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04-27-2020, 08:58 AM
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#1
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jul 2018
Location: Pizza Hut
Posts: 284
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Most difficult instrument to mix
For you, is it a drum item, vocals, bass guitar... ?
I'll go ahead and say 1-synths and 2-bass in general (hard to HEAR the bass instrument, and not just its presence).
It seems synths are just... selfish, antisocial bastards. It's no wonder they appear in carefully selected places in popular songs, but whether they're in the background playing chords or a melody in the front, they seem to conflict with some other instrument, they just have to pick a fight with somebody; like it's much easier mixing rhythm guitars than mixing background synths.
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04-27-2020, 10:03 AM
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#2
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jan 2014
Posts: 5,205
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Tap dancers
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04-27-2020, 10:33 AM
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#3
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jul 2018
Location: Pizza Hut
Posts: 284
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fergler
Tap dancers
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they're uhm... they're difficult to mix, are they ?
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04-27-2020, 10:34 AM
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#4
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Harrisburg, PA USA
Posts: 1,481
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The most difficult instrument to mix is one that wasn't recorded properly.
If you're recording live instruments, that could include anything from mic placement to the skill of the performer. If you're recording synthesizers, you should consider modifying some of the settings to get more of the sound you want without having it take over the mix. In either case, you should be considering the arrangement and make sure the instrument is playing something conducive to the whole. If it's grabbing too much attention for a background instrument, consider playing something simpler.
If you get everything recorded properly with an appropriate arrangement, the mixing effort will be much easier and the results will be better. So start at the source.
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We act as though comfort and luxury were the chief requirements of life, when all that we need to make us happy is something to be enthusiastic about.
--Charles Kingsley... or maybe Albert Einstein... definitely somebody wiser than myself--
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04-27-2020, 10:35 AM
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#5
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: UK
Posts: 523
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dork Lard
For you, is it a drum item, vocals, bass guitar... ?
I'll go ahead and say 1-synths and 2-bass in general (hard to HEAR the bass instrument, and not just its presence).
It seems synths are just... selfish, antisocial bastards. It's no wonder they appear in carefully selected places in popular songs, but whether they're in the background playing chords or a melody in the front, they seem to conflict with some other instrument, they just have to pick a fight with somebody; like it's much easier mixing rhythm guitars than mixing background synths.
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It's probably best to just unplug synths, taser them and remove them from the sonic landscape forever....they have taken an almighty dump on me so I no longer care...
*Note to self - always remember humour is not universal
Last edited by prom; 04-27-2020 at 11:28 AM.
Reason: afterthought
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04-27-2020, 11:32 AM
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#6
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Oct 2019
Posts: 1,075
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dork Lard
It seems synths are just... selfish, antisocial bastards. It's no wonder they appear in carefully selected places in popular songs, but whether they're in the background playing chords or a melody in the front, they seem to conflict with some other instrument, they just have to pick a fight with somebody; like it's much easier mixing rhythm guitars than mixing background synths.
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Hypnotize them to make them think they're guitars; they'll be easier to tame.
Seriously, a passage inside an amp sim can make wonders. The matter is, most (modern) synth sounds are larger than life. Every band in the spectrum is present, from rumbling bass to piercing highs, with lots of reverb and delays to top it off.
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04-27-2020, 11:53 AM
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#7
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Norfolk UK
Posts: 1,351
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fergler
Tap dancers
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Hmm, difficult but not impossible.
Now, mime artists, they really are difficult, and so demonstrative.
__________________
Windows 10 Pro. Intel i7 3400ghz. 16GB Ram. Focusrite Scarlett 8i6. Reaper 64.
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04-27-2020, 12:22 PM
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#8
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: near Memphis, TN
Posts: 531
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Many instruments that have a broad frequency range can be tough. Especially with a performance that isn't a part of a good arrangement. Overplaying - is what first came to my mind.
There are some funny answers here. I have to say... I've not mixed tap.
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04-27-2020, 02:11 PM
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#9
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Aug 2014
Posts: 11,044
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tls11823
The most difficult instrument to mix is one that wasn't recorded properly.
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I'd go further up the chain and say the most difficult instrument to mix is the one that is poorly arranged.
It doesn't matter how well an instrument is recorded if the arrangement leads to it competing for frequency real estate with other parts. That is always the biggest battle for me: trying to mix that part that has no room for it.
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04-27-2020, 02:23 PM
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#10
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jul 2018
Location: Pizza Hut
Posts: 284
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tls11823
The most difficult instrument to mix is one that wasn't recorded properly.
If you're recording live instruments, that could include anything from mic placement to the skill of the performer. If you're recording synthesizers, you should consider modifying some of the settings to get more of the sound you want without having it take over the mix. In either case, you should be considering the arrangement and make sure the instrument is playing something conducive to the whole. If it's grabbing too much attention for a background instrument, consider playing something simpler.
If you get everything recorded properly with an appropriate arrangement, the mixing effort will be much easier and the results will be better. So start at the source.
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For sure. I've spent hours so countless it's depressing to even bring up, working on one single mix, thinking if I reviewed it every day for weeks, months... that it would eventually sound satisfying to me in the end, like some studio song. Truth is, it's just simply about the initial quality of what you're handling. But these days soooo much music is being made, that sounds very good, and by amateurs, that use VSTs.
Quote:
Originally Posted by prom
It's probably best to just unplug synths, taser them and remove them from the sonic landscape forever....they have taken an almighty dump on me so I no longer care...
*Note to self - always remember humour is not universal
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Well I do appreciate the humor, but could you tell me a bit about that ? I feel like I'm the only human being in the universe that has this much trouble with synths. All drums, I can do, most guitars, keys are okay... but synths will immediately be trouble for me. Have you actually stopped using them because they were a bitch to mix ?
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04-27-2020, 02:29 PM
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#11
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jul 2018
Location: Pizza Hut
Posts: 284
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Judders
I'd go further up the chain and say the most difficult instrument to mix is the one that is poorly arranged.
It doesn't matter how well an instrument is recorded if the arrangement leads to it competing for frequency real estate with other parts. That is always the biggest battle for me: trying to mix that part that has no room for it.
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The thing is, I've been writing my material on Guitar Pro (4, I hate all the newer versions !!!) for as long as I've been a musician, and in MIDI everything sounds perfect, all the instruments mix really well together, you'd need to have 40 instruments at once for it to start sounding unclear - and I'm only now starting to become more realistic and TRY to think ahead about how the actual instruments are going to sound together in my Reaper session. I'm a composer first, an audio engineer tenth. Or eleventh.
And those synths, man... I think it's because they've got so many important frequencies, like they require the entire space to sound good, they're difficult to use as just one component in a part.
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04-27-2020, 03:35 PM
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#12
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Aug 2014
Posts: 11,044
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dork Lard
The thing is, I've been writing my material on Guitar Pro (4, I hate all the newer versions !!!) for as long as I've been a musician, and in MIDI everything sounds perfect, all the instruments mix really well together, you'd need to have 40 instruments at once for it to start sounding unclear - and I'm only now starting to become more realistic and TRY to think ahead about how the actual instruments are going to sound together in my Reaper session. I'm a composer first, an audio engineer tenth. Or eleventh.
And those synths, man... I think it's because they've got so many important frequencies, like they require the entire space to sound good, they're difficult to use as just one component in a part.
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Those skills are composition! The arrangement, and knowing how that will come together in the final form, is more important than engineering skills.
Lots of synth patches sound great on their own, but like you say have too much going on across the frequency spectrum to play nicely with a lot of other instruments. Think about what the role of each part is, and how they fit together in terms of frequency. Guitars and synths together often provide problems for people, but that is because they are trying to cram too much in limited space. Decide which one is the feature, and which one is the backup. Fix that at the source, too, don't think you can fix it in the mix. That means dialling in the amp tones and synth patch so they fit together right from the start.
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04-27-2020, 04:24 PM
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#13
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: UK
Posts: 523
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dork Lard
Well I do appreciate the humor, but could you tell me a bit about that ? I feel like I'm the only human being in the universe that has this much trouble with synths. All drums, I can do, most guitars, keys are okay... but synths will immediately be trouble for me. Have you actually stopped using them because they were a bitch to mix ?
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No I have not stopped using,I am an addict so as long as I have electricity and a synthesizer I need to go there.The mix requirements are part of the patch.Full spectrum sound capability, so you are presented with a choice problem from the start, unlike for example, grab a cello and start bowing and there it is and it has a certain range and we need a clean workable signal and we already know approximately where and how....we can find these thing a lot less obvious with synthesizer.It depends on your production style as to what you think about this, some want a synth simply to play some chords in a bridge section within a complete track and if that is your requirement then get a fine polysynth instrument and it will fire out some ready programmed delicious tones (like an oberheim for instance)if you can afford this or are a piano player.I am more into exploration ,sometimes..............I get results,I would have prefered a life without a stupid obsession with little or no reward.I struggle with this and life in general but there it is, we are all made a little different, which is lovely.
My advice, be careful with the bass end and be prepared to get savage with the top because it's sometimes blinding and so we don't cut...or not enough.
Maybe useful to set up crossover points with a js splitter?
Last edited by prom; 04-29-2020 at 07:00 AM.
Reason: words
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05-01-2020, 05:33 AM
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#14
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Near Cambridge UK and Near Questembert, France
Posts: 22,754
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Quote:
Originally Posted by prom
My advice, be careful with the bass end and be prepared to get savage with the top because it's sometimes blinding and so we don't cut...or not enough.
Maybe useful to set up crossover points with a js splitter?
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This is so true! When you have a bass drum, a bass, synths and distorted guitar(the hardest to deal with in terms of what the player wants to hear) the bottom end is always the hardest part to get right. I`m still mostly a bass player in my heart & I still have problems with this.
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Ici on parles Franglais
Last edited by ivansc; 05-04-2020 at 05:12 AM.
Reason: MISSED A CRUCIAL WORD OUT
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05-02-2020, 05:59 AM
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#15
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: May 2011
Posts: 2,694
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ivansc
This is so true! When you have a bass drum, a bass, synths and (the hardest to deal with in terms of what the player wants to hear) the bottom end is always the hardest part to get right. I`m still mostly a bass player in my heart & I still have problems with this.
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That is something of a relief to hear TBH. I am not a bass player but find the bottom end always difficult. Many times I think it is lack of a coherent "vision" of how I want things to sound - too low and the bass seems almost irrelevant , too much and it dominates in not a good way etc. That and the problem of getting it to translate to other platforms like domestic hi-fi etc.
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05-02-2020, 01:21 PM
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#16
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Near Cambridge UK and Near Questembert, France
Posts: 22,754
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The biggest problems that I hear in other peoples mixes is when the main guitar part has a really heavily overdriven sound. This gives such a braoad spectrum of sound that it tends to bury everything else apart fdrom the extreme treble end.
One reason why I am not comfortable with people using high gain amps with high gain pickups, especially if overdrive pedals are also in there.
Go listen to a few homebrew tracks on Youtube with distorted guitars and see if you can even hear the bass player, bottom end of the keyboard(s), etc. - and for that matter I have heard guitar players who can even swallow up the bass drum.
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Ici on parles Franglais
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05-03-2020, 12:34 AM
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#17
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jan 2020
Posts: 1,927
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Guitars. They have such complex frequency content.
Mixing a poorly recorded acoustic drum kit can also be a pain in the ass
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05-06-2020, 11:55 PM
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#18
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: Sweden
Posts: 1,206
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Piano, or pipe organ, are among the worst to me. Both of them often have a range from the very bottom to the very top of the frequency landscape, they contain both rhythmical attack and long sustaining notes, and irritatingly often requests full stereo width in a mix. And both of them love long massive reverb too.
They're like having a big fat whale lying themselves down on top of all other instruments, across all aspects of the whole sonic landscape. They just take up so much space and presence in a mix. Unless you make them small and tuck them away somewhere in the mix sounding very different than the instrument does in real life, they're such mix hogs.
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There are only two kinds of people in the world: those who entertain, and those who are absurd.
- Britney Spears
Last edited by Colox; 05-07-2020 at 12:01 AM.
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05-07-2020, 02:48 AM
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#19
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Jazz City
Posts: 5,065
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Has someone - seriously! - mentioned tambourine? It's a nightmare, to mic and to mix. I never seem to get the result I've laid out in my head So simple, yet so complicated.
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Windows 10x64 | AMD Ryzen 3700X | ATI FirePro 2100 | Marian Seraph AD2, 4.3.8 | Yamaha Steinberg MR816x
"If I can hear well, then everything I do is right" (Allen Sides)
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05-07-2020, 09:08 AM
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#20
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Aug 2014
Posts: 11,044
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Quote:
Originally Posted by beingmf
Has someone - seriously! - mentioned tambourine? It's a nightmare, to mic and to mix. I never seem to get the result I've laid out in my head So simple, yet so complicated.
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I find distance from the microphone is the most important factor, though live with the band it's not practical to have a lot of distance from the mic. I've found dynamic mic's to be easier than condensers to fit in a mix, too. Get that midrange response from a '57 without too much sparkle.
I often use a limiter to keep wildly varying peaks in check, and a high mix % with a very short room reverb to tame the transients.
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05-07-2020, 09:39 AM
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#21
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Sep 2010
Posts: 12,557
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Quote:
Originally Posted by beingmf
Has someone - seriously! - mentioned tambourine? It's a nightmare, to mic and to mix. I never seem to get the result I've laid out in my head So simple, yet so complicated.
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That's because a groupie doesn't usually have a very good sense of timing. You're supposed to hand them the tambourine but not actually turn up their mic.
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05-07-2020, 02:42 PM
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#22
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: Sweden
Posts: 1,206
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Quote:
Originally Posted by beingmf
Has someone - seriously! - mentioned tambourine? It's a nightmare, to mic and to mix. I never seem to get the result I've laid out in my head So simple, yet so complicated.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Judders
I find distance from the microphone is the most important factor, /../ I've found dynamic mic's to be easier than condensers to fit in a mix, too. Get that midrange response from a '57 without too much sparkle.
I often use a limiter to keep wildly varying peaks in check, and a high mix % with a very short room reverb to tame the transients.
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Yes, these instruments have a lot of really slicing high end material. They are quiet in volume so the ear kindof gets tricked into thinking they are innocent. They really are not.
It's roughly the same thing with triangle, glockenspiel, crotales and a few other metallic instruments.
Christ I was mad the first times I encountered this. I didn't know what was wrong The mic was 3-4 feet away and the preamp was set 'normally', and yet it was distorting like a mofo. This was recording to tape though, but still. I was so certain it was equipment failure. And then my partner just blurted out " But it works fine on everything else ..?" and I was close to punching him out, I was so mad haha.
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There are only two kinds of people in the world: those who entertain, and those who are absurd.
- Britney Spears
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05-07-2020, 04:30 PM
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#23
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: May 2010
Posts: 4,105
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Most difficult instrument to mix?
Any instrument performing an uninteresting part poorly.
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05-07-2020, 06:36 PM
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#24
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Sep 2010
Posts: 12,557
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So, the lead singer's acoustic guitar part?
How about bells? (Latin cowbells and such.) Basically any and all mics within 50' of a bell player are the bell mics. Timbali get up there too!
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05-08-2020, 01:21 AM
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#25
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Norfolk UK
Posts: 1,351
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__________________
Windows 10 Pro. Intel i7 3400ghz. 16GB Ram. Focusrite Scarlett 8i6. Reaper 64.
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05-09-2020, 01:27 AM
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#26
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Aug 2019
Posts: 395
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I WIN
The "most difficult" in the the unviverse is ....
MY BASS
what do you do whith 36 hz?
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05-09-2020, 01:31 AM
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#27
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Aug 2019
Posts: 395
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my favorite recording technique
Quote:
Originally Posted by serr
That's because a groupie doesn't usually have a very good sense of timing. You're supposed to hand them the tambourine but not actually turn up their mic.
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You obviously possess years of experience
That classified ' trade secret ' stuff though
SIRR
(laugh of the day)
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05-10-2020, 01:33 AM
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#28
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Jazz City
Posts: 5,065
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Colox
The mic was 3-4 feet away and the preamp was set 'normally', and yet it was distorting like a mofo. This was recording to tape though, but still. I was so certain it was equipment failure.
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Oh hell, this reminds me of a jazz recording session in which all the "good" mics were already used - and then, at the end of the second day, I had to mic the "surprise percussionist":
- What are you going to play?
- Bongos, primarily.
- What else?
- Wind chimes.
All that was left was a Behringer condenser which I put close to the bongos and as far away from the wind chimes as possible. The moment he enthusiastically hit the chimes, all I heard in the headphones was a distorted overtone nightmare, and the mic preamp wasn't even in the red. Just that the mic wasn't capable of coping with those nasty frequencies.
Needless to say, I never used a Behringer mic again. And I stay away from wind chimes ever since.
__________________
Windows 10x64 | AMD Ryzen 3700X | ATI FirePro 2100 | Marian Seraph AD2, 4.3.8 | Yamaha Steinberg MR816x
"If I can hear well, then everything I do is right" (Allen Sides)
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05-11-2020, 08:48 AM
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#29
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Near Cambridge UK and Near Questembert, France
Posts: 22,754
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beingmf:
Actually, I have one of their el cheapo measurement mics, which quite surprised me by handling all the spangly stuff quite well when I too ran out of decent mics when recording.
Please note: QUITE!!
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Ici on parles Franglais
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05-11-2020, 09:49 AM
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#30
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Jazz City
Posts: 5,065
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ivansc
beingmf:
Actually, I have one of their el cheapo measurement mics, which quite surprised me by handling all the spangly stuff quite well when I too ran out of decent mics when recording.
Please note: QUITE!!
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If it wasn't so damn noisy!
__________________
Windows 10x64 | AMD Ryzen 3700X | ATI FirePro 2100 | Marian Seraph AD2, 4.3.8 | Yamaha Steinberg MR816x
"If I can hear well, then everything I do is right" (Allen Sides)
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05-12-2020, 01:22 PM
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#31
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Aug 2019
Posts: 395
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GOOD ONE; tamborie,
OFFICIL RUNNER UP
Quote:
Originally Posted by beingmf
Has someone - seriously! - mentioned tambourine? It's a nightmare, to mic and to mix. I never seem to get the result I've laid out in my head So simple, yet so complicated.
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its like 1 frequency width
and sounds equally loud at any fader volue
8- what do you do w 36 hz
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05-14-2020, 09:30 AM
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#32
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Aug 2019
Posts: 395
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doe that eva happen to U tho?
MUSIC IS JUST A DREAM FOR US ALL BRO
i've been 'invited' into about 15 real studio in my entire life
is so fun to extistentially live yr life
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kenny Gioia
Most difficult instrument to mix?
Any instrument performing an uninteresting part poorly.
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u have that problem too - sux
are nt yu 'HOLLYWOOD' u dont do 'studio sessions'
thats where all the fun is; 0
or just the hell of technical perfection maybe
(i like to enjoy mix standards of <%100 )
i dont like stress im hear 2 have funz
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i would be so intrested in that world]
do you have to steal DAVE PENSADOS* clients
i dont have "clients" no one 1 work w has $
whats a day in the life of mr gioia
you dont fk w 'dynamic bannanas spilts i hope
who evs wants to be a technical editor?
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i know a tv edits she HATES hers job so much
its literally "would you like fries" w yr 'ice piots
ten-yr run omg]
i could have the same jobs from xx ys ago (3 mic , 2 tape deck 1 comp
on a mf TASCAM) is 15 button pushes + 22 fader slides w someone counting 4 u for 30 min news show
*sry2mentionthadvl
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