08-21-2018, 09:28 AM | #41 | ||
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Another alternative would possibly be to add the usb device in the same manner with zita-a2j, it does have a high quality resampling algorithm and might very well serve well for recording toms and room mics. Quote:
I can imagine the disconnect between the full and the thin sound, that would have bugged the hell out of me too.
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08-21-2018, 09:40 AM | #42 | |
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The misery with usb soundcards on Linux is that there are no drivers, just the generic class 2.0 audio specification that adds alot of latency. I do believe that most windows users actually have the same issue as most card manufacturers don't bother doing as RME did... What might be better on Windows in this respect is that they have somewhat of a driver that at least can report a more or less accurate latency back to reaper. On Linux Reaper only knows about the latency that can be calculated with the following formula. Buffersize X Periods / samplerate * 1000 (gives the result in ms), while the actual latency will be higher due to the delay of of sending audio through the USB bus. PCI and FW cards are much lower latency than USB on Linux (as they probably are on windows and osx too for most cards).
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08-21-2018, 09:50 AM | #43 | |
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Would be interesting to see if there is a pattern to how much out of sync they are during multiple tries. Mind you this is only a wild guess as I've never heard of this before and I've never studied the subject.
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08-21-2018, 09:50 AM | #44 | |
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That said, when someone does it right (RME in this case), USB is clearly capable of real-world workloads. PCI can beat it but in my experience of just "getting on with the job" so to speak, I don't notice the fact that my RME USB/Firewire isn't PCI even when recording 24 simultaneous tracks over USB2.
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08-21-2018, 09:56 AM | #45 | |
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Based on that and IME, the variance isn't that huge but it is somewhat of a random race condition and enough to be concerned about phase issues on sources that may be sensitive to it. I've always avoided by keeping those sources on the same device but it can also be solved like Glenn does by finding a way to "mark and shift" after the fact; but since it varies, we can't set and forget it. That's all I know though as I've never dug into the internals. It bugs me mentally, but my methodology makes it something I rarely actually have to deal with.
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08-21-2018, 10:28 AM | #46 | |
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Or who knows, maybe there actually is a reason to buy a high end clock like a big ben or similar. As a matter of interest with what hardware have you seen this? I'm gonna run some tests with my RME and ADAT converters when I get home to see what I can discover. I hate stuff like this... I'll let you in on a small secret.. With USB on Linux (but I've heard of this from Windows users too), each time you connect to the soundcard you might get a slightly different latency. The difference is not great, maybe +- 20 samples. What is somewhat worse is that the bigger the buffersize the bigger the hidden latency is, and at 1024 samples it is really significant... What is important when recording is to tell reaper to compensate for the big "hidden" latency so that newly recorded tracks are aligned with the playback tracks, but if you want to get anal about it, you'd better do a loopback test each time you start up reaper, as otherwise you might be +-20 samples off perfect alignment.. I am much more satisfied with my HDSP card as there the hidden latency is exactly 95 samples, no matter what the buffer size is. It's composed of 32 samples of hardware buffer in each direction and 15/16 samples for the conversion itself. As a somewhat nerd, things like this gives me a stomach ache and I always wonder why so many things are so crappily implemented. It's like the designers say this is good enough, let's sell it, instead of going the extra mile to make sure that things actually work as one would expect..:S
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08-21-2018, 10:36 AM | #47 | ||
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Thanks for the heads up, I'll keep an eye on it in case I'm overlooking something or maybe what I'm speaking of isn't directly related.
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08-21-2018, 10:53 AM | #48 | |||
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Mint, Ubuntu, Manjaro, Arch, and AVLinux. I was trying out different versions to be my primary desktop for everything except REAPER. My plan was to use this dual boot setup so I could still boot to Windows to run REAPER, but then I downloaded the Linux version of REAPER! |
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08-21-2018, 11:07 AM | #49 | |
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I've only been recording real acoustic drums again for about a year, so I never had any issues using V-Drums and Superior Drummer, but then I bought a little Ludwig Breakbeats kit and started trying to mic it up for recording. Sometimes I'd record with them and they'd sound great, and then the next project like they were in a phone booth or something. I still may pop for one of those Behringer UMC1820 units. They are only $250, and I have several things I could easily trade in and get the price more like $100. |
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08-21-2018, 11:26 AM | #50 | |
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I don't think you have to worry at all with rme, unless if you switch to linux, then I'd forgo using class compliant USB and use FW if it's supported by alsa or ffado. I think one problem is that we are mixing a few subjects together in this discussion and it's difficult to be precise with words when writing posts on a forum. It's not like we are academics discussing a topic in an academic setting spending days or weeks writing accurate essays Edit: You can use reainsert to do a loopback test too. I'd be interested to know if it agrees with your results and gives a 0 samples adjustment after you've configured reapers recording settings with the right values.
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08-21-2018, 12:01 PM | #51 | |||
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08-21-2018, 12:59 PM | #52 | |
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I record with a X32 and do all the monitoring through it's onboard FX. This means that I can run it at 1024 samples buffer with no problems. The only thing I really have to pay attention to, is to measure the round trip latency and configure reaper to account for the hidden latency. This is to make sure that the newly recorded tracks line up properly with the already recorded material. You also have the added advantage to have your M-Audio devices, which means that you could record drums monitoring through the Behringer at high latency, and then switch to your M-Audio for real low latency monitoring through FX when recording guitar and bass. Then add your softsynths still running at low latency. I think you're gonna be happy with Linux, especially once you get all the plugins you need running. We're already in a good place with Reaper, U-he, LinVst, etc. Things can only improve from here on! BTW, Repro-5 is a seriously good sounding prophet emulation, there are also quite a few totally free Linux synths that are very high quality! Still I'm very curious to hear if that .asoundrc works out for you! If you copy that to your home dir and start jack (or reaper) you ought to have a new device that combines the 2 cards into one. That without rebooting it will be there for the next program that you start. Same to remove it, just delete the file and it's gone. Doesn't change your system in any way what so ever.
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08-21-2018, 04:35 PM | #53 | |||
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08-21-2018, 05:10 PM | #54 | ||||
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It will probably come down to getting one of those wild hair moments, which is how I got my Ludwig drums. All of sudden one day I found myself wheeling and dealing on the phone, and before the day was out, ended up with a brand new in the box set of Ludwig drums without spending any money at all. Spent a lot of time and energy though cleaning up the drums I was trading in to look showroom new, carting them across town, and then haggling for thirty or forty minutes to finally trade even for the other kit. Quote:
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I'm holding back on trying to install the real full version of Kontakt, because I don't want to create licensing issues that might screw my working registered version up in Windows. I also have not tried to install Waves DBX160, Lexicon Native MPX Reverb, Soundtoys Little Plate, Arturia Minimoog, Toontrack EZ-Keys, and a few others that employ copy protection that might blow a gasket. Toontrack stuff I'm confident will work, as I already installed EZ-Drummer successfully. It was another one I am not currently using or have installed in Windows, so I wasn't worried about it possibly invalidating my license. The ones I suspect will be the most difficult to eventually get functioning in Linux will be the few that employ PACE copy protection. I have an iLok with multiple activations, but I doubt that the PACE software needed to use it will fly in Wine. Quote:
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08-21-2018, 05:24 PM | #55 | |
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================================================== ============================ jackdmp 1.9.12 Copyright 2001-2005 Paul Davis and others. Copyright 2004-2016 Grame. Copyright 2016-2017 Filipe Coelho. jackdmp comes with ABSOLUTELY NO WARRANTY This is free software, and you are welcome to redistribute it under certain conditions; see the file COPYING for details no message buffer overruns no message buffer overruns no message buffer overruns JACK server starting in realtime mode with priority 10 self-connect-mode is "Don't restrict self connect requests" audio_reservation_init Acquire audio card Audio2 creating alsa driver ... hw:M2496,0|hw:M2496,0|128|2|44100|0|0|nomon|swmete r|-|32bit configuring for 44100Hz, period = 128 frames (2.9 ms), buffer = 2 periods ALSA: final selected sample format for capture: 32bit integer little-endian ALSA: use 2 periods for capture ALSA: final selected sample format for playback: 32bit integer little-endian ALSA: use 2 periods for playback port created: Midi-Through:midi/playback_1 port created: Midi-Through:midi/capture_1 port created: M-Audio-Audiophile-24/96:midi/playback_1 port created: M-Audio-Audiophile-24/96:midi/capture_1 port created: M-Audio-Audiophile-24/96:midi/playback_1 port created: M-Audio-Audiophile-24/96:midi/capture_1 ================================================== ============================ It still doesn't make the second card accessible in REAPER though. I also tried modifying the .asoundsrc file so that the referenced names in it at the top and bottom were M2496, but that didn't make any difference either. Last edited by Glennbo; 08-21-2018 at 06:07 PM. |
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08-21-2018, 07:59 PM | #56 |
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Waves Central does work or it used to work until someone made a Wine cmd.exe patch that broke it in Wine Staging 3.12 and there has been a patch submitted but it missed Wine 3.14 so Waves Central has been broken in Wine Staging 3.12, Wine Staging 3.13 and Wine Staging 3.14.
I don't know if it would help as I havn't got Kontakt and others wouold know more about it but I think that if the dvd's are dual PC/Mac (like the old Pro Tools dvd's) then the unhide option might be needed. For all NI iso files they need to be mounted using udf and the unhide option. sudo mount -t udf file.iso -o unhide /mnt run winecfg and check the Drives tab for a windows drive letter associated with /mnt cd /mnt and run the installer (wine setup.exe) To unmount the iso change to a drirectory away from /mnt and then sudo umount /mnt |
08-22-2018, 12:16 AM | #57 | ||
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Edit: For installing NI, you might have to change directory to the DVD before running the installer. Another tip, when trying to install Waves, it might be smart to create a new account and install a few demo licenses, so that you are sure that it works before you try with one of your genuine licenses, would be bad for them to vanish into the digital ether...
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08-22-2018, 12:30 AM | #58 | |
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Back to the drawing board then I'll see if I can't figure out something on my laptop to try the above. The problem is I'm not at home and have limited hardware to test with. Please confirm something for me. Can you confirm that "/usr/bin/jackd -R -dalsa -dhw:M2496 -r44100 -p128 -n2 -Xseq" starts JACK on the primary card, and "/usr/bin/jackd -R -dalsa -dhw:M2496_1 -r44100 -p128 -n2 -Xseq" on the secondary card?
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08-22-2018, 08:49 AM | #59 | |
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Thanks! I'll give this a try in a while. It would be great if I could get this piece of software to go, as it is not installed on the Windows side of the house, and does have some (although limited) great sounds from the full Kontakt library. |
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08-22-2018, 08:57 AM | #60 |
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Hah, got it!
Try this in ~/.asoundrc Code:
pcm.Multi { type multi; slaves.a.pcm hw:M2496 slaves.a.channels 2; slaves.b.pcm hw:M2496_1 slaves.b.channels 2; bindings.0.slave a; bindings.0.channel 0; bindings.1.slave a; bindings.1.channel 1; bindings.2.slave b; bindings.2.channel 0; bindings.3.slave b; bindings.3.channel 1; } ctl.Multi { type hw card M2496 } And if that doesn't work, try: Code:
pcm.Multi { type multi; slaves.a.pcm hw:1 slaves.a.channels 2; slaves.b.pcm hw:3 slaves.b.channels 2; bindings.0.slave a; bindings.0.channel 0; bindings.1.slave a; bindings.1.channel 1; bindings.2.slave b; bindings.2.channel 0; bindings.3.slave b; bindings.3.channel 1; } ctl.Multi { type hw card 1 } The first version would be the preferred one. If it works you should be able to put the command line back into the reaper prefs.
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08-22-2018, 09:00 AM | #61 | |
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I'm going to try installing Native Instruments Komplete Elements again in a while using the mount command that osxmidi posted on my real physical store bought DVD. I did try installing it yesterday from a Wine CMD prompt, logged onto the drive letter Wine knows the CD/DVD drive as. It still threw out the can't find my disk message. |
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08-22-2018, 09:05 AM | #62 | |
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08-22-2018, 09:12 AM | #63 | ||
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Both variations of the newest .asoundrc generated the following. jackdmp 1.9.12 Copyright 2001-2005 Paul Davis and others. Copyright 2004-2016 Grame. Copyright 2016-2017 Filipe Coelho. jackdmp comes with ABSOLUTELY NO WARRANTY This is free software, and you are welcome to redistribute it under certain conditions; see the file COPYING for details no message buffer overruns no message buffer overruns no message buffer overruns JACK server starting in realtime mode with priority 80 self-connect-mode is "Don't restrict self connect requests" audio_reservation_init Acquire audio card Audio1 creating alsa driver ... Multi|Multi|64|2|44100|0|0|nomon|swmeter|-|32bit ALSA: Cannot open PCM device alsa_pcm for playback. Falling back to capture-only mode Released audio card Audio1 audio_reservation_finish Cannot initialize driver JackServer::Open failed with -1 Failed to open server |
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08-22-2018, 09:15 AM | #64 | |
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sudo mount -t udf file.iso -o unhide /mnt Which came back with this: mount: /mnt: special device file.iso does not exist. |
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08-22-2018, 09:55 AM | #65 |
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Grumble, but I have a few more suggestions
It's good that you can use M2496 & M2496_1 to access the cards. Please use hw:M2496 and hw:M2496_1 instead of hw:1 and hw:3 from now on. both for jack and for a2j-bridge. The reason for this is that the index can change, especially when you add usb devices to the mix. Normally it shouldn't with PCI cards, but it's just a safer practice.
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08-22-2018, 10:02 AM | #66 | |
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Try this instead, insert the disk and wait for it to automount, then unmount it. Code:
sudo mount -t udf /dev/sr0 -o unhide /mnt cd /tmp wine setup.exe and setup.exe with the actual name of the installer.
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08-22-2018, 10:03 AM | #67 |
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Regarding the failed ~/.asoundrc attempt, you did note the missing 'hw:' part in the jack command line right?
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08-22-2018, 10:17 AM | #68 | |
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0 [MID ]: HDA-Intel - HDA Intel MID - HDA Intel MID at 0xf9ff8000 irq 32 1 [NVidia ]: HDA-Intel - HDA NVidia - HDA NVidia at 0xfbcfc000 irq 17 2 [M2496 ]: ICE1712 - M Audio Audiophile 24/96 - M Audio Audiophile 24/96 at 0xec00, irq 16 3 [M2496_1 ]: ICE1712 - M Audio Audiophile 24/96 - M Audio Audiophile 24/96 at 0xe400, irq 17 |
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08-22-2018, 10:31 AM | #69 | |
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There is a way to bind a device to an index, maybe we can do that some day. I don't think M2496 and M2496_1 will ever change place, AFAIK they get sorted on the PCI address. So if you consistently refer to them as hw:M2496 and hw:M2496_1 you ought to avoid all hassles with this "issue". But if one day you have the kick/snare on the OH tracks and vice versa, then you know what happened I could investigate if there is some way to assign index based on the card type and pci address, it might be possible but I've never come across it.
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08-22-2018, 11:09 AM | #70 | |
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08-22-2018, 11:10 AM | #71 | |
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control open "hw:Multi" (No such device) Cannot initialize driver I also tried it with all lower case multi and got the same message. |
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08-22-2018, 11:25 AM | #72 |
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What I meant is that it needs to be without the hw: part. Thought maybe you just changed the Name and didn't see that I left out hw:. I lost quite a lot of time due to making that mistake myself today
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08-22-2018, 11:28 AM | #73 |
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Congratulations! I think it took me weeks to figure that out when I got my Komplete 8 many years ago..
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08-22-2018, 11:41 AM | #74 | |
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Had to do a wine cmd, and then log onto e: in a command prompt. From there it was just type the extremely long name for the installer and away it went. Thanks for the help on this one. I'd have never found the commands to make a dual format DVD all visible, looking through search engines. So how do I back this entire copy of Linux up so I can restore it onto larger media? I'm down to 7.2GB of space after installing all this cool stuff I wasn't expecting to ever install. When I set my machine up dual boot a couple months ago I bought a 250GB Samsung EVO and made two partitions on it. I only gave 30GB to Linux because my plan was to keep all REAPER stuff in Windows only. Things have changed now, and while I don't anticipate installing anything else now that I have Komplete Elements up and running, but 7.2GB feels like being painted into a corner. Windows would hate it, but Linux hasn't barked once about it so far. |
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08-22-2018, 11:43 AM | #75 |
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Let's try this one then.
Code:
pcm.Multi { type multi; slaves.a.pcm "hw:M2496"; slaves.a.channels 2; slaves.b.pcm "hw:M2496_1"; slaves.b.channels 2; bindings.0.slave a; bindings.0.channel 0; bindings.1.slave a; bindings.1.channel 1; bindings.2.slave b; bindings.2.channel 0; bindings.3.slave b; bindings.3.channel 1; } ctl.Multi { type hw; card "M2496"; } pcm.M-Audio { type route; slave.pcm "Multi"; slave.channels 4; ttable.0.0 1; ttable.1.1 1; ttable.2.2 1; ttable.3.3 1; } ctl.M-Audio { type hw; card "M2496"; }
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08-22-2018, 11:56 AM | #76 | |
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jackdmp 1.9.12 Copyright 2001-2005 Paul Davis and others. Copyright 2004-2016 Grame. Copyright 2016-2017 Filipe Coelho. jackdmp comes with ABSOLUTELY NO WARRANTY This is free software, and you are welcome to redistribute it under certain conditions; see the file COPYING for details no message buffer overruns no message buffer overruns no message buffer overruns JACK server starting in realtime mode with priority 80 self-connect-mode is "Don't restrict self connect requests" audio_reservation_init Acquire audio card Audio0 creating alsa driver ... M-Audio|M-Audio|64|2|44100|0|0|nomon|swmeter|-|32bit configuring for 44100Hz, period = 64 frames (1.5 ms), buffer = 2 periods ALSA: no playback configurations available (Invalid argument) ALSA: cannot configure capture channel Released audio card Audio0 audio_reservation_finish Cannot initialize driver JackServer::Open failed with -1 Failed to open server |
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08-22-2018, 12:20 PM | #77 | ||
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If just cloning the Linux partition onto another one, I'd use rsync:https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php...system_cloning This program is great. You can do nearly anything with it. If you are moving your Linux install to a new sdd, I'd create a couple of small partitions to install the OS into and the rest to keep your user data in. Mine is basically setup with a smallish partition for / (root), a small partition for swap, and most of the disk dedicated to ~ (the home dir). In addition I have a couple of partition to use for /, so I can have a backup in case something goes wrong updating the distro, or to install other distros in. Like that I can easily check some distro out and still have all my data available. You could also alternatively connect another sdd, use rsync to clone your ~ to the new disk, delete the old ~, and finally mount the new disk in /home/yourusername. Like that you keep the install and have the entire disk available for data. There are so many ways to do this, that it's hard to give advice.. There is also gparted and other programs that could shrink your windows partition and increase your linux partition. But this might be dangerous and I'm not very comfortable recommending it. I managed to kill a windows7 install once like that. For linux that would be no problem, but windows can be finicky about it...
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Reaper for Linux Documentation (WIP). Software: Archlinux/KDE, Fabfilter FX, Komplete 8, Nebula, Schwa/Stillwell, T-racks Max/Amplitube/SVX, etc. Gear: i7-2600k/4700HQ/16GB, RME Multiface/Babyface, Behringer X32, Genelec 8040, etc. :) |
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08-22-2018, 12:39 PM | #78 | |
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I would *like* to steal some space from Windows by shrinking the volume, and then let gparted grow the Linux volume, but my gut tells me that's too risky for even my blood. I'll probably grab another 250GB EVO somewhere down the line and just clone the Linux side to it, then let Windows have back the 30GB I stole from it to install Linux. |
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08-22-2018, 01:59 PM | #79 | |
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I'm on vacation and working on some other things, and when I get bored I have a look at the linux forum and maybe post something. In fact this is one of the better threads and full of useful information for people new to this. It also illustrates how a couple of changes can take you from being unable to use windows vsts at medium latency to make it work at low latency. It also serves to collect my thoughts in preparation of giving the wiki an overhaul, but writing that kind of documentation is something I don't really enjoy very much, at least not until it's finished Think I'm gonna make this thread a sticky until there is better material available. Though I'll concede temporary defeat. The problem is that I'm not very well versed in this kind of stuff. The ALSA userspace configuration is super powerful but also somewhat of an acquired taste. It's easy to make a mistake and it's hard to know the ins and outs of it if one haven't spent a lot of time doing it. This is the first time I've tried to do something like this, but I managed to combine my onboard with the rme babyface I have available here, so it's somewhat galling that I can't make it work for you too.. Could you please provide me with the output of alsa-info.sh? If you don't have that program installed, the package is called alsa-util. That'll give me a lot of information about your system. Do remove the .asoundrc first.
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Reaper for Linux Documentation (WIP). Software: Archlinux/KDE, Fabfilter FX, Komplete 8, Nebula, Schwa/Stillwell, T-racks Max/Amplitube/SVX, etc. Gear: i7-2600k/4700HQ/16GB, RME Multiface/Babyface, Behringer X32, Genelec 8040, etc. :) |
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08-22-2018, 02:46 PM | #80 | |
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I'd do stuff like read a record from a data file, write parts of it out as a script combined with some additional commands, run the script, check a directory to see if something downloaded, open whatever it downloaded and read that until some magic string is found, then parse everything else out until you get some single element value, open the database again and then write this fabulous result to the record you started with, and so on. Somewhat like building a digital Rube Goldberg contraption. |
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