Old 09-04-2006, 04:42 AM   #1
manning1
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Default let me define what is a bar.

i hilite a piece of track..and tell reaper..this is my bar.
the grid lines and bar numbers then reflect this.
in the bars/beats/ticks arena....this would simplify things a bit. if navigator could also reflect this...and let me copy
and paste by drawing my mouse across and down....that would be nice.
ie...hiliting whole sections of a song.
eg.....ive got a great B section of a song and i want to copy and paste it somewhere else.
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Old 09-04-2006, 08:31 AM   #2
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But then you'd always end up working with odd ball tempo like 123.4593645 bpm. Bad for when you have project with both audio and MIDI.

Sorry, but I don't want this at all, it's like working totally backward to me. I'd rather Justing spent his time on making a tap tempo feature which could read audio. You know what tempo a song you're playing is at, you often just don't know the bpm value, so just tap the tempo, Reaper returns the value of, say, 147.889; then set the project tempo to 148 bpm, set a click and play to that. You have to play to tempo anyway, I don't think it would make any difference playing to 148 instead of 147.889...

The only point I see where it could be helpfull is if you were working with an already recorded song that you wanted to find the tempo of; but even then it just seems easier to me to just have the song play and tap the tempo in than trying to analyze the wave form for it's bar pattern.

Last edited by bullshark; 09-04-2006 at 08:39 AM.
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Old 09-04-2006, 10:31 AM   #3
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i would love to have an option to switch this beats display to the same used in cubase ... don't know, if this has anything to to with this request ...
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Old 09-04-2006, 10:32 AM   #4
manning1
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yeh maybe tap tempo might work for me.
i see your point.
i just have to be carefull cos sometimes in the past sticking to a rigid bpm ive found has made a song too rigid.
within the bars structure.
i'm trying a new way on a new song i'm working on.
as follows....
1. tap a scuzzy mic and record an audio beat.
2. calc the resulting bpm
3. set rpr to the bpm.
shark...i'm trying to be open minded.
but when i posted about this in gen discussion...
there were a number of folks who felt i had a vaild point.
apparently samp has this feature.
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Old 09-04-2006, 11:08 AM   #5
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I'm not trying to be difficult manning, it's just that I haven't read anything yet to convince me of the value of this, while I can see loads of problems (mostly related to odd tempo which can be the only result of such a method, I'll give you that). Say you end up with a tempo of 123.446 bpm; then you load a vst compositional aid like Phrazor or eXT which round this number to 123 (I don't know if they do, just a supposition), well, it could slowly but surely drift out of time with the rest of the song; same with using external score editor which, to my knowledge, round everything up.

I just think it makes life easier working in even tempo and I don't think the difference in fraction of bpm makes enough of a difference to affect the "feel" of any song. That's why I think it's best to set it before recording than to try and match it after, hence my suggestion, long ago, of an audio tap tempo feature with rounding capability.

All that said, I just realised where both yours and my point of view can connect. Record your tap, select a range for 4 of those (if your playing in 4/4) and click "this is my bar"; then it would just be a matter of removing the tap from the timeline, set the tempo to the nearest full value and you're ready to go. Mmm, not that bad an idea after all...
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Old 09-04-2006, 12:52 PM   #6
manning1
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shark...
oh ok....i see where your going with this.
makes sense.
i see your point re other external software.
and why one needs to round to nearest bpm.
yep...thinking about it your correct.
round to nearest bpm.
i have another pkge with tap tempo.
gonna try it your way in a new song i'm about to start.
for giggles...lol....a la 1940/50's crooner style...lol.
complete with sloppy timing n' see if it works.
then i'll bring the clik into reaper.
and do the song.
you see the prob i always have is when timing is "loose"
rather than rigid.
but i'll give it a crack on this new song.
good ideas.
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Old 09-04-2006, 02:57 PM   #7
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+1 for tap tempo setting project tempo
+1 for tap tempo setting tempo marker
+1 for "extract tempo from selection" inserting tempo marker
+1 for a high-resolution slider setting project or marker tempo

I don't see "extract tempo from selection" and "tap tempo" as exclusive at all. They are two ways of entering a tempo value, like dragging a slider with a mouse or typing a number.

First, I think that precise (i.e. decimal) tempos are necessary. If you want a piece of music to come out a specific length, you need fractional tempos. If you want smooth changes, you need fractional tempos. If you have to put sync to a live group, you will probably need fractional tempos, and many of them. Rounding to the nearest BPM isn't good enough, nor is tapping a single tempo, unless the players recorded to a metronome in the first place.

As a MIDI composer, my tempos vary all over the place, more like film music than dance music. As a performance music composer, I do less of this, but some, and bands do more live. Not all MIDI composers vary tempo (most electronica does not), but some do. Likewise with audio recording, lots of music uses one tempo, or a few stepwise changes, but some varies tempo a lot.

And what's wrong with oddball tempos anyways? I developed sort of a cringe reflex in the '80's to 120.000 BPM, and haven't really gotten over it.

As I see "extract tempo" working, it figures out whatever tempo makes the selection the required number of bars, and inserts a tempo change at the beginning of a selection. This way, if you had a piece where every bar was different, you could just step through it: select a bar or a consistent-sounding range, mark it, and move on. People who didn't need the function would never have to deal with it - you can set tempos a number of other ways.

If "extract tempo from selection" tries to set the PROJECT tempo, there will be trouble if the selection doesn't start at the beginning of the timeline.

Granted, VST/DX plugins that do things with tempo are going to be affected by varying tempos - oh, well. If this sort of VST is a big part of your song, don't vary tempos, and if varying tempos is important, don't use those plugins. Or use them, and take advantage of their confusion. VST plugins *can* get tempo information from the host, including varying tempo - if they don't do it right, whose problem is it?
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Old 09-04-2006, 03:43 PM   #8
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Ok, fair enough. At least we agree that some sort of tempo attribution method is needed.

Here's what I propose:

Right click on the tempo box.

3 options.

a)normal (which would be default)
b)from loop selection
c)from incoming audio

(Notice that there's no new buttons added anywhere.)
-Normal would be like now.

-From loop selection would need a pop-up box asking how many bars in the selection, input the numbers, click ok, tempo box goes back to normal but with new tempo reflected.

-From incoming audio; you need a track armed to record. Tap your foot, or strum your guitar or hit that kick drum...whatever. Reaper analyze the incoming sound and derive tempo from it while reflecting the changes in the tempo box. when done, right click the tempo box and choose "normal".

No automatic rounding of numbers necessary as that can be easily done by hand. Sounds reasonable?
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Old 09-04-2006, 04:23 PM   #9
manning1
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wow shark...
me likey that incoming audio idea.
+100 from moi.
you know chaps...and i can see your point spon...
i TOO got fed up with 80's bpm's.
obviously this is quite a complex issue where i dont think anyone of us is in error.
its just a diversity of needs.

i mean ...look at something like gershwins wonderfull rhapsody in blue...its very hard to make something like that follow a rigid beat. and i think it would spoil it if it were done today in a daw rigid approach. in some respects maybe the classical genre is a whole different animal and in many pieces difficult to match to rigidity.

tough issue this. not sure if a solution is doable to keep everyone happy.
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Old 09-04-2006, 08:04 PM   #10
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bullshark:

It needs to work for tempo markers as well as the project tempo, especially if you're using it to tempo-map something that doesn't keep metronome time.

I don't use the "project tempo". I regard it as the default setting for new tempo markers, and assume there's an invisible marker at the beginning of the song. If you insert one tempo change, the invisible one becomes visible also. So for setting tempo, I'm usually looking at markers and/or the click track and not at the project tempo, except for recording the occasional instant inspiration.

I'd also have the options show up when right-clicking on a tempo marker or the project tempo control.

ultimately I'd like to be able to set the tempo...

by entering a tempo number, with decimals
by entering a number of millisecond per measure
by sliding a metronome/tempo slider
by tapping on a button
by timing incoming MIDI commands
by computation from the length of an audio or MIDI clip
by computation from the desired ending point in minutes/seconds by analysis from pulses in a MIDI clip
by analysis/tweaking from pulses in an audio clip
by computation from an external clock, MIDI or VST

and they all should be able to insert a tempo/timesig marker with the appropriate tempo. Not greedy, am I?
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Old 09-05-2006, 09:10 AM   #11
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Greedy? Not really 'caus if you think about it, most of what you need would be achieved with the 3 simple options I suggested above your post.

For instance, input of tempo number by decimal is already there, I never suggested to take out feature, of course.

Or millisecomnd by measure? Use the loop selection input box to define a loop area of x milliseconds, then choose option "b" of my suggestion.

Audio input option could be extended by "input" only and could calculate tempo by MIDI data input as well as audio transient.

...and so on and so forth.

This is something I'd really like to have in Reaper, and IMO, the way I suggested would be very versatile without adding an inch of bloat to the application interface.

Last edited by bullshark; 09-05-2006 at 09:12 AM.
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Old 09-06-2006, 11:46 PM   #12
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Just a bump in case it passed under Justin's radar.

I'm surprised that there's no more comments on this... Tempo is, after all, the very foundation of music without which there would be nothing to record.
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Old 09-07-2006, 12:00 AM   #13
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I will experiment with some ideas on this.. could be really cool though I agree =)
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Old 09-16-2006, 10:15 PM   #14
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Hey, manning, you've got your wish. Cool.
(but I didn't get mine, as always...)
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Old 09-17-2006, 12:54 AM   #15
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I just tried this, and it's really really cool. It's very much like how I use the "warp" feature in cubase to line up the grid to a live recording. Works a beauty. In fact, it's better than cubase, because having the tempo map as an envelope in the main view is much better.

Congratulations, it's a first and a best all wrapped in one.

*buys a round*
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