You can't. If you're getting your "facts" from Chomsky and his ilk, you're no different from him! 1917? Do you have any idea what America was doing in 1917? We were supplying England and France with equipment to fight the Germans and gearing up to enter the war. America wasn't thought of as a world power until after WWI. Your claims of Americans funding the Bolsheviks is horse shit and you have no proof of it.

Speaking of that, how much did it cost America to save France twice? How much did it cost America to keep South Korea free? How much did it cost to try to keep South Viet Nam free? How many Cambodians died at the hands of the communists after we left Viet Nam? How many would have starved at the hands of the communists if we hadn't made the Berlin Air drops in '61? How many genocides have been averted because the fear of American intervention was imminent? America isn't perfect but we've done more good in this world than we are ever given credit for. Always remember this: whenever you need us, we'll be there. I know the opposite isn't true.

As for American imperialism remember this, pal, the only land we ever asked from France was enough to bury our war dead.
__________________
Semper Fi,
Doc
Direwolf is offline  
Old 02-05-2010, 10:34 PM   #56
Direwolf
Human being with feelings
 
Direwolf's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Dixie
Posts: 29
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lokasenna View Post
First off, atomic weapons are nuclear weapons. There is no difference unless you're thinking of thermonuclear weapons, which are no more different than a Blu-Ray disc and a DVD. Same concept, bigger bang.

Secondly, agreed, though at this point I don't entirely remember why I dislike him.

Thirdly, when is America going to start this policing? I currently see two wars in the Middle East that America started over American interests, and any number of conflicts that really DO need some outside help where the Americans are either nowhere to be seen or not doing any more than anyone else.
The "bigger bang" was what I meant. The bombs used in WWII were very crude when compared to what are built now.

As for America starting wars, we didn't start them. We were attacked. We went after the taliban who was harboring the al qaida leadership in Afghanistan. Iraq was harboring and allowing al qaida to set up training camps inside her borders. Hussein was funding terrorism and did have wmd at one point, evidenced by his gassing of the Kurds, and maintained that he still had them and would use them. I guess lying about that was his downfall. Tough shit, I won't shed any tears for him.

At any rate, why don't other countries take the lead in stopping some of the problems in the world? Why didn't Spain lead the charge in Darfur? Why didn't Canada lead the rescue operation for the tsunami? Why didn't France send a flotilla to the Philippines for the Mt. Pinatubo eruption? I'll tell you why. They know America will do it and they can sit at home and call us imperialists. I do wish we would let everybody take care of their own damn problems but it always comes back to us being the bad guys anyway. So until somebody else can and will do it better, I guess the world is stuck with the terrible Americans.
__________________
Semper Fi,
Doc

Last edited by Direwolf; 02-05-2010 at 10:51 PM.
Direwolf is offline  
Old 02-05-2010, 11:32 PM   #57
Lokasenna
Human being with feelings
 
Lokasenna's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Calgary, AB, Canada
Posts: 6,551
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Direwolf View Post
As for America starting wars, we didn't start them. We were attacked. We went after the taliban who was harboring the al qaida leadership in Afghanistan. Iraq was harboring and allowing al qaida to set up training camps inside her borders. Hussein was funding terrorism and did have wmd at one point, evidenced by his gassing of the Kurds, and maintained that he still had them and would use them. I guess lying about that was his downfall. Tough shit, I won't shed any tears for him.
You mean the same Al Qaeda that the US funded and trained in the first place, and the Hussein that the US put in power?

Maybe you wouldn't have had those problems if America was a little less involved in other countries' affairs back in the seventies. Seems only fair that you should be the ones fixing them.

Quote:
At any rate, why don't other countries take the lead in stopping some of the problems in the world? Why didn't Spain lead the charge in Darfur? Why didn't Canada lead the rescue operation for the tsunami? Why didn't France send a flotilla to the Philippines for the Mt. Pinatubo eruption?
I don't think the US is any better or worse than the rest of the world in that respect. Nobody led the charge in Darfur, and pretty much everyone piles in for disasters like the tsunami and Pinatubo. Plus, you know, when there are two American bases next door to the volcano, I think it's reasonable to expect that they might spearhead any relief effort.

Quote:
I'll tell you why. They know America will do it and they can sit at home and call us imperialists. I do wish we would let everybody take care of their own damn problems but it always comes back to us being the bad guys anyway. So until somebody else can and will do it better, I guess the world is stuck with the terrible Americans.
I think there's a pretty fine line between "everyone else expects us to do it, so we do" and "everyone else knows we're going to insist on being in charge, so we do it". Both are probably correct.

It'd be nice if countries were left to deal with their own problems, but a lot of these problems will never be dealt with that way. Hell, many of them aren't dealt with even with ten other countries in there holding the place together. Unless we're prepared to let a few hundred thousand people die in order to teach these governments a lesson, it's not going to happen.
__________________
I'm no longer using Reaper or working on scripts for it. Sorry. :(
Default 5.0 Nitpicky Edition / GUI library for Lua scripts / Theory Helper / Radial Menu / Donate

Last edited by Lokasenna; 02-06-2010 at 11:51 AM.
Lokasenna is offline  
Old 02-06-2010, 04:45 AM   #58
Iokanaan
Human being with feelings
 
Iokanaan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Nemours (Paris), France
Posts: 260
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Direwolf View Post
These are flat out lies. Show me the proof. [...] America wasn't thought of as a world power until after WWI. Your claims of Americans funding the Bolsheviks is horse shit and you have no proof of it.
Look for "the Red Symphonia", pal, among other sources. You will see that true History is not the one you've been told.

For the rest, I did not talk about America as a Nation I talked about Wall Street. Wall Street is not your Nation. Only the financial power that rules it entirely since one century. which does not impeach that whenever something comes from Wall Street (which was the case of this bolchevik revolution whose aim was to put down the tzarist regime whichh was a threat for their interest), it comes from America.

For the rest, if you REALLY believe that there is just one single gram of humanitarian motivations and solidarity in the foreign policy of your country when the administrators take the decisions to intervene in the outside world whatever they do, if you believe that there is not a single choice that is not made for the single and only reason of the interests of America, you are one of the most naive people I've met for a long time. The people who fight on the ground, I'm absolutely sure that some of them do it for ethical purposes. But the ones above who take the decision, if you belive that humanity has an inch of place in their political choices, I'm sorry Pal, but you are living in a Walt Disney fiction. Get down on earth - where there is dirt and mud and shit. They do "good" things if it goes in the direction of their interests, they do "bad" things if it goes into the direction of their interests. What is the common point between these two propositions ? their interests. Nothing more.

How gigantic is the nationalist propaganda implemented into your mind ! Terrifying ! Really ! And not astonishing that is it THAT simle to sell you a sordid war as it's been the case in Irak, Afghanistan - and as it will be tomorrow with Iran.

I'm sorry but there are some very good and solid reasons why you are freaking the rest of the world out !
Iokanaan is offline  
Old 02-06-2010, 06:48 PM   #59
Direwolf
Human being with feelings
 
Direwolf's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Dixie
Posts: 29
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Iokanaan View Post
Look for "the Red Symphonia", pal, among other sources. You will see that true History is not the one you've been told.

For the rest, I did not talk about America as a Nation I talked about Wall Street. Wall Street is not your Nation. Only the financial power that rules it entirely since one century. which does not impeach that whenever something comes from Wall Street (which was the case of this bolchevik revolution whose aim was to put down the tzarist regime whichh was a threat for their interest), it comes from America.

For the rest, if you REALLY believe that there is just one single gram of humanitarian motivations and solidarity in the foreign policy of your country when the administrators take the decisions to intervene in the outside world whatever they do, if you believe that there is not a single choice that is not made for the single and only reason of the interests of America, you are one of the most naive people I've met for a long time. The people who fight on the ground, I'm absolutely sure that some of them do it for ethical purposes. But the ones above who take the decision, if you belive that humanity has an inch of place in their political choices, I'm sorry Pal, but you are living in a Walt Disney fiction. Get down on earth - where there is dirt and mud and shit. They do "good" things if it goes in the direction of their interests, they do "bad" things if it goes into the direction of their interests. What is the common point between these two propositions ? their interests. Nothing more.

How gigantic is the nationalist propaganda implemented into your mind ! Terrifying ! Really ! And not astonishing that is it THAT simle to sell you a sordid war as it's been the case in Irak, Afghanistan - and as it will be tomorrow with Iran.

I'm sorry but there are some very good and solid reasons why you are freaking the rest of the world out !
Whatever, you know it all.
__________________
Semper Fi,
Doc
Direwolf is offline  
Old 02-06-2010, 11:55 PM   #60
nikar
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 327
Default

I am not anti American and I do get bored with rants lately.

Having said that I grew up in New Zealand when we dared to go no nukes and got absolutely rubbished by the Americans for daring to say please dont bring your ships into our ports if they have nuclear weapons onboard. Outcries about whether we could still be seen as allies, cutting off of all military exercises, threats of reduced trade etc. (Despite America still maintaing an echelon spy base here to keep an eye on the pacific and New Zealanders, including commercial information).

I think some of the long winded rants are over the top and excessive, but it is refreshing to see a more even playing field in the last decade where countries are not so willing to be bullied or at least the credibilty of those in power in America has dissapeared and other countries are less willing to believe everything they are told and fall into line without valid reason.

This is of course not aimed at every day Americans, I have numerous good friends from that part of the world and understand, its a big country with a lot of diverse opinions. There do seem to be issues with the political system that has meant that money talks and the same leaders with the same agendas seem to buy their way to the top just with different faces, but from what I see lately many Americans are becoming more aware of this and hopefully things will change. I think it will be an uphill battle though as those with the money and power dont like change.
nikar is offline  
Old 02-11-2010, 09:18 PM   #61
Attic
Human being with feelings
 
Attic's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: California
Posts: 67
Default Iokanaan your an idiot

Iokanaan your an idiot its not America that's the problem you stupid moron its large corporations and banks that are the problem. Also don't use these words "fuck you assholes" my kids read these pages.

Try using language that is less offensive Like Your a lame Retard witch you are.
__________________
North Bay Music Attic
D. Prouty
designworxs@gmail.com
Attic is offline  
Old 02-12-2010, 06:06 AM   #62
Iokanaan
Human being with feelings
 
Iokanaan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Nemours (Paris), France
Posts: 260
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Attic View Post
its not America that's the problem you stupid moron its large corporations and banks that are the problem.
You're right. But when they sell to you the concept of wars for freedom by the intermediary who are the politicians (in fact, their employees), do you throw at their face tomatoes or do you applause ? When they sell to you that the Palestinians are the bad guys and the "terrorists" in the Middle East and that Israel only conquers and illegally occupies territories FOR 40 YEARS NOW, IF NOT 60 to defend itself - while in fact what is happening there today is exactly what happened in your country with native indians centuries ago, remember pal ? - do you throw tomatoes at their face or do you applause ?

And when it is known and proven worldwide that a president of yours has lied about ADM that did not exist to make a war for fucking oil (I don't car if you don't like my language I don't like your foreign political manners - two rude ways to express oneself - but my language does not kill anyone), a war for oil that did cost the life of MILLIONS of innocent people (read me well, you who dare to treat me an idiot, MILLIONS, not 3 thousands like during the 911 for which you did put the world in fire, MILLIONS, with barbarian torture of people there), and when there is another presidential election after this, while all this is well known, what do you do, as a people, do you kick his ass off the presidency because you're a moral people with values and self reflection or do you arrogantly and triumphantly RE-RELECT him ?

I'm listening to your clever answer. Please enlighten my idiocy with your wisdom. So tell me...

Here are their plans. you're right. But here is also your responsability, as a people. without your consent, there is no plan of them. With your complicity - which means, with your guilt - they can exist. This is their New World Order. Can you tell me any country in this world where this order is as advanced and working as in your ?

Think about it before taking great proud airs. Put yourself into question before giving lessons of intelligence to the entire world. You call me an idiot - and pretend to be the clever one. I would have liked to see you clever when bombs where daily blood-shedding in Irak.

I know there are absolutely great people in America. but each one of them is able of frank and solid criticism of their country. And none of them has half of your arrogance.

Last edited by Iokanaan; 02-12-2010 at 09:28 AM.
Iokanaan is offline  
Old 02-13-2010, 05:37 AM   #63
Attic
Human being with feelings
 
Attic's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: California
Posts: 67
Default Is Iokanaan an Idiot or did he forget to take his meds?

Idiot "I don't car" is not proper English and while we are speaking of cars My guess is you own a car, buy oil and gas, so that makes you a hypocrite. I hope that the next flight you take they do an anal check on your ass because your so uptight your eyes are brown. There are many good people in this country hoping that people like you fail to blow up planes. I'm sure if you got a bomb the chances are high you would blow yourself up as you are retarded, and its called Irac .... Also ..... responsability is spelled responsibility.
__________________
North Bay Music Attic
D. Prouty
designworxs@gmail.com
Attic is offline  
Old 02-13-2010, 05:21 PM   #64
Iokanaan
Human being with feelings
 
Iokanaan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Nemours (Paris), France
Posts: 260
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Attic View Post
Idiot "I don't car" is not proper English.
You're pathetic. If you're reduced to notice the typing and language faults to try and give your position a value, it shows perfectly well how the other means have failed. Btw, come and speak French with me, just to laugh. I don't speak perfectly your language while it's not my native one ? At least I speak it... Come and play on my playground just to laugh.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Attic View Post
My guess is you own a car, buy oil and gas, so that makes you a hypocrite.
This is not the beginning of a logical and developed argument.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Attic View Post
I hope that the next flight you take they do an anal check on your ass because your so uptight your eyes are brown.
Why not ? It could be fun...
More seriously, is it really worth to comment such a sentence ? Idiot is what you called me, right ? So clever is what you pretend to be, is that right ? Delightful... By the way, it's "you are" or "you're" in "proper English" as you call it. Before giving lessons of that kind, the first thing is to make sure that your own expression would not suffer any criticism.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Attic View Post
There are many good people in this country hoping that people like you fail to blow up planes.
Disagreeing with you and not giving one's voice to the global chord singing how your Nation is powerful and great and how America is the supreme good necessarily means to be a terrorist ? Wahow. Could you be more a caricature ? If I had to make a caricature of a stupid guy from the US, I would not even DARE to put such words in his mouth, saying to myself "Oh no, this is too much, it will not be credible !"

Quote:
Originally Posted by Attic View Post
and its called Irac .... Also ..... responsability is spelled responsibility.
no it's Iraq. With a Q. Caught in your own game. Delightful...

If this is all you have to bring to the debate, sorry, I'm off.

Last edited by Iokanaan; 02-13-2010 at 06:42 PM.
Iokanaan is offline  
Old 02-14-2010, 09:22 PM   #65
Simple Simon
Human being with feelings
 
Simple Simon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: New Zealand
Posts: 186
Default

There won't be peace in this world until there is peace (simple mutual respect in the face of differences of perspective) in online forums and talkback radio.
Simple Simon is offline  
Old 02-15-2010, 03:44 AM   #66
Iokanaan
Human being with feelings
 
Iokanaan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Nemours (Paris), France
Posts: 260
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Simple Simon View Post
There won't be peace in this world until there is peace (simple mutual respect in the face of differences of perspective) in online forums and talkback radio.
I agree... And I recognize and accept my part of responsibility in that.
Iokanaan is offline  
Old 02-15-2010, 04:01 AM   #67
Attic
Human being with feelings
 
Attic's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: California
Posts: 67
Default Iokanaan

I found this free album download http://www.hgsounds.com/shop/neu-world-order
its not goth but has a message on the corporate apparatus that you might like. Its free and might be something you could relate to. Americans are tired of the world spewing hate at us so it makes me less than reasonable at times. I also think your website http://www.liturgyofdecay.com/ is graphically great. Simple Simon is right so here is my view, the Corporations are the problem and they are international entities not american they have bought our senators and we are fighting for our freedoms. So you asked if I could "tell you any country in this world where this order is as advanced and working as in ours?" and my answer is yes it is the country with the oldest banks and the most of them.
__________________
North Bay Music Attic
D. Prouty
designworxs@gmail.com
Attic is offline  
Old 02-15-2010, 05:30 PM   #68
Iokanaan
Human being with feelings
 
Iokanaan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Nemours (Paris), France
Posts: 260
Default

Thank you for your message, Attic - and for your kindness. what a pleasure to communicate in such words... And I know I am responsIble ( )for the other tone we did use.

One thing that should be clear. There is no hate in my words towards America. Anger against a certain part of its modern history. but for me, America, is the Nation of the best and the worst. Really. In the same measure. And in the best and the worst there is the best. And I mean it. I believe your nation and culture is like youth. Sometimes it lacks of wisdom and distance which may lead it to terrible mistakes. But also, youth is alive, youth is energy, creativity - things that we sometimes lack so much in our old rusted lady Europe. I do sincerely admire your Nation for what I find admirable into it - as I am sincerely angry sometimes. But in any way that I find you wrong, I always see you only as people who make mistakes and who are manipulated. And I try - probably in a bad way - to make some of you aware of it. That's all.

Anyway, all this to say : nothing like hate. Just anger sometimes.
For the country into which the baning system is the older, which one are you thinking about ? England ?
Iokanaan is offline  
Old 02-15-2010, 05:54 PM   #69
foweler
Human being with feelings
 
foweler's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 1,528
Default

I am an American and proud of it, of all of the good things our system of free enterprise has brought to the world, despite the huge efforts to kill the freedom in free enterprise that have been made for over 200 years.

I love America.
That said I no longer am brainwashed into equating America with the US govt.
America is the land, the people and the will and spirit of liberty, not the power hungry men and the apparatus of the all consuming state.
Such a shame the will to keep that spirit of liberty alive is evaporating, where it isn't being twisted into something polar opposite of its true meaning that is.

Our govt, both parties, is the most evil force on the planet. Poking its nose where it doesn't belong under the cover of the lie of trying to help all while pillaging and plundering for the gain the cooperate interests that create and maintain our "men of power". Even the so called anti-capitalist politicians are owned by these corporations . Look at how many former Goldman Sachs officers are currently on Obama's cabinet. Look at how the so called, anti war liberals pick up the torch and continue the murdering. Look at how the liberal peace activists all but disappeared as soon as they got their man in.

And most importantly, look at how neither left nor right will address the question of why "they" hate us in terms of the history of our foreign policy. No one will touch it. No connecting the dots here. No putting themselves in the position of those who we have first starved and then bombed, expecting them to revolt (when we wouldn't ourselves), and asking themselves "Would I feel like committing violence under those conditions?"
The answer, yes, was clear enough by our response to 911. We didn't even need sanctions lobbied on us, starving us and bringing disease to get that pissed did we? Only one hit in one town and off we go.

Its all a scam, both left and right. I want liberty back and I want to mind our own business except for the purposes of mutually beneficial, non coerced trade with the rest of the world.
At the very least, I want the Republic we were promised under The Articles Of Confederation before they were subverted by the easily circumvented Constitution. At most something even less intrusive.

If we, as it was said earlier, hadn't acted in 1917 do you know what the outcome would have been?
The years long standoff in the trenches had left both sides broke and broken. They were just about to call it quits and go back home, leaving the map largely unchanged. Our entry into that war shifted the balance of power (more than our arms shipments had already) and led to the humiliating and economically devastating Treaty of Versailles. The conditions this subjected Germany to led directly to the rise of Hitler, another "bailout" we like to rub in Europe's face. Our actions created the man. Our bankers financed him, as well as Stalin.

What effect did Wilson's war have on the US? It created an excuse for nationalizing the private sector in compact with the govt (out in broad daylight, unlike the usually sneaky relationships). It began the roots the deceptive view that war could bring economic stimulus. Although the nationalization receded it was back with a vengeance in the 30's, with most of the same guys in charge of the various departments. Hoover and Roosevelt both embraced the concept of a "War on Poverty", the first in so many horrible conceptual "Wars on X" that we would watch (those paying attention anyway) erode that very liberty that used to define us.
History, more importantly, accurate history IS every bit as important as current events as they are shaped by it.

More often than not, the right answer is to do NOTHING. Especially when everyone is in a panic screaming "we have to do something".

Bailout anyone?
foweler is offline  
Old 02-16-2010, 10:19 AM   #70
Attic
Human being with feelings
 
Attic's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: California
Posts: 67
Default Iokanaan the answer isnt that easy I think.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Iokanaan View Post
For the country into which the baning system is the older, which one are you thinking about ? England ?
Well I guess I left that a little open ended, because I don't know, but I think it may have spread from England and Sweden. I am still trying to figure out who is who in the top 3 percent world wide. England and Sweden equate yet you have a whole other thing with the middle east and world wide corporate oil powers and also if you look at where the so called elite are educated it seems there is a lot of cross polinization of where the major power brokers get theirs at and what country and institution they end up working from. At any rate most countries have elite who are involved and contribute to the overall crisis.

The Bank of England (BOE) was founded in 1694, and despite its name is the central bank of the entire United Kingdom. It is the second oldest central bank in the world, behind only Sweden's Riksbank, which was founded in 1654.

Moscow has an inordinate amount of questionable wealthy at this time in history and you could say the same for Texas. So witch country is most at fault I don't think that is the way to look at it in a Global economy where someone could call England Moscow and Texas home and live and work from any of them. What you can say is that there are clusters of evil and the real way to pin point the fight is to find out where the money travels.
__________________
North Bay Music Attic
D. Prouty
designworxs@gmail.com
Attic is offline  
Old 02-16-2010, 06:37 PM   #71
Iokanaan
Human being with feelings
 
Iokanaan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Nemours (Paris), France
Posts: 260
Default

@ Foweler.

Just thank you. Sincerely.
Iokanaan is offline  
Old 02-16-2010, 06:47 PM   #72
Iokanaan
Human being with feelings
 
Iokanaan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Nemours (Paris), France
Posts: 260
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Attic View Post
What you can say is that there are clusters of evil and the real way to pin point the fight is to find out where the money travels.
I think the best way to fight is to try to create a world of our own based on other rules, to make things exist apart from their system.

And also to refuse to believe in what they want us to believe, to obstruct the flow of their agenda by not giving the agreement they would like to see us give to them...
Iokanaan is offline  
Old 02-17-2010, 05:25 AM   #73
Attic
Human being with feelings
 
Attic's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: California
Posts: 67
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Iokanaan View Post
I think the best way to fight is to try to create a world of our own based on other rules, to make things exist apart from their system.

And also to refuse to believe in what they want us to believe, to obstruct the flow of their agenda by not giving the agreement they would like to see us give to them...
Ideally that would be great, but people here don't agree with them and there is no change, people obstruct but everything stays the same. I marched in San Francisco against bush and the war ... thousands of us did .... Guess what No change. How do you replace the system. The media is owned by them so how do you move a message with any impact, that gets people to act in concert and even if you could get them to act would it change anything as it is very hard to get a large body of people to agree on anything.

I think that the battle is to hold Corporations responsible for their impact on families, health, environment, and moral values and to hit them where it hurts in the pocket book.

Today I went to the gas station and used my debit card to buy 5 dollars of gas, then went to a store to buy some bread for my kids lunch's they refused the card. It turns out that Chevron puts a 100 dollar hold on your bank account if you have less than 99.00 dollars in it and the hold typically lasts 3 to 4 days. So to buy 5 dollars of gas you must at least have 100 in your account or you must wait 3 to 4 days to be cleared with your bank for your own money to be used by you. Well my kids needed lunch so I went to the Chevron gas station they told me nothing we can do about it, its your banks fault so I went to the bank they said nothing we can do about it, its chevrons fault so I call chevrons public relations they put me on with a guy in India who tells me I am so sorry but there is nothing we can do about it, at least the guy from India said I'm sorry.

The truth is that you can fight the system but fighting it and doing it successfully are two different things.

I will tell you something Americans would fight if we knew it would work, but I don't think anything short of a full on Civil War would make a difference, and you cant have one of those if you don't know who is really responsible. The top 1 percent hide behind their money... topple one power and they buy a new one so where does the money really go?

Did you know they just made it legal in the United States for Corporations to spend unlimited amounts of money on political campaigns. Think of what that one thing will do to all of you and us .... Americans.
__________________
North Bay Music Attic
D. Prouty
designworxs@gmail.com
Attic is offline  
Old 02-17-2010, 09:20 AM   #74
foweler
Human being with feelings
 
foweler's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 1,528
Default

The answer is more choice. You should NOT have chosen Chevron in this case. I hope you choose a competitor next time.

Of course the number of REAL choices are few and dwindling every day. This bailout business had the effect of saving a few large banks while huge numbers of smaller ones disappear. The small one are exactly the ones we need to survive. Give the average guy a choice between someone "too big to care" or someone with a vested interest in providing him service and where is he going to go?

Our original govt concept was just that. Small states and a very weak Federal structure. The states free to set laws and policies as they choose. If you don't like they way one state rolls, vote with your feet and move to one you do like. Like minded people would tend to collect together, reinforcing solidarity of that state.

With a strong fed (and moving towards a global govt) all the laws and polices are the same everywhere. Nowhere to run. "If you don't like it you can change it" they say but you always end up with 49% of the people unhappy.

Lincoln, later justified by a false concern about the slavery issue (read his writings before that famous 4 score speech to see how he really felt), set the precedent that states cannot dissolve their voluntary contract with the Union. They tried and the most horrific actions the US had ever committed were the result and they were so fired up about it they used the bloodthirsty General Sherman's momentum afterward to wipe out the native peoples of this land. Policies even more draconian than were imposed by the British crown became the norm and haven't been removed. It was all about tariffs, not slavery, and it began the move towards the huge fed and states having their laws dictated to them and their monies seized and then ransomed back to them in the form of federal funding should they agree to federal policy.

And we built a Roman style monument housing a god like statue of the man!


Anyway, the answer will always be MORE CHOICE.
The 10th Amendment movement http://www.tenthamendmentcenter.com/ is gaining a lot of support. Many states are ignoring Federal laws, at their peril, turning down Federal ransom money and rattling their sabers about possible succession from the US.
That seems like the only way we are going to get more choice but it could end up something like 1861. I would prefer something more like the breakup of the USSR.

Give me the choice to vote with my feet, you can keep your polls and ballots.
foweler is offline  
Old 02-17-2010, 10:51 AM   #75
telekaster
Human being with feelings
 
telekaster's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Idaho
Posts: 58
Default

As a History teacher I can tell you that the Articles of confederation just didn't work. each state set up the railways with different guage tracks so goods couldn't flow without massive costs...money could not be printed as each state had it's own currency creating a monetary system that would not work. we had no way to deal with international trade with no consistent money system...it was basically regional anarchy....it just doesn't work....

cheers
telekaster
__________________
you can be happy or you can be miserable...the amount of work is the same!
www.motagator.net/slackwater
telekaster is offline  
Old 02-17-2010, 04:56 PM   #76
foweler
Human being with feelings
 
foweler's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 1,528
Default

In doing the due diligence of continuing self education that I'm sure you do to make sure that nothing might of got by you (or slipped to you) in grad school, have you noticed any recurring themes in history? American or otherwise?

Its true Lincoln's Union standardized the rails and that greatly aided their dominance over the Confederates. If cotton parachutes (bad analogy-too heavy) had been the deciding factor at that moment in time things might have been different.

I wholly agree that the Articles, or any document will never be enough to stop tyrannical machinations. The spirit of liberty isn't captured in a document any more than the road is captured in a map or the muse captured in a score.

The distrust of power clearly presented in the Articles began evaporating almost before the ink was dry. By the time 1787 rolled around only the anti-federalists seemed to remember what they were trying to chain down with the original document.

What you are calling anarchy has worked itself out in numerous situations worldwide since then. Do individual nations interact regardless of differing currencies or units of measure. Hell, look at the tunnel under the English channel. They figured out how to accommodate right and left driving didn't they. Was it one homogeneous "State" that did this or two independent but interrelated bodies?
What is the difference between that and any other collection of small, independent groups operating together?

Did the govt or private industry standardize the components on the computer you are currently using?

Yes Apple took one approach and the PC concept went another way. Apple people historically tended to be those who just wanted someone else to make it work for them, even if it cost twice as much. PC people tended to be those who wanted choice, even if that meant doing their homework and taking risks that they might buy a piece of incompatible hardware. The reward, when it worked, was lower prices and greater customization. Easier (cheaper) service in the event of equipment failure. There is always a price for letting others handle your "consumer protection" for you.
But eventually, over time and without govt stepping in and "setting standards" those risks declined. Today you can cobble together almost any combination of parts and it will work, if you are paying at least a little bit of attention to what you are doing. That's business interests coming to an agreement through the market process.

Last edited by foweler; 02-17-2010 at 05:18 PM.
foweler is offline  
Old 02-18-2010, 10:40 AM   #77
telekaster
Human being with feelings
 
telekaster's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Idaho
Posts: 58
Default

Interesting angle Foweler....but the intent IMHO of the articles or the constitution was UNITED STATES not another European continent. If it had been that direction Great Britain was chomping at the bit to come back and take over the new world again (ie:war of 1812)....but it was this united front of STATES that solidified our stance against Britain. If we had continued as a set of independant countries I don't believe we would have risen as a world power. What has Europe done over the last couple of decaded? moved in the direction of unification of states with currency and trade. HMMM sound familiar? Fun discussion tho and I'm not going to change your view and vise versa but fun anyway.

cheers
telekaster
__________________
you can be happy or you can be miserable...the amount of work is the same!
www.motagator.net/slackwater
telekaster is offline  
Old 02-18-2010, 01:08 PM   #78
Attic
Human being with feelings
 
Attic's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: California
Posts: 67
Default I thought this was interesting and decided to share it here.

New York Times history lesson on civilian control of the military: Why now?

On Monday the New York Times ran a column on the historical origins of civilian control of the military.

Contributing author John R. Miller—a fellow at the conservative Discovery Institute—attributed it to a speech George Washington, then commanding the American armies in the Revolutionary War, gave in 1783 to officers disgruntled over lack of pay. Reading a letter from a Congressman to 500 near-mutinous officers gathered in Newburgh, New York, Washington put on spectacles and said, “Gentlemen, you must pardon me, for I have grown not only gray but blind in the service of my country.” The officers were moved, and a military revolt against the young government was averted, according to Miller.

Why did the Times run a column on the subject now? For whom was this history lesson intended?

For most of US history, the principle of military subordination to elected government has been accepted without comment—except in the two instances where its assertion was the most controversial: Abraham Lincoln’s sacking of General George McClellan in the Civil War, and Harry Truman’s dismissal of General Douglas MacArthur during the Korean War.

Especially noteworthy are the column’s opening and closing passages, which clearly refer to the present. “Civilian control of the military is a cherished principle in American government,” Miller writes. “It was President Obama who decided to increase our involvement in Afghanistan, and it is Congress that will decide whether to appropriate the money to carry out his decision. It is the president and Congress, not the military, that will decide whether our laws should be changed to allow gays and lesbians to serve in our armed forces. The military advises, but the civilian leadership decides.”

Having told the story of Washington at Newburgh, Miller begins his last paragraph with a stark warning: “But powerful armies often make their own rules, and many nations have succumbed to military control despite strong constitutions.”

The Times’ decision to run this comment must be seen in light of the growing power of the military-intelligence apparatus and its increasingly open role in US political life. This power has grown immeasurably since 1961, when President Dwight Eisenhower warned of the threat to democracy posed by the “military-industrial complex” whose “total influence,” even then, was “felt in every city, every Statehouse, every office of the Federal government.”

Evidence of the growing power and impunity of the military and spy agencies abounds:

• January 27 Congressional testimony from State Department Under Secretary Patrick Kennedy implied that the Flight 253 bomber, Umar Farouk Abdulmutallab, boarded his Christmas Day flight from Amsterdam to Detroit with the complicity of one or more US intelligence agencies. It has also been revealed that US spy agencies had Abdulmutallab’s name, knowledge that an attack organized in Yemen was likely to take place on December 25, and warnings from British intelligence and even the young man’s own father.

No one in any US spy agency has been held accountable for what, according to the official version of events, is an inexplicable breakdown of the most expensive and expansive intelligence system in the world; Kennedy’s revelations have been subjected to a media blackout. A more plausible explanation is that powerful elements inside the state thought an attack, failed or otherwise, might be used to destabilize the US government. [“Why the media silence on the Flight 253 bombing hearings?”]

•In the months leading up to his announced surge in Afghanistan, sources within the US military close to generals Stanley McChrystal, US commander in Afghanistan, and David Petraeus, head of the US Central Command, maintained a steady stream of leaks in a frankly acknowledged bid to shift US policy on Afghanistan. McChrystal openly campaigned for an expansion of forces close to what Obama eventually ordered—a campaign supported by prominent members of the Republican Party.

• Last year, after the court-ordered release of Bush Justice Department memos that created a pseudolegal rationale for torture of “terror suspects” prompted widespread calls for investigations, former Vice President Dick Cheney mounted a public attack on the Obama administration. Since then, intelligence agencies and the military have, through press leaks and statements from allied political figures like Cheney, mounted a full-throated defense of torture and other antidemocratic aspects of the “war on terror.”

• In July 2009, it came to light that House and Senate intelligence committees were kept in the dark for eight years about a “secret counter-terrorism program” overseen by Cheney. Obama’s Central Intelligence Agency (CIA) director, Leon Panetta, only learned of the program months after taking control of the CIA. The Los Angeles Times reported that the program “went beyond the widely publicized warrantless wiretapping program...encompassing additional secretive activities that created ‘unprecedented’ spying powers.”

• On April 27, 2009, one of two Air Force One planes—the Boeing 747s used by the US president—flew at low altitude over New York City escorted by fighter jets. Officials absurdly claimed the operation was necessary to get a picture of Air Force One against the backdrop of the Statue of Liberty. The flight, which provoked panic in Manhattan, took place without the knowledge of Obama or New York City mayor Michael Bloomberg. [“What happened in the skies over New York City?”]

• After his inauguration, Obama left largely untouched the US military command and high-ranking personnel in the main spy agencies, while promoting generals to top civilian positions and maintaining Bush’s defense Secretary, Robert Gates, in the same position. Done in the name of “continuity,” these personnel decisions illustrated Obama’s contempt for the popular hostility to the Bush administration’s war policies that underlay his election.

• In September 2007 it was revealed that a nuclear-armed B-52 bomber had flown over the US without authorization.

• After the September 11, 2001 terrorist attacks on New York City and Washington D.C., Cheney initiated and headed a program called “Continuity of Government” that created a secret government in an “undisclosed, secure location,” where he subsequently spent much of his time. The shadow government was drawn entirely from the executive branch, the military, and spy agencies. Elected members of Congress were not included and were unaware of its creation. Whether or not the shadow government has been disbanded is unclear.

• There remains no credible explanation for the 9/11 attacks. As in the Flight 253 bomb plot, not a single member of the US intelligence agencies ostensibly responsible for protecting the American people has been held accountable for what is, if the official version of events is accepted, the greatest domestic security failure in US history—an event seized upon to launch the invasions of Afghanistan and Iraq, and unprecedented attacks on basic democratic rights.

• In the disputed 2000 presidential election, which the Supreme Court handed to George W. Bush by ordering a halt to ballot counting in Florida, Al Gore conceded defeat amid fears of opposition from the military, which the Republican Party openly courted during the struggle over election results. A source close to Gore said he “got very stuck on the notion that if he became president it was not in the national interest that he have a relationship characterized by his mistrust of the military.”

Commenting on these and similar comments attributed to Gore, the World Socialist Web Site noted “they amount to the acceptance of a military veto over the outcome of a national election and the occupant of the White House. The subordination of the military to civilian rule is a cardinal principle of the US Constitution. The fact that this cornerstone of democracy has become so eroded is a stark indication of the decay of bourgeois democratic institutions in the US.” [“New York Times documents military role in theft of 2000 election”]

This list, which could be much longer, is the context in which the Times’ history lesson on civilian control of the military appears.

In fact, Monday’s column is the newspaper’s second reference in recent weeks to fears of the dangers posed to civilian rule by the military and intelligence agencies.

The first was more oblique. A January 23 article, “Gates Sees Fallout From Troubled Ties With Pakistan,” covered a recent trip to Pakistan by Defense Secretary Robert Gates and concluded with the following line: “His final message delivered, he relaxed on the 14-hour trip home by watching ‘Seven Days in May,’ the Cold War-era film about an attempted military coup in the United States.”

Given the growing assertiveness and impunity of the security apparatus, it seems unlikely that the decision to disclose this piece of information was gratuitous.
__________________
North Bay Music Attic
D. Prouty
designworxs@gmail.com
Attic is offline  
Old 02-18-2010, 01:20 PM   #79
Attic
Human being with feelings
 
Attic's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: California
Posts: 67
Default Iokanaan what do you think.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Iokanaan View Post
For the country into which the baning system is the older, which one are you thinking about ? England ?
How about Germany, Austria and Sweden.

Take a look at this article.
http://www.wsws.org/articles/2010/fe...pers-f18.shtml

I would be curious what you thoughts are on this from the perspective of someone living closer to these countries then I.
__________________
North Bay Music Attic
D. Prouty
designworxs@gmail.com
Attic is offline  
Old 02-18-2010, 02:35 PM   #80
Attic
Human being with feelings
 
Attic's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: California
Posts: 67
Default Or it is America.

Iokanaan......"For the country into which the baning system is the older, which one are you thinking about ? England ?"

It may well be the United States, after reading one particular article the link posted below.

However I encourage you to continue to separate the corporate agendas from the average Americans as we are for the most part not responsible for their actions.

================================================== ==========================

I encourage you to take the time to read this as it well describes the difference between the corporate elite and working Americans two completely apposed institutions.

http://www.wsws.org/articles/2009/ma...dnor-m26.shtml

================================================== ==========================
"The American ruling class. It will do anything to protect its wealth and privileges. the American ruling class has acquired the characteristics of a decadent aristocracy. Self-obsessed and narcissistic, it seems utterly impervious to the feelings and sentiments of that portion of society that is compelled to work for a living.

The chasm between the promises of the election year and the reality of government policy is becoming more evident each day. As the need for action becomes ever more urgent, the working class will lose its patience with purely rhetorical and empty invocations of "change."
================================================== ==========================
__________________
North Bay Music Attic
D. Prouty
designworxs@gmail.com
Attic is offline  
 

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 03:44 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions Inc.